Author Topic: Is Insua the/a missing link?  (Read 19662 times)

Offline Romford_Red

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Is Insua the/a missing link?
« on: January 20, 2009, 09:49:24 pm »
When Insua settled as the regular (albeit brief) left back, we played our most effective and brilliant games of the season (Bolton (h), Barcodes (a)) and as soon as he's gone, we're looking a little stuttery again.

My imagination, a coincidence or something else?

Offline desikasanova

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Re: Is Insua the/a missing link?
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2009, 09:50:57 pm »
I feel slightly the same however, I also think we just need to wait for Torres and Keane to gel. I would also like to see Babel playing instead of Kuyt on the wing in atleast one or two games this season once Arbeloa is back.

Offline lfcmaster

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Re: Is Insua the/a missing link?
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2009, 09:51:50 pm »
we have missed insua in the last 2 games

fabio is a solid player but doesnt offer the same attacking power as insua

Offline gutzie

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Re: Is Insua the/a missing link?
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2009, 09:51:51 pm »
hi, don't know how to start a new thread on this site anymore so just wondering when will we know the date and time of the fixture in old trafford.gotta box off flights..cheers

Offline desikasanova

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Re: Is Insua the/a missing link?
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2009, 09:52:34 pm »
hi, don't know how to start a new thread on this site anymore so just wondering when will we know the date and time of the fixture in old trafford.gotta box off flights..cheers
You need a certain amount of posts I believe to be able to start new threads mate, I think you need 50 posts (not 100% sure on the limit required).

Offline Romford_Red

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Re: Is Insua the/a missing link?
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2009, 09:52:47 pm »
The problem with Torres-Keane is the need to play 4-4-2

Don't get me wrong, I like 4-4-2, but then who do you leave out out of Gerrard, Masch and Alonso?

Offline desikasanova

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Re: Is Insua the/a missing link?
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2009, 09:54:42 pm »
The problem with Torres-Keane is the need to play 4-4-2

Don't get me wrong, I like 4-4-2, but then who do you leave out out of Gerrard, Masch and Alonso?
Masch.

--------Keane------Torres-------
Riera ---- Alonso --- Gerrard --- Babel
Insua --- Skrtel/Agger -- Carra -- Arbeloa

I just think that teams better than the one we had against Everton.

Offline Romford_Red

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Re: Is Insua the/a missing link?
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2009, 09:56:33 pm »
IMO Agger>Skrtel

and as much as I look at your team and think it is right, I just can't help but be worried everytime we don't play Masch.
I wouldn't be upset to see all three of them with Kuyt Bumped for Gerrard on  the right.

Offline scoresagain

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Re: Is Insua the/a missing link?
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2009, 10:05:59 pm »
IMO Agger>Skrtel

and as much as I look at your team and think it is right, I just can't help but be worried everytime we don't play Masch.
I wouldn't be upset to see all three of them with Kuyt Bumped for Gerrard on  the right.
if gerrard was played on the right he would be given a free role, so essentially what kuyt is already doing, but gerrard would do it a billion times better.
kuyt needs to be dropped, hes just not good enough.


             reina
arbeloa carragher agger aurelio/insua

gerrard alonso masch riera
 
    torres keane


it has to be the team we play from now until the end of the season, if we want any hope of winning this league campaign.

Offline KTS

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Re: Is Insua the/a missing link?
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2009, 10:09:27 pm »
Would Insua had of played last night though ?
Has no opinion as it is normally wrong.

Offline Romford_Red

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Re: Is Insua the/a missing link?
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2009, 10:10:33 pm »
The way had had played previously, I would have thought so.
Who knows with Rafa though.

Offline BazC

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Re: Is Insua the/a missing link?
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2009, 10:14:11 pm »
Meh. He's good but not that good. No way. The only reason we beat Bolton and Newcastle so easily was because they were shite/didn't have the right attitude against us. Stoke and Everton did.
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Offline Romford_Red

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Re: Is Insua the/a missing link?
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2009, 10:15:49 pm »
I'm not calling him a superstar, but sometimes a player links up well in a team and makes more difference than his skills alone, if you get me.
I guess time will tell.

Offline redscotch

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Re: Is Insua the/a missing link?
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2009, 10:18:18 pm »
He's coming along nicely but hasn't been really tested yet.
Fingers crossed though as he could save us a fortune!

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Re: Is Insua the/a missing link?
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2009, 10:20:14 pm »
Meh. He's good but not that good. No way. The only reason we beat Bolton and Newcastle so easily was because they were shite/didn't have the right attitude against us. Stoke and Everton did.


True dat.

If Insua was so important he would have not been allowed to go.

We are joint top and I want to see some positivity.
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Offline rebel23

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Re: Is Insua the/a missing link?
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2009, 10:20:14 pm »
he gave us a good energy level and performances on the left but also we miss Agger and Arbeloa, if we get them back soon the football will be better


Offline BazC

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Re: Is Insua the/a missing link?
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2009, 10:21:27 pm »
I'm not calling him a superstar, but sometimes a player links up well in a team and makes more difference than his skills alone, if you get me.
I guess time will tell.

Yeah I know. He's barely played 2 games! Nowhere near enough time for him to even integrate into the team let alone be missed because of him making a 'difference beyond his skills'. Like I said- he's good and could well be very good. But nowhere near enough at the level/regularity in the first team to be missed when he's not playing. He's not the reason we hit the wall. He's not even a reason for it.
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Offline Jayo10

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Re: Is Insua the/a missing link?
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2009, 10:24:21 pm »
I don't think the fact Insua is missing has done us any favours.  He was settling in nicely but I wouldn't over state his importance either.

Our problem is we just lack that creativity in the final third. Simple as.

Offline Red Moose

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Re: Is Insua the/a missing link?
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2009, 10:24:40 pm »
Would Insua had of played last night though ?

Yes, absolutely. Fabio was okay but Insua was/is the form player.

The problem last night for me was Carra, each time they bothered us was down his side. Arby has to play on Sunday and perm any 2 of our 4 centre backs (but thats for another thread)

Insua could be the answer, one thing is for sure if I was rafa and got a sizeable offer for Dossena in this window I would sell pronto. He is surplus to requirements and a liability on the run in, thanks mainly to the promise shown by Insua.



Offline Jayo10

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Re: Is Insua the/a missing link?
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2009, 10:29:42 pm »
if gerrard was played on the right he would be given a free role, so essentially what kuyt is already doing, but gerrard would do it a billion times better.
kuyt needs to be dropped, hes just not good enough.


             reina
arbeloa carragher agger aurelio/insua

gerrard alonso masch riera
 
    torres keane


it has to be the team we play from now until the end of the season, if we want any hope of winning this league campaign.

I agree with your idea of using Gerrard on the right again. However, he will need to be disciplined in this role. He will provide more attacking threat from wide though i reckon. When playing as partner of a 2 man central midfield he loses a degree of his goal threat (granted he scored last night).
Also when he plays behind Torres he seems like the only one who can 1) provide something out of nothing 2) tee up torres.
This side relies on Gerrard being on form to get us through even the most mediocre opposition.

I'd love to see him on the right again instead of Kuyt.

Offline El Torres gol

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Re: Is Insua the/a missing link?
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2009, 11:41:43 pm »
The problem with Torres-Keane is the need to play 4-4-2

Don't get me wrong, I like 4-4-2, but then who do you leave out out of Gerrard, Masch and Alonso?
none leave out Kuyt and let gerrard go where he wants to
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Offline Bob Loblaw

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Re: Is Insua the/a missing link?
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2009, 11:56:07 pm »
Think he's definitely more what we need in a fullback than anyone else we have for the position. Aurelio is a lovely cultured footballer, who'd probably shine a bit more with some movement in the team. As it is, he really doesn't offer a whole lot. Don't think he looked to overlap once last night, rarely ever does in fact. You'd have to think its a tactical choice by Rafa. Just hope we don't stifle Insua's natural instincts in that sense, when he does return.

Offline buzzing

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Re: Is Insua the/a missing link?
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2009, 12:02:02 am »
The problem with Torres-Keane is the need to play 4-4-2

Don't get me wrong, I like 4-4-2, but then who do you leave out out of Gerrard, Masch and Alonso?

Against good teams you play with all 3 and 1 up top. Small teams = leave out masch or xabi depending on how the other team attack i.e does their play come from a main player in the middle
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Offline Superthing

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Re: Is Insua the/a missing link?
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2009, 12:04:54 am »
If 90% of people on here can see that Kuyt needs to be dropped, how come Rafa can't?

Personally I like Kuyt, a good honest player who will give his all for the cause but I am running out of ways to defend him, we need more from the right flank, more skill, more crosses, more invention and, as much as it pains me to say it, Kuyt just doesn't seem capable of giving us that.

We already have possibly the best right-winger in the prem in our sqaud, unfortunately that player is Stevie G, and we all know he prefers to play centrally, which you can't really argue with because he has worked wonders from that position.  However, if he were to play out wide for a bit (maybe the rest of the season) Surely Robbie Keane is a ready made replacement for him to play 'in the hole'?  We are constantly being told that's his preferred position!

As for Insua being the missing link?  I doubt that, I think this "blip" is more to with Arbeloa's absence, not only have we missed Alvaro but we have missed Carra in the heart of defence, marshalling his troops, which, in my mind, goes some way to explaining Skrtel's shocker against the blueshite.

Offline bainio

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Re: Is Insua the/a missing link?
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2009, 12:22:08 am »

As for Insua being the missing link?  I doubt that, I think this "blip" is more to with Arbeloa's absence, not only have we missed Alvaro but we have missed Carra in the heart of defence, marshalling his troops, which, in my mind, goes some way to explaining Skrtel's shocker against the blueshite.

Totally agree, Carra hasnt offered much as RB, against stoke he got into good positions but miscontrolled it far too much, and went out for a throw. Same against everton, we really do suffer for not having a RB cover to cover our RB cover :P

Offline El Torres gol

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Re: Is Insua the/a missing link?
« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2009, 12:27:05 am »
Torres Aurelio Skrtel and Keane all have been absent for a time for varying reasons. A week or so ago the boss spoke about the momentum of the team and picked a strong side for the Preston game, but the above players have to come back in (more so Torres than the others) and this by default has to upset that momentum. Catch 22 boys I'm afraid.
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Offline Degs

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Re: Is Insua the/a missing link?
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2009, 12:35:05 am »
Our problems go deeper than a switch round of players but Insua is the kind of player, like Agger, who can help us when we're not winning and are seemingly happy to sit back on the draw.

This has been brewing in me for a while now and rather than start a new thread I'll post it here, since we're talking about missing links (not phil neville). I've made sure to take the time to watch how we play, stretching to the arse end of last season.

You can't put our problems down to one position or one player you have to look at the team as an entity.
Yes we do have a problem, now we'll get the "We're in 2nd, we're challenging for the title" brigade in their legions saying we don't have a problem, but anybody who watches us on a regular basis can see we're struggling, and we have done for a long time (not just this season) in a certain type of match.

It'd be counter productive and not in the Liverpool way at all not to look for ways our team could improve and could be playing better, if you don't then the title passes you by while other teams improve and address their problems. Seemingly a load of our fans have been blinded by the light when looking up from the top of the mountain, unaware we're perilously close to the cliff ledge.

Anyway cracking on (I hate long posts and hardly ever read them) the lad has raised a good point, and it's why are we better with the likes of Insua in the team, and I'll add to this (as will the stats, only one 0-0 between both players) Agger.

The answer is freedom.

I'm not on about total football here, where everybody has every position but a move away from the mechanical and drilled team we've seen under Rafa.  The higher we climb the more rigid we become. I firmly believe this is a direct cause of the system Rafa employs.
Now you'll get both groups wading in both wanting to crucify or coronate Rafa, when the real truth lies somewhere in the middle.  He's a great manager but he's not perfect, he's no Barack Obama, and results over the last 2 seasons, and even from his time in Spain have shown he has a weakness.

The weakness is well known.  Breaking down teams, especially teams with massive numbers behind the ball. I think there is a solution though.

Our problem comes from players being tethered to a spot on the pitch and given a radius of around 6 foot to do their work.  Those who do express creative freedom are either one of the 2 per match allowed to (Torres, Gerrard) or will find their arse with splinters the next (Agger).

Shankly said it best:
"Football is a simple game complicated by idiots"
That man knew his stuff and although you could never call Rafa and idiot, far from it, he does tend to overcomplicate the matter. 

We were revolutionised under a simply philosophy, "Pass and Move".
Pass and move died years ago, from the anti-football of Souness, to the dribble whenever you can Spice Boys, to the counter attacking of Houllier, and now to the military regiment that is Rafa's XI.

I'm not saying we destroy what Rafa has created but the more Rafa is here the more constricted our players become. If Rafa is still here in 5 years time I wouldn't be surprised to see eleven robots on the pitch.

Some people argue it won't work in modern football and to that I say bollocks. 
As much as we hate them the Mancs were so successful last year because of their freedom in front of the middle 2.

The quartet of Giggs, Rooney, Tevez, and Ronaldo were all allowed to drift in and out of each others positions, never becoming stuck against one defender and constantly probing the opposition's back line.
Their problem this year has come from having a player that can only play in one position, Berbatov is too slow to not play anywhere other than in the middle of the park up the top.
It badly set back their team and gave defences a much easier time, they knew what was coming and where it was coming from, there was no interchange and no freedom and they suffered from alot of the problems we do now.

Again this season the team leading the way is Barcelona.
They have a selection of Busquets/Toure and even at times Keita defending anything coming through the middle while in front of them Messi, Henry, and Eto'o are allowed to roam free while Xavi pulls the strings and keeps it all together (Iniesta can also fill in this role).

It's meant they're the quickest to ever reach 50 points in Spain (alright they have class players) but they've done it scoring 85 goals in all competitions this season and only conceding 13 in the league.

Watch how many people end up in the box off any attack, they are safe in the knowledge that should they lose the ball it will be recovered.

Edit: And before you watch it try to count along with how many players are in the box supporting attacks, and ask when the ball is played out from the back could Xabi, Agger, Insua do this? Course they could.

1st half highlights
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/ThXFFl6MC_4&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/ThXFFl6MC_4&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1</a>

2nd half highlights
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/FERR9PmnRKs&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/FERR9PmnRKs&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1</a>

I'm not saying we need to be Barcelona but we have the players that would allow the team the creative freedom we so desperately need.
Agger brings out it exceptionally well from the back linking the defence to the midfield, Alonso is great in the tackle but can spray the ball, doing a Xavi style job orchestrating what is in front of him, we have Mascherano who has had fuck all to do this season because of our sit back attitude, and we have Torres, Gerrard, and Keane who can all score goals.

It was worst exemplified at Stoke. We're 0-0 and playing passes to the back, long balls up front, and our front men aren't moving laterally at all because they're told they must be tracking back and helping the fella behind them.

We don't just have zonal marking on corners we have it in open play, you can tell they each have their own segment to mark and they're scared to abandon it.
No freedom at all.

What we need is an attitude change.
Our team go out with the primary goal of not losing, that much is clear, that's how they're set out, that's how they play, if a win comes it's in spite of our style.  A goal from Torres, a goal from Stevie.

I'll ask you this, on Sunday count how many players are in the box when our attack finishes, I can tell you now it's 2 at most.
It also seems pretty obvious Mascherano will play, I'll ask you to do this, keep an eye on him and what he has to do.  His best asset is his tenacity, to chase players all over the pitch and reclaim the ball.  If we again play with 2 holding players we'll see Mascherano once more looking around at other people doing the work he's there to do rather than doing what they should be doing (Kuyt).

Bring back pass and move, give the lads in the final third some freedom, and go out to win the match.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2009, 12:47:41 am by Degs »

Offline felix.

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Re: Is Insua the/a missing link?
« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2009, 12:39:11 am »
great post mate.

i think rafa's philosophy is great for a smaller club, with less able players. but the fact is that we are a top top team with top players and most sides are afraid of us. we don't need attackers tracking back when the opposition have less players committed to attacking than we do defenders.

i think kuyt and carragher should never be paired on the right. in advanced positions, carra is way too defense minded and doesn't have the bottle to pass forward. the only balls he plays are backwards to the central defender, maybe to alonso if you're lucky. thankfully he's only there when we have no other option.

if kuyt is playing, then there's no need for mascherano.
if we go 4-4-2, mascherano is the one to drop.
this looks like masch bashing but it's not, i love masch, and i think he's the no1 DMF in the world. you can't drop gerrard, and without alonso we look horrible. he makes us tick. gerrard and alonso should play most games, and if one doesn't play then the other must.

kuyt should be a squad player. i defend him sometimes when people go over the top about him but essentially they're fucking right. yes, he tracks back, works hard, but we're not stoke or everton. we don't get results by working hard. or we shouldn't.

i personally think this 11 is great and rivals that of united.

                          reina

arbeloa      carra       agger       aurelio

                 masch
                               alonso   
      gerrard                                  riera
                        keane

                    torres

gerrard obviously doesn't get chalk on his boots.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2009, 01:06:01 am by felix. »
MOSES SAID COME FORTH
    BUT WE CAME FIRST

Offline jckliew

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Re: Is Insua the/a missing link?
« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2009, 01:05:20 am »
Quote
Shankly said it best:
"Football is a simple game complicated by idiots"
That man knew his stuff and although you could never call Rafa and idiot, far from it, he does tend to overcomplicate the matter. 


You are just being too nice! Rafa overcomplicates, so hes and i#### by Shanks definiton....   :-X
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Offline Degs

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Re: Is Insua the/a missing link?
« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2009, 01:16:59 am »
                          reina

arbeloa      carra       agger       aurelio

                 masch
                               alonso   
      gerrard                                  riera
                        keane

                    torres

gerrard obviously doesn't get chalk on his boots.

That's the exact team I'd go for, but with a view to replacing Aurelio with Insua in the long run.
Agger brings the ball out,  ALonso plays it in the gaps Gearrard has free reign, Keane does what he's been doing all season but finally has some support (starting deep and then joining in late), Riera keeps width and spreads their back line, Torres keeping their defensive line back.

It would mean we got bodies in attack, we run out of options at almost every corner when we play a lesser team and it's the creative players that will win us the league like Agger, and Insua rather than as great as he's been this season Hyypia. (Hyypia has been fucking boss by the way but his inability to distribute the ball causes our attacks to break down from the start).

Offline rowan_d

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Re: Is Insua the/a missing link?
« Reply #30 on: January 21, 2009, 01:18:09 am »
The missing link is quite clearly Gareth Bale.

Offline felix.

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Re: Is Insua the/a missing link?
« Reply #31 on: January 21, 2009, 01:38:35 am »
replacing Aurelio with Insua in the long run.

of course.

and imagine babel coming in for riera at times. i disagree with the notion that most on here hold, that babel isn't an intelligent player. he's not genius, but he can bring others into play with surprisingly well weighted passes. i was watching the review of last season and i remember one instance when he slipped in a fantastic little pass to gerrard surging into the box. sadly it came to nothing, and noone will remember it. i think it was inter at home.

then the beautiful goal against newcastle away last season showed great interplay between them. i could go on.

overall i feel babel and gerrard are somehow on the same wavelength and have a good understanding. not nandolike, obviously, but it hasn't had the time has it?

babel... people compare him to cisse but his first goal for us [derby 6-0] keeps me hoping that he will come good. that goal was just sublime. and people say he's stupid. that touch was genius. messi standard. yes it was derby, the defending was shite etc. granted. but the shite defending is not what makes him try the move, that's all his brain. the shite defending just helped him pul it off.

Quote
(Hyypia has been fucking boss by the way but his inability to distribute the ball causes our attacks to break down from the start).

played that fantastic pass that torres didn't finish. hyypia is not that tragic. i agree though, he's got nothing on agger in that department. i remember an interview he gave on the subject, he said that 'maybe danny is better now'. sami don't make me laugh. :)

sorry for not talking about insua. :)

MOSES SAID COME FORTH
    BUT WE CAME FIRST

Offline Another Red

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Re: Is Insua the/a missing link?
« Reply #32 on: January 21, 2009, 01:54:46 am »
We seem to struggle when Torres, Keane & Gerrard play together. Perhaps it's just Keane's lack of form or Torres' lack of match fitness? Maybe they need more time to gel? But the problem was there at the start of the season and it was there again yesterday. 

Gerrard's natural game is to get forward from centre mid and Keane's is to drop deep to receive the ball. Are they crowding each other out? Perhaps the only way to include all three is to push Gerrard out wide right, but that would deprive the team of Gerrard's abilities through the centre (like scoring gems from 25 yards smack bang in front of goal).

Just putting the theory out there because the team has played better when one of the three is omitted. I'd be interested to see us play a game (non-league preferably) with Torres and Keane up front with two of Lucas/Alonso/Mascherano in centre mid.

Getting back to the topic of Insua, I think he looked very comfortable at left back for us but I don't think he is the missing link at the moment.

Offline Bob Loblaw

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Re: Is Insua the/a missing link?
« Reply #33 on: January 21, 2009, 02:05:40 am »
Our problems go deeper than a switch round of players but Insua is the kind of player, like Agger, who can help us when we're not winning and ................

Top post that.

Just to pick up on one point. Mascherano. He's maybe the best sitting mid-fielder in the World, yet i don't think he's played that position once for us. He's someone who, by doing what he does best, alows others on the pitch that extra bit of freedom to play. Sit him in front of the back four, put Gerrard and Alonso, as a pair, in front of them, and just tell them to go play.


Offline i_wun_bite

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Re: Is Insua the/a missing link?
« Reply #34 on: January 21, 2009, 02:53:00 am »
Our problems go deeper than a switch round of players but Insua is the kind of player, like Agger, who can help us when we're not winning and are seemingly happy to sit back on the draw.

This has been brewing in me for a while now and rather than start a new thread I'll post it here, since we're talking about missing links (not phil neville). I've made sure to take the time to watch how we play, stretching to the arse end of last season.

You can't put our problems down to one position or one player you have to look at the team as an entity.
Yes we do have a problem, now we'll get the "We're in 2nd, we're challenging for the title" brigade in their legions saying we don't have a problem, but anybody who watches us on a regular basis can see we're struggling, and we have done for a long time (not just this season) in a certain type of match.

It'd be counter productive and not in the Liverpool way at all not to look for ways our team could improve and could be playing better, if you don't then the title passes you by while other teams improve and address their problems. Seemingly a load of our fans have been blinded by the light when looking up from the top of the mountain, unaware we're perilously close to the cliff ledge.

Anyway cracking on (I hate long posts and hardly ever read them) the lad has raised a good point, and it's why are we better with the likes of Insua in the team, and I'll add to this (as will the stats, only one 0-0 between both players) Agger.

The answer is freedom.

I'm not on about total football here, where everybody has every position but a move away from the mechanical and drilled team we've seen under Rafa.  The higher we climb the more rigid we become. I firmly believe this is a direct cause of the system Rafa employs.
Now you'll get both groups wading in both wanting to crucify or coronate Rafa, when the real truth lies somewhere in the middle.  He's a great manager but he's not perfect, he's no Barack Obama, and results over the last 2 seasons, and even from his time in Spain have shown he has a weakness.

The weakness is well known.  Breaking down teams, especially teams with massive numbers behind the ball. I think there is a solution though.

Our problem comes from players being tethered to a spot on the pitch and given a radius of around 6 foot to do their work.  Those who do express creative freedom are either one of the 2 per match allowed to (Torres, Gerrard) or will find their arse with splinters the next (Agger).

Shankly said it best:
"Football is a simple game complicated by idiots"
That man knew his stuff and although you could never call Rafa and idiot, far from it, he does tend to overcomplicate the matter. 

We were revolutionised under a simply philosophy, "Pass and Move".
Pass and move died years ago, from the anti-football of Souness, to the dribble whenever you can Spice Boys, to the counter attacking of Houllier, and now to the military regiment that is Rafa's XI.

I'm not saying we destroy what Rafa has created but the more Rafa is here the more constricted our players become. If Rafa is still here in 5 years time I wouldn't be surprised to see eleven robots on the pitch.

Some people argue it won't work in modern football and to that I say bollocks. 
As much as we hate them the Mancs were so successful last year because of their freedom in front of the middle 2.

The quartet of Giggs, Rooney, Tevez, and Ronaldo were all allowed to drift in and out of each others positions, never becoming stuck against one defender and constantly probing the opposition's back line.
Their problem this year has come from having a player that can only play in one position, Berbatov is too slow to not play anywhere other than in the middle of the park up the top.
It badly set back their team and gave defences a much easier time, they knew what was coming and where it was coming from, there was no interchange and no freedom and they suffered from alot of the problems we do now.

Again this season the team leading the way is Barcelona.
They have a selection of Busquets/Toure and even at times Keita defending anything coming through the middle while in front of them Messi, Henry, and Eto'o are allowed to roam free while Xavi pulls the strings and keeps it all together (Iniesta can also fill in this role).

It's meant they're the quickest to ever reach 50 points in Spain (alright they have class players) but they've done it scoring 85 goals in all competitions this season and only conceding 13 in the league.

Watch how many people end up in the box off any attack, they are safe in the knowledge that should they lose the ball it will be recovered.

Edit: And before you watch it try to count along with how many players are in the box supporting attacks, and ask when the ball is played out from the back could Xabi, Agger, Insua do this? Course they could.

I'm not saying we need to be Barcelona but we have the players that would allow the team the creative freedom we so desperately need.
Agger brings out it exceptionally well from the back linking the defence to the midfield, Alonso is great in the tackle but can spray the ball, doing a Xavi style job orchestrating what is in front of him, we have Mascherano who has had fuck all to do this season because of our sit back attitude, and we have Torres, Gerrard, and Keane who can all score goals.

It was worst exemplified at Stoke. We're 0-0 and playing passes to the back, long balls up front, and our front men aren't moving laterally at all because they're told they must be tracking back and helping the fella behind them.

We don't just have zonal marking on corners we have it in open play, you can tell they each have their own segment to mark and they're scared to abandon it.
No freedom at all.

What we need is an attitude change.
Our team go out with the primary goal of not losing, that much is clear, that's how they're set out, that's how they play, if a win comes it's in spite of our style.  A goal from Torres, a goal from Stevie.

I'll ask you this, on Sunday count how many players are in the box when our attack finishes, I can tell you now it's 2 at most.
It also seems pretty obvious Mascherano will play, I'll ask you to do this, keep an eye on him and what he has to do.  His best asset is his tenacity, to chase players all over the pitch and reclaim the ball.  If we again play with 2 holding players we'll see Mascherano once more looking around at other people doing the work he's there to do rather than doing what they should be doing (Kuyt).

Bring back pass and move, give the lads in the final third some freedom, and go out to win the match.


Damn bloody F*@King right u are. Hit the nail on the head. Our players are getting mechnical, it becomes like u mentioned, too regimental. A lack of freedom to express.

Offline GinuWhine

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Re: Is Insua the/a missing link?
« Reply #35 on: January 21, 2009, 05:42:01 am »
great post mate.

i think rafa's philosophy is great for a smaller club, with less able players. but the fact is that we are a top top team with top players and most sides are afraid of us. we don't need attackers tracking back when the opposition have less players committed to attacking than we do defenders.

i think kuyt and carragher should never be paired on the right. in advanced positions, carra is way too defense minded and doesn't have the bottle to pass forward. the only balls he plays are backwards to the central defender, maybe to alonso if you're lucky. thankfully he's only there when we have no other option.

if kuyt is playing, then there's no need for mascherano.
if we go 4-4-2, mascherano is the one to drop.
this looks like masch bashing but it's not, i love masch, and i think he's the no1 DMF in the world. you can't drop gerrard, and without alonso we look horrible. he makes us tick. gerrard and alonso should play most games, and if one doesn't play then the other must.

kuyt should be a squad player. i defend him sometimes when people go over the top about him but essentially they're fucking right. yes, he tracks back, works hard, but we're not stoke or everton. we don't get results by working hard. or we shouldn't.

i personally think this 11 is great and rivals that of united.

                          reina

arbeloa      carra       agger       aurelio

                 masch
                               alonso   
      gerrard                                  riera
                        keane

                    torres

gerrard obviously doesn't get chalk on his boots.


I wouldn't mind a variation where, when Gerrard drifts into the middle, Arbeloa pushes into the right wing position and we go to 3 at the back with Carra, Agger and Skrtel. This would require Agger to start off at left back, but with the overlap on the right wing and Carra's ability to play right back, it's a viable option we should think of. Especially since we have Masch to cover the back "3". Obviously with Arbeloa tracking back, it's still a 4-4-2. It would give Agger the license to go forward himself which he is very strong at, and also gives us Skrtel's strength in the middle. It allows us to play our 4 best defenders at the same time, which would give us a LOT of stability at the back, while giving us greater numbers moving up field.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2009, 05:45:43 am by GinuWine »

Offline Rafadom

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Re: Is Insua the/a missing link?
« Reply #36 on: January 21, 2009, 08:37:15 am »
Insua dominates through his attacking intent he pushes their players back due his energy and general ideas about how to play, he seems a balanced player reads the game fairly well isnt beaten alot.

The preston game he did but i put that mainly down to tiredness and the the vigure and pace of the prem. Him and Riera are a very good combination both i feel help each others game whare possibly aurelio surprisingly for me isnt on the same wave length.

Their were many times Aurelio really should of been forward and wasnt, now this is whare Insua comes in his constant thaught of getting up that line allows Riera to have that other option of a pass or to disguise his own thinking at that time.

As for carra he showed how tired he was at the Everton game he looked shattered all game preaty much and it certainly didnt help towards the end when they scored when we pushed carra more inside it seemed.

Overall defensively i dont think he is missed but his abilty on the ball and his general idea of how to play is.

It would be interesting to see how this first team did as i feel its a best team and we havent seen it all season, which again proves how well this team has done.
-------------------------Reina
Arbeloa----------Carra-----Skrtel-----------Insua
-------------------------Masch
-----------------------Alonso
----Babel/Kuyt---------------Gerrard-------------Riera
------------------------------Torres

Now for me that team is very good our left hand side for me looks very good and through the middle well that is just excellent and even our right looks improved.

If we can get that team to play consistantly throughout the season from now on, obviously injuries will play a part but i feel most of that team is coming back to or is in form so im rather confident about the end of the season.

« Last Edit: January 21, 2009, 08:40:05 am by Rafadom »

Offline cgahan

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Re: Is Insua the/a missing link?
« Reply #37 on: January 21, 2009, 09:18:22 am »
I think some people feel more comfortable/less worried when they can point to one reason for the team not performing.... "when this or that is sorted everything will be fine..."

Clutching at straws imo
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Offline NasEscobar

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Re: Is Insua the/a missing link?
« Reply #38 on: January 21, 2009, 09:39:29 am »
I know the lad is ugly but...
Check me out y'all, Nasty Nas in your area, About to cause mass Hysteria.

Offline LFCYNWA

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Re: Is Insua the/a missing link?
« Reply #39 on: January 21, 2009, 11:24:20 am »
hi, don't know how to start a new thread on this site anymore so just wondering when will we know the date and time of the fixture in old trafford.gotta box off flights..cheers

The game at he theatre of sh*te is on Saturday 14th March 3pm ko ?
It might be brought forward to the early kickoff of the day but we won't know until nearer the time

http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/match/season/