Topic: Lucas called up for Brazil

[nocturnalvin]

i'm in the 'I don't see anything special about him at all' camp. He's a good tidy player and that's about it. I think his inclusion in the Brazil squad shows the relative lack of outstanding Brazilian players around there days.

here we are, a brazilian player of the year in our team being called up for Brazil, and some people could still find a reason to gripe. Its Brazil ffs. 5 times world champion. Not Poland. Not Austria.

get a fucking grip.

[billypilgrimnz]

It's scary how quickly fans are willing to throw themselves into the "He's not worthy of Liverpool" camp for young players, and then spend the rest of the time watching those players and making mental notes of everything that they don't do well in a game, while brushing off the good stuff as "A fluke".

I see Skrtel has been mentioned in this light in the post-match thread today. It's worrying.

[barnseysleftpeg]

I posted the below on another forum but feel it's really relevant here so I'm posting again.


I've been on some other boards recently and I just can't believe how much Lucas has split opinions within our fans.

Now I'm an avid supporter of his and think he has very clear qualities and generally has a lot to offer. He's by no means the finished article and can be frustrating at times but hopefully he'll keep improving however some people are totally unconvinced to the point where they are suggesting that he's been a waste of money already.

Admittedly there are some fans who tend to go overboard and overrate players and this inevitably leads to people going the other way - this has happened a lot with Lucas. But I think that Lucas is sometimes harshly judged because:

A) Being Brazilian
This means that even if you're a defender you're expected to beat 5-6 players.
Anyone that has seen Lucas will know that this is not his game but this does not make him any less Brazilian in fact this makes him more of a throwback to Brazil teams of the 70s and 80s with players like Falcao and Socrates who passed and moved and were more considered and thoughtful with the ball. These great players could dribble but did it only when they needed to. Lucas, whose uncle Leivinha played for Brazil in the 80s, has obviously been brought up with this philosophy and is the reason why he's been hailed in Brazil because they've been lacking this type of player for a while.

B) Coming on for Gerrard in the derby
Whether we agree with Rafas decision or not Lucas did well when he came on but I, like alot of people, thought that we still would have won with Gerrard on the pitch anyway. It seems that since this game alot of fans have started overrating him (myself included at times) and others have started to be overly critical of his deficiencies i.e lack of strength etc. With this substitution Lucas went from being a young player who was supposed to be working his way into the team and slowly learning his trade to a player, who in some fans eyes, was a direct replacement for our captain, which is ludicrous. Whilst being a great vote of confidence from the manager this has heaped undue pressure on Lucas' shoulders.

C)Not being English
On some of the other boards alot of fans have been stating that Spearing is just as good if not better but because Lucas is a foreigner he's getting a run of games in the first team when it could be going to a promising local lad like Spearing. The fact is in alot of cases, in many teams in the prem, the development of local lads is stifled due to the influx of foreigners - I mean this debate has been raging for ages especially with the national team not qualifying for the Euros. However in Lucas' case he warrants the chances he's been given regardless of where he's from. Anyone who had seen Lucas in the reserves early last season, playing alongside Spearing in most cases, would clearly see that he is nearly superior in all depts i.e technique, passing, reading of the game etc. What Spearing has over Lucas is that he will chase down anything and is always totally committed. Not that Lucas isn't but flying into tackles is just not his game but to some fans this is sometimes enough to give a local lad a go.

In my opinion Lucas is an excellent prospect a player we should be happy to have and whose development we should be encouraging. Is he the finished article certainly not but he's got enough talent for him to have our support.

So all I'm asking is for folks to be fair in his appraisal. If he's performed well lets not build it up to be world class if he's been poor lets not make it out it was the worst ever performance by a player in a Liverpool shirt.

Sorry for the long one just had to get it off my chest.

[xavidub]

I was very disappointed in Lucas again last night. I am trying to remain positive about him, and I know he hasn't had many opportunities, but at the moment I cannot really see what he does very well. He is not a great visionary passer, doesn't shoot with great accuracy, doesn't tackle diligently or even necessarily effectively and doesn't cover defence thoroughly. At the moment he is a very average utility player, much like Zenden was and I am struggling to see him as an integral part of the squad.. 

[.adam]

I was very disappointed in Lucas again last night. I am trying to remain positive about him, and I know he hasn't had many opportunities, but at the moment I cannot really see what he does very well. He is not a great visionary passer, doesn't shoot with great accuracy, doesn't tackle diligently or even necessarily effectively and doesn't cover defence thoroughly. At the moment he is a very average utility player, much like Zenden was and I am struggling to see him as an integral part of the squad.. 

Would have to agree, mate. He needs to really start bossing games. Hope he proves me wrong but at the moment I don't see what he offers.

[new-red]

lucas might not make it here but that doesnt mean he isnt a good player, just that he doesnt fit into our system. If you put him in Arsenal he would fit in fluidly in that midfield. He is a pure pass-and-move footballer and we dont have the movement to make him effective and because there is a lack of movement it makes him look ineffective and useless when that is very much not the case.

[Liverbabel]

lucas might not make it here but that doesnt mean he isnt a good player, just that he doesnt fit into our system. If you put him in Arsenal he would fit in fluidly in that midfield. He is a pure pass-and-move footballer and we dont have the movement to make him effective and because there is a lack of movement it makes him look ineffective and useless when that is very much not the case.

Yeah i agree with that!

He's a talented player and i think he can make it with us. He's the future of this club along with babel and el zhar!

[hansen6]

He's underwhelmed me so far, he doesn't seem to be able to up his game - looks relaxed all the time.

[pathetic]

well to be honest i thought he played really well when he came on last night. dont really see why everyone is complaining. ok he was poor in the past but in his first few games he showed a lot of potential. dont really know why he seemed to stall though

i think hes a case of we have to wait and see! but i agree with who said that he is pass and move! he is very good at one touch football and one-twos!

[dannymc]

Looks too slow and clumsy, got alot of work if he wants to get into our team to be honest.

[dmn]

I was very disappointed in Lucas again last night. I am trying to remain positive about him, and I know he hasn't had many opportunities, but at the moment I cannot really see what he does very well. He is not a great visionary passer, doesn't shoot with great accuracy, doesn't tackle diligently or even necessarily effectively and doesn't cover defence thoroughly. At the moment he is a very average utility player, much like Zenden was and I am struggling to see him as an integral part of the squad.. 

What did he do wrong last night?
"not a great visionary passer" - compared to Alonso, Lucas has more vision when higher up the pitch but less when deeper. Yesterday, Benayoun and Riera had gone missing by the time Lucas came on and we were playing very deep.
"doesn't shoot with great accuracy" - not great, but certainly he's at least on an average accuracy on our team. Compare him for example to the huge ammount of shots Alonso takes which usually are off target.
"doesn't tackle diligently or even necessarily effectively" - I could agree with that in general, but ffs, yesterday he stole the ball from AM players on a number of occassions - certainlly with a higher frequency than Mascherano.
"doesn't cover defence thoroughly" - he does lots of running to cover defence. But I'd partly agree with you, because in some situation he's, just like Alonso, a bit too slow compared to Masch and Gerrard.

Would have to agree, mate. He needs to really start bossing games. Hope he proves me wrong but at the moment I don't see what he offers.

He was bossing all the games in pre-season before he went to the olympics. Without contest our best player in pre-season. Unfortunately most people (perhaps rightly so) forgot all about our early pre-season (except that Pacheco played).

The stick Lucas gets is partly correct - but is so because he's been given a short stick to begin with:
Lucas is mostly competing with Alonso for a place in the team. At this point in his career (awaiting further development and adaption to PL), Lucas will only perform better than Alonso in matches when we are higher up the pitch. But what games has he got?
90 min vs Marseille away when we, mostly due to Mascherano having a horrible game, were unable to put any real preassure on LOM.
90 min vs Villa away in a strange position (some 4-3-3).
15 min vs PSV and Atletico, and 5 min vs Everton, when we were playing deep just defending.

Hardly any chance to play to his stengths (compared to Alonso's).

[.adam]

Can't agree when people say we don't play pAss and move. We're doing it now more than we have for years (hence why Alonso is playing so much better).

[The Jackal]

Can't agree when people say we don't play pAss and move. We're doing it now more than we have for years (hence why Alonso is playing so much better).

ABsolutely. The first half against Atletico last night was at times classic pass and move. Great to see.

[BazC]

Still want to see him in a more advanced role- similar to where Gerrard plays. In the present crop of players he's the only one who looks like he has the potential to take over even half of Gerrard's influence in attack. Play him further forward to see if he can score goals, make goals and generally have that drive that Gerrard brings us. I think he has the potential. Just needs the playing time in that position- and it's hard to see when he would get that playing time in that position.

[Adam Davies]

He did have a great derby last year though, i think thats why he's in Brazils team.
He's not in the same class as Alonso. I hope he comes good and id never have a go at him. Can we afford to play him in important games in order for him to improve (which he needs to ).

[Anything Will Do]

He's not good enough. I think most people watching the game last night groaned when they saw that he was coming on and I think that says it all.

[Manila Kop]

He needs to really start bossing games.

I think this is the main reason Lucas gets stick...as a midfielder, he's just not the type who will impose himself on games either through drive and passion like Gerrard or vision and passing like Xabi.  He seems to be limited because we don't see lung-busting runs or 40-yard passes.  But I think his strengths are underutilized playing deep, both for us and Brazil.  His reputation for Gremio was established as an attacking midfielder and we see that in flashes - his header against Crewe, his goal against Havant, his one-two with Pacheco in the national reserves final.  Putting aside whether he's not doing well because we don't play pass-and-move (which is arguable) the role of deep-lying playmaker or midfielder seems to be one that doesn't suit his potential contributions for us.

[Daranoza]

Am very apprehensive about Lucas. I don't trust him, yet.

[Alf Garnett!]

I don't rate him at all.

My opinion,fuck off.

I'd be very happy for him to prove his worth,after 37 games-he's failed to impress me.

[Bob Loblaw]

THought he looked good when he came on last night.

Would agree with who said he's a pass and move footballer. Our team is so much about being competitive and closing down teams and that just doesn't suit his game. He's not about that. He's about getting the ball, having options around him, giving it and then immediately going looking for it back.

Don't think he'll be here in the long term to be honest. Too good to be sat on the bench for weeks on end. How is he meant to develop as a player?

[mazlo123]

THought he looked good when he came on last night.

 Too good to be sat on the bench for weeks on end. How is he meant to develop as a player?

Agree

[farawayred]

Agree

Me 2

[BazC]

THought he looked good when he came on last night.

Would agree with who said he's a pass and move footballer. Our team is so much about being competitive and closing down teams and that just doesn't suit his game. He's not about that. He's about getting the ball, having options around him, giving it and then immediately going looking for it back.

Don't think he'll be here in the long term to be honest. Too good to be sat on the bench for weeks on end. How is he meant to develop as a player?

Who would you take out the team for him? Gerrard? Masch? Alonso? He's not on the same level of either one of those in their respective positions. Tough one on how he'll develop.

[Mimi]

Who would you take out the team for him? Gerrard? Masch? Alonso? He's not on the same level of either one of those in their respective positions. Tough one on how he'll develop.

To be fair, he does not play any of their respective positions. He is a weird hybrid of Gerrard and Alonso. This year he could still be a very good impact sub for us if the form of Mascherano and Alonso don't drop. Kinda like Benayoun. He is suited to games where we need to break down the opposition and that are played at a high tempo. Also we will probably start seeing more rotation soon to keep the squad injury-free.

[Bob Loblaw]

Who would you take out the team for him? Gerrard? Masch? Alonso? He's not on the same level of either one of those in their respective positions. Tough one on how he'll develop.

Well personally i'd play Gerrard on the right when i wanted to give Lucas some playing time. But that won't happen. So i'd send him away on Loan.

[BazC]

To be fair, he does not play any of their respective positions. He is a weird hybrid of Gerrard and Alonso. This year he could still be a very good impact sub for us if the form of Mascherano and Alonso don't drop. Kinda like Benayoun. He is suited to games where we need to break down the opposition and that are played at a high tempo. Also we will probably start seeing more rotation soon to keep the squad injury-free.

But a sub role isn't good enough for a CM to develop. He needs more playing time... and I don't think sending him on loan is going to work either.

[Mimi]

But a sub role isn't good enough for a CM to develop. He needs more playing time... and I don't think sending him on loan is going to work either.

You could really say that about any position and a youngster trying to break in, Baz. I do not agree with the loan option, but I can't see why a sub role will not help him. For the rest of this year, he can still play an important part with us, and I think any decisions on his Liverpool future can wait until the summer.  As with Babel, it's his mentality that's going to make the difference of whether he succeeds here or not. He is a better bench option than Plessis. We cannot play with just three CMs and personally I dislike the idea of Gerrard anywhere in CM. I think it's a bit tougher for him this year because Alonso looks back to form, and his style of play doesn't make him the natural replacement for Mascherano. But if he wants to play at a top club that is going to be the level of competition he will have to expect and rise to. He also has the advantage of having the potential to play the Gerrard second-striker role in a 4231. So I'm sure Rafa likes him because of his possibilities.

[teganyavo]

he's 21 flipping years old! Give the kid a break FFS. He looks better than most 21 year olds.

[BazC]

Thing with a CM though, is that a lot of development comes through gaining prolonged experience. At least in my opinion. An impact sub may work for strikers and attacking players, but as a CM? Nope. If I pull it to the extreme; think about trying to develop a CB and using him as an impact sub. I think it's a bit like that, but not as extreme.

Also, Alonso isn't meant to replace Mascherano- they're completely different styles of player. We need both of them. Lucas will need to take Gerrard's place in the squad. I'd love to see him play further forward, get goals and assists and be our focal point in attack along with Torres. Still haven't seen it much though.

[RyanNS]

Good news for Lucas. Getting as many matches in for the Brazilian national side will only give him more experience that in the end will benefit LFC. He's not getting a whole lot of games in against quality competition here, hopefully these national side call ups continue.

I'm still not sure what role he will take on here. To be honest I haven't seen him play enough to thoroughly analyze his performances. He is going to become more of a holding midfielder opposed to the more attacking role Gerrard has right?

[Mimi]

Thing with a CM though, is that a lot of development comes through gaining prolonged experience. At least in my opinion. An impact sub may work for strikers and attacking players, but as a CM? Nope. If I pull it to the extreme; think about trying to develop a CB and using him as an impact sub. I think it's a bit like that, but not as extreme.

--- You use impact subs for attacking players. Who says a CM cannot be an attacking player?  And even though Lucas says he is a defensive midfielder, I've always thought his best moments have been in transitioning our attack between the midfield and the forwards. Of all our midfielders outside of Gerrard, he has the best attacking instincts around the box. And for a slight guy, he is a good header and has a good sense of timing.

Also, Alonso isn't meant to replace Mascherano- they're completely different styles of player.

- I never said anything about Alonso replacing Mascherano. I said that Lucas cannot fill in for Mascherano in the same way he can for Alonso and Gerrard. Though it is interesting that he considers himself a defensive midfielder.

  Still haven't seen it much though.

- I love Lucas but I do know that he hasn't been great this year but not as terrible as others have made out. Maybe it's a confidence thing; all players go through a bad run at times. But he has the talent to make it if he preseveres.

[royhendo]

he came on last night and did a tidy job. two poorly delivered free kicks, but other than that, he was neat and tidy, played some nice passes, won the ball when it was contestable, and made himself available to his team mates when they had the ball. the atletico goal came from a punt forward that missed out their midfield.

the thing that annoys people is the relaxed demeanour i reckon - same thing as dossena. you get comments from people like "he looks like he can't be arsed" based on the fact he's able to relax when he moves.  but he's a player - his head is up, he comes looking for the ball, and he plays it simple. those are traits we traditionally value in our players, no?

if we eventually let him go he'll probably go on to have a great career regardless, but fingers crossed we can keep him and he'll outdo what the likes of fletcher do when they're called on to do a shift for ferguson. people have long thought fletcher is shite, but recently he's developed a habit of making key contributions for them. lucas is at least capable of doing that for us, if not more. he just needs to develop more power and aggression for me.

[AussieG]

lucas is rubbish, if you didnt know the last place you would think he is from would be Brazil. No pace, no tricks, passing is average at best and an aweful lunging tackler....

[Slave]

lucas is rubbish, if you didnt know the last place you would think he is from would be Brazil. No pace, no tricks, passing is average at best and an aweful lunging tackler....

(Aussie G in talking shit shocker)

Yeah maybe Rafa should have phoned Wenger before he bought him, ay?

[freedom]

lucas is rubbish

No, he isn't   

[BazC]

--- You use impact subs for attacking players. Who says a CM cannot be an attacking player?  And even though Lucas says he is a defensive midfielder, I've always thought his best moments have been in transitioning our attack between the midfield and the forwards. Of all our midfielders outside of Gerrard, he has the best attacking instincts around the box. And for a slight guy, he is a good header and has a good sense of timing.

Well yeah- I have said I'd like to see him play more in an AM type role instead of CM. But as a CM, where he'd have defensive duties as well? He'd need more game time to improve that aspect of his game as the defensive side is more organisation and getting comfortable with structures, rather than when attacking- which gives that little bit of freedom for a footballer to express themselves.

- I never said anything about Alonso replacing Mascherano. I said that Lucas cannot fill in for Mascherano in the same way he can for Alonso and Gerrard. Though it is interesting that he considers himself a defensive midfielder.

Misread it  And yes it is interesting he considers himself a defensive midfielder... I wouldn't have said that at all!

- I love Lucas but I do know that he hasn't been great this year but not as terrible as others have made out. Maybe it's a confidence thing; all players go through a bad run at times. But he has the talent to make it if he preseveres.

Yup- I've said as much earlier in the season when he was getting some stick as well. I just don't think he's on a 'bad run'... he hardly plays! If he was a regular in our side and playing poorly then yeah- bad run, but at the moment he's bit part.

[dmn]

I'd love to see him play further forward, get goals and assists and be our focal point in attack along with Torres. Still haven't seen it much though.

He had the best assist/minutes played of all Liverpool players in the PL last season I think (Crouch might actually have been higher - I'm not sure how many minutes he played)...

He did have a great derby last year though, i think thats why he's in Brazils team.

Haha, no, there's much more to it. Remember he was captain in the Brazil U20... Then he played good in some very high profile matches for us, like Inter Milan... Then he went to the Olympics with Ronaldinho, Diego et al, and was given a major role and lots of confidence by Dunga... And Dunga is also the full NT manager, so he has called on Lucas for the 4 international matches after the olympics.

Though it is interesting that he considers himself a defensive midfielder.

That's more of a mix-up in definition. What would you think of if you heard the description Brazilian attacking midfielder? So he does not consider himself an attacking midfielder, but rather defensive. But not the "most defensive" midfielder in the 11. As in,  he want a quite free role with a more defensive midfielder next to him as the 2 in either a 4-4-2 or a 4-2-3-1.

Who would you take out the team for him? Gerrard? Masch? Alonso? He's not on the same level of either one of those in their respective positions. Tough one on how he'll develop.

He needs to play instead of Alonso, with Masherano next to him, and with Gerrard either further ahead in a 4-2-3-1 or Gerrard on the bench/out.
He is a better player than Alonso if we have lots of position and territorial advantage, but hasn't got an opportunity to show that this season.
With the addition of Keane, we've been playing 4-4-2 instead of 4-2-3-1 against such opposition, using Alonso, Gerrard, Keane instead of Mascherano, Lucas, Gerrard.
If Gerrard is out injured, Lucas should start in such matches. Unfortunately for Lucas, the matches Gerrard missed wasn't such matches. United and Villa away aren't matches where we can expect to put the opponents under lots of pressure.

If he'd play in the centre with Gerrard, Lucas would end up in a too deep position. Lucas and Alonso in the middle could work very well in some matches, but I'd be quite worried about a lack of pace that Masch or Gerrard provides.

[BazC]

He is a better player than Alonso if we have lots of position and territorial advantage, but hasn't got an opportunity to show that this season.
With the addition of Keane, we've been playing 4-4-2 instead of 4-2-3-1 against such opposition, using Alonso, Gerrard, Keane instead of Mascherano, Lucas, Gerrard.
If Gerrard is out injured, Lucas should start in such matches. Unfortunately for Lucas, the matches Gerrard missed wasn't such matches. United and Villa away aren't matches where we can expect to put the opponents under lots of pressure.

If he'd play in the centre with Gerrard, Lucas would end up in a too deep position. Lucas and Alonso in the middle could work very well in some matches, but I'd be quite worried about a lack of pace that Masch or Gerrard provides.

How exactly is he better than Alonso when we have 'position and territorial advantage'? Alonso is on another level (or 2) above Lucas at the moment and will be for a while yet- especially when we're controlling posession and attacking. Xabi's importance in our team is severely underplayed and has been for some time. Only when he's out of the team do we realise that Gerrard, Masch or Lucas aren't actually capable of replacing what he adds to our team.

Lucas needs to play to develop into the top class player he can be. But like I said- his presence over the other 3 absolutely cannot be justified at the moment. Masch is a great destroyer, Xabi has been one of our best players this season, and Gerrard- whilst not always playing well (his passing has left a LOT to be desired more often than not)- can always pull one out the bag- and of course, he's our captain. It's like the Agger- Skrtel situation, but easier- because whilst Agger had showed his class last season, Lucas hadn't- he's only shown flashes of his potential. The 3 regulars at the moment are (or should be) untouchable- they're right in the spine of our team.

[royhendo]

it's a shame that we reach a point where it's 'he's better than alonso'... 'no he's not'... etc though no?

he's a good player with potential to become very good. the brazilian media know what he's capable of and you wonder whether it's a cultural thing somehow. anyway, there's no chance he'll get an extended run unless there are (god forbid) injuries so it could be we have to move him on next summer, but fingers crossed he digs in and makes his case better. tough to do though, the way masch and alonso are playing.

[AussieG]

Obviously there are those that don't agree with me that lucas is rubbish and that's fair enough.

But for those saying he is better than alonso. I have a few words for you

"Oh my fucking god, stop watching football and go play some netball cause you have no IDEA"