Topic: The Level 3 Thread

[Juan Loco]

Leaders isn't it. A lack of them. Reina is trying his best and even Carragher seems less vocal, simply because he doesn't seem to know what is going on and is worried about his own form.

Mascherano hasn't picked up the mantle either and Lucas reacts to everything with that awkward grin, kinda like the one Chandler makes in Friends when he knows a picture is going to be taken.

Insua and Johnson are relatively quiet and Skrtel is probably humming along to some death metal.

They now go back to the dressing room and there isn't the experience that there was there before. Its all looking very weak.

I don't really know what we can do to turn it around. Do we look to become more defensive until the midfield and backline become more confident and are less exposed? Can the likes of Johnson and Insua be more defensive?

Could we even bring in Didi Hamman, just to bulk up the numbers and bring some experience back into the squad?

I've said similar before and I know not a lot of people agree with it but I think the team lacks experience. It's pretty young and there's no one there who has really been there and done it over a league season. I think our best seasons have coincided with experienced pros being brought in, whether they actually performed well or not. 2000-01 it was Babbel, Hamman, Litmanen, McAllister. 2005 there was Didi still, Sami was at that stage and we brought in Pellegrino and Morientes, neither of whom were good enough on the pitch but had been there and done it and obviously could have helped the players who have been there to understand what it takes. 2006 we added Zenden to that. Again, he wasn't particularly great in a red shirt but he'd played plenty for Barcelona and Holland (and Chelsea) he knew what it took to play on the big stage and was obviously quite highly thought of because a lot of players when interviewed said he was amongst their best friends at the club.

Last season we had it to an extent, though not enough. We had a side that had been together for pretty much 3 years more or less, some longer. Still had Sami around as a presence, people like Alonso... hell, even Robbie Keane whilst being one of the very worst players ever to put on a red shirt, was a battle hardened premiership footballer who knew what it took. Shame he didn't have it.


I still think the main problem is a lack of Germans. Germans would sort this out instantly. Facial hair too. But German's especially in lieu of a decent pool of Scottish talent.

[BazC]

I would have to agree with this. I had been hoping responsibility would raise him, but it has not. The fact he was outstanding for Brazil may be that mentally he relaxed while surrounded by that amount of talent and experience. You see the same here; he's tangibly much happier playing next to Stevie. Enjoyed your post JL - or let us say, plenty of food for thought. Off to put on a Leonard Cohen album...

The thing I find with Lucas is that he always seems like he's on the periphery of a game rather than being involved in it. And in that situation you have to look out for him and see the little things he is doing that you're not noticing. We had it with Alonso when he stopped doing all the eye catching stuff, but carried on with his hub of possession and all that stuff. Last season he starts doing the amazing showbiz again and suddenly we sell him for £30m.

Do we need a player in there who can drive the game forward and become involved in pushing the team to victory? Or can a player like Lucas- who perhaps won't come to have a great direct impact on us scoring goals or stopping them going in- be successful in our team?

I'm hoping it's all moot when Aquilani comes in and starts producing. I can't fathom a situation where he does a Robbie Keane instead of a Torres in terms of impact on our team. But if there's one position Rafa's had sustained success, it's CM. Alonso, Sissoko and Mascherano before Aquilani so far- all top class players.

Interesting point on the leadership thing- in that somehow all of our leaders and organisers are either playing poorly, gone or injured. Brilliant.

So a team of young players who have no experience of winning the league... we turning into Arsenal Juan? 

[Juan Loco]

So a team of young players who have no experience of winning the league... we turning into Arsenal Juan? 

Well, we are coming up on 4 years without a trophy and our best midfielder(s) do want to fuck off to Spain.

[BazC]

Fucks sake.

[abhred]

More than anything, we're missing Alonso's leadership in the center of the pitch. Someone there the players trusted. They don't trust Lucas, or Spearing.

Shocking that we've gone from the best midfield in Europe to an average one at best. Doesn't help that Mascherano is a moaning twat.

I'll say again, there's just a lack of presence in there, a lack of spine, similar to Arsenal. Honestly, Aquilani can't come soon enough. For me, this

Reina
Johnson   Carra   Agger   Aurelio
Masch
Gerrard   Aquilani
Kuyt   Torres   Yossi

is just about the best starting 11 out there.

And it's not about the lack of depth either. There were enough good players out there to win the game. There was just no spine, no leader out there, to stick the team together. That's what we're missing with Alonso, more than his passing, or vision. Our team yesterday was just filled with good to very good support players. Stick an Alonso, or an in form Gerrard, and we'd be so much better. Even an on form Agger would make a huge difference.

Also, the system (or the way we implemented) was terrible. Agger, and Skrtel were playing as full backs, with Yossi, Babel, Johnson, and Fabio just to cramp up the wide areas, leaving only Lucas and Spearing in the center, and they just got bullied.

We're still in it though. We've lost only one point yesterday, from the top of the table. Just fucking hope that Mascherano, and Aquilani are fit, Gerrard is back in form, Torres is fit, and Agger and Aurelio remain fit.

We've seen glimpses, but we've been outplayed by any decent team. It's got to start this week. With the Lyon game, who are a very good side. It will be just like us, defeating the Mancs next week.

We're very fortunate, we're still in it, and it does seem Rafa has got one thing right - the top teams will lose more points.

Oh, and I'll be the first to say this, expect bids from us for Cattermole and Turner next summer.

[abhred]

I still think the main problem is a lack of Germans. Germans would sort this out instantly. Facial hair too. But German's especially in lieu of a decent pool of Scottish talent.

Indeed.

Mesut Ozil please.

[BazC]

Yeah abhred. In fact, now I think about it, I reckon our midfield's been outplayed and outfought this season more times already than they had in the last few seasons put together.

It'd be a rare event seeing Liverpool's midfield being overrun or outfought. This season it's a defining event.

[Juan Loco]

Oh, and I'll be the first to say this, expect bids from us for Cattermole and Turner next summer.

That's what we should have done this summer though. ... Granted Rafa probably wanted to and his hands were tied, but even when they were linked the reaction was hardly favourable.

I know even mentioning you want English/British players in the team is a little too BNP for some but fuck it, I do want to see the best young British talent available in a Liverpool squad. I know we're not going to get a Rooney (or a Rodwell, which begs the question why the fuck aren't they in our academy?) but good (potentially very good) players like Johnson and Cattermole should be being snapped up before there is a fucking ridiculous price tag on their heads. Your James Milner's too. They may not make up the spine of a side, but they'll add a permanent core to your squad if they're good enough, and the ones mentioned are.

Indeed.

Mesut Ozil please.

He's Turkish though 

Would be nice though. I really, really want Klose now that he's mentioned he likes the club. I would be chuffed to fucking bits with Klose. Got to say I am almost always impressed with Frings when I see him as well, but he seems to have fallen off the face of the planet.

I fucking love German's. Character, power and technique. No bullshit. 5 years ago they weren't producing players, they sort it out, 5 years later and they are European Champions at every level from U16s to u21s and have a couple of fucking great looking players coming through.


Sign more germans.

Thank you.

[abhred]

Would be nice though. I really, really want Klose now that he's mentioned he likes the club. I would be chuffed to fucking bits with Klose. Got to say I am almost always impressed with Frings when I see him as well, but he seems to have fallen off the face of the planet.

He'll be back when the World Cup comes up next year. He always does.

They do have ridiculous amount of talent coming through. Nueuer, Adler, Marin, Ozil, Muller, Kroos, Castro. Sign one of them, be much cheaper than David Silva.

Agree with signing English players. Much rather have signed Cattermole for 10M this season, than 20M next season, when Masch decided to fuck off.

We'd have done much better with him in the middle yesterday, rather than Spearing.

[Juan Loco]

He'll be back when the World Cup comes up next year. He always does.

They do have ridiculous amount of talent coming through. Nueuer, Adler, Marin, Ozil, Muller, Kroos, Castro. Sign one of them, be much cheaper than David Silva.

Agree with signing English players. Much rather have signed Cattermole for 10M this season, than 20M next season, when Masch decided to fuck off.

We'd have done much better with him in the middle yesterday, rather than Spearing.

You forgot Boateng. I know he had a bit of a rough game against Russia but if he kicks on from the U21 tournament then he looks like a really good defender. I know they're struggling this year but those two at Stuttgart, Khedira and Tasci are meant to be good players as well. They're all nationalised though. Ozil is turkish, Khedira is Tunisian, christ knows how many Poles are in there. They've been doing it for a while now, wasn't that lad Asamoah who played for Schalke Ghanaian or something?

[Xabi Gerrard]

European Champions at every level from U16s to u21s and have a couple of fucking great looking players coming through.
 

I've always found the Italian and Spanish boys cuter, but you're right, Marvin Compper and David Odonker are fit in a JLS kind of way

[Juan Loco]

I've always found the Italian and Spanish boys cuter, but you're right, Marvin Compper and David Odonker are fit in a JLS kind of way

Not for me. I like my men efficient. The Spaniards spend far too much time outside the box and the Italians expect you to go down after any sort of contact.

[No666]

Agree with signing English players. Much rather have signed Cattermole for 10M this season, than 20M next season, when Masch decided to fuck off.

Well, there's the rub, because we didn't have the £10m this season, and whichever way you cut it, the Xabi money was sucked into a black hole called (in Purslow's book) operating costs and (in my book) the Royal Bank of W*nkers. If TB is right, and he is more often than not, Rafa made the pragmatic decision to keep hold of the fringe players because he wasn't sure he'd even get their minimal fees to reinvest. Nevertheless, I do wonder whether Rafa has what it takes to motivate the players for these grind-them-out games; the whole 'culture of detail' doesn't cut it on a dull Saturday in Sunderland. Though, having said that, I figured Sami was brought in to provide the fire-in-the-belly stuff. So many questions...

[abhred]

Anybody has Rafa's post match interview? Interesting to see what he'd say.

[hassinator]

Not for me. I like my men efficient. The Spaniards spend far too much time outside the box and the Italians expect you to go down after any sort of contact.

italians do it better

[armchair-fan]

Firstly, I can't help but feel partly responsible.  As soon as I get signed up to RAWK we lose 3 on the bounce and suddenly look awful.

Maybe I'm being too basic here, but doesn't it all come down to money?  I have grown accustomed to be outspent by Yernited and Chelsea, however in the last 2 years or so we have managed to get into a situation where we can be outspent by the mid-level teams, the likes of Spurs, Villa, Sunderland, Man City (of course) and now maybe even Birmingham.  Man City are twice as good as they were 18 months ago as they have chucked around hundreds of millions.  Sunderland look much improved since last year, in large part, because they have signed some better players (I'm can't bring myself to think that Steve Bruce has coached them to be any better).  As has been mentioned we got beat by a team including Cattermole, who by all accounts Rafa wanted but couldn't afford, while we had to throw in Spearing due to a few players being unavailable.

I think we are in danger of becoming the 'new Arsenal', not because of any similarities in playing style, but because I think they are in the same boat.  A good coach can get you so far, but if you don't have loadsamoney to spend you can't expect to win, at least not the league.

So I think basically what I am saying is, until things are sorted out regarding he business side of things we're unlikely to make that step up to becoming league champions.

On a different note, I had the unfortunate experience of seeing 'The Last Word' on Sky tonight following Wigan-Man City.  Peter Reid was on with Gray and Keys.  It was truly horrible.  It was all I could do to restrain myself from throwing something at he TV, I eventually had to leave the room.  Needless to say 'zonal marking' was on their agenda

[liverbnz]

Firstly, I can't help but feel partly responsible.  As soon as I get signed up to RAWK we lose 3 on the bounce and suddenly look awful.

Maybe I'm being too basic here, but doesn't it all come down to money?  I have grown accustomed to be outspent by Yernited and Chelsea, however in the last 2 years or so we have managed to get into a situation where we can be outspent by the mid-level teams, the likes of Spurs, Villa, Sunderland, Man City (of course) and now maybe even Birmingham.  Man City are twice as good as they were 18 months ago as they have chucked around hundreds of millions.  Sunderland look much improved since last year, in large part, because they have signed some better players (I'm can't bring myself to think that Steve Bruce has coached them to be any better).  As has been mentioned we got beat by a team including Cattermole, who by all accounts Rafa wanted but couldn't afford, while we had to throw in Spearing due to a few players being unavailable.

I think we are in danger of becoming the 'new Arsenal', not because of any similarities in playing style, but because I think they are in the same boat.  A good coach can get you so far, but if you don't have loadsamoney to spend you can't expect to win, at least not the league.

So I think basically what I am saying is, until things are sorted out regarding he business side of things we're unlikely to make that step up to becoming league champions.

On a different note, I had the unfortunate experience of seeing 'The Last Word' on Sky tonight following Wigan-Man City.  Peter Reid was on with Gray and Keys.  It was truly horrible.  It was all I could do to restrain myself from throwing something at he TV, I eventually had to leave the room.  Needless to say 'zonal marking' was on their agenda

We have the squad to compete. We could do with maybe having another option in midfield and up front but every team in the PL this year seems to lack something somewhere. Money can't be used to excuse the lacklustre performances against Chelsea, Sunderland and La Viola or the poor defending from Skrtel and Carragher, 2 players who we use to rely on, I find myself looking through my fingers at now. Too many players off form/lacking in effort/not bothered or whatever. All the confidence and belief built up throughout last season has been destroyed in a few matches, and no amount of money will be buying that back.

[Hank Scorpio]

Anything in that Michels book about defending against a beachball?

[Hank Scorpio]

Jumping in on the Lucas debate.

You know, over the last few seasons, when we have played tough matches, we have had a player in the middle of the park, who has taken on the responsibility of demanding the ball from the defence and then directing and orchestrating our play.  Demanding the ball.  Whether this was done verbally or through body language, positioning, personality, whatever; he got that ball off those players.  And then he got it again and again.  He was a game changer.  Sunderland away last season, funnily enough, was a perfect example of a game which was changed by such a player.  I forget his name.

I really, really like Lucas.  Really.  But if there is one criticism I will level at him it is that he doesn't assert himself in the same way.  We can make excuses for him, whatever they maybe, but he needs to start making a similar impact on games.  I don't know if he needs to pistol-whip Carragher in the showers to get these fuckers to take some notice but he needs to do something.

He does a lot of good things which go unnoticed, as HBHR and Baz have pointed out, and that would be good enough if we were winning games and so on.  But we are not winning games, in fact we're losing games, so he needs to to do a little more.

I say this, but it's not just him, there are a few others who need to look at their form and start performing for the team.

Martin 'I was hard as nails but now am a fuckin' mouse' Skrtel for a start.

[Yorkykopite]

over the last few seasons, when we have played tough matches, we have had a player in the middle of the park, who has taken on the responsibility of demanding the ball from the defence and then directing and orchestrating our play.  Demanding the ball.  Whether this was done verbally or through body language, positioning, personality, whatever; he got that ball off those players.  And then he got it again and again.  He was a game changer.  Sunderland away last season, funnily enough, was a perfect example of a game which was changed by such a player.  I forget his name.

I really, really like Lucas.  Really.  But if there is one criticism I will level at him it is that he doesn't assert himself in the same way.  We can make excuses for him, whatever they maybe, but he needs to start making a similar impact on games.  I don't know if he needs to pistol-whip Carragher in the showers to get these fuckers to take some notice but he needs to do something.

He does a lot of good things which go unnoticed, as HBHR and Baz have pointed out, and that would be good enough if we were winning games and so on.  But we are not winning games, in fact we're losing games, so he needs to to do a little more.

I say this, but it's not just him, there are a few others who need to look at their form and start performing for the team.

Martin 'I was hard as nails but now am a fuckin' mouse' Skrtel for a start.

I agree with most of that. The crucial thing I'd change however is this:

over the last few seasons, when we have played tough matches, we have had a player in the middle of the park called Xabi Alonso, who has taken on the responsibility of demanding the ball from the defence and then directing and orchestrating our play.

That's not just me being loyal to the best Liverpool player of the last 10 years. It's me pointing to the true dimension of our problem. I don't believe that Mascherano has ever had the ability to do what you say. Nor, as phenomenal as he is in other areas of the pitch, has Gerrard. Therefore it isn't a question of players re-discovering their appetite for taking responsibility in midfield. It's much worse than that.

Perhaps Aquilani will become the player we hanker for. But I wouldn't bet on it. His skill set seems better aplied further up the pitch than Alonso's. Plus it will take time for him to adapt to the cruel pace of the Premier League (not the least amazing thing about Xabi was he looked the part from his debut v Bolton. But most players aren't like that).

The Lucas problem is that he's being played in the wrong position. He, too, is a more adventurous player than he's being allowed to show. Roy used to call him 'Alonso-lite' but I never saw that in Lucas. Lucas was much more effective than Alonso in getting beyond the ball - and not nearly as effective at taking charge at the back. His natural playing partner is not Mascherano because the Argentine is not able to construct anything from the back either. The saddest thing about losing Alonso (apart from losing him!) is the effect it has had on Lucas's development. I felt sure after seeing Lucas and Alonso play together last season (which they did about twice only) that this was the natural pairing for us in the middle. 

I'd buy Kulchy, the 35 year-old Belarus player, in the winter transfer window. A short-gap solution of course. Our next big signing for next season needs to be an adequate replacement for Alonso. Hopefully Mascherano will improve his game too so that we can offload him for a reasonable amount next summer. His heart is clearly elsewhere. My heart says I wish he'd gone to Barca last summer for big bucks - and we'd got someone like Huddlestone who can actually play a bit.   

 

[scatman]

yorky gotta agree with you for the majority of your post there, Masch has to be the orchestrator but doesnt have the prerequisites to do that role like Alonso. Rafa has tried to change the way we play but it hasnt worked, it's like were in the middle of an identity crisis, the team doesnt know how its supposed to play. Our wingers cant get a good ball into the box for shit, we are pants at set pieces at both ends, and our main CB's are now both scared of facing attackers and scared on the ball. At the other end we have games were the top 4 get plenty of service but cant hold onto the ball or put together a few passes for shit. Big Big game tommorow night, we need a change, I hope Masch starts and just plays passionately, I feel we need just one player to up the tempo and show a bit of verve and the rest of the team will follow as suit. I feel Skrtel needs to be dropped, we just can't afford to leave the Dane out, with the unproductivity from Lucas and Masch, that ball playing defender makes a lot of difference. Against Fat faces team the midfield was compeltely bypassed on numerous occasions, hopefully with Agger back this will change as he wont be hoofing it long all the time, plus he can play Alonso-esque passes that the majority are pandering for.

[Hank Scorpio]

Hopefully Mascherano will improve his game too so that we can offload him for a reasonable amount next summer. His heart is clearly elsewhere. My heart says I wish he'd gone to Barca last summer for big bucks - and we'd got someone like Huddlestone who can actually play a bit.   

Can't get rid of Mascherano quick enough if I'm honest.  The guy has had his head turned and he is not a Ronaldo type of player where he can change the game in a split second.  Without the desire and commitment, he's not even half the player.

In hindsight, if it was one of our midfielders that went in the summer, I would have preferred Mascherano to have funded the Aquilani transfer.  There's a massive difference in the way Alonso handled a summer which didn't go his way (2008), to the way Mascherano is handling this past summers 'disappointment'.  I know which one I would rather go to war with.

[Yorkykopite]

Can't get rid of Mascherano quick enough if I'm honest.  The guy has had his head turned and he is not a Ronaldo type of player where he can change the game in a split second.  Without the desire and commitment, he's not even half the player.

In hindsight, if it was one of our midfielders that went in the summer, I would have preferred Mascherano to have funded the Aquilani transfer.  There's a massive difference in the way Alonso handled a summer which didn't go his way (2008), to the way Mascherano is handling this past summers 'disappointment'.  I know which one I would rather go to war with.

His attitude was poor of course. It was slightly contemptuous of Liverpool as a club. But the main thing with Mascherano isn't his attitude. It's his limited ability. Within very narrow parameters he's the best midfielder in the world. That's to say, his recovery pace is awesome. He's also excellent at sticking a toe in and winning 50-50 tackles when play is extremely compressed. Outside those parameters - which is where most of the game is played - he's pretty ordinary. He reads little situations well but he's got absolutely no idea of the big picture. While Alonso was doing all the other stuff last season, Mascherano was able to excel at his limited remit. But now without Alonso he's revealed himself as a midfielder to whom things happen rather than the other way round - a midfielder who makes things happen.

Sadly for him he'll never get his move to Barcelona because he's nowhere near good enough for them. They'd want Fabregas because Fabregas is a sensational player who imposes himself on games. Mascherano can't. Does this mean we're stuck with him? I hope not. My philosophy for our great club is that if someone isn't anywhere good enough for Barca then he's not good enough for us either. Let's hope another Spanish team with more money than sense takes him off our hands next summer.

We are left with a huge problem though. The awesome hole that Alonso's departure has created. I'm not surprised Rafa looks and sounds depressed because there isn't a solution to this problem within the club. Nor do we have the money to compete with Man Utd who have a similar problem in central midfield, let alone Man City. That's why we require an inventive solution in the winter window. My suggestion that we get Kulchy (is that even his fucking name?) might strike people as silly. The bloke is 35 and one step away from being tinned meat. But if that performance against England is anything to go by he'd have a huge, Gary McAllister-like, impact at Liverpool - even if it were only for 6 months. 

[Hank Scorpio]

His attitude was poor of course. It was slightly contemptuous of Liverpool as a club. But the main thing with Mascherano isn't his attitude. It's his limited ability. Within very narrow parameters he's the best midfielder in the world. That's to say, his recovery pace is awesome. He's also excellent at sticking a toe in and winning 50-50 tackles when play is extremely compressed. Outside those parameters - which is where most of the game is played - he's pretty ordinary. He reads little situations well but he's got absolutely no idea of the big picture. While Alonso was doing all the other stuff last season, Mascherano was able to excel at his limited remit. But now without Alonso he's revealed himself as a midfielder to whom things happen rather than the other way round - a midfielder who makes things happen.

Sadly for him he'll never get his move to Barcelona because he's nowhere near good enough for them. They'd want Fabregas because Fabregas is a sensational player who imposes himself on games. Mascherano can't. Does this mean we're stuck with him? I hope not. My philosophy for our great club is that if someone isn't anywhere good enough for Barca then he's not good enough for us either. Let's hope another Spanish team with more money than sense takes him off our hands next summer.

We are left with a huge problem though. The awesome hole that Alonso's departure has created. I'm not surprised Rafa looks and sounds depressed because there isn't a solution to this problem within the club. Nor do we have the money to compete with Man Utd who have a similar problem in central midfield, let alone Man City. That's why we require an inventive solution in the winter window. My suggestion that we get Kulchy (is that even his fucking name?) might strike people as silly. The bloke is 35 and one step away from being tinned meat. But if that performance against England is anything to go by he'd have a huge, Gary McAllister-like, impact at Liverpool - even if it were only for 6 months. 

Harsh on the player that, yorky.

He is no Fabregas/Alonso on the ball but he plays a huge part in regaining possession for his team, an attribute the modern game has a great demand for.  There are hardly any other midfielders who read the game, break up play and win the 2nd ball like Mascherano does.  He was immense against Chelsea. 

The thing is despite not being awesome on the ball, he does have enough about him to be good enough on the ball.  He just needs to pop 5-10 yard passes here and there to the centrebacks and his midfield partner.  I've seen the fucker do it for Argentina, albeit a few years ago now.  If he pulls his head out of Barcelona's arse then maybe he would take note.  Instead we get the Carragher style standing on the ball and passes out of play.

[Yorkykopite]

Harsh on the player that, yorky.

He is no Fabregas/Alonso on the ball but he plays a huge part in regaining possession for his team, an attribute the modern game has a great demand for.  There are hardly any other midfielders who read the game, break up play and win the 2nd ball like Mascherano does.  He was immense against Chelsea. 

The thing is despite not being awesome on the ball, he does have enough about him to be good enough on the ball.  He just needs to pop 5-10 yard passes here and there to the centrebacks and his midfield partner.  I've seen the fucker do it for Argentina, albeit a few years ago now.  If he pulls his head out of Barcelona's arse then maybe he would take note.  Instead we get the Carragher style standing on the ball and passes out of play.

My tone is harsh because I'm thoroughly pissed off. But the judgment? I did describe him as "the best midfielder in the world" at what he does. I just think his specialism is too narrow. He could get by when he was playing alongside Alonso because Alonso, in a defensive sense, was better at predicting problems early in a move and therefore provided the fundamental screen for our defence (leaving the spectacular defence to Masch). And, offensively (ie with the ball), Alonso did all the work.

I agree that Mascherano has shown himself accomplished at providing the 5 yard balls to colleagues that keep play ticking over. But your "albeit a few years ago" is interesting. Probably you're thinking of the last World Cup when Mascherano was the prompter-in-chief for Argentina (especially in the famous demolition of the Serbs). It was indeed wonderful to watch. But that kind of game - where the opposing team is pure lethargy and where absolutely no one on the ball is pressed until they are well inside the opponent's half - is such a rarity these days, especially in the Premier League. When Mascherano has all the time he needs on the ball he looks confident, even a little cocky, because he can play at his own pace. As soon as someone presses he either hides or makes stupid errors (the pass into the groaning crowd being one of the most common).

Alonso made him look much better than he is on the ball. Just as Cambiasso probably did for Argentina.   

[hassinator]

I'd buy Kulchy, the 35 year-old Belarus player, in the winter transfer window. A short-gap solution of course. Our next big signing for next season needs to be an adequate replacement for Alonso. Hopefully Mascherano will improve his game too so that we can offload him for a reasonable amount next summer. His heart is clearly elsewhere. My heart says I wish he'd gone to Barca last summer for big bucks - and we'd got someone like Huddlestone who can actually play a bit.   

 

yorky i know you love xabi but surely the whole reason we got £30m for him is that there aren't that many players actually like him anywhere in the market or madrid would have sought another orchestrator?  if anyone does emerge who is as good or better it makes sense that they will cost even more which would put them out of our price range. 

i know we've been over this ground before but i think there is no debating that barry would be currently making our midfield look a whole lot more solid than it has been since the start of the season - and therefore our also very porous defence - but that options gone now too so we have to try and work with what we have.  still i'm surprised you'd seemingly take huddlestone over him as he's never really impressed me beyond that moment of potential a couple of years ago.

there was a thread on the main board - quickly locked - which suggested that rafa had done a deal with management for whatever reason.  i thought it an interesting area of discussion not least with the tony barrat comments about rafa not selling voronin or dossena as he wasn't guaranteed to get the fees returned for replacements but the gist i think we all know is that we're not currently cash rich and rafa's going to have to make do and mend for the rest of the season or start to get us playing something closer to the 4-3-3 that the purchase of aquliani suggests.

we're currently in a shit patch but our backs are against the wall now and we really need to win our next two games to get things back on track.  our current personnel doesn't seem to be doing the business but lets see how masch an co look when they're well rested from their travels and the chips are properly down.  if we're still struggling for explanations after the next two games then we really are in trouble.

[Yorkykopite]

yorky i know you love xabi but surely the whole reason we got £30m for him is that there aren't that many players actually like him anywhere in the market or madrid would have sought another orchestrator?  if anyone does emerge who is as good or better it makes sense that they will cost even more which would put them out of our price range. 

i know we've been over this ground before but i think there is no debating that barry would be currently making our midfield look a whole lot more solid than it has been since the start of the season - and therefore our also very porous defence - but that options gone now too so we have to try and work with what we have.  still i'm surprised you'd seemingly take huddlestone over him as he's never really impressed me beyond that moment of potential a couple of years ago.

......

we're currently in a shit patch but our backs are against the wall now and we really need to win our next two games to get things back on track.  our current personnel doesn't seem to be doing the business but lets see how masch an co look when they're well rested from their travels and the chips are properly down.  if we're still struggling for explanations after the next two games then we really are in trouble.

I understand the reason we got 30 mill for Alonso. In fact I was a life-long member of the organisation which said "Alonso is priceless and must never be sold under any circumstances". The reasoning - which we all share now, but which used to be contested by those who felt Alonso had been poor for two seasons (ha!) - was that there was no replacement anywhere else on the planet. Pirlo, maybe. But some time in 2006 Alonso overtook Pirlo as the best deep-lying midfielder in the world. He's obviously streets ahead now. So 30 mill in the end was nice, but poor compensation for our loss.

Barry would not have been a good buy for us. You disagree I know, and we've been over that ground too many times. I'm not a huge fan of Huddlestone either but I do think he's a better player than Barry. He is, of course, a very good passer and much quicker than most midfielders in making a decision. His main problem is that he's never been coached. I mean properly coached. Rafa could have done something with him.

Play Mascherano by all means. We have no one else to come in. But - and I know you won't like me for raising this either - if we play Mascherano then it becomes important that the postions ahead of him are filled with players who are quick and creative. A team with Mascherano and Kuyt in the starting 11 is a team far too short on creativity in midfield.     

[abhred]

A team with Mascherano and Kuyt in the starting 11 is a team far too short on creativity in midfield.     

Yet a Rafa team will ALWAYS have both.

[Hank Scorpio]

Play Mascherano by all means. We have no one else to come in. But - and I know you won't like me for raising this either - if we play Mascherano then it becomes important that the postions ahead of him are filled with players who are quick and creative. A team with Mascherano and Kuyt in the starting 11 is a team far too short on creativity in midfield.     

yorky mate, I think it was you who said something along the lines of '...let's put some footballers out there..' a couple pages back.

I found myself, not quite quietly nodding in agreement, but violently moving my head up and down with a bog eyed expression.

Sometimes it's best to have footballers in your football team.  It sounds simple, that's because it is.

[Yorkykopite]

Yet a Rafa team will ALWAYS have both.

The evidence of the past few games would suggest otherwise. The capitalised 'always' implies you don't agree.

I agree with you that the best teams in the world have both aggression and creativity throughout them. But the very best teams tend to combine these two elements in the same player.

Rafa's teams are not quite like that. They tend to have a percentage of creative players and another another percentage of aggressive ones. The demarcation between them is very pronounced when you compare us to our main competitors. This is not something I say because we're going through a wretched patch - it's something that's been troubling me for ages now. Rafa seems not to mind that Carragher for example is not creative. And he seems not to mind that his right-winger of the past two seasons is a 'stopper' rather than a 'creator'. I'm slightly caricaturing Kuyt when I say this perhaps, but I think we all know that a player like Kuyt would not enjoy the sort of immunity he gets at Liverpool if he played for Chelsea, Man Utd, Barca, Arsenal or any other of the top European teams. In fact Dirk has to come, more than any other player, to embody the Liverpool style. That's not surprising in one sense. Apart from Reina and Carragher no other player is guaranteed the minutes that Dirk gets for us.

That's a problem. I love his aggression, but am amazed at his ordinary technique. In 2009 the top players should have both. And they should especially have technique if they are anywhere near the opponent's goal.

[Juan Loco]

Can't get rid of Mascherano quick enough if I'm honest.  The guy has had his head turned and he is not a Ronaldo type of player where he can change the game in a split second.  Without the desire and commitment, he's not even half the player.

In hindsight, if it was one of our midfielders that went in the summer, I would have preferred Mascherano to have funded the Aquilani transfer.  There's a massive difference in the way Alonso handled a summer which didn't go his way (2008), to the way Mascherano is handling this past summers 'disappointment'.  I know which one I would rather go to war with.

I said this in the summer as well. Mascherano has fuck all reason to motivate himself through this season. He is guarenteed a place in that Argentina regardless of whether he is playing or not. Alonso on the otherhand could in no way allow his form to drop because there's plenty of very good Spanish midfielders waiting to knock him out of that squad (not least his own new teammate Granero, who always looks the better of the two when they play together).


I gotta say though Yorky, you're miles off to call Alonso the best player Liverpool have had in the past 10 years. Not even close. It would be debatable even if that was "the best player in the past 10 years not named Steven Gerrard", but in general? Not even in the same league. Gerrard walks home with that award at a canter.

[hassinator]

Barry would not have been a good buy for us. You disagree I know, and we've been over that ground too many times. I'm not a huge fan of Huddlestone either but I do think he's a better player than Barry. He is, of course, a very good passer and much quicker than most midfielders in making a decision. His main problem is that he's never been coached. I mean properly coached. Rafa could have done something with him.

Play Mascherano by all means. We have no one else to come in. But - and I know you won't like me for raising this either - if we play Mascherano then it becomes important that the postions ahead of him are filled with players who are quick and creative. A team with Mascherano and Kuyt in the starting 11 is a team far too short on creativity in midfield.     

fair play big man.  i only bang on about barry as he was in the frame and i think he'd be better than we currently have to field but hopefully after a month or so aquilani will have blown our collective minds; a new (co-)owner will be in place and we can reinforce until the cows come home in january.

hard not to agree with your points re masch and playing footballers not just athletes around him.  losing alonso was always going to be disruptive and touchee with your point re his value.  still players leave clubs and clubs have to move on.  we lost keegan etc etc  but right now the main issue seems actually to be masch's attitude and commitment to the collective cause.  he won't be going anywhere until the end of the season at the earliest - does anyone see rafa writing him off in january if he keeps on like this? - but how do we get the best out of him or at least start getting him to play like the argentina captain again?

also fair play on huddlestone.  he is a big unit and has some flair i somehow always presumed he'd become a centre half not least as spurs have had their injury problems there.  still he's not someone who'd get my pulse racing and while he's not even on the england fringes i can't see him coming cheap.

what is absolutely crystal clear is that we absolutely have to get our finger out for the next two games or all this chat will be a waste of good honest typing time.

[Vulmea]

I'm begining to despair of this thread - over analysing nonsense - yes you can point a a million different 'possible ' problems - creativity. agression blah blah blah - the truth is this squad finished 2nd last year and could bar some stupid results at home have cruised to the title.

Alonso, Arbeloa, Hyypia replaced by Johnson, Aquilani and Kyrgiakos.

The difference is clearly not on the personnel side, eulogise about Alonso all you want but he was present in most of those dull draws at Anfield - ok he played well last season and poorly the two seasons before - get over it.

We started this season as a shambles away at Spurs, we compounded it against Villa and we've crumbled mentally just as we did last season when we went top - too many players gone missing - we'd scored three last minute winners by this time last season - this season we've either missed them, not been given a penalty or given away a stupid penalty. Confidence and belief is non-existant.

They need something to make them believe - a win against Lyon or United could do that. Aquilani playing a blinder on his debut could do that - tahst all it will take - enough of the introspective crap.

[hassinator]

vulmea - largely agreed but its hard not to suspect that alonso leaving and mascherano wanting too has had something to do with the collapse of ability in central defence as well as the rest of the unit.

nothing breeds success like success so very happy if aquiliani hits the ground running and everyone else starts playing the way we know they can.

[Vulmea]

vulmea - largely agreed but its hard not to suspect that alonso leaving and mascherano wanting too has had something to do with the collapse of ability in central defence as well as the rest of the unit.

nothing breeds success like success so very happy if aquiliani hits the ground running and everyone else starts playing the way we know they can.

Thats my point though - its not the technical ability or make up of the squad  -  Alonso leaving has been allowed to become a much bigger issue than it should have been - its had too big a psychological effect  including on the 'fans' - as regards the 'collapse' in central defence - I think thats down to several factors - but mainly confidence - yes the back four has been largely disrupted by injuries, players carrying knocks, new faces bedding  in and as you say the cover in front has been poor - however its been set pieces (and results ) which started the rot  once a team dont believe they can defend then belief and confidence quickly dispears and I can't see any excuse for that given the change in personnel - Hyypia wasn't playing,  Johnson is probably taller than both  Arbeloa and Alonso.

If Masch or Reina or Torres had left instead of Alonso then I suspect exactly the same type of result - give players an excuse and they'll take it -

However get the mental side right and this squad should be better than last season - thats what we were told last year wasn't it?  The experience of running Man United close would see them improve.

Way to fragile mentally as demonstrated last year when top and i'm not sure why.

[Yorkykopite]

I'm begining to despair of this thread - over analysing nonsense - yes you can point a a million different 'possible ' problems - creativity. agression blah blah blah

Yeah, it's not everyone's cup of tea. Try your luck on the main board pal. 

[Pistol Pete]

it wasnt the board who signed average player after average player, it was all benitez. he can bang on about money all day long, but the fact is he's had plenty of money to try and build a football team and he's failed miserably IMO. it's his tactical nouse in europe which has saved him from the chop, but i think its only a matter of time before he leaves. i can see him jumping ship at the first sign of interest from a top club.

[sjh]

I didn't see the game and a lot of the chat has been about how bad the centre of midfield was.

So an open question. With the lack of 3 of our 4 best CM would we have been better off keeping a more usual defensive shape and going 4-5-1 with an extra body in midfield rather than a player in the hole.

Something like

------------ Reina

Johnson Carra Agger Dossena

--- Spearing Lucas Aurelio

Kuyt -------------------- Yossi

------------ Ngog

[hesbighesred]

Yeah, it's not everyone's cup of tea. Try your luck on the main board pal. 

Exactly, the whole point of what this thread has become is for people to analyse things and try and share theories, details etc. We don't always agree by any means but Vulmea - Yorky is spot on. If you don't like analysis, this is seriously the wrong thread for you. There's the entire rest of the site where in depth analysis is often frowned upon, and this is one of the few places it's truly welcomed, so don't come onto what is a niche thread, but a niche people really enjoy, and then tell people that their niche is all shitty. I'm sure you wouldn't appreciate it if I told that 'I despair' over whatever niche hobbies you might be into.

it wasnt the board who signed average player after average player, it was all benitez. he can bang on about money all day long, but the fact is he's had plenty of money to try and build a football team and he's failed miserably IMO. it's his tactical nouse in europe which has saved him from the chop, but i think its only a matter of time before he leaves. i can see him jumping ship at the first sign of interest from a top club.

Right. Except it wasn't, was it? We've established that it's only this season Rafa has had the same control over transfers his rivals enjoy. Previously, he's been able to provide a list of targets but it was Parry who actually decided how to divvy up the overall budget on those targets - if it were up to Rafa, for example, it's likely we'd have had Alves instead of Pennant.

To be honest with you Pete, it fucking does my head in when people start having pops at Rafa when they haven't taken the time to follow basic news about the club itself. That transfer situation was no secret. It's like the people slating him for not buying more quality attackers in the summer - even though he practically had to beg for a £2million defender.

So, actually, it was the fucking board who signed 'average player after average player'. The board also blocked Rafa from at least one free transfer that would have been extremely useful over the course of the last few seasons in Milan's Kaka Khaladze. In the circumstances, Rafa's transfer record is pretty impressive, I would say.

[Yorkykopite]

So, actually, it was the fucking board who signed 'average player after average player'.

I understand what you're saying. The board provided mean parameters. But there's no escaping that Rafa signed the players.

But can his transfer policy be described as "average player after average player"? Personally I'm only impressed by this argument if it can be shown to have been made last season when we were storming away, win after win after win. If Pistol Pete (that's a badminton player isn't it?) can prove to me he was complaining about Rafa's signings a year ago I'd probably want to listen to what he has to say. Unless of course he's talking about this season's signings. Is it Glen Johnson that's no good? Or perhaps he knows something about Aquilani that we don't?