Topic: The HKS designed Lucas Oil Stadium

[kopdude81]

Just though I'd get a thread going about the newly opened Lucas Oil Stadium in Indianapolis in the US. Having looked at the plans and layout of both this new stadium and our proposed stadium its easy to see that there are one or two similarities there.
The stadiums base capacity is 60k (the same as ours) and is expanadable up to 70k (also like ours). More importantly the internal layout and design of the stadium looks very similar to our proposed new Anfield. The main features of the stadium are the two masive steel arches which run the length of the pitch supporting the gigantic roof while also dictating the form and layout of the seating areas.
Its easy to see from some of the photographs attached how a single tier KOP would fit in to a stadium that has multiple tiers in the other three stands of  the stadium. I for one think this stadium looks incredible with its steep stands and variation. If this is anything to go by the new Anfield will be a masterpiece, a fortress and a jewel in the crown of Premier League Stadia.
Cant post any photos so I'll suggest that ye go on to http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=lucas+oil+stadium and browse the various photos people have uploaded.
What do ye all think?

[smicer07]

Love the Red X design, beautiful.

[kopdude81]

crossed wires, technical difficulties

[Alan_X]

Not a fan - probably ok for American Football  - the emphasis is all on the stands and not the ends - it looks like a great big warehouse with a pitch in the middle. Too much glass (seems to be an HKS thing) on the inside and nothing like a stadium on the outside.

[kopdude81]

Not a fan - probably ok for American Football  - the emphasis is all on the stands and not the ends - it looks like a great big warehouse with a pitch in the middle. Too much glass (seems to be an HKS thing) on the inside and nothing like a stadium on the outside.

Wasnt reffering to the outside of the stadium. Its completely different to what the new Anfield will be like. Also the roof as it is a closing one will not be the same as our stadium. The interior layout of the stadium or the seating bowl is what I was talking about and this layout shows that a large single tier structure such as the KOP can easily be accomodated allowing the other stands to have their corporate hospitality etc. The glass thing seems to be an issue that a lot of people have a problem with - I dont think it's a major problem. Although some Everton pricks might fancy taking pot shots at the glass as they bitterly pass by.

[Alan_X]

I'm not sure I get what you're saying. That's just a pretty standard layout.



As for all the glass - it is a major problem. To go from this:



...an enclosed cauldron of passion with a massive roof and all the focus on the pitch to a stand with a huge cavernous void above it and lovely views out across Stanley Park...

Pictures below are from two sketchup models (not by me) - the first is the Kop as it is, the second a very basic render of the proposed stadium. The new ground's roof is too high, the rake is too steep and there's no crinkly tin for the lads to bang on when they're getting a song going at the back of the Kop.

I could be wrong of course but I think the new Kop (if it's ever built) will be a soulless place full of whoppers getting the "Kop Experience" while taking pictures of the "fantastic" new arches and waving at themselves on the Jumbotron mega video screen...

[Alan_X]

I don't know if you saw the Britannia Stadium on MOTD the other night but that's what the Kop will feel like if they go ahead with all the glass. There are massive gaps in the corners and you can look out across Stoke when you're up in the stands:



What has that got to do with Anfield?



I know I'm in a minority on this but for me any new stadium should at least keep what makes Anfield special - enclosure, connectino with the pitch, acoustics, the feeling you get when you get into the ground and go up the steps and then see the pitch.... and the new stadium doesn't have any of that. It's a cavernous, "transparent" NFL stadium with a tacked-on single tier terrace but hey, it's "futuristic" and "unique" so that's all right.

[mickfinney]

I don't know if you saw the Britannia Stadium on MOTD the other night but that's what the Kop will feel like if they go ahead with all the glass. There are massive gaps in the corners and you can look out across Stoke when you're up in the stands:



What has that got to do with Anfield?



I know I'm in a minority on this but for me any new stadium should at least keep what makes Anfield special - enclosure, connectino with the pitch, acoustics, the feeling you get when you get into the ground and go up the steps and then see the pitch.... and the new stadium doesn't have any of that. It's a cavernous, "transparent" NFL stadium with a tacked-on single tier terrace but hey, it's "futuristic" and "unique" so that's all right.

agreed, one of the best stadiums for atmosphere i've been in is the millenium, why not use that design as a starting point and try to imprope on it i.e. bigger kop end and ways to keep the pitch in better condition

[LOHAG]

Just had a look at the web link.
As a piece of architecture that is impressive.
Take on board the fact that it looks like a warehouse (Or a aircraft hanger!) but i couldn't care less what it looks like from the outside, it's about getting it right on the inside.
I like the design but it is too fussy, too many tiers and flashing lights, score boards etc, etc, etc. I've no doubt it has self flushing loos with scented candles, but all i want is a trough to p in.
Also, such a design would never work for grass pitches, no way grass would grow in there.

[kopdude81]

Alan F, I suppose the main point of the topic was just to show people how the new stadium might look internally given that both are designed by HKS and have pretty similar internal features ie. the two steel supporting arches.
As these arches are anchored at the four corners of the stadium it means there is a physical break in the actual seating bowl of the stadium meaning it is not your standard "bowl" type stadium. It is instead a distinct four stand stadium within one building - this is what will allow the new KOP to be integrated in to the stadium. Most other stadia have the supporting arches externally on the roof and/or running along the side of the stand such as Anfield at the moment or the Emirates for example.

Your points about the openess of the new stadium as opposed to the confined and dark feel of Anfield at the moment are correct. However I would've thought a steeply raked KOP would be very imposing and produce a really good atmosphere although I'm not sure what effect the high roof will have. I suppose we'll just have to wait and see just how high the roof of the KOP will be. Obviously glass rather than the corugated iron we have at the moment will allow in much more light to the stands but I'm not sure if there'll be a reduction in noise given that the glass will actually stop the noise from leaving the stands at the side and instead reflect it back. I take your point about lads using the corugated iron to make noise and get chants going but we cant take every design feature of the current KOP to the new one.
As regards the comparison with the Britania Stadium I'm not so sure that this applies. The Britania Stadium is at a much smaller scale, is physically open and not enclosed like the new stadium will be. Also the pitch at the new stadium will be several meters below ground level meaning that views of the pitch from outside the stadium will not be possible from ground level.

[kopdude81]

As regards flashy mod cons such as jumbovision screens etc etc I believe we will see them in the new stadium even though I'm not a fan. They're just a necessity for maximising revenue from advertising unfortunately. Sure haven't we installed electronic advertising in Anfield for the new season already?
Some renders of the new stadium show a massive screen at the Priory Rd end and indeed a recent render of the new KOP full with fans shows a screen at one of the corners - its actually on the official web site I think.

[shanklyboy]

Sorry mate but it's horrible.
It does look like a refurbished warehouse or aircraft hanger.
At first I actually thought the pictures were of their old stadium.

Does nothing for me at all.

[redknight]

does nothin for me either. looks like a church from the outside.

[coffeehead]

I know I'm in a minority on this but for me any new stadium should at least keep what makes Anfield special - enclosure, connectino with the pitch, acoustics, the feeling you get when you get into the ground and go up the steps and then see the pitch.... and the new stadium doesn't have any of that. It's a cavernous, "transparent" NFL stadium with a tacked-on single tier terrace but hey, it's "futuristic" and "unique" so that's all right.

A minority maybe but you convinced me a fair while back; I'd originally been a huge fan of Hicks's design until you pointed out it's many flaws

[Texas Reds Fan]

A minority maybe but you convinced me a fair while back; I'd originally been a huge fan of Hicks's design until you pointed out it's many flaws

Same here. Alan's living up to his title again, he's got it completely spot on.

[PhilLFC]

The new stadium look impressive, but i do wonder about the "Acoustics" of the new one, the Kop will NOT be the same when we move, but perhaps in time it will have a bigger impact because of the design. Because that was the central theme in all of this when H&G wanted the new stadium built!! Apart from the stadium above, is there a stadium anywhere else in America that looks like our "Proposed" one??? That HKS Designed

[kingjari]

Shite looks like a factory.

I like the HKS design for our white elephant, but Alan's point about the gaps and glass is an important one.

[Alan_X]

The new stadium look impressive, but i do wonder about the "Acoustics" of the new one, the Kop will NOT be the same when we move, but perhaps in time it will have a bigger impact because of the design. Because that was the central theme in all of this when H&G wanted the new stadium built!! Apart from the stadium above, is there a stadium anywhere else in America that looks like our "Proposed" one??? That HKS Designed

There isn't.

[Alan_X]

However I would've thought a steeply raked KOP would be very imposing and produce a really good atmosphere although I'm not sure what effect the high roof will have. I suppose we'll just have to wait and see just how high the roof of the KOP will be. Obviously glass rather than the corugated iron we have at the moment will allow in much more light to the stands but I'm not sure if there'll be a reduction in noise given that the glass will actually stop the noise from leaving the stands at the side and instead reflect it back. I take your point about lads using the corugated iron to make noise and get chants going but we cant take every design feature of the current KOP to the new one.

A steeply raked Kop might be impressive to look at but will it be right for us? I was halfway up the Kop for the Boro game and I'd make a couple of observations:

An essential part of the "feel" is that massive roof cutting off the sky. I also believe that the relatively shallow rake is fundamental to the emotional impact. You feel part of a single crowd because the people in front and behind are pretty much on your level - like it used to be on the old standing Kop. A steeper rake means you have a better view of the pitch but become more detached from the rows in front and behind.

Like I say it's just my observation and I could be wrong but it worries me that fundamental differences are being introduced without proper study or any understanding of what it means to actually stand on the Kop.

The architects have made a load of assumptions from the outside - it's an anthropological view. I've yet to see any indication that they've actually bothered to watch a game from the Kop and get to grips with what makes it special.

[southendkopite]

I actually think the total opposite. A steeply raked kop would make the stadium much more intimidating like the Bombomera where the crowd are virtually on top of the pitch. Whereas a shallower kop would make the stand seem smaller and less intimidating. I remember reading an interview by Rafa where he mentions the Bombomera is the most intimidating stadium he's managed in because of the steeper stands.

[kingjari]

A steeply raked Kop might be impressive to look at but will it be right for us? I was halfway up the Kop for the Boro game and I'd make a couple of observations:

An essential part of the "feel" is that massive roof cutting off the sky. I also believe that the relatively shallow rake is fundamental to the emotional impact. You feel part of a single crowd because the people in front and behind are pretty much on your level - like it used to be on the old standing Kop. A steeper rake means you have a better view of the pitch but become more detached from the rows in front and behind.

Like I say it's just my observation and I could be wrong but it worries me that fundamental differences are being introduced without proper study or any understanding of what it means to actually stand on the Kop.

The architects have made a load of assumptions from the outside - it's an anthropological view. I've yet to see any indication that they've actually bothered to watch a game from the Kop and get to grips with what makes it special.

They probably assumed that by 2020 when the stadium finally opens everyone on the Kop will be sitting down, munching prawn sandwiches, observing the match through a pair of complimentary mini binoculars with a built in camera.

But again point taken on the Kop design. It looks impressive , but in practice packed with 19,000........who knows?

[Alan_X]

Have a look at this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UebCmiZ-o4

Babel's goal in the Arsenal CL game from the Kop. Fucking great big roof blocking out half of the ground, and a lovely, lovely bank of thousands of Kopites who go fucking mental when Babel scores - not a steeply raked vertiginous bank of fans like the Bombonera...


I rest my case. Fuck off with your huge swoopy roof and steeply raked stand... I want a Kop thank you very fucking much!

[mikeb58]

^^

That is one incredible clip.....wish the telly people would put a camera at the back of the kop,could you imagine those scenes blasting out yer plasma !

[LFCLife4Life]

what a wank looking stadium.

[kopdude81]

what a wank looking stadium.

Thanks for the input!

[kopdude81]

Have a look at this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UebCmiZ-o4

Babel's goal in the Arsenal CL game from the Kop. Fucking great big roof blocking out half of the ground, and a lovely, lovely bank of thousands of Kopites who go fucking mental when Babel scores - not a steeply raked vertiginous bank of fans like the Bombonera...


I rest my case. Fuck off with your huge swoopy roof and steeply raked stand... I want a Kop thank you very fucking much!

Have to say the Bombonera looks to have a smashing atmosphere with its steep stands providing a wall of intimidating sound around the pitch. While I would've thought that a steep KOP would be impressive I cant pretend to be an expert saying that it would be effective - it just seems to work elsewhere.
As for the current KOP and nights like against Arsenal last year it could be near impossible to reproduce that kind of exceptional atmosphere in the new ground.

[Alan_X]

I'm not saying the Bombonera isn't a great atmosphere (though I've never been) - it's just not the Kop.

[Yorkykopite]

People who'd never been on it used to describe the old Spion Kop as "steep". It wasn't. It only had a gentle rake. More like the bottom section of terracing at old Wembley, than the top section. I imagine that's why people were packed together more closely on the Kop than - say - on the Holte End at Villa which had high steps and a steep rake - and which could therefore never produce that tumbling effect which people associated with the Kop.

I don't know that this matters however when it's a question of seats rather than a standing area.  The Bombonera, with its steep rake, has already been mentioned as a terrific stadium for atmosphere. I'd add Dortmund's ground too where the ends behind the goal are much steeper than both the Spion Kop used to be, and the new Kop is.

I agree 100 per cent with Alan about the roof and sides though. The old Kop - and the new to an extent - have excellent roofs which help the noise levels. Christ, the roof of the old one was slung so low that at the back of the Kop it was like looking through a letterbox. But it didn't half do wonders for the acoustics.

As for the sides, one should never ever be able to see a street, a house, a hill etc from the Kop. They should be blocked in with more seats, more supporters. That was definitely the worst thing about the latest design for Stanley Park. There were many reasons why terraces like the Holte End, Stretford End and Gelderd End (at Leeds) could never match the ferocity of the Kop. But undoubtedly one of them was because their corners were open to the sky. 

[redprodigal]

People who'd never been on it used to describe the old Spion Kop as "steep". It wasn't. It only had a gentle rake. More like the bottom section of terracing at old Wembley, than the top section. I imagine that's why people were packed together more closely on the Kop than - say - on the Holte End at Villa which had high steps and a steep rake - and which could therefore never produce that tumbling effect which people associated with the Kop.

I don't know that this matters however when it's a question of seats rather than a standing area.  The Bombonera, with its steep rake, has already been mentioned as a terrific stadium for atmosphere. I'd add Dortmund's ground too where the ends behind the goal are much steeper than both the Spion Kop used to be, and the new Kop is.

I agree 100 per cent with Alan about the roof and sides though. The old Kop - and the new to an extent - have excellent roofs which help the noise levels. Christ, the roof of the old one was slung so low that at the back of the Kop it was like looking through a letterbox. But it didn't half do wonders for the acoustics.

As for the sides, one should never ever be able to see a street, a house, a hill etc from the Kop. They should be blocked in with more seats, more supporters. That was definitely the worst thing about the latest design for Stanley Park. There were many reasons why terraces like the Holte End, Stretford End and Gelderd End (at Leeds) could never match the ferocity of the Kop. But undoubtedly one of them was because their corners were open to the sky. 

I think a steep gradient could be very good for atmoshphere, remember that we have to have a bigger Kop in a bigger ground, so if you don't have a steeper gradient can you imagine how far back the last row would be. It's got to be steeper so you are overlooking the pitch instead of being too far back.
I totally agree 100% about the corners though. We don't want to be looking out and we don't want anyone outside looking in. It's our ground, not a public park ffs. Fill the corners in with seats (if it ever gets built, that is)

[Alan_X]

I think a steep gradient could be very good for atmoshphere, remember that we have to have a bigger Kop in a bigger ground, so if you don't have a steeper gradient can you imagine how far back the last row would be. It's got to be steeper so you are overlooking the pitch instead of being too far back.
I totally agree 100% about the corners though. We don't want to be looking out and we don't want anyone outside looking in. It's our ground, not a public park ffs. Fill the corners in with seats (if it ever gets built, that is)

The rake doesn't affect the row spacing to any significant degree if at all. The attached diagram gives a recommended spacing of 780-800mm, which doesn't change regardless of the rake. In fact the steeper rake means the back rows will be further from the pitch - not only would they be the same distance away horizontally but they would be much further away vertically.

[JohnnyDrama]

Looks like a big barn that.

[redprodigal]

The rake doesn't affect the row spacing to any significant degree if at all. The attached diagram gives a recommended spacing of 780-800mm, which doesn't change regardless of the rake. In fact the steeper rake means the back rows will be further from the pitch - not only would they be the same distance away horizontally but they would be much further away vertically.

Mmmm, I think you could be right, of course the row spacing will probably stay the same horizontally, so no matter what the rake is, the last row will be the same distance horizontally from the pitch, I'll give you that one Al.
I would still prefer a steeper rake though, don't like the shallow gradients like the Emirates etc.  it seems a better atmosphere when the crowd is more on top of the pitch if you know what I mean, but like I said earlier, the Yanks are not gonna build it. I just hope whoever does gets it right. I like the tumours design if only they would fill in those corners.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

I know I'm in a minority on this but for me any new stadium should at least keep what makes Anfield special - enclosure, connectino with the pitch, acoustics, the feeling you get when you get into the ground and go up the steps and then see the pitch.... and the new stadium doesn't have any of that. It's a cavernous, "transparent" NFL stadium with a tacked-on single tier terrace but hey, it's "futuristic" and "unique" so that's all right.

funny you mention lack of acoustics - apparently the new Lucas Oil stadium which staged its first proper game last season had terrible acoustics - the old dome was one of the loudest stadiums in the NFL but this one is meant to be crap