Topic: Tomkins Article - Opinions

[TipTopKop]

I can't see how that would make sense at all. Arsenal have messed up this season but to say it's all part of a plan is complete madness. They have lots of players with big personalities who might look for a move if they don't get CL footy next season. Especially if it looks like they won't get it the season after as well.

Well no, I'm not saying they set out to miss the CL this year on purpose; there's no doubt they've underachieved this season, I just think they may have accepted to take the hit for this season, and the next possibly, knowing that long term will be more stable and solid for them to build on.

It's not completely unrealistic, clubs -like businesses- set out a plan, and it may just be Arsenal's outlook to cruise for a season or 2, and come back with a solid foundation, one not built on billionaire owners nor debts, to attack the league with gate receipts, sponsorship, and merchandise etc.

They may have lots of players with big personalities sure, but not necessarily worth as much (apart from Fabregas, and maybe Adebayor ?), they have let people go, and were still able to take the hit, so I don't know why the fear of an exodus should stop them if they wanted to plan for the future.

[Zeb]

The respect and civility on this thread are great. I disagree with TipTopKop on a lot of points, but I respect his articulate way of putting across his points. Nice one mate.

On Arsenal's finances, failure to qualify for the Champion's League would turn their net profit to a net loss according to their accounts for last year. (37 million profit take off c.30 million for the champion's league and then you have reduced ticket sales to clean out the rest).

Arsenal have 91 million in the bank, 31.5 million they can't spend as that's security for their 'big' 250 million loan (done via bonds and to be paid for another 23 years).

So you're right TipTopKop, they could take the hit this season. However the impact goes beyond just the financial as if they are seen to be slipping too far, will the top young talent be willing to move to Arsenal? As we see with our club, perceptions are sometimes more powerful than truth even when you can define the truth categorically

[royhendo]

Sorry for posting this again but I thought it was relevant to this thread. From a debate on whether Fergie inherited a club in turmoil and whether the comparisons with Rafa hold water.

I know LF disagrees on this as do some others but personally I'd argue that, had George Graham inherited the Man Utd squad at that time and done his 'turn a blind eye' routine with the drinking culture there, they might have won pots in the short-term. Fergie took the difficult path, insisting on professionalism, and they had a fallow period as a result... but now look at them. Patience pays off when you go down that route.

See, I think time has rewritten history to some extent on this front.

Here's a few nuggets from the squad he inherited. They were nowhere near as bad as people suggest nowadays.

Yes, Fergie chose to change the culture, but not long after Fergie's arrival, George Graham inherited a worse culture at Arsenal and used it to his advantage, winning trophies galore... so it's probably truer to say that Fergie went with the long-term option, and the results were a direct reflection of that.

Not only that, we should look at some of the players he bought. This was at a time when they were up there with us doing a syncopated breakage job on the British transfer record.

Inherited Squad

To maybe denote their quality at the time, I've shown whether players went to the World Cup the summer before Fergie arrived.

Goalkeeper...

Gary Bailey
England sub goalkeeper, went to Mexico 86 World Cup.

Defence...

Arthur Albiston
Scotland regular at a time when the competition was fierce, good solid player and pro, went to Mexico 86 World Cup.

Paul McGrath
One of the most talented centre halves of his era, but an alcoholic. Also a good player in midfield. An Ireland stalwart. Would later go to 88 Euro Champs. 

Kevin Moran
Nails centre half and an Ireland international. Would later go to 88 Euro Champs.

John Sivebaek
Wing back. 87 caps for a great Denmark side, went to Mexico 86 World Cup.

Mike Duxbury
Full back. 10 England caps.

Colin Gibson
Full back. Won the league and European Cup with Villa before moving to Man U.


Midfield...

Gordon Strachan
Personality clash with Ferguson aside, a truly superb player. Went to Mexico 86 World Cup.

Bryan Robson
Captain marvel. No questioning his quality. Went to Mexico 86 World Cup.

Jesper Olsen
His signing caused a stir. 43 caps for the same Denmark side as Sivebaek, an exciting player bought from Ajax, and certainly international class. Squared the ball to Cruyff for the famous Ajax penalty. Went to Mexico 86 World Cup.

Strikers...

Norman Whiteside
Was Rooney before Rooney was Rooney. Went to Mexico 86 World Cup.

Frank Stapleton
Ireland stalwart who'd been a top-level striker with Arsenal and Man U for a long time. Would later go to 88 Euro Champs. 

Peter Davenport
Won the league and European Cup with Forest.

---

Hardly a bunch of arse really. Underperforming in Atkinson's last season, yes, but Robson, Strachan, Albiston and Whiteside all had injuries off the back of the World Cup. When they returned, they were quite a side. They'd lost Mark Hughes, which was a big loss to them I think... but still a very solid unit who, with a certain managerial approach, might have been bound into a trophy winning unit... had that route been opted for. We know, of course, that Ferguson took the long-term project route, and refused to tolerate unprofessionalism on any level. Had Graham come in there, you could argue he'd have done things differently, and achieved different results.

---

Anyway, within the first couple of years he made a few good signings and a few not so good signings, but they weren't really progressing.


1987...

£850k on McLair in from Celtic. Having seen him first hand over several seasons north of the border, that was a great signing - he was an excellent player.

£800k on Steve Bruce - good signing.

1988...

£750k on Jim Leighton from Aberdeen. Should have been a great signing, but somehow it went wrong. He was phenomenal for Aberdeen.

£650k on Mal Donaghy from Luton Town - hmmm...

£200k on Lee Sharpe from Torquay - good signing.

£150k on Ralph Milne from Dundee Utd - had been a Robben-esque sensation in Scotland... his career effectively stopped dead in its tracks under Ferguson (I hold a personal grudge against Ferguson for this - he'd have been the perfect counter balance for Davie Cooper on Scotland's right hand side had he been managed properly). Bad signing, but should have been a great one.

1989...

£1.2m on Danny Wallace from Southampton. Meh.

£750k on Mike Phelan from Norwich. Meh.

£1.5m on Neil Webb from Forest. Injuries etc but still... should have been a great signing.

£2.4m on Gary Pallister from Boro - British transfer record. Great signing.

£1m on Paul Ince from West Aaaaam. Great signing.

---

In 1990 they brought in Irwin, then in 91 Giggs came through and they bought Kanchelskis, Parker, and last but not least Schmeichel...

Gradually the squad was filling out, and at around that time we started to implode.

And finally, in 92 the group of young lads started to come through... and then they added Cantona.

In amongst all that, though, there was a fair smattering of dud buys.

---

It's (almost) funny reading this piece from McCarra now.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2005/sep/27/sport.comment

[Zeb]

Sorry for posting this again but I thought it was relevant to this thread. From a debate on whether Fergie inherited a club in turmoil and whether the comparisons with Rafa hold water.

I know LF disagrees on this as do some others but personally I'd argue that, had George Graham inherited the Man Utd squad at that time and done his 'turn a blind eye' routine with the drinking culture there, they might have won pots in the short-term. Fergie took the difficult path, insisting on professionalism, and they had a fallow period as a result... but now look at them. Patience pays off when you go down that route.

I'd question the notion that the squad was as 'unprofessional' as has been painted. At least for the time and for the culture of English football then. Your point about Graham is well made.

In the Level 3 thread, there's some discussion of Taggart's management style, and looking at the squad he inherited I wonder just how many of those players were going to respond to the coming of a 'new messiah' - Strachan perhaps being only the most vocal in his antipathy towards it? Taggart needed time to build a squad of players who would respond to his management style. As is well known, he took a lot of players from St.Mirren to Aberdeen to perhaps shortcut the process there.

Wenger has also now had time to build a squad in his image. The problem is that it's not working. Hansen was right - you can't win anything with a squad of kids. It's a criticism Sacchi has levelled at Arsenal this season too.

Benitez places a lot of emphasis on the 'mentality' of his players. It obviously helps with the team functioning as a unit, but it does take time to accomplish as players with the requisite talent and the requisite mentality are obviously not common. Perhaps that's where the criticisms of Rafa as 'defensive' come from? Some of us can point to where we think he's trying to take us, but when certain players don't have quite the 'quality' to make the incisive attacking football work every time then we struggle to score and hence the criticisms...

(Pressed post by accident so rushed the edit.)

[shanklyboy]

Question is

Would Fergie play Lucas Leiva week in week out despite him being beyond shite?

Who knows?
Would Benítez?






Maybe Park Je-Sung would play every week for us though.

[Mad Men]

Tomkins has a new book coming out shortly. Anyone got the emails that have been sent out as well?

I wonder if Paul Tomkins is also going to asia to get a better grasp of whats going on with fans in asia and liverpool football club...he could get a lot of good input and probably write a book just on that experince alone!

More than enough material.