Topic: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.

[SteveZissou]

Winning mentality is more important because:

Out of 5 games

if you win 3 and draw 2 = 11 points (similar to our ratio)
but if you win 4 and lose 1 = 12 points

Now then you don't need a time machine to realise this but it means that you can afford to lose some games if you're already on a good winning streak. 

If you take a risk against lower clubs (not afraid to attack them) then you are taking destiny into your own hands, instead of hoping you score one of your opportunities in a 0-0 game.  By taking a risk you can concede but if you believe you're better you should be scoring 3.  I've seen us achieve this in games against Man City when Rafa took a risk, and against Wigan we played 2 at the back and the opposition couldn't handle us after that.  But I think we only took a risk in these games 'cos we were losing.  Though good on Rafa to decide the momentum was with us and that we can keep attacking.

Not saying we should play 2 at the back, but we could at least risk one player - i.e. sometimes take out one defender (for example) and bring on an extra attacker.  We shouldn't be afraid of teams at the bottom of the table to do this.  If our defenders are good enough (plus a defensive midfielder) they should be able to handle counter attacks.  Of course you could remove a defensive midfielder instead of a defender and play a central midfielder who's also potentialy dangerous when we move forward on attack.  With that setup even on the break your defenders need to be good enough to handle the counter attack but it seems we're afraid of the counter which is why we keep the strong protection even against bottom clubs

[RK7]

And if we went for the win in both games and lost both?

Ever heard of the law of avarages. We would not have lost both. I remember watching United against Stoke  and with the score 0-0 Fergie took off Oshea at left back and put on Berbatov. Rafa would not have done this as has been proven over and over.

I can except that managers make mistakes and hindsight is a fine thing, but I find it impossible to understand why Rafa does not learn.

[FlashingBlade]

seize the day!..not the draw!

[Crackerjack Sam]

0-0 Fulham (H) - Didn't play well enough to win and no urgency
0-0 West Ham (H) - Were really unlucky not to win
0-0 Stoke (H) -  Were really unlucky not to win. That early goal is allowed and its a different ball game
0-0 Aston Villa (A) - Terrible, no urgency and barely any shots on goal
0-0 Stoke (A) - Trying not to lose rather that win

To be honest one of Keane or Torres should have started against Stoke on Sat. Everyone knows it. United are winning against Wigan right now and expect them to win at Bolton. Already these draws are costing us and will continue to cost us.

I actually agree with you there. I know Nando is coming back from injury and we can't rush into a game straight away. But this is the premier league...so  you might as well forget trying wrap one of your best players in cotton wool, hoping he won't get hurt again.
He didn't have to come as a sub. He could've started and when we established a lead taken off for Keane.
If he's trying to protect Nando, WHY NOT START KEANE?
Kuyt has neither pace or guile, doesn't win much in the air, and is really only good at holding the ball up. Truth is he has his moments and let's be fair they're only moments. Good workrate but is a extremely poor finisher his days up front are over.
Team selection has to be more daring, but I still believe the players selected are capable of getting results. Riera all day long on the left, Babel is still a mystery to me even though he has his moments and Yossi frustrates me more than Luis ever did and the thing is...he's capable of so much more, I still think he's wasted on the right.

Whether the players have the potential or the capability to be great players for LFC. They all have to pull together and play out their skins every damn week.
If we don't adopt a fighting mentality, we can expect more draws for the rest of the season. And I so do not want that to happen. I want by the of the season to see Stevie holding Premiership trophy aloft and us being crowned Champions of England.
If this dream is to be realised it is up to the players as to show some drive.

Can I get an Amen!

[Redshadow77]

I think some of the posters on here are wrong - Rafa' DOES go for it against most of the smaller teams - but sometimes he's made a mess of the team selection with WHICH to go for it rather than telling the team to sit back.  I also think they're A:) Not giving enough credit to the opposition sides who ALL have internationals and/or decent managers nowadays and B:) Have some sort of vague pathetic fear that I've seen in far to many of our fans and which that purple faced beetroot who manages the Mancs would love us to keep in that they seem to believe that the Mancs are 1:) Infalliable and won't lose OR draw any more games this season and 2:) CAN'T be passed should they go top on Saturday which is stupid.  Since if we beat Everton as we should we'll go back top for at least 2 weeks and has anyone seen the luck they're having with injuries and suspensions at present - they've lost Evra and Ferdinand for a while and Rooney came off injured tonight AND Tevez took a hard knock - all these factors and their gung-ho play (along with the fact they currently seem happy with 1 - 0's v smaller sides) WILL rebound on them at some point in the season, just as Real Madrid's and Barcelona's did in Spain for Rafa' - we just have to be in a position to capitalise on that when it happens.

And if you don't believe me an example of what I said is that We put out a team full of internationals v Fulham yet minus Alonso in the middle and as a result were played off the park in midfield until Alonso came on, without him on Saturday we started well but maintained that control for only 20 mins whilst against West Ham, we paid for not playing Agger in that we kept having to cover Hyppia's lack of pace at the back and thus couldn't attack enough (I've always said the REAL reason we did badly last year in Oct - Jan 2008 was down to Agger's absence and thus no pace at the back).  Against Villa, we had to change our plans mid game after beginning to dominate when Torres walked off injured and  Against Hull we payed for not trusting Insua over Dossena and we played very well after 20 mins whilst against Stoke at home anyone who says we played badly is an idiot since we had about 35 shots with 20 odd of them on target, hit the woodwork several times, had great saves pulled off v us AND a goal disallowed - where's the lack of intent in that?

No I think people aren't patient enough - The league is a marathon and Rafa' knows this - He plays the long game and puts his foot/his teams foot down on the accelerator when he thinks it will benefit them most (remember under Houllier when we tried to attack in 2002/2003's VERY early games, started to draw 'easy' games and then went back to being defensive or under Evans where we'd bombard teams and lose to just one shot from them ALL season long AND where we often ran out of steam come April/May? AND where we were so insignificant in the league that we weren't considered worth the 'mind' games - What Rafa' did at the weekend HAS had an effect you know? Not only were the Manc's denied a goal, penalty and red card in their favour on Sunday, but they also SHOULD have had at least one Red Card in their favour tonight for the challenge that injured Tevez (from Steve Bennett of all referees)  but instead only got a yellow.  They didn't play particularly well either so maybe the injuries ARE affecting them now - they hardly attacked without Evra and O'Shea looked shaky which Rafa' should bear in mind for March. 

Anyway, due to the league lasting so long, Rafa' only puts the foot down when he thinks we NEED to hence the long spell of indifferent performances and draws last season before we burnt off Everton for fourth in the home stretch from February to May - if we do that again this season and beat the Mancs and Chelsea on the way and I've STILL seen nothing to suggest we can't double them BOTH then I'll be happy as it'll mean we've done enough and should win the league - because mark my words - A:) United WILL drop more points at some time OTHER than when they play us and our present position is MORE than good enough for us to jump on that B:) Torres has been missing since October and not as yet up to speed (by his own admission) since the Preston game (hope it comes v Everton who he seems to like playing) and C:) Did ANY of you/us REALLY think it would be that easy? They're not going to hand it to us - to replace the kings in footballing terms, you have to fight for and take it - if we want to commit regicide on them then no-one can do it but ourselves - certainly not Chelsea now.  I'll be happy if in May we can say "the king (Man U) is dead, long live the King (Liverpool)" as everyone will know what THAT means;  And call me stupid, but for some unknown, nagging reason rather like in 2005 in the CL after the Juve' first game, I really do think that this season we will................................

[RAFA - 6 - 19]

Rafa will never play the all out attack, he has a history of coming from behind in title races as he believes his rotation methods and superior fitness will grind teams down and we will get stronger whilst others tire and their injuries mount up.  He also saves people for the second half of the season.  Plus he knows he can get by with lesser players in Europe this year keeping players fresh for the league.  Rafa wants the perfect balance. The best attack and the best defence. We had the most shots  last year!  If something is not right, rafa will compensate and will be cautious.  2 draws may be worse than a win and a loss but the psycholigocal damage of a loss may be very negative for the team.

Rafa will never go all out, the clean sheet is everything and gung ho football will never feature, we are pragmatic, cautious, tactical and drilled.

If people want and desire arsenal or united's brand of football they might as well look elsewhere and there is no point in pining for it, it will not happen at LFC.

There are parrallels to be drawn with valencia. Look at the criticism he received there and he drew with lesser teams in spain but finished strongly and delivered when it mattered.

I expect us to fall back even further and that is probably where our fans will ditch us but it will also be the perfect time to strike, we are better when from behind, when our backs are against the wall and we have to deliver.  Second will still be real progress and it is all well and good blaming some draws we have had but we were not good enough to win so we have to move on.

We have Torres to come back, Keane and Babel to click and the best all round footballler in the world who is also the biggest big game player of them all.

We have a particular style and an approach and we have to accept it as it will not change.  People want to see emotion, raw football skills and all out attack whereas we are a crushing machine, a ruthlessly efficient unit where the manager plans every detail.

Many fans give the impression that they would go in for a half time team talk and shout and gee up the players harry redknapp style whereas in reality the top managers rely on tactics and to compete on all fronts you have to be special and tactically aware and probably only a few managers are capable of winning the cl or the league in england even if they were managing chelsea or united.

Saying the players arent up for it is ridiculous, the players who feature for us regularly have pride, the whole world is on them, they need no extr motivation. If we act like nervous wrecks just watching the bloody game imagine what they are like on the pitch.

It has the makings of one of our best ever seasons yet the fans are disgruntled. If we lose a couple of games and drop to 2nd and look like staying there the fans will be pissed off and boo, how spoilt is that!  Lets enjoy what we are doing and roar the players past the finish line.

We are what we are, accept it!

[ALANM]

I have to agree that Rafa's team selection was poor on Saturday. Having a player who hasn't scored for 2 months on his own up front suggests Rafa was more focused on Fergie influencing refs than the game itself.

Putting the season into context though, we've drawn games that we deserved to win - Stoke and West Ham at home, plus the undeserved loss at Spurs. Equally we've won games that we didn't deserve to - 'Boro and Wigan, Standard Liege in CL qualifier (how priceless will that be if we win again in Rome?). That's football.  With the Chelsea and Mancs also dropping a lot of unexpected points, we are still very much in contention. What we must do now is treat every game as must win, and play with that attitude. If we do then we have every chance of landing major honours in May. Go for it!!

[Crackerjack Sam]

Anyway, due to the league lasting so long, Rafa' only puts the foot down when he thinks we NEED to hence the long spell of indifferent performances and draws last season before we burnt off Everton for fourth in the home stretch from February to May - if we do that again this season and beat the Mancs and Chelsea on the way and I've STILL seen nothing to suggest we can't double them BOTH then I'll be happy as it'll mean we've done enough and should win the league - because mark my words - A:) United WILL drop more points at some time OTHER than when they play us and our present position is MORE than good enough for us to jump on that B:) Torres has been missing since October and not as yet up to speed (by his own admission) since the Preston game (hope it comes v Everton who he seems to like playing) and C:) Did ANY of you/us REALLY think it would be that easy? They're not going to hand it to us - to replace the kings in footballing terms, you have to fight for and take it - if we want to commit regicide on them then no-one can do it but ourselves - certainly not Chelsea now.  I'll be happy if in May we can say "the king (Man U) is dead, long live the King (Liverpool)" as everyone will know what THAT means;  And call me stupid, but for some unknown, nagging reason rather like in 2005 in the CL after the Juve' first game, I really do think that this season we will................................

Good post. But I really like this last part.

[coffeehead]

I think some of the posters on here are wrong - Rafa' DOES go for it against most of the smaller teams - but sometimes he's made a mess of the team selection with WHICH to go for it rather than telling the team to sit back.  I also think they're A:) Not giving enough credit to the opposition sides who ALL have internationals and/or decent managers nowadays and B:) Have some sort of vague pathetic fear that I've seen in far to many of our fans and which that purple faced beetroot who manages the Mancs would love us to keep in that they seem to believe that the Mancs are 1:) Infalliable and won't lose OR draw any more games this season and 2:) CAN'T be passed should they go top on Saturday which is stupid.  Since if we beat Everton as we should we'll go back top for at least 2 weeks and has anyone seen the luck they're having with injuries and suspensions at present - they've lost Evra and Ferdinand for a while and Rooney came off injured tonight AND Tevez took a hard knock - all these factors and their gung-ho play (along with the fact they currently seem happy with 1 - 0's v smaller sides) WILL rebound on them at some point in the season, just as Real Madrid's and Barcelona's did in Spain for Rafa' - we just have to be in a position to capitalise on that when it happens.

Sorry mate, but you just don't seem to get it: of course Utd WILL drop more points this season but so will we. And history shows that over a season they'll will lose few points than us. Unless we have a drastic change in our approach I see no reason why history won't be repeated this year as it has been every year in recent times.

The picture you are painting is that we have to rely on our rivals losing more points than us rather than rely on US playing better and getting more points in the first place.

[Strawberry Fields]

When I said in the summer that our problem isn't necessarily the games against the other top 3 but the games against the lesser teams, games in which we need enough creativity and urgency in order to win - most people disagreed.
In a way I'm glad I'm not wrong because a record against the likes of Stoke should be easier, on paper, to fix.

Some say that when we'll have a better squad with better attacking options it'll solve our problems against these teams and while that makes sense I believe that only when we'll have a different approach to the game from both players and manager we'll see the change. Players to play with more uregency and manager to stop holding on to his cards. As someone said before... unleash the mad dogs and try to go for the kill, preferably before it seems a little too late, sometimes even before the games start.
When the manager comes out after a game like Stoke and says: "we have to be pleased we have one more point" - this is where the problem lies.

At the begining of the season with games against Wigan and Man City I thought... Finally, here's the change I wanted to see but apperantly if we're not losing the game and the other team doesn't have a man sent off we don't take the necessary actions to win the game at all cost.
Just like I said in a different thread... Above all the tactics and ball possession this is what it's all about. Simple first grade math.
He who dares the most will be he who wins the most, even if he picks more loses along the way. Simple.
I think everyone will agree that a defeat to Spurs away when playing really well and being very unlucky is much easier to swallow than draws like the ones we recently endured.

I've been known as someone with a short fuse and going mad when Rafa makes decisions I disagree with that earned me the custom title beneath my username. This isn't one of those moments. Sometimes I think (with great sadness) that maybe Rafa is like a Chef. Working hard to prepare a meal and letting someone else enjoy it. I would be more than happy to be proven wrong though.

[west_london_red]

First of all drawing with Villa away wasnt a bad result and shouldnt be mentioned when looking at the dissapointing draws.

The main problem I see is that we dont have enough attackers in the team. Our normal formation has Reira, Torres or Keane, Gerrard and Kuyt as 4 attacking players with all the other players very rarely chipping in with a goal or a set up. Our left & right backs very rarely set up goals or are involved in their build ups, and Aggar and Carra hardly every chip in when you compare them to the likes of Vidic or Ferdinand. The biggest culprit in this is probably Xabi. Not knocking him one bit and hes having a good season, but he needs to get forward more. A player of his ability should be scoring 10 goals a season in my opinion.

The other area where we need to improve to turn these draws into wins is set pieces, especially corners. How many times do you see 0-0 become 1-0 after someone heads in a corner or scramble it over the line. When were playing at home against the smaller teams we usually have loads of corners, but we're virtually toothless when it comes to scoring. Too many corners are played short and dont even reach the box.

[RAFA - 6 - 19]

i hate that singared quote

history shows united usually do better but then again a rival has not had the best striker in the world fresh and hungry before

[jckliew]

"We are top but we know that we are there (basically on the same points as we had last season) partly because United and Chelsea have not scored as many points as they normally would at this stage.
"

In a nutshell, thats true. Even the best of supporters have to recognise this.

The conservative approach to PL games will never win the PL in the end. This is the chnace for a long long time. Mancs and Crapski are sputtering yet, Rafas stubbiornly refuse to do it the effective way.

1 win is more important than 2  0-0 draws

[RAFA - 6 - 19]

Ever heard of the law of avarages. We would not have lost both. I remember watching United against Stoke  and with the score 0-0 Fergie took off Oshea at left back and put on Berbatov. Rafa would not have done this as has been proven over and over.

I can except that managers make mistakes and hindsight is a fine thing, but I find it impossible to understand why Rafa does not learn.

he has one of the highest rates of subs scoring there is. It will not work every time and because of the media etc people believe what they want to believe and analyse everything to the nth degree.

Your luck has to run out sometime.

Go through and do all the ifs and buts for the liege game, boro, city, wigan, sunderland and a few others!  We could be 6th or 7th!

[coffeehead]

Rafa will never play the all out attack, he has a history of coming from behind in title races as he believes his rotation methods and superior fitness will grind teams down and we will get stronger whilst others tire and their injuries mount up. 

But four season of being at the helm at Liverpool has shown that not to be meaningful in any way. He may believe that but that approach hasn't delivered a title or even a close title run.

2 draws may be worse than a win and a loss but the psychological damage of a loss may be very negative for the team.

Not for a team confident in their abilities, and that confidence may well only come from going for it, losing now and then and getting back up again.

I expect us to fall back even further and that is probably where our fans will ditch us but it will also be the perfect time to strike, we are better when from behind, when our backs are against the wall and we have to deliver.  Second will still be real progress and it is all well and good blaming some draws we have had but we were not good enough to win so we have to move on.

Eh? how does that work? If we fall behind - esp. if we fall behind further than three or four points off the leaders than we have no say in the matter; we aren't really in a position to 'strike back'. All we can do is hope for the leaders to fall down - in other words, out of our hands. NOT a good position to be in

[Tom_B]

First post is spot on.

[RAFA - 6 - 19]

how can rafa have realistically expected to have been in a race before now?
We are in one now and long may it continue but we cant expect to taste victory without tasting th ebitterness of defeat.
Leapfrogging from 4th to 1st would save everyone a lot of anguish.
Missing out makes you hungrier but it seems the fans are not ready to accept coming 2nd this year and then push on and win it, some seem to give the impression it will be an awful season and will also blame rafa.

4 years is nothing, look how long it took fergie and look at him now and how different it is now

We come up with the goods last minute so many times, do people expect it to happen every game?

People are just not realistic

However i do agree with parts of the op in that some decisions are baffling such as kuyt starting up top as this is unlikely to lead to goals but i dont agree with blaming rafa if we dont win the league. We will win it with rafa's methods and this season may be too early

[royhendo]

But four season of being at the helm at Liverpool has shown that not to be meaningful in any way. He may believe that but that approach hasn't delivered a title or even a close title run.

Hold on mate - lest we forget the context, we've had a snowball's chance in hell of putting in a meaningful title challenge thus far under Rafa.

The o.p from Shanks1965 makes a very valid point, but let's not go too far the other way eh?

[Fordy]

Interesting stat from another thread. Its comparing 2nd part of the season to the 1st part over the years:

07/08 39 points in the 2nd part 37 points in the first part
06/07  34 points in the 2nd part 34 points in the first part
05/06 41 points in the 2nd part and 41 points in the 1st part
04/05 27 points in the second part and 27 as well I think in the 1st part

So apart from last year, with only 2 more points gained, its basically been the same level of performance all year round.

With these stats how can people state you're better in the second hald of the season or Rafa saves it all for the second half. Think this comes from we normally have a poor 1st half of the season and the 2nd half cant get any worse.

[RAFA - 6 - 19]

Interesting stat from another thread. Its comparing 2nd part of the season to the 1st part over the years:

07/08 39 points in the 2nd part 37 points in the first part
06/07  34 points in the 2nd part 34 points in the first part
05/06 41 points in the 2nd part and 41 points in the 1st part
04/05 27 points in the second part and 27 as well I think in the 1st part

So apart from last year, with only 2 more points gained, its basically been the same level of performance all year round.

With these stats how can people state you're better in the second hald of the season or Rafa saves it all for the second half. Think this comes from we normally have a poor 1st half of the season and the 2nd half cant get any worse.

Havent we been the best out of everyone in the second half a few times under rafa though?
As i saw this mentioned a lot on here and then realised we were only a point better off than chelsea in the second half the season before last and then dismissed it as it sounds good but in reality is only minor.

Am sure it has happened at least twice under rafa

[Notayesman]

Interesting stat from another thread. Its comparing 2nd part of the season to the 1st part over the years:

07/08 39 points in the 2nd part 37 points in the first part
06/07  34 points in the 2nd part 34 points in the first part
05/06 41 points in the 2nd part and 41 points in the 1st part
04/05 27 points in the second part and 27 as well I think in the 1st part

So apart from last year, with only 2 more points gained, its basically been the same level of performance all year round.

With these stats how can people state you're better in the second hald of the season or Rafa saves it all for the second half. Think this comes from we normally have a poor 1st half of the season and the 2nd half cant get any worse.

The illusion probably comes from the fact that the big CL games which we've traditionally done well in all arrive in the 2nd half of the season. Like you say though it seems there's fuck all difference in league form.

[LFCfan4Life]

The illusion probably comes from the fact that the big CL games which we've traditionally done well in all arrive in the 2nd half of the season. Like you say though it seems there's fuck all difference in league form.

its not really an illusion is it if we have managed to beat a lot of the favs in the second half of the season compared with the first?

but in terms of league points its been equal from the above but how many times have we made 4th and decided we would just try out the kids and fringe players for the last 4-5 league games because we were in 4th/3rd and couldn't be moved. the real test will come when we are in for the league, the cl and the fa cup towards the end

im so glad torres and keane are fresh atm if we manage that and stay in touch/No.1

[Fordy]

Havent we been the best out of everyone in the second half a few times under rafa though?
As i saw this mentioned a lot on here and then realised we were only a point better off than chelsea in the second half the season before last and then dismissed it as it sounds good but in reality is only minor.

Am sure it has happened at least twice under rafa

Not sure but you have remember that they tends to be a breathing space for the top team so they tend to ease off a little while battling for 4th you cant afford to as getting in to the Champions league is the least the top 4 clubs hope for and is a must.

[Art Vandelay]

It's important to win.
If you don't win, it's important not to lose.

Makes sense to me.

[coffeehead]

Hold on mate - lest we forget the context, we've had a snowball's chance in hell of putting in a meaningful title challenge thus far under Rafa.

The o.p from Shanks1965 makes a very valid point, but let's not go too far the other way eh?

I understand what you're saying; my point was only with regard to the notion that players will be fitter and we'll finish stronger than our rivals in the second half of the season. As I understand it, regardless of the players, that hasn't happened in any meaningful way and as our rivals will continue to improve while we have about £2.50 to spend...

[Fordy]

It's important to win.
If you don't win, it's important not to lose.

Makes sense to me.

Not as simple as that though is it. Or you could just end up with 38 points. One is more important than the other and surely its to win.

[royhendo]

I understand what you're saying; my point was only with regard to the notion that players will be fitter and we'll finish stronger than our rivals in the second half of the season. As I understand it, regardless of the players, that hasn't happened in any meaningful way and as our rivals will continue to improve while we have about £2.50 to spend...

Well, the converse is that we've beaten our own previous record by 7 points in the first half of the season without key players for long spells, so there's every reason to expect we'll similarly beat our record for the run-in, no?

And apologies mate, I'm in a massive funk tonight with this Agger news.

[beauty]

If we finished aginst Stoke with Keane, Babel, Torres, Kuyt, Gerrard and possibly Riera, I wouldn't feel so bad as at least we would have felt we went for it. Ideally it would have been nice to start with these 6 and create some chances and surely net one. We finished with a shed load of attackers against City for example, granted they were down to 10 men, but you just get the feeling all out attack especially away from home, with the way we counter attack, these draws would/could be 3 pointers. And if we fucked up in a few what the hell, draws kill us every year competing wise.

[RAFA - 6 - 19]

I understand what you're saying; my point was only with regard to the notion that players will be fitter and we'll finish stronger than our rivals in the second half of the season. As I understand it, regardless of the players, that hasn't happened in any meaningful way and as our rivals will continue to improve while we have about £2.50 to spend...

i see what you are saying but in the past rafa has concentrated on the cl and aimed for 4th knowing he didnt have the team for the title. SO i think this will be the first time to test his methods properly and will the fans only give him one chance?

We usually match or fall slightly below the others and for once we are at the top at this time. Even if we go a point behind on sat, everyone would have taken that pre season plus we can go top again on monday!

This season we play before united quite a lot so at least it is them always playing catch up.

Plus in no toher season have we had the best striker in the world raring to go!

[Art Vandelay]

Not as simple as that though is it. Or you could just end up with 38 points. One is more important than the other and surely its to win.

Well obviously the hope is to win every game.  But if you cannot win, one point is more than no points.

[horne]

i think rafa should go for it more too...i mean the difference between not going for it and getting the draw is only one point
it sends out the wrong signal to his attacking goal scorers too
having said that ...hes our gaffa and you just have to back him,and trust that he will get us there.
he has got us closer and closer so patience is the key

[Fordy]

i see what you are saying but in the past rafa has concentrated on the cl and aimed for 4th knowing he didnt have the team for the title. SO i think this will be the first time to test his methods properly and will the fans only give him one chance?

We usually match or fall slightly below the others and for once we are at the top at this time. Even if we go a point behind on sat, everyone would have taken that pre season plus we can go top again on monday!

This season we play before united quite a lot so at least it is them always playing catch up.

Plus in no toher season have we had the best striker in the world raring to go!

Messi is the best forward in the world right now by a country mile but hey that Torres is good.

The bottom line is mate Rafa has to start showing he wants this and he isnt scared to go all out to win it or no matter what team we have we wont win the league because play Kuyt on his own sends out all the wrong signs.

[LFCfan4Life]

Messi is the best forward in the world right now by a country mile but hey that Torres is good.

Torres = best striker/forward in the world and Messi = best winger in the world there is room for both

its very important because they do actually play different positions

and Kuyt up top on his own is suicide - also what was sky sports on about him leaving they said that much and i never heard anything else

[Timbo's Goals]

Winning mentality is more important because:

Out of 5 games

if you win 3 and draw 2 = 11 points (similar to our ratio)
but if you win 4 and lose 1 = 12 points

Now then you don't need a time machine to realise this but it means that you can afford to lose some games if you're already on a good winning streak. 

If you take a risk against lower clubs (not afraid to attack them) then you are taking destiny into your own hands, instead of hoping you score one of your opportunities in a 0-0 game.  By taking a risk you can concede but if you believe you're better you should be scoring 3.  I've seen us achieve this in games against Man City when Rafa took a risk, and against Wigan we played 2 at the back and the opposition couldn't handle us after that.  But I think we only took a risk in these games 'cos we were losing.  Though good on Rafa to decide the momentum was with us and that we can keep attacking.

Not saying we should play 2 at the back, but we could at least risk one player - i.e. sometimes take out one defender (for example) and bring on an extra attacker.  We shouldn't be afraid of teams at the bottom of the table to do this.  If our defenders are good enough (plus a defensive midfielder) they should be able to handle counter attacks.  Of course you could remove a defensive midfielder instead of a defender and play a central midfielder who's also potentialy dangerous when we move forward on attack.  With that setup even on the break your defenders need to be good enough to handle the counter attack but it seems we're afraid of the counter which is why we keep the strong protection even against bottom clubs

That's all very well - but you can't change the philosophy of the manager. If you want Rafa to take on board this idea then you don't win European Cups. Rafa has a plan and it doesn't involve going for it big time if there is a risk of losing. You either accept that or you don't.

You can't pick and choose between the league and the CL. If he goes all out for it and we lose the odd game you mention, that could work in the league. But you can't expect the team, backroom staff and all to have that same idea when the big games come up in the CL.

Example, say we're drawing 0-0 against Real Madrid in the last 10 minutes in the first leg, do you want us to take a defender off and play with 3/4 strikers? Or do you want to keep the draw for Anfield? At that stage of the game, of course we'd all take the 0-0 draw - a great result. The preparation and planning that goes into that scenario is put in place weeks before kick off. And, usually with Rafa - it works a treat.

You can't then, not in this season's Premier League, expect that CL philosophy to be completely disregarded when you play a tricky 5.30pm game against Stoke.

As I say, Rafa has a plan - and you can't pick and choose when he's a tactical genius or not just because we don't win.

[coffeehead]

Well, the converse is that we've beaten our own previous record by 7 points in the first half of the season without key players for long spells, so there's every reason to expect we'll similarly beat our record for the run-in, no?

Very true. I'm quite optimistic; the only fly in the ointment is that Man U are on course to almost equal their halfway points tally from last year as well. All in all if everything follows the same path in the second half of the season they'll pip us to the title by a point or two.

And apologies mate, I'm in a massive funk tonight with this Agger news.

Know exactly how you feel

[jckliew]

Not as simple as that though is it. Or you could just end up with 38 points. One is more important than the other and surely its to win.

Aye thats for relegation candi like stoke, not for title contenders, surely?

[redscotch]

Plus we've not had Torres for ages. Now he's back fit, just watch us go.

[heatseeker]

BLESS 'EM ALL
YOU WAFFLINGGITS

[jckliew]

"You can't then, not in this season's Premier League, expect that CL philosophy to be completely disregarded when you play a tricky 5.30pm game against Stoke. "

Its only tricky when you think its tricky. Its only tricky when you dont have confidence in your players to do the job.

Does Rafa have the confidence in his players?   You have to ask him that....

[LFCfan4Life]

Very true. I'm quite optimistic; the only fly in the ointment is that Man U are on course to almost equal their halfway points tally from last year as well.

they have played 19 and got 41 points thats halfway less than last season im sure

so they didnt equal it and impossible for them to do that since we are past that point

"You can't then, not in this season's Premier League, expect that CL philosophy to be completely disregarded when you play a tricky 5.30pm game against Stoke. "

Its only tricky when you think its tricky. Its only tricky when you dont have confidence in your players to do the job.

Does Rafa have the confidence in his players?   You have to ask him that....

stoke play with a narrow small pitch in an aim to defend like anything and hit on a counter  from looking at them they have 10 6ft plus players in their starting 11. what the hell was keane going to do against them? he would have been swatted like a fly just like lucas and masch.

he is not the person for an ultra physical game and torres was coming back from injury

he could have gone with N'gog but i suspect even he would have been out of his depth