Topic: Rafa's "Houllier Moment"

[shanklyboy]

I have to admit, I haven't read all the replies and discussion in this thread. As much more of a lurker than poster that's quite unusual for me, but I feel the need to post on this topic.

I'm a younger Red. Twenty-three.

I knew I'd like your post as soon as I saw your name.
Well said son.....the futures young, bright and Red.

It warms my heart.

[woof]

I have to admit, I haven't read all the replies and discussion in this thread. As much more of a lurker than poster that's quite unusual for me, but I feel the need to post on this topic.

I'm a younger Red. Twenty-three.

I'd imagine most people calling reactionally for Rafa's head after losses(or even draws!) would be placed somewhere near my own age.

I can only vaguely remember football before Sky - sadly, against my own will, I am one of the Sky generation. We belong to a time of constant media exposure to our sport, constant headlines, constant debate, constant bullshit spouted out by pundits and experts without the balls to manage a club themselves or even go against the common perception of footballing cliches.

And it messes with your head. It messes with my head.

This is my first time experiencing a real, concrete challenge for this title we all want so fucking badly. And it tells on me. Every dropped point, every decision that goes against us, every word thrown out in a verbal sparring match. It fucking exhausts me.

But this is it.

This is what we - I, at least - begged for, for as long as I could remember. We are in there. Mixing it up. Trading blows with the from the East Lancs and those nobodies from London. Fighting for every point.

And when I remember that, I remember WHY every dropped point hurts - because they have never mattered as much as they do now. They have never counted as they do this season.

We have a chance. It hurts me when we drop points...but this is a fucking TITLE RACE. Something only those of us old enough to appreciate 1990 - which I cannot - can truly understand. We're in it! We're fighting for our crown.

Who brought us there?

That's all I ask.

If you will cast your mind back to 2004. Our top striker decides to leave because his home club, one of Europe's elite, cannot match his ambition. Our club had failed to reply to going one nil down to so long it had become a running joke. Laughed at even in our own league - and mocked, by proxy, by the actions of our best player - for our gutlessness and lack of ambition.

And in Europe...

Those four cups we all hold so dear seemed like long ago, distant memories, as revelant to those in my age group as tales of King Arthur and Excalbiur. Mere legends, fanciful tales spoken in bragging but sentimental tones around firesides the world over.

Rafael Benitez.

If you can remember where we were when he took over, you can remember what e, and he alone, brought us. Back to the forefront of European dominance. Replacing players like Diao and Diouf with the likes of Mascherano and Torres. Making us look like a real title contending team for the first time since...well, a very long time.

He takes abuse from our press, our own owners, and some of our fans. He faces an impossible mission - to restore a proud, but battered institution to its rightful place atop what is now the hardest league in the world to win.

And here we are, near February, fighting for it.

IN THE MIX.

And to all those pissing and moaning here, ask yourselves this- if you had been offered this position before the season started, would you have taken it?

Down the Lancs, all we heard and see is confidence, while here we splutter and worry and bite our nails like frightened little schoolgirls. I have been guilty of it myself at times this season. But we're undermining ourselves. Our players, our manager, our staff - OUR FUCKING TEAM - need us one and all behind them.

No in-fighting. No OOT vs Scouser. No superfan vs whopper. No optimist vs pessimist. No fucking nothing.

Our team needs us.

Rafa can takes us there, of that I truly believe. But only if we give him the chance. We've been starved too long, have waited patiently only to be denied time after time. It shows in our behaviour. Like a starved animal we squirm and howl and struggle in vain for what we need.

But our struggle has come close to ending - all we need now is the fucking bottle to see this through.

And if we fall short - is it Rafa's fault?

It took that piss stained fucking wino Ferguson many title challenges to win his first one - and look what followed.

Great post from a "younger" supporter

[Fat Scouser]

Yeah mate. I'm onto the midget tossing now.
good post by that you ng lad there, but it makes me laugh that the young think they are the only ones hurt by us not winning a title since Methusalah was playing. They seem to think it's easy to see something you've cherished all your life wallow in mediocrity just because you had the priveldge of seeing it when it was great.

I know we got that. I'm fucking made up I did. But it doesn't make the last few years any easier. But I tell you what's really fucking great about them.... they think 50 is 70. But still onwards and upwards, time to get on the zimmer over to the Thora Hird lift, get up the dancers, put me toupee on the bedside alarm, stick me full set in the Everton mug and try to get a few zzzzzz'z.

[YoungandIgnorant]

Dunno how to work them quote things, but I just wanna say a quick thanks to you guys for acknowledging that post - it's the aul arses like you I enjoy hearing tales of footy from. And FATSCOUSER, I love your posts mate, always paint a nice picture of what real football was like.

But I know it ain't just me suffering here and I know that all too well. Don't even have to look too far from my own home to see one aul arse who had his heart torn out by what happened to our club - and when I see the look on the father's face recently, it just cements my belief in what's happening this season. The old man believes - like I never seen him believe before. When I'm just about getting ready to puke from stress over some dropped points, he reminds me that this season, this race is just heating up.

[woof]

FS, you're still fucking awake??? Geez...

[Endoe]

I liked Le Boss. I always will. He stopped the rot and got us back on track. I will always be grateful and think of well of him.

Agreed, I don't dislike Ged, maybe just came back to early.

[shanklyboy]

Yeah mate. I'm onto the midget tossing now.
good post by that you ng lad there, but it makes me laugh that the young think they are the only ones hurt by us not winning a title since Methusalah was playing. They seem to think it's easy to see something you've cherished all your life wallow in mediocrity just because you had the priveldge of seeing it when it was great.

I know we got that. I'm fucking made up I did. But it doesn't make the last few years any easier. But I tell you what's really fucking great about them.... they think 50 is 70. But still onwards and upwards, time to get on the zimmer over to the Thora Hird lift, get up the dancers, put me toupee on the bedside alarm, stick me full set in the Everton mug and try to get a few zzzzzz'z.

In your case 50 is 70 mate...you've definately been here before.....but Thora Hird eh...bet you would?
Typical Welsh Scouser.....Tossing midgets off for money.
A proper Scouser from the South End wouldn't lower himself.

[Redskin]

Yes, lad. Of course he could. He's got previous.

I honestly think the only reason he's still here is that he's such a stubborn bastard. People use that against him. But if it wasn't for that trait, I think he'd have already said fuck this melarkey and done one. But he's on a mission and won't give in. But will he stay like that?

His detractors also keep banging on about closed doors. But none of us really know how bad it is behind them closed doors. But the little we do know - which we only know because he let us know - is bad enough.

Ask yourself this, would you keep going to work under these circumstances when you could walk into practically any top job in Europe?

I believe Rafa when he says how much he loves us fans, the club and the city, but I'm not foolish enough to think that's what keeps him here. It's the weather.

But seriously, would you want your kids growing up in a completely alien culture and way of life? Would you want to give up your own culture and way of life? Would you want to be pulling out your tripes and constantly get leathered by the likes of Paul Merson and all the other genius punters? More importantly would you like to be pulling your tripes out for people that you want to bring success to, and then watch them turn on you and treat you no better than the media?

I could go on but you get my drift. And to answer one of me own questions, if I thought the very people I'm trying for, and making sacrifices for to do it, I would ask meself... Is there any point?

And reading some of the stuff in here, and hearing the moans, groans a booing at Anfield - me answer would definetely be Is It Fuck.

Brian Reade gave the nearest indication that I've seen about how things really are in "42 Years with the Same Bird", and at  one point  he actually says that if Rafa had  had accurate picture of how things really were before he got here, he'd have looked very hard before jumping.

[Red_Isle_Chap]

I have to admit, I haven't read all the replies and discussion in this thread. As much more of a lurker than poster that's quite unusual for me, but I feel the need to post on this topic.

I'm a younger Red. Twenty-three.

I'd imagine most people calling reactionally for Rafa's head after losses(or even draws!) would be placed somewhere near my own age.

I can only vaguely remember football before Sky - sadly, against my own will, I am one of the Sky generation. We belong to a time of constant media exposure to our sport, constant headlines, constant debate, constant bullshit spouted out by pundits and experts without the balls to manage a club themselves or even go against the common perception of footballing cliches.

And it messes with your head. It messes with my head.

This is my first time experiencing a real, concrete challenge for this title we all want so fucking badly. And it tells on me. Every dropped point, every decision that goes against us, every word thrown out in a verbal sparring match. It fucking exhausts me.

But this is it.

This is what we - I, at least - begged for, for as long as I could remember. We are in there. Mixing it up. Trading blows with the from the East Lancs and those nobodies from London. Fighting for every point.

And when I remember that, I remember WHY every dropped point hurts - because they have never mattered as much as they do now. They have never counted as they do this season.

We have a chance. It hurts me when we drop points...but this is a fucking TITLE RACE. Something only those of us old enough to appreciate 1990 - which I cannot - can truly understand. We're in it! We're fighting for our crown.

Who brought us there?

That's all I ask.

If you will cast your mind back to 2004. Our top striker decides to leave because his home club, one of Europe's elite, cannot match his ambition. Our club had failed to reply to going one nil down to so long it had become a running joke. Laughed at even in our own league - and mocked, by proxy, by the actions of our best player - for our gutlessness and lack of ambition.

And in Europe...

Those four cups we all hold so dear seemed like long ago, distant memories, as revelant to those in my age group as tales of King Arthur and Excalbiur. Mere legends, fanciful tales spoken in bragging but sentimental tones around firesides the world over.

Rafael Benitez.

If you can remember where we were when he took over, you can remember what e, and he alone, brought us. Back to the forefront of European dominance. Replacing players like Diao and Diouf with the likes of Mascherano and Torres. Making us look like a real title contending team for the first time since...well, a very long time.

He takes abuse from our press, our own owners, and some of our fans. He faces an impossible mission - to restore a proud, but battered institution to its rightful place atop what is now the hardest league in the world to win.

And here we are, near February, fighting for it.

IN THE MIX.

And to all those pissing and moaning here, ask yourselves this- if you had been offered this position before the season started, would you have taken it?

Down the Lancs, all we heard and see is confidence, while here we splutter and worry and bite our nails like frightened little schoolgirls. I have been guilty of it myself at times this season. But we're undermining ourselves. Our players, our manager, our staff - OUR FUCKING TEAM - need us one and all behind them.

No in-fighting. No OOT vs Scouser. No superfan vs whopper. No optimist vs pessimist. No fucking nothing.

Our team needs us.

Rafa can takes us there, of that I truly believe. But only if we give him the chance. We've been starved too long, have waited patiently only to be denied time after time. It shows in our behaviour. Like a starved animal we squirm and howl and struggle in vain for what we need.

But our struggle has come close to ending - all we need now is the fucking bottle to see this through.

And if we fall short - is it Rafa's fault?

It took that piss stained fucking wino Ferguson many title challenges to win his first one - and look what followed.

Sorry to quote the whole thing again, but fuck me there's so many on this site that need to read this post.

Some of you are fucking pathetic. When we drew at stoke, lots of posters on here immediately threw in the fucking towel saying bilge like "Well it's the mancs to lose now". Fuck off with you're pathetic attitudes. I've saide it before and i'll say it again, with the amount of negativity there is on the back of a fucking draw, its not surprising that it's filtering down to the players that a majority of the fans now seem to think there's no chance of winning the title. And with that attitude there isn't.

Some of you seem to think that winning this should be a stroll in the park and seem unable to grasp the simple matter that there are no easy games anymore. I still read "we threw away the points to shite teams like (insert stoke, everton, etc here) but fail to see that a few seasons ago we wouldn't even have got one point. You know what we're missing at the moment? A bit of luck. Gerrard hits the post against stoke, couple of inches the other way and we've nicked 3 points much like that shower down the road did against bolton.

No faith=no passion. I still firmly believe that we can do it and that Rafa's the man to take us to number 19. I do not want to seem him sacked or even worse, walk away. I can't bear to be starting AGAIN with another manager and players. We do that we end up like Spurs and Newcastle (apologies to Tommy and Paul) And i agree with FS. The moment i see a c*nt like Maureen in charge of Liverpool FC is the moment that i say enough is enough and start following world championship bowls instead. It makes me feel sick to my very core the thought that there's fans out there that would rather see him than Rafa.

[Redshadow]

KOTP, under your name there is one word best to describe the thread you start here. Clue: it starts with "C"!!!

[redmeanmachine]

#

firstly i'll start with your point saying i am just looking for attention using houllier. as i have said i am not comparing the two manager there is no comparrison rafa is clearly the better manager. the point i am making from that is that i had a feelin 18-24months before houllier went that we had seen the best of him and i am having that same feeling about rafa now.

obvisouly rafa didnt go out and tell yossi to go out and give the foul away. but giving moyes the option of having anichebe who i thought was man of the match, was causing our tall players problems bringing on a small player for him to play up against is surely asking for trouble, leave kuyt on in the right hand side and at least with him and Riera there you have to 6 foot palyers to help the fbs against him

as for the rest of what you have said yes rafa has imrpoved things this season but can he take it to the next step from imporving to title winners? i just honestly feel he cant

KOTP, you obviously didn't follow Rafa's Valencia. The season when they won their first la liga title under Rafa, they were drawing alot of games. Too many until Valencia fans turned against him. (Do you see the similarities?) But we know what happened at the end right?

Rafa's squad is NOT COMPLETE. It's WORK-IN-PROGRESS!

[Walking Through A Storm]

Sorry to quote the whole thing again, but fuck me there's so many on this site that need to read this post.

Some of you are fucking pathetic. When we drew at stoke, lots of posters on here immediately threw in the fucking towel saying bilge like "Well it's the mancs to lose now". Fuck off with you're pathetic attitudes. I've saide it before and i'll say it again, with the amount of negativity there is on the back of a fucking draw, its not surprising that it's filtering down to the players that a majority of the fans now seem to think there's no chance of winning the title. And with that attitude there isn't.

Some of you seem to think that winning this should be a stroll in the park and seem unable to grasp the simple matter that there are no easy games anymore. I still read "we threw away the points to shite teams like (insert stoke, everton, etc here) but fail to see that a few seasons ago we wouldn't even have got one point. You know what we're missing at the moment? A bit of luck. Gerrard hits the post against stoke, couple of inches the other way and we've nicked 3 points much like that shower down the road did against bolton.

No faith=no passion. I still firmly believe that we can do it and that Rafa's the man to take us to number 19. I do not want to seem him sacked or even worse, walk away. I can't bear to be starting AGAIN with another manager and players. We do that we end up like Spurs and Newcastle (apologies to Tommy and Paul) And i agree with FS. The moment i see a c*nt like Maureen in charge of Liverpool FC is the moment that i say enough is enough and start following world championship bowls instead. It makes me feel sick to my very core the thought that there's fans out there that would rather see him than Rafa.

Yes lad. Great two posts there, should be compulsory viewing.

[stonty]

I love Rafa but  he's getting more & more bewildering as the months roll by, I'm concerned he'll eventually turn into a cross of Idi Amin & Caligula

[mr_oo3]

I think Rafa is a victim of his own success at the moment. 

By getting us so close (and we still are very close) to the league, we have all either secretly or openly started to believe that we can finally win it.  We have been so far away for so long, that now it seems that this is our one chance. 

Now that it seems to be slipping away, it hurts twice as bad as battling for fourth.  We were comfortable in battling for fourth.  We've done it for years, and we know we can do it.

We all remember Houllier's 2nd and what happened in the years after that.  A lot of people are thinking that if we don't do it now, Rafa won't get another chance for years. 

The fact is that this season we have been lucky;  all of United, Chelsea & Arsenal have dropped silly points and haven't played well.  We managed to beat United & Chelsea, which is the only reason we are still in this race.

Most of us are not confident of being able to beat Utd & Chelsea again.  This is what we will need to do, now that we have thrown so many points away. 

No matter our position in the league, we haven't played fantastically this year.  Frankly we haven't played like champions.  But neither has any other team.

The difference is that Utd, Chelsea & Arse HAVE & CAN play like champions.  The jury is out on Liverpool.  We as fans are not sure if we can do it, and to be honest I doubt the players are either. 

[Mad Men]

I don't generally believe in calling for any sacking of any manager unless they warrant it and I think some of you are taking the fustrations of 8 draws this season a wee too seriously. Yes, it is fustrating that we could be 9-12 points ahead of the mancs but lets stop and think for a minute:

1) We have been on top of the league for the most part this season, something we haven't achieved in over 4-5 years.
2) Rafa has not had the sort of financial muscle the Mancs have had and there is obviously some problems behind closed doors between him, parry and the owners on a number of issues and its affecting our performance to some extent.
3) We have managed to win match's despite playing badly in the first half of the season, lost only ONCE at the half way point, and are only behind the mancs because they have won 1 more match than us, have lost ONE more match than us but don't forget, they have drawn 5 games thus far.

I see a more stable back room now with Sammy lee who brings a hell of a lot of experince to the backroom and we also have the benefit of experince over the last two seasons by always finishing stronger than many of the top 3 sides.

I am just as baffled at times with his team selections and substitutions but in comparison, what management training, certification and knowledge and facts do I have, that is better than rafa, sammy lee and the back room staff?

They obviously do their homework about the opposition beforehand, and obviously know the strenght and weaknesses of our players and the opposition, fitness levels and also who needs a break and who doesn't.

I think all this talk of mutiny and sackings should be reserved for the end of the season when its all over and we have the benefit of looking back on an interesting season thus far.

Let's not forget, we are still in the FA Cup and the Champions league and are only 2 points behind the Mancs as we move towards the end of January.

[rocco]

 Can anybody tell me what Ferguson won in his first 4 years at old trafford 86-89  nothing and except for the fa cup win in 89-90 it looked like he would have been sacked ... in his first season he finished 11th

 

Rafa in his first season Champions League    the European Super Cup and was runner up in the Football League Cup. In 2006  FA Cup and the FA Community Shield ,  the Champions League final  2007 plus us making the champions league each year

[Strawberry Fields]

Can anybody tell me what Ferguson won in his first 4 years at old trafford 86-89  nothing and except for the fa cup win in 89-90 it looked like he would have been sacked ... in his first season he finished 11th

Rafa in his first season Champions League    the European Super Cup and was runner up in the Football League Cup. In 2006  FA Cup and the FA Community Shield ,  the Champions League final  2007 plus us making the champions league each year

Aren't people tired of that argument? Shouldn't there be an expiry date on these things like with milk?
Football was very very different back then, stop comparing!
If there are people who really think that because Rafa won more in his first seasons in the job than Whiskey-nose so he'll end up being more or equally successful then they are deluded.
I'm not saying there's no chance of that happening, I'm saying it doesn't work that way.

[Fruity]

I hate to say but it seems Mr Ferguson comments about our fans not have the stomach for a title challenge is true.

If people are like this now i dread to think how they will be in march/april.

We will not win the title if this mentality translates to the players on the pitch (and i think thats started happening already).

Our first title challenge in ages should see fans in buoyant mood and enjoying it...seriously if carragher or gerrard came out tomorrow and said "we wont win it, we have dropped too many points, it doesnt matter we are 2nd we just wont win it, man utd will win the quadruple" what would some of you think?

The negativity of some is alarming. Positivity is a much harder challenge but some people should try it.

[Hannibal]

People use that arguement to show that we need to have patience.  There are very very few clubs in the world that can sustain continuous success by chopping and changing managers constantly.  The few who do have massive resources and are able to retool their entire squads in 1 transfer window like Madrid/Chelsea etc.

[rocco]

Aren't people tired of that argument? Shouldn't there be an expiry date on these things like with milk?
Football was very very different back then, stop comparing!
If there are people who really think that because Rafa won more in his first seasons in the job than Whiskey-nose so he'll end up being more or equally successful then they are deluded.
I'm not saying there's no chance of that happening, I'm saying it doesn't work that way.

All I'm saying is have patience and support Rafa ..

[the jesus]

People use that arguement to show that we need to have patience.  There are very very few clubs in the world that can sustain continuous success by chopping and changing managers constantly.  The few who do have massive resources and are able to retool their entire squads in 1 transfer window like Madrid/Chelsea etc.

See the laughing stock that are Spurs and Newcastle. Even Chelsea are now half the side they were under "the special needs one" and are struggling to live up to the results and performances of the mighty Avram Grant.

[the jesus]

Aren't people tired of that argument? Shouldn't there be an expiry date on these things like with milk?
Football was very very different back then, stop comparing!
If there are people who really think that because Rafa won more in his first seasons in the job than Whiskey-nose so he'll end up being more or equally successful then they are deluded.
I'm not saying there's no chance of that happening, I'm saying it doesn't work that way.

Being as successful as Whiskey nose isn't the requirement, regularly challenging for the Title is.
Fergies experience, shows how long it takes to build a side capable of it.

Your right football has changed, he had the fortune of watching us self destruct just as his side became decent enought to challenge. Rafa doesn't have that luxury.

[Strawberry Fields]

All I'm saying is have patience and support Rafa ..

I am. I just have little faith in his ways.

To support and to agree are two different things. There's no NEED to do both.

[rocco]

I am. I just have little faith in his ways.

To support and to agree are two different things. There's no NEED to do both.

Remember Rafa's team is not quite there yet , but when and he does get it right we will be unstoppable { well i believe that} and yes i get angry etc after our defeats and draws and ask why he done and didn't do that.. but I'll support him 100% , even if some are fading and the board are not 100% behind him.

[robbie77]

I've read a few of the posts, and it's a strange one. Firstly, if Rafa left Liverpool as manager, who would we bring in? Is there anyone better out there? The answers NO. Well, Rafa stays. I have to admit over the course of the season he has made some really strange and somewhat stupid decisions - some might say. He dropped Kuyt (first time in 13 games) after he'd scored 5 in 6 and was hitting some kind of form. He dropped Keane after he scored 3 in 2 games (even though we beat Newcastle 5 -1 in the next game). Keane then plays against Preston and has a shocker in front of goal. Than on Monday night, we have 1 of the best central midfielders in the world, I won't call him a defensive midfielder cause he's better than that, in Mascherano and he brings on a Brazil U21 international for the last 10 mins or so. Now can anyone, anywhere explain why he didn't bring Masch on? I think Rafa is stubborn but he also has the ability tactically to out manouvre any other manager in the world. I've alway ssaid we will struggle to win the league under Rafa. Only time will tell. As I said earlier even if we wanted to get rid (and personally I don't think that's the answer), who else is there out there?

[rocco]

I hate to say but it seems Mr Ferguson comments about our fans not have the stomach for a title challenge is true.

When did Mr. Fergie say this ...

[lurganirishlfc]

I think rafa deserves at least another 2 years it took fergie years to build up his squad yes lately i think rafa's methods have cost us points but were 2nd in the league and still challengin for the title thats wot we fans want 2 see he does deserve credit if were still in with a shout of the title come late april/may then 2 me its a  successful season considering our league positions in the last 5/10 years lets just hope he can build on it for next season and push to win it.

[the_red_pill]

I've stayed off the forums since Everton, but I had to peek and true to form, the loonies have taken over the asylum.

As always- it's a clash between people who see events from either a NOW or WHAT IF perspective and we'll never agree, because our arguments are naturally circular.

Allz I can say is that recently the 'attacking football' school has looked down on Mascherano and why he's there. They've questioned his inclusion, they've used him in some of their arguments against Rafa.

This same school has questioned Rafa's use of 2 holding midfielders and used this to point out his 'defensive nature'. Go through the pre-match thread and you will see the posts, advising against it, since we needed to attack and Mascherano was not needed in these situations.

At the start of the match, the pundits doled out this same dross about 2 holding midfielders- the phrase is the new 'zonal marking'. And yet, as the match went on, the same arsehole pundits who were so adament at the beginning against this, now changed their tune and were adamanet Rafa throw on Mascherano. Sad to say, but I see the same attitude on this forum- this thread specifically.

RAFA GAVE YOU WHAT YOU BLEDDY WANTED!
He started Keane and Torres! We attacked Everton! He did not put on Mascherano! Instead he kept his side attacking with the introduction of Yossi. Yes, he took off Torres, but really, our kid bottled it and like Robbie, hadn't really done superbly all night. It was the derby- there is another in a few days and I'd rather Torres be fit. Did anyone notice Rafa asking Torres around the 70th minute if he was still alright? He brought him off for a reason.

'Baffling decisions', my arse! You're too bloody agenda-driven to appreciate the decisions that has worked in our favour- and there have been lots. An ordinary manager will make the ordinary decisions; you know- the one's that seem obvious. Rafa has the balls to gamble with his decisions- based on his convictions. But hey- damned if he don't, damned if he does.


EDIT: And screw this Rafa leaving nonsense! The league is within our grasp. Get a freakin grip!
We don't have the bottle to win the league? Since when? Haven't we gone on quite long winning runs before? 2nd half of last season ring a bell- huh? What about our 11/12 match winning streaks 2005-2006/2206-2007, hah?  The title is still ours to lose!

No doubt if we win the league this year, you will all want to be counted in, but you don't have the bottle for the ride.

[Ron]

The similarity between Houllier and Benitez lies in the style of play.
Unadventurous and based on defence too much.
I know a good defence is important but sometimes I like to see gung ho attacking play, like we did against Wigan, to come back from behind twice to win the game. Maybe a little bit of English football would do us good every now and then. Just kick that ball forward and go after it. Other teams do it against us, why should we always look for the nice pass ?
I agree it should not be our main style of play, that would destroy our chances in Europe instantly. But when we are playing against Stoke, Hull, West Ham or Fulham, why not just keep battering that goal until one flies in ?
Actually, I'd rather have that and lose the game than settling for a goddamned one point, or a semi defeat as I like to call it.

[Strawberry Fields]

Remember Rafa's team is not quite there yet , but when and he does get it right we will be unstoppable { well i believe that} and yes i get angry etc after our defeats and draws and ask why he done and didn't do that.. but I'll support him 100% , even if some are fading and the board are not 100% behind him.

If all a manager really needs is other's patience then why ever change? why not give each manager at least 10 years?
If your arguement is Rafa won more than Fergie in his first seasons then why did we change Houllier who won more trophies (in terms of quantity only) than Rafa?
It's because of the way.

Some believe in Rafa's way (like you), some don't (like me).
You want to be the one that is right, I want you to be the one that is right because I'm also afraid of the dangers a managerial change can bring. I support Rafa, I wan't him to succeed but it doesn't mean I can't, at the same time, question whether is the right man.

[Fat Scouser]

What can I say Shanks, it was the Kikby years that done it mate.
(Bastard, I knew midget tossing was a rick soon as I posted it)

Right, I've got no graft today, but I'm determined not to get stuck in here again. I just popped into see what had been said behind me back. But with a night's sleep and no ale down me neck, I've realised this thread has actually cheered me up. Some great posts on here and the Doubters can be counted on one hand. And although he won't admit, I reckon even the OP has changed his mind.

Young uns like Young and Ignorant (Wrong name that lad) give me hope for the future. Shame there's not more like him on here and at the games. But don't take that wrong, I've said it many times, I know loads of good young reds who don't think LFC only exist just to entertain them. I see them at the games trying to get things going and I feel sorry for them.
You only had to fart on the kop and it started a song in my day. I know how horrible it is trying to get something going when you're surrounded by Nigel's from accounting who want you to stop bouncing because your ruining their photo opportunity. Yeah. I'm an aul arse but I still have a go. I can't stand this c*nt, but he excels himself here...
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=dy9rw5G_zUA

And believe it or not, chanting attack, attack, attack and supporting players like Lucas actually worked far better than moans, groans and boos.

Oh well, that's enough of me... me and me wee dog Tafffy are off to find some vertically challenged people.

[dobbouk]

I have to admit..................

great post. completely somes up how im feeling at the moment.

[Fruity]

When did Mr. Fergie say this ...

If i am truly honest i cant now remember. It was a post match interview so could have been chelsea, wigan or bolton. Basically said something along the lines of as we have not been in the title race before we wont know how to handle the pressure and those last few minutes in a game is when you need to keep your head blah blah. Then went on to say "our fans are used to this, but liverpool fans are not..." also said something than about chelsea being the only real threat.

they called it mind games afterwards but the reality is this is our biggest problem in a title run and its been happening for a while. The booing after the stoke 0-0 (i think it was that game) even though we were top of the league shows how early on we have struggled with being top and coping with the pressure. How must that felt if you were a player or the manager. You have managed to get top of the league and the fans still boo. I guess there has been such a negative mindset for nearly 20 years that most people will more comfortable when they can revert to type.

[Dr. Beaker]

Are we better placed this year than we were last year - answer: of course you tit.

Ah, but I suppose that just proves that we should have sacked him last year, doesn't it. It's all beginning to make sense now.

Carry on.

[rafabenihill]

The similarity between Houllier and Benitez lies in the style of play.
Unadventurous and based on defence too much.
I know a good defence is important but sometimes I like to see gung ho attacking play, like we did against Wigan, to come back from behind twice to win the game. Maybe a little bit of English football would do us good every now and then. Just kick that ball forward and go after it. Other teams do it against us, why should we always look for the nice pass ?
I agree it should not be our main style of play, that would destroy our chances in Europe instantly. But when we are playing against Stoke, Hull, West Ham or Fulham, why not just keep battering that goal until one flies in ?
Actually, I'd rather have that and lose the game than settling for a goddamned one point, or a semi defeat as I like to call it.

u must have been creaming over kevin keegan..

[rafabenihill]

what should we call these "skywashed" "consumers" who are denigrating rafa's every move but do not have the guts to openly call for his sacking when challenged to justify their rants? they arent exactly WUMs so we need something to describe this emerging new breed..

[royhendo]

I just have little faith in his ways.

Good to see you being honest SF.

Here's a question. If Man Utd, Arsenal, Aston Villa, Chelsea and now Man City have a shot at long-term financial stability, strength, and growth, and if two or three out of those have put effective long-term programmes in place that ensure they're going to work to get stronger and stronger over time, then wouldn't it be an idea to put in the hard graft to get our own foundations in place?

People should be careful what they wish for. We're in the process of transforming ourselves into a club that's able to hold its head above water for the long-term and actually (amazingly given the decline over the last 15 or more years) create something capable of dominating.

If you're not prepared to hold steady and wait for that to come to fruition, then you might get a short-term spike in results, and hten you can look forward to a good long spell in purgatory, followed by a decline into the Spurs style doldrums.

Villa are the perfect example for us just now. They're holding firm and letting things build steadily under a man with tenacity and ambition. People like that are in short supply in world football... so why get rid of the one you have when he's covated by most of the rest of the football world?

We can kid ourselves that we'll bag a Hiddink and have a year or two in the sun, but all that kind of thinking will do is set us back and let the people who are getting it right to bump us down the pecking order, both domestically and in Europe. And then we'll be fucked. We'll find out who the real fans are at least eh?

[the_red_pill]

I have to admit, I haven't read all the replies and discussion in this thread. As much more of a lurker than poster that's quite unusual for me, but I feel the need to post on this topic.

I'm a younger Red. Twenty-three.

I'd imagine most people calling reactionally for Rafa's head after losses(or even draws!) would be placed somewhere near my own age.

I can only vaguely remember football before Sky - sadly, against my own will, I am one of the Sky generation. We belong to a time of constant media exposure to our sport, constant headlines, constant debate, constant bullshit spouted out by pundits and experts without the balls to manage a club themselves or even go against the common perception of footballing cliches.

And it messes with your head. It messes with my head.

This is my first time experiencing a real, concrete challenge for this title we all want so fucking badly. And it tells on me. Every dropped point, every decision that goes against us, every word thrown out in a verbal sparring match. It fucking exhausts me.

But this is it.

This is what we - I, at least - begged for, for as long as I could remember. We are in there. Mixing it up. Trading blows with the from the East Lancs and those nobodies from London. Fighting for every point.

And when I remember that, I remember WHY every dropped point hurts - because they have never mattered as much as they do now. They have never counted as they do this season.

We have a chance. It hurts me when we drop points...but this is a fucking TITLE RACE. Something only those of us old enough to appreciate 1990 - which I cannot - can truly understand. We're in it! We're fighting for our crown.

Who brought us there?

That's all I ask.

If you will cast your mind back to 2004. Our top striker decides to leave because his home club, one of Europe's elite, cannot match his ambition. Our club had failed to reply to going one nil down to so long it had become a running joke. Laughed at even in our own league - and mocked, by proxy, by the actions of our best player - for our gutlessness and lack of ambition.

And in Europe...

Those four cups we all hold so dear seemed like long ago, distant memories, as revelant to those in my age group as tales of King Arthur and Excalbiur. Mere legends, fanciful tales spoken in bragging but sentimental tones around firesides the world over.

Rafael Benitez.

If you can remember where we were when he took over, you can remember what e, and he alone, brought us. Back to the forefront of European dominance. Replacing players like Diao and Diouf with the likes of Mascherano and Torres. Making us look like a real title contending team for the first time since...well, a very long time.

He takes abuse from our press, our own owners, and some of our fans. He faces an impossible mission - to restore a proud, but battered institution to its rightful place atop what is now the hardest league in the world to win.

And here we are, near February, fighting for it.

IN THE MIX.

And to all those pissing and moaning here, ask yourselves this- if you had been offered this position before the season started, would you have taken it?

Down the Lancs, all we heard and see is confidence, while here we splutter and worry and bite our nails like frightened little schoolgirls. I have been guilty of it myself at times this season. But we're undermining ourselves. Our players, our manager, our staff - OUR FUCKING TEAM - need us one and all behind them.

No in-fighting. No OOT vs Scouser. No superfan vs whopper. No optimist vs pessimist. No fucking nothing.

Our team needs us.

Rafa can takes us there, of that I truly believe. But only if we give him the chance. We've been starved too long, have waited patiently only to be denied time after time. It shows in our behaviour. Like a starved animal we squirm and howl and struggle in vain for what we need.

But our struggle has come close to ending - all we need now is the fucking bottle to see this through.

And if we fall short - is it Rafa's fault?

It took that piss stained fucking wino Ferguson many title challenges to win his first one - and look what followed.

Absolutely way better than I tried to say it, lad. We need to get perspective. Like I keep saying- we wanted a title challenge, now we've got it- deal with it. Bring 'em on, baby! I want this every year for the rest of my life, cause we're in it!

United will fall away as fatigue wears in. Chelsea is a safe bet as a challenger. I certainly give us more respect. If any other team lost only 1 game in the league and were 2nd- even after a few draws, we would've most likely regarded them as favourites, but since it's Liverpool, we don't. How.fucking.sad. Oh- the shambles! Lo, the idiots who will most likely celebrate with us, come May.

[paranoidmike]

Be not afraid,
for I have loved you always,
come, follow me,
and I will lead you home.


Keep the faith and it's ours


Faith people have the faith.

[Strawberry Fields]

Roy,
If you didn't see it before writing your post, I think that maybe I already answered you here:
http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=235985.msg5284400#msg5284400