Author Topic: #SHANKLY100 Bill Shankly..................... Genius ?  (Read 9657 times)

Offline vicgill

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#SHANKLY100 Bill Shankly..................... Genius ?
« on: December 19, 2008, 09:51:17 AM »
This is an extract from Chapter 7 of my life story which has the working title “In My Life”.

I am posting this because I think it may be of interest to some RAWKites and may give a little insight to Mr. Shankly’s attitude toward the FA Coaching School of that time.

I had just arrived in Calpe on the Costa Blanca, Spain. My brother Derek had been living there since 1973 and had been a massive help to me, finding me somewhere to live and introducing me to both his English and Spanish friends, one of whom became a very good friend to me, Joaqine.

So here is the extract;

Through Derek, Joaqine had learned something of my football history (no doubt exaggerated a little, my brother was my biggest fan) and one morning Joaqine knocked on our door and told me he had been to see the Mayor of Calpe about the possibility of me becoming a football coach at the local club, Calpe CF. Apparently the coach for the “Infantiles” (12 to 14 age group) had retired and they were having difficulty finding a replacement.

An appointment was made for me to meet the directors of the club, it wasn’t so much an interview, more like a piss up and the evening ended with everybody agreeing that I was the man for the job. I was told to start the very next training night.

The thought of becoming a coach had never entered my head but I must admit I was rather taken by the idea, although I didn’t have any coaching qualifications, the obvious problem for me was that my Spanish was crap but I knew that I could demonstrate any ideas I wanted to get across to the boys.

I spent the night before my first training session trying to remember the training methods used at Melwood and getting them down on paper in some sort of sensible sequence. I didn’t want to look a complete prat in front of the boys.

I took heart from an occasion I remembered, I was sitting in Mr. Shankly’s office at Anfield and as usual we were talking football and drinking tea. His secretary knocked and entered, she had a pile of letters and put them down on Mr. Shankly’s desk and left. We carried on talking while he started to read them, some of the letters he put on the desk and some he put in the bin; this bothered me a little because I thought that they were fan letters.

I asked him if they were fan letters and he laughed, he said “No son, we have a vacancy for a youth team coach, the letters on the desk I will read later, the ones going in the bin have FA Coaching badges”.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I arranged the training sessions just as I remembered them at Melwood.

© 2006 V. Gill
 
I was wondering if anybody here on RAWK had heard anything similar about Mr. Shankly's attitude to FA Coaching qualifications.
« Last Edit: August 6, 2013, 10:07:17 AM by vicgill »
"Football is a simple game based on the giving and taking of passes, of controlling the ball and making yourself available to receive a pass, it is really that simple"

"Friend, mourn not, though he premature departs, his wisdom marches on within our hearts"
  
RIP Ray Osbourne, comrade, epic swindler, and Internet Terrorist Extraordinaire.

Offline In Fowler We Trust

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Re: Bill Shankly..................... Genius ?
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2008, 10:04:26 AM »
Look forward to every installment - can just imagine Shanks doing that
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Offline Veinticinco de Mayo

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Re: Bill Shankly..................... Genius ?
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2008, 10:09:44 AM »
Excellent story that Vic, thanks for sharing it with us.  I suppose it is inevitable given the way the system works, but those that learn their trade through the FA channels are always going to be years behind those who do as Rafa did and take a year out to go and study the methods being used by the most innovative and successful coaches of the day. 
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Re: Bill Shankly..................... Genius ?
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2008, 10:30:19 AM »
thanks vic - that's superb :)

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Re: Bill Shankly..................... Genius ?
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2008, 10:40:09 AM »
I think there's no question about it, the man was a bona fide football genius.
Thanks for posting Vic, great read as ever.
It's true to say that if Shankly had told us to invade Poland we'd be queuing up 10 deep all the way from Anfield to the Pier Head.

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Re: Bill Shankly..................... Genius ?
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2008, 10:42:42 AM »
Superb that
"I'm a people man. Only the people matter".
-Bill Shankly.

Offline vicgill

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Re: Bill Shankly..................... Genius ?
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2008, 10:57:34 AM »
Excellent story that Vic, thanks for sharing it with us.  I suppose it is inevitable given the way the system works, but those that learn their trade through the FA channels are always going to be years behind those who do as Rafa did and take a year out to go and study the methods being used by the most innovative and successful coaches of the day. 

Yes Kev that's true, I think I am right in saying that Helenio Herrera (Spelling) Manager of the mighty Inter came to Melwood in late 1964 ( not sure of the date) to watch Mr.Shankly's training methods. he was arguably the best coach in the world at that time.(Helenio Herrera)
« Last Edit: December 19, 2008, 11:07:35 AM by vicgill »
"Football is a simple game based on the giving and taking of passes, of controlling the ball and making yourself available to receive a pass, it is really that simple"

"Friend, mourn not, though he premature departs, his wisdom marches on within our hearts"
  
RIP Ray Osbourne, comrade, epic swindler, and Internet Terrorist Extraordinaire.

Offline Veinticinco de Mayo

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Re: Bill Shankly..................... Genius ?
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2008, 10:58:22 AM »
Just realised I never answered the question.

Genius - without doubt. 

"I believe the only way to live and be truly successful is by collective effort"
 
Plenty on here who could do with taking that on board.


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Re: Bill Shankly..................... Genius ?
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2008, 11:11:21 AM »
oh yeah... yes

;D

on the point of herrera vic - in the archie mcpherson biog of jock stein there's a great passage on how stein hoodwinked herrera when they knew their training was being watched before the final in 67. it's no secret that he and shanks were close, and you can bet shanks had some input into the things that happened on the day.

it went down to detailed things like when they were in the tunnel, stein had apparently told bertie auld to get in the italians' faced and wind them up, so wee bertie was singing celtic songs and going up and saying 'hey cesar romero - you better call yer ma and tell her you'll be crying tonight' and stuff like that. then when the ref gave the go-ahead to go on to the park, the subbie goalkeeper for celtic sprinted out and 'bagsed' the left-hand bench - apparently stein found out that herrera was superstitious and had arranged to get his favoured bench for the game.

so yes, a genius, and a man who kept the company of geniuses.

Offline shanklyboy

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Re: Bill Shankly..................... Genius ?
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2008, 11:32:40 AM »
Great stuff Vic......keep it coming.
I think it's a misconception that people have about Shanks being totally against any formal coaching qualifications.
From all the books I've read and the things I've heard and seen he was far from it.
I think his problem in a nutshell was The F.A. and their outdated theories on how the game should be taught.

There's the well known tale about how Shanks, Bob, Joe etc attended courses and ended up taking the classes themselves. Though Shanks subsequently gave them a wide berth, the others still went back for more.

Shanks approach was far more practical. He took all the things he needed from his experiences as player at various clubs and used what he wanted.
Our journeys into Europe were a constant source of inspiration to Shanks and he was always the first to 'steal' anything, from any coach he thought could be added to his coaching armoury. He always came across as having a massive respect for forward thinking coaches, especially ones that he had seen first hand getting something over on us.
Picking the brains of the opposition was a common theme at European away games.
This was also carried on into the Bootroom tradition of the coaches doing the same thing over a beer with unsuspecting opposition managers.
The simplification of explanation and application always at the forefront of his mind. He dealt with working class men in a manner they could relate to.

Having attended many F.A Courses over the years I can understand why Shanks was reluctant to fall for most of it.
They still want to churn out 'clones', who walk, dress, talk and move in exactly the same way.
Freethinking and innovation is in many ways still frowned upon.
Nothing changes.


« Last Edit: December 19, 2008, 11:39:25 AM by shanklyboy »
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Offline shanklyboy

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Re: Bill Shankly..................... Genius ?
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2008, 11:43:24 AM »
I too forgot to answer the question.
Genius?

The concept of genius, in literary theory and literary history, derives from the later 18th century, when it began to be distinguished from ingenium in a discussion of the genius loci, or "spirit of the place." It was a way of discussing essence, in that each place was supposed to have its own unique and immutable nature, but this essence was determinant, in that all persons of a place would be infused or inspired by that nature.

Without doubt.
The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate, contrived and dishonest — but the myth — persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.

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www.savelfc.org

Offline vicgill

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Re: Bill Shankly..................... Genius ?
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2008, 11:47:09 AM »
Great stuff Vic......keep it coming.
I think it's a misconception that people have about Shanks being totally against any formal coaching qualifications.
From all the books I've read and the things I've heard and seen he was far from it.
I think his problem in a nutshell was The F.A. and their outdated theories on how the game should be taught.

There's the well known tale about how Shanks, Bob, Joe etc attended courses and ended up taking the classes themselves. Though Shanks subsequently gave them a wide berth, the others still went back for more.

Shanks approach was far more practical. He took all the things he needed from his experiences as player at various clubs and used what he wanted.
Our journeys into Europe were a constant source of inspiration to Shanks and he was always the first to 'steal' anything, from any coach he thought could be added to his coaching armoury. He always came across as having a massive respect for forward thinking coaches, especially ones that he had seen first hand getting something over on us.
Picking the brains of the opposition was a common theme at European away games.
This was also carried on into the Bootroom tradition of the coaches doing the same thing over a beer with unsuspecting opposition managers.
The simplification of explanation and application always at the forefront of his mind. He dealt with working class men in a manner they could relate to.

Having attended many F.A Courses over the years I can understand why Shanks was reluctant to fall for most of it.
They still want to churn out 'clones', who walk, dress, talk and move in exactly the same way.
Freethinking and innovation is in many ways still frowned upon.
Nothing changes.


I think that is the answer mate, didn't Ian St John say something similar on that program on .TV  Shankly V Paisley
"Football is a simple game based on the giving and taking of passes, of controlling the ball and making yourself available to receive a pass, it is really that simple"

"Friend, mourn not, though he premature departs, his wisdom marches on within our hearts"
  
RIP Ray Osbourne, comrade, epic swindler, and Internet Terrorist Extraordinaire.

Offline vicgill

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Re: Bill Shankly..................... Genius ?
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2008, 12:02:41 PM »
oh yeah... yes

 ;D

on the point of herrera vic - in the archie mcpherson biog of jock stein there's a great passage on how stein hoodwinked herrera when they knew their training was being watched before the final in 67. it's no secret that he and shanks were close, and you can bet shanks had some input into the things that happened on the day.

it went down to detailed things like when they were in the tunnel, stein had apparently told bertie auld to get in the italians' faced and wind them up, so wee bertie was singing celtic songs and going up and saying 'hey cesar romero - you better call yer ma and tell her you'll be crying tonight' and stuff like that. then when the ref gave the go-ahead to go on to the park, the subbie goalkeeper for celtic sprinted out and 'bagsed' the left-hand bench - apparently stein found out that herrera was superstitious and had arranged to get his favoured bench for the game.

so yes, a genius, and a man who kept the company of geniuses.

I remeber that well Roy, I have a couple of lovely pictures of Jock Stein and Bill Shankly together, unfortunately I can't get to them at the moment.
"Football is a simple game based on the giving and taking of passes, of controlling the ball and making yourself available to receive a pass, it is really that simple"

"Friend, mourn not, though he premature departs, his wisdom marches on within our hearts"
  
RIP Ray Osbourne, comrade, epic swindler, and Internet Terrorist Extraordinaire.

Offline Uncle Ronnie

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Re: Bill Shankly..................... Genius ?
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2008, 12:04:18 PM »
I remember a story about Don Howe taking a training session at Lilleshall. He lined up the players in a 442 and put yellow bibs on the midfielders. He then said to the defenders, "Right, don't hit the canaries".

How is the English system so far behind technically compared to central Europe?!?

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Re: Bill Shankly..................... Genius ?
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2008, 12:18:25 PM »
I remember a story about Don Howe taking a training session at Lilleshall. He lined up the players in a 442 and put yellow bibs on the midfielders. He then said to the defenders, "Right, don't hit the canaries".

How is the English system so far behind technically compared to central Europe?!?

Aggghh. Charlie fucking Hughes and the percentage game.  Another message for posters on here.  This is what happens if you think that football can be measured by statistics.
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Re: Bill Shankly..................... Genius ?
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2008, 01:14:07 PM »
Vic/shanklyboy thanks for reminding me on just how good RAWK can be at times.

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Re: Bill Shankly..................... Genius ?
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2008, 01:17:42 PM »

I remeber that well Roy, I have a couple of lovely pictures of Jock Stein and Bill Shankly together, unfortunately I can't get to them at the moment.

I had a nice moment on the train a few years back vic...

I live in Dundee but I used to work in London for a long time and commute up and down every weekend. Anyway, one Friday night I was reading Archie McPherson's biography of Stein (which is absolutely f_cking brilliant by the way) and the conductor sits down next to me. I was thinking "aye aye, what's happening here?" but the guy says "Great book that. I knew the big man you know..."

Turns out he was a Dunfermline fan and his mum worked at the club. At the time, Stein had moved from Dumfermline to Celtic, but the conductor's Dad was big into the greyhounds, as was the big man, and they were big mates.

Anyway, he said one night his Mum came up and woke him up in his bedroom, and said 'I've got a surprise for you'. He came down into the kitchen, and round the kitchen table, brewing up a pot of tea and starting another marathon football and 'dugs chat, were his Dad, Jock Stein, and Bill Shankly.

Imagine that. He said it was the best moment of his life and he was only a wee boy.

Here's the link to the Stein biog:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Jock-Stein-Definitive-Archie-Macpherson/dp/1905156375/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217417985&sr=8-1

McPherson's like the Scottish equivalent of Motty.

Offline Veinticinco de Mayo

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Re: Bill Shankly..................... Genius ?
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2008, 01:35:42 PM »
Brilliant story that Roy.

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Offline Manila Vanilla

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Re: Bill Shankly..................... Genius ?
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2008, 01:53:47 PM »
Vic/shanklyboy thanks for reminding me on just how good RAWK can be at times.

Exactly! I'm tempted to say "great thread".....

I've alway thought that the sign of a great manager is:

1. To spot a great player when he's still a bargain.
2. To convince him that he's a great player.

plus a bit of what we now call "mind games"...

Paisley was the master of 1 (though Shanks was good too) and Shanks was the master of 2.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2008, 01:55:46 PM by Manila Vanilla »

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Re: Bill Shankly..................... Genius ?
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2008, 02:25:45 PM »
Keep them coming Vic.

And yes, I think Shanks was undoubtedly a genius. It's not widely known that after his shock departure from Anfield, Shanks actually helped John Neal at Wrexham. Wrexham were arguably the best 'footballing' side in the lower divisions for a season or two, and on the strength of his work there (and a few giant-killing performances in the Cup and European ties) Neal went on to manage Chelsea.

I know this because I did my Welsh F.A badges with Alvan Williams, Mike Smith and John Neal. Happy days.
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Re: Bill Shankly..................... Genius ?
« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2008, 02:40:15 PM »
Shanks probably the most positive influence in my life "genius" ?...the word is not GREAT enough IMO!
Shanks: "Some people believe football is a matter of life and  death, I am very disappointed with that attitude. I can assure you it is much, much more important than that. - At a football club, there's a holy trinity - the players, the manager and the supporters. Directors don't come into it"

Offline Huytonian

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Re: Bill Shankly..................... Genius ?
« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2008, 02:42:56 PM »
Vic/shanklyboy thanks for reminding me on just how good RAWK can be at times.

That's exactly what I was thinking. Really like the Jock Stein/Inter story!
« Last Edit: December 19, 2008, 02:51:45 PM by Huytonian »

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Re: Bill Shankly..................... Genius ?
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2008, 03:09:57 PM »
by the way (and this is a while off but fingers crossed we can manage it) i'd like to try and dredge up the bbc 'arena' documentary on shanks, stein and busby ("the football men") and get another dvd vine going for it and related doccos...  i know one of our number might have it but maybe some of you guys do... do you? it was willie mcilvanney who narrated it.

if any of you guys have it or similar then please pm

:)

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Re: Bill Shankly..................... Genius ?
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2008, 03:32:17 PM »
Brilliant stuff Vic, I never get tired of hearing stories about the great man.

Many thanks for posting that.
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Re: Bill Shankly..................... Genius ?
« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2008, 03:41:13 PM »
Shanks - Considered wisdom at all times
Keeping the faith

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Re: Bill Shankly..................... Genius ?
« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2008, 03:59:39 PM »
Quality stuff mate.

Offline shanklyboy

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Re: Bill Shankly..................... Genius ?
« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2008, 07:14:57 PM »
Just a few of mine for you Vic.
The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate, contrived and dishonest — but the myth — persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.

John F. Kennedy.
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Re: Bill Shankly..................... Genius ?
« Reply #27 on: December 19, 2008, 08:03:39 PM »
Nice little appetizer that, Vic.

I wonder if Shanks's mistrust for certified FA coaches was something to do with the orthodoxy that was coming out of Lancaster Gate at the time. I forget the name of the bloke who was the supremo of the FA coaches for many years. He was an ex-RAF fella. But I do remember his methods because I was coached at university by someone who was a disciple of his. This bloke had worked out that most goals were scored following moves of less than three passes or something. In other words he was an enthusiast for the long-ball game.

So, I mean, why would Shanks be interested in that rot?

EDIT: Just read through the rest of the thread and I realise I'm way late. Way late! Charles Hughes was the neanderthal in charge. Well done boys.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2008, 08:06:04 PM by yorkykopite »
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Re: Bill Shankly..................... Genius ?
« Reply #28 on: December 19, 2008, 08:53:46 PM »
Thanks guys.

i think such stuff are great for people like me, who was born and lived too far away to encounter as much as the lucky you.

pls keep them coming.

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Re: Bill Shankly..................... Genius ?
« Reply #29 on: December 20, 2008, 12:12:18 AM »
Just a few of mine for you Vic.


What a fantastic picture. Thanks for posting.
It's true to say that if Shankly had told us to invade Poland we'd be queuing up 10 deep all the way from Anfield to the Pier Head.

Offline Indian Red

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Re: Bill Shankly..................... Genius ?
« Reply #30 on: December 20, 2008, 03:01:22 AM »
Is your book done? DO you plan to publish it?
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Offline Kiwi83

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Re: Bill Shankly..................... Genius ?
« Reply #31 on: December 20, 2008, 04:56:22 AM »
Cheers for sharing, wouldve loved to be around during his reign
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Offline vicgill

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Re: Bill Shankly..................... Genius ?
« Reply #32 on: December 20, 2008, 08:57:02 AM »
Just a few of mine for you Vic.


Thanks mate, two great photos
"Football is a simple game based on the giving and taking of passes, of controlling the ball and making yourself available to receive a pass, it is really that simple"

"Friend, mourn not, though he premature departs, his wisdom marches on within our hearts"
  
RIP Ray Osbourne, comrade, epic swindler, and Internet Terrorist Extraordinaire.

Offline vicgill

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Re: Bill Shankly..................... Genius ?
« Reply #33 on: December 20, 2008, 03:49:35 PM »
Is your book done? DO you plan to publish it?

 I set out with the idea of writing my life story for my children and grandchildren, so that they would know something about me. No it's not finished and i find the discipline of writing quite difficult.

The link below is for the first 2 chapters that my nephew posted on RAWK, I sent them to him for his opinion. If you read it please remember that this was just a draft and is not the finished article. I keep remembering things and have to go back and put them in, sometimes I think i might die before I get it finished and there are times when I hope i do.

I did not start it with the intention of trying to publish it but I have had some very nice comments from some of RAWK'S finest writers and i suppose if the opportunity arose I would consider it

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=115020.0

This link is for a book my daughter wrote about her grandfather.

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=139429.0

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Offline Franck Le Poof

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Re: Bill Shankly..................... Genius ?
« Reply #34 on: December 20, 2008, 04:21:41 PM »
That is superb, vic. Thanks for sharing that
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Re: Bill Shankly..................... Genius ?
« Reply #35 on: December 20, 2008, 06:15:02 PM »
Keep 'em coming Vic, excellent read.
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Re: Bill Shankly..................... Genius ?
« Reply #36 on: December 20, 2008, 09:26:02 PM »
A thread as good as this shouldn't be slipping down the board.

Thanks Vic
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Re: Bill Shankly..................... Genius ?
« Reply #37 on: December 20, 2008, 10:06:16 PM »
Love reading anything about Shanks. Thanks for that Vic
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Re: Bill Shankly..................... Genius ?
« Reply #38 on: December 21, 2008, 11:45:13 PM »
Vic I'm going to be honest. I'm no expert on English and composition so I can't comment on the technical aspects of your story. All i can say is that I've really enjoyed reading your story and would love to read more when you get chance to put pen to paper for the next installment.

Unfortunately your rare insight into some of the most glorious years in our club's history are sadly lost on all but a few of the people on this forum these days.

Good luck with the rest of your story, I for one will be glad to see the rest.
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Re: Bill Shankly..................... Genius ?
« Reply #39 on: December 24, 2008, 08:51:26 PM »
I wish our leaders had his nous
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