Author Topic: The Level 3 Thread  (Read 1198953 times)

Offline Vulmea

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #8640 on: October 23, 2009, 02:51:12 pm »
The players who tend to carry the can after a defeat are always the technical players and never the physical ones. This is why I'm pessimistic right now. The longer this bad run goes on the more Rafa's caution and fear kick in and the more the likes of Carra and Kuyt are guaranteed a place in the team.

Lucas and Carra have been the main scapegoats this season neither would carry the tag ‘technical’. Kuyt was going into last season again not technical.

We are not a ‘physical’ side as we were under Houlier, we are not as quick as Arsenal or United nor as strong as Chelsea  - so in terms of ‘physical’ abilities I’m not sure its fair to accuse Rafa of preferring ‘physical’ players.

He does like Kuyt (so do I almost entirely because he’s a grafter who once he has the ball under control very rarely gives it away) his work rate is exceptional and we’ve always had a work horse on our right side whether it was Cally as he got older or Sammy or Johnstone or  Houghton whoever -  a player that gets up and down that flank works their nuts off covers for an attacking fullback, covers for a midfield runner, makes an extra body in the box. It was always best combined with a fast and tricky left winger – Heighway, Barnes….avoids the same sentence Kewell and Babel(or Leto, Gonzalez etc). I wouldn’t say this is a reliance on physical players but an essential ingredient in making a team function, the glue that holds it all together.

Rafa likes his ‘between the lines’ players – Garcia, Benayoun, his first choice centre forward was Morientes with whom he persisted for what seemed like forever –  I think if anything certainly to start with Rafa vastly underestimated the importance of the physical side of the game in the Prem (Josemi was another example) – the likes of Bolton, Blackburn, Stoke, even Everton to a certain extent show that the physical side is a major part in any team succeeding in the prem. Both our first choice fullbacks last season were slow, not particularly tall and not particularly strong with  a limited ability to get up and down the pitch  - one thing they couldn’t be accused of being was ‘physical’ players. Johnson on the other hand is more athlete than player imo yet gets called by some ‘technical’ because he's an attacking fullback.

You could argue the same with Rafa's dismissal of Cisse – fantastic physically – we could have gone the Auxerre route, which Houllier undoubtedly planned to do – then it would be fair to accuse Rafa of being reliant on the physical side  - he isn’t he can see its merits but also its drawbacks

I’m not sure technical players get blamed for anything – its currently our defence and Benitez that are carrying the burden. Very rarely do you see our technical players taking the brunt of anything rather it becomes a general lament for the ‘lack of creativity’.
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Offline redmark

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #8641 on: October 23, 2009, 03:29:18 pm »
Of course he's good enough.

Who could do better? Really?

I think he is good enough, notwithstanding a couple of concerns that have been resurrected this season. However - I've noticed in the last couple of weeks the rapid and extensive reappearance of the "who could do better?" line (which as a relatively early advocate against Houllier, I well remember on the official site). If that line even needs trotting out, we're in trouble. Seriously, if you feel the need to type that, I think you're backing away from a real defence and suppressing your own fears.

(The answer, by the way - is anyone. Once you reach a position where the only thing stopping a change of manager is doubt about who the new one should be, then the tea lady would do a more effective job. Players don't play for dead-man-walking managers. I don't believe Rafa is one, and hope he never becomes one, but the sudden number of "who could do better" posts from supposed big Rafa fans is alarming. When it's time to change manager, I think there is actually a lot of luck involved. Few managers do well at multiple clubs, while others find a 'fit' and excel at one. The right man for the job is not necessarily the best qualified. Unfortunately this relies on the owners making a smart, instinctive decision - not something to be expected from this pair.)

@Redmark - agree with a lot of that post but I can't agree on injuries. Injuries and bad luck are not exactly super-fresh herrings (that's the ownership debacle, that's a herring that can outswim an Orca in it's freshness) - but they're not red herrings either, no way. I'd call them roll-mops, I reckon. You point to the Fiorentina game. Well, may I remind you of our midfield that day, and that it was an injury to Mash which forced our hand?

Then, when we need a decent result after the break - what do we get? One of 'those' breaks, where everyone who could get injured DID get injured (almost) - plus a big healthy dollop of horrific luck against Sunderland and Lyon too (one a clear non-goal allowed, one a clear goal disallowed).

Sorry, but still a red herring. The rot didn't start in Florence, which I just used as an example. Even if it had, if a team can't deal with a player like Mascherano missing a (very) occasional game, they're fucked. Seriously. On that specific game, we can infact argue whether the problem was central midfield - which was awful - or the entire team - which was also awful. If it was central midfield (and I think they were a particular weakness), that just bounces back on Rafa for putting Aurelio in there; an idea that was discussed in this very thread weeks ago and not met with particularly universal approval.

But the signs have been there before Fiorentina. A trio of heavy (but flattering?) home wins against Stoke, Burnley and Hull can't quite cover the performances at Spurs, or home to Villa, or the stuttering 1-0's over Debrecen and League 1 Leeds. We've not played well except for brief spells of fluency at home to poor opposition. Bolton was a demonstration of spirit, not quality. Gerrard, Torres, Mascherano and Johnson have played most of those games. The player we've perhaps missed most is Agger; but even that is partly because of the poor form of Carragher and Skrtel, who were mostly fine last season. Insua, despite a few errors, has generally covered perfectly well in Aurelio's absence. Aquilani can't be brought into the equation because his injury isn't 'unlucky', we bought him like that.
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Offline hesbighesred

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #8642 on: October 23, 2009, 03:42:55 pm »
HBHR, i think its only fair Rafa, who gets the credit for the surge last season and being so close to the eventual winners, has to get the blame for our horrible start. Its not the fact that we lose, it is that we seemed like cowards who didnt have the guts to give it all. Its all gone full circle, but some of the defence that Rafa's backers, so to speak, have put up is being put on a strain right now. Money, its all the players to blame, Xabi wanted to go, Carra is the only leader etc, is about as convincing as our recent displays.
Did you miss the whole bit I wrote about the broken homes analogy? It doesn't work like that. We are playing with a millstone around our necks. Rafa deserves credit if he can lift that millstone for a time, but he can't take the full blame if circumstances change and he needs to take a break from carrying it.

I'll start giving Rafa 'full' blame, if you like, the day that millstone is removed. While it remains, it is completely impossible to judge to what extent Rafa is to blame, and I can only assume he deserves enourmous credit because I struggle to see examples of other clubs, of any stature, under any manager, doing this well under this kind of off field pressure. I'd be happy for you to name some managers who have enjoyed great success, with less money etc, while being totally undermined by an incompetent and infighting board.

I also used that analogy because it says a lot about why we look so dispirited - I came from an unhappy childhood and I can tell you from experience that the hardest times are when you think happiness might just be ahead, only to go home and be reminded yet again that it's the same old shit every time. It can make you go from being on top of the world one day to being worse than you've ever been the next, without anything 'new' even needing to happen. It's the same here - the players maybe finally feel like that millstone has been lifted for ever, yet before the season even starts their 'parents' have a massive row, dragging them right into it in all sorts of emotional ways, and that 'belief', strong though it was, is deeply cracked.

Then we lose at a tough, tough away ground (just the kind of fixture we didn't need to start the season with), having had a stone-wall penalty denied, and to top it off get the press on our backs instantly about alonso, and that disgraceful whining loser Rafa, who dared to point to a stonewall penalty AS WELL AS congratulating Spurs on a deserved win.

Seeing as the fans did exactly the same thing - IE went from on top of the world, glory days are here again to depressed cowardly wimps with barely any fight left in us, how can you really expect different of the players, and how can you then say that all of that is Rafa's fault? Doesn't make any sense to me.

Going back to your question, is he the right man, PLEASE, I'd love for you to give me an example of ANYONE who's done better in anything like these kind of circumstances? I'm pretty damn sure there are none, but I may well re-assess Rafa's performance if you can name any, preferably more recent ones when the game has been more comparable.
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Offline hesbighesred

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #8643 on: October 23, 2009, 03:44:48 pm »
I agree with every word of that Vulmea.
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Offline hesbighesred

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #8644 on: October 23, 2009, 04:15:41 pm »
Sorry, what?

It's backing out of a 'real defence' of Rafa to point out that he's one of the best, and that alternatives do not exist, by which I CLEARLY MEAN managers who have succeeded in the 'broken home' scenario we find ourselves in? Would you be dismissing that as an irrelevant question if we'd had Klinsmann in and he'd had as much 'success' as he gave Bayern Munich, a club with a board Rafa would give his testicles for?

If my girlfriend says she want to get rid of our TV, Isn't it fair I ask here what she intends to replace it with? If she says, well, I saw a lovely 40" plasma that we can easily afford - fucking bang on. Bye bye TV. If she says, well, I've got that old portable with the dodgy aerial I found in a skip then it's - fuck off love. The TV stays, thank you very much.

Is the problem with the question, or the difficulty people have in answering it? For the record, I could have come up with at least a few solid shouts to replace Houllier. The only ones, success wise, CV wise, likelihood of winning wise that spring to mind when it comes to Rafa never won those things without being given a pile of cash to impose their vision on the team when they took over.

If we're asking the question, 'is Rafa the right man'? Then I struggle to see a MORE relevant question than, 'if not him, who else'? I mean, I assume we'd have to replace him with someone, right? That person is going to have to be a better manager to even have a hope of doing better, right? So WHO?

Oh, sorry. Anyone. Right. Tell that to Newcastle fans. I'm sure they'll be fucking queuing up to agree with you on that one. Or Spurs fans. Anyone. Tea lady would do a better job? I never thought I'd read that on this thread, yet I know that you are sound as fuck, and I love your posts generally, and respect your views.

Well, you've succeeded in getting me very worried indeed, in a way I wasn't before, and making me feel that Rafa's situation is a fuck lot more precarious than I thought it was.

Still, on the flip side - I don't think that Tomkins interview would have happened if he really had lost the dressing room, or were close to losing it. I would bloody hope not anyway.
----------

Also, with that second part you're making it sound like I'm putting it all down to injuries and closing my ears and eyes to players bad performances. That's just simply not the case - I've discussed the problems as I personally see them on the pitch and player wise at length here and in many other places on the board, and indeed my own ideas as to what might help. I'm not having that injuries and luck don't play a part though.

Sure, Aurelio looks a bad mistake in hindsight (getting worse all the time) - but it was still a decision, to an extent, forced on the manager. Sure, if we struggle if someone like Mash is out we're in trouble - but then you need luck when you take a gamble like Aquilani, we didn't get it, but also you sometimes HAVE to take the gamble to get the big prize - unless of course you've got piles of cash to spend, but we don't, so we have to take the odd risk other managers wouldn't, and we need the luck when we take those risks. It's not an excuse, it's a fact. It's not the root of all our problems, but it's a factor. It hasn't caused our bad performances but goddamn it, It does make it that bit harder to lift your head after a defeat like Fio when your star players then get injured playing in pointless games, and you lose the next game to a goal scored by fucking beachball.

Or are you telling me that people don't work like that? That when you're on top of the world, then suddenly you find out someone in your family has died, and then you lose a job because of someone else's incompetence (for example) that it doesn't make things really, really hard to cope with for a long while?

Plus, that's without going into the ongoing, ever heavy millstone of our ownership situation which is a factor so massive that it's become like the blind Indians describing an elephant. No-one talks about the elephant anymore because they can only feel bits of it - it's just too big for us to accept it as the whole thing.

So we talk about an off form Carra, Rafa's dodgy subs, Gerrard's court case etc. In short, we're trying to tidy the kitchen while it's on fire. I don't blame people for doing that, but I also very strongly reserve my right to take a bit of perspective on the effectiveness of our kitchen cleaner (Rafa) when he's trying to clean it with it burning down around him.

Looked at more coldly, and logically, if I were a betting man, or a statistician, I feel sure that by changing our manager our odds of improvement (very small, looked at data-wise a 'par for the course' manager with our finances has a around a 90% chance of finishing 5th, based on wages and squad cost, in a bit of statistical mapping that is HIGHLY accurate and consistent, IE top wages wins 90% of the time) are absolutely dwarfed by our chances of horrible underperformance (bearing in mind that our par score now would be 5th in the league - because it is somewhat easier to underperform based on wages than it is to overperform) - if nothing else because looked at rationally, even without the ownership issue and purely on a financial basis, we are ALREADY significantly overperforming, and have done ever since Rafa took charge.

« Last Edit: October 23, 2009, 04:17:59 pm by hesbighesred »
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Offline redy

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #8645 on: October 23, 2009, 05:59:31 pm »
I think he is good enough, notwithstanding a couple of concerns that have been resurrected this season. However - I've noticed in the last couple of weeks the rapid and extensive reappearance of the "who could do better?" line (which as a relatively early advocate against Houllier, I well remember on the official site). If that line even needs trotting out, we're in trouble. Seriously, if you feel the need to type that, I think you're backing away from a real defence and suppressing your own fears.

(The answer, by the way - is anyone. Once you reach a position where the only thing stopping a change of manager is doubt about who the new one should be, then the tea lady would do a more effective job. Players don't play for dead-man-walking managers. I don't believe Rafa is one, and hope he never becomes one, but the sudden number of "who could do better" posts from supposed big Rafa fans is alarming. When it's time to change manager, I think there is actually a lot of luck involved. Few managers do well at multiple clubs, while others find a 'fit' and excel at one. The right man for the job is not necessarily the best qualified. Unfortunately this relies on the owners making a smart, instinctive decision - not something to be expected from this pair.)

Sorry, but still a red herring. The rot didn't start in Florence, which I just used as an example. Even if it had, if a team can't deal with a player like Mascherano missing a (very) occasional game, they're fucked. Seriously. On that specific game, we can infact argue whether the problem was central midfield - which was awful - or the entire team - which was also awful. If it was central midfield (and I think they were a particular weakness), that just bounces back on Rafa for putting Aurelio in there; an idea that was discussed in this very thread weeks ago and not met with particularly universal approval.

But the signs have been there before Fiorentina. A trio of heavy (but flattering?) home wins against Stoke, Burnley and Hull can't quite cover the performances at Spurs, or home to Villa, or the stuttering 1-0's over Debrecen and League 1 Leeds. We've not played well except for brief spells of fluency at home to poor opposition. Bolton was a demonstration of spirit, not quality. Gerrard, Torres, Mascherano and Johnson have played most of those games. The player we've perhaps missed most is Agger; but even that is partly because of the poor form of Carragher and Skrtel, who were mostly fine last season. Insua, despite a few errors, has generally covered perfectly well in Aurelio's absence. Aquilani can't be brought into the equation because his injury isn't 'unlucky', we bought him like that.


When people say who could do better, I think there are a couple of meanings to it.

One is where his defenders mean that even though he is doing a mediocre job, nobody else could do any better. That is what you are talking about, right? If so, that is similar to Houlier and dangerous and I agree with you in that situation even the tealady could do better.

The other is if I am not mistaken what people like HBHR are saying, that Rafa is doing a great job (particularly in extenuating circumstances) and they doubt anybody (Ferguson/Wenger/Mourinho) could be more successful.

I see those two totally different meanings in that "who could do better?"

I do agree about the injuries being a red herring though.

But what I want to ask is why is the issue of possible successors being discussed and why is it talked about as if he has to be replaced or something. Seriously. This position is awful and sure he has to take a lot of blame for this. And I think there are worying issues here. But so what? Everybody faces crises. Shouldn't Rafa get a chance to correct it? Ferguson went through a horrible period most of it his making and he changed it around. What I am absolutely surprised is this need to defend him from being changed. Surely what he has done so far has earned him the right to a chance to change it around. He has just challenged for the title, and the moment he faces a crisis his position is in danger? I can't believe that.

My point is as bad as the situation is and as much as he is to blame here surely he can change it around. I wouldn't sack him whatever happens this season, even if there is no champions league next year.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2009, 06:07:38 pm by redy »

Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #8646 on: October 23, 2009, 06:48:58 pm »
He does like Kuyt (so do I almost entirely because he’s a grafter who once he has the ball under control very rarely gives it away) his work rate is exceptional and we’ve always had a work horse on our right side whether it was Cally as he got older or Sammy or Johnstone or  Houghton whoever -  a player that gets up and down that flank works their nuts off covers for an attacking fullback, covers for a midfield runner, makes an extra body in the box.

All those players you mention were indeed real grafters. So was McManaman. Where they all differ from Kuyt though is that they were technically accomplished. Kuyt would never have got near a Paisley XI because he gives the ball away too cheaply. His turning circle is slow and wide and he invariably gets possessed when he sets out on that extraordinary arc of his. His first touch is too heavy and that means the impetus usually goes out of a move as soon as the play comes to him. His acceleration is also non-existent which means the pitch becomes absurdly 'small' when the ball is on his side of the field. Unlike all the players you mention (bar Craig Johnston possibly) Kuyt also doesn't seem to be one of those footballers who really thinks ahead - who has in his mind's eye an idea of what he'd like to do with the ball before it comes. Given all these shortcomings I find it really surprising he plays every single game.

Graft is essential. It's traditionally what all Liverpool players brought to the team. It's what made Keegan different, in his age, from someone like Currie or McKenzie. But no one ever got chosen because of graft alone, let alone praised for it. These players had technique and vision too, and in Cally's, Macca's, Houghton's and Johnson's cases, some genuine pace.
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Offline redmark

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #8647 on: October 23, 2009, 07:03:22 pm »
Sorry, what?

Hopefully we have a misunderstanding based on my being too brief in a couple of points made (and too trivial/dismissive with the tea lady comment), so I'll explain my thoughts a little better (but rearranging quotes of your post a little to do so).

It's backing out of a 'real defence' of Rafa to point out that he's one of the best, and that alternatives do not exist, by which I CLEARLY MEAN managers who have succeeded in the 'broken home' scenario we find ourselves in? Would you be dismissing that as an irrelevant question if we'd had Klinsmann in and he'd had as much 'success' as he gave Bayern Munich, a club with a board Rafa would give his testicles for?

If my girlfriend says she want to get rid of our TV, Isn't it fair I ask here what she intends to replace it with? If she says, well, I saw a lovely 40" plasma that we can easily afford - fucking bang on. Bye bye TV. If she says, well, I've got that old portable with the dodgy aerial I found in a skip then it's - fuck off love. The TV stays, thank you very much.

f we're asking the question, 'is Rafa the right man'? Then I struggle to see a MORE relevant question than, 'if not him, who else'? I mean, I assume we'd have to replace him with someone, right? That person is going to have to be a better manager to even have a hope of doing better, right? So WHO?

Oh, sorry. Anyone. Right. Tell that to Newcastle fans. I'm sure they'll be fucking queuing up to agree with you on that one. Or Spurs fans. Anyone. Tea lady would do a better job? I never thought I'd read that on this thread, yet I know that you are sound as fuck, and I love your posts generally, and respect your views.

Well, you've succeeded in getting me very worried indeed, in a way I wasn't before, and making me feel that Rafa's situation is a fuck lot more precarious than I thought it was.

Still, on the flip side - I don't think that Tomkins interview would have happened if he really had lost the dressing room, or were close to losing it. I would bloody hope not anyway.

No, pointing out that Rafa is one of the best is fine. I absolutely agree with it. To clarify my position, I fully support him. I can't think of any manager I'd be confident of doing a better job. I can't think of any manager I'd want to try, even without that confidence. I want Rafa here for the next 10 years; but - importantly - because I want him to be winning trophies for us.

What is worrying for me - similarly to yourself perhaps, "in a way I wasn't before" - is the sudden appearance of "well, who else?" comments from thoughtful intelligent posters like yourself who should be able to come up with a rather more plausible defence of Rafa and of the causes of the situation we're in. Now, that doesn't mean you haven't offered other points - but some of them don't convince, to be frank.Throughout my years as a Liverpool fan I think I can honestly say I haven't worried about a refereeing decision (or a beachball) for longer than 30 minutes after a game. The odd injury should be shrugged off. I really don't buy the broken home analogy (and on your later rather extreme point comparing the situation at the club to the loss of a family member; what exactly is affecting the players as much as the death of a family member would? Why is Dirk Kuyt actually playing worse than when he did infact lose his dad?)..

Now. Back to the point I made too briefly earlier - which I'll do with Houllier, rather than with Rafa. Every supporter has a point at which they can lose faith, confidence, or belief in a manager. With some managers (e.g. Paisley), it might never be reached. With others, for some fans, it can be reached relatively quickly. That is a personal tipping point; the moment at which the concerns all mesh together to form a irreversible decision: he has to go. I can remember on .tv a handful of posters reached it very quickly with Houllier (one or two I think by usernames are on RAWK). I reached it fairly quickly. A gradual process evolves in which the 'antis' gather pace. I'm not talking about 'kneejerkers' (crap word), or those who register under a new name every time they want to change their opinion. The gathering pace of discontent is rather like an avalanche; a long, slow rumble followed by a sudden devastating collapse, as eventually all but the tiniest number of most rose-tinted go with the inevitable.

As I say, I'm struck by the sudden appearance of "who could possibly replace him?". I agree that, statistically, any possible replacement will almost certainly be a failure. We would have to be incredibly lucky. Note though, we were lucky in replacing Houllier. We could have stuck with his unattractive but reasonably effective style, won the odd cup and had regular, if uninspiring, CL football. By replacing him, we were leaping into the unknown. Rafa was not a guaranteed success, however impressive the man or the cv. Sometimes managers just don't 'fit' in every job. Even if they do, they need luck (as well as ability) to get the time they need. Would Rafa still be here if we hadn't (with a few slices of luck) won the CL in 2005? I really don't know. Now, on the flip side of very good managers not necessarily being a success everywhere they go, the best manager for us or any other club at any given point in time might not be the obvious, or best qualified, or most knowledgeable, candidate. The best manager is the one who fits the club, at that time, in their particular situation.

Ferguson is an excellent example - clearly not the best tactician in the world, overrated as a man-manager, with a patchy transfer record (ignored and glossed over due to success and hefty resources). Why has he been so damnably successful? Because he was the perfect fit for the club. The perfect man to give an underachieving sleeping giant the arrogance, bunker mentality and belief it needed. The perfect man to cleanout an underachieving squad and replace them with tough pros (McClair and Hughes in his first successful team, for instance). The perfect man to pick up a batch of talented youngsters and mould them, instilling in them a quiet (or not so quiet, in Neville's case) arrogance and unshakeable self-belief. Of course even Ferguson needed luck and was famously a goal away from the sack.

OK. The point of this is that we don't know who the best man for the job is, if and when the job is vacant. This is why the question "who else?" is the wrong question. Is Benitez the right man for the job? Yes or no. Don't qualify it with "who else?" - you might as well say "well, I'm not really sure anymore, but I can't think of anyone better, so he'll have to do". To thrown your broken home analogy on it's head, would you marry someone on that basis? With Houllier - the treble is the great sex, before you realise all when that declines all that is on offer is a life of miserable drudgery and shopping in Asda. It's not about whether or not you know someone better or not, but we as football fans - of a truly big club, not Newcastle or Spurs - are romantics. We want the love of our life, not someone we'll put up with out of fear of loneliness. Rafa supporters (and I am still one) need to have the courage of their convictions. Is he the right man for the job? Yes or no.

Now, back on the Houllier avalanche (I'm sure that's the wrong metaphor, but nevermind). As the 'antis' began to gather pace, the question "who else?" became the rose-tinted's last real objection. After so long, 'bad luck' rings hollow, people notice that injuries aren't bad luck if you're signing injury prone players, endlessly 'turning a corner' becomes going round in circles. This is why I'm alarmed at the recent "who else?" - yours more than most. Have we really reached that point already? Are we among the blind, late to spot the avalanche hurtling our way? Or is it just that we're still not getting to the root of the problems, thus clinging to red herrings (can you cling to a red herring?), unconvincing analogies and the last resort, "who else?".

From the Houllier experience, I know that the personal tipping point - the day you decide you want him gone - is final. It doesn't matter if you win a few games and an FA Cup after that. He'll never win the title. He's a spent force, taken us as far as he can. I don't care that I don't know who the best replacement is - because any half-decent replacement might just be the right one, in the right place, at the right time - and Houllier isn't it. At that point, yes, you want the manager gone as soon as possible. If we have to go through painful rebuilding - and possibly a failure of an interim manager - better get started as soon as possible.

Not many on here, or at the games, seem to have reached this point - and almost none of the more thoughtful or articulate on here. But they're not the ones who call TalkSport or 606. They're not the ones who think if Richard Keys says something often enough, it must be true, or that Stan Collymore is a proper football journalist. At the point a club is about to change managers, or there is pressure to do so, suddenly the chairman or owner needs to show if not football knowledge, then people skills, intuition and a knack for making the right decisions - whether to change, and who it will be. Mike Ashley doesn't have it. We have been fortunate over the years that our club have generally made good decisions. Do we trust the current owners to do so? Easy one, that...

We're not at this point. But there are warning signs. Not just the 'general media', but the number of ex-Reds with criticisms is building up. The instinctive reaction of parts of the crowd on Tuesday should be a red flag. The team - manager and players - need to address whatever issues there are, very very quickly.


(I don't buy your broken home analogy - because Rafa is the daddy (Sammy Lee the mother :)). The team are the family - Gerrard and Carragher elder brothers, etc. The owners are just Dad's employer, in difficult times, mortgaged to the hilt and with the mortgage company losing patience. Distracting, upsetting, yes. But it doesn't destroy the family unit. If there is a breakdown in the family, it's between players, or between manager and players.)

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Offline Degs

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #8648 on: October 23, 2009, 08:33:29 pm »
I don't want Rafa to leave but if he did Mancini would suit me fine as a replacement. Failing that Hiddink will be on the market come next August, could even be sooner depending on the play-off result.

There's always alternatives, it's too easy to say there's nobody else available to do the job and it's a backhanded compliment on Rafa.

Offline Vulmea

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #8649 on: October 23, 2009, 09:34:54 pm »
The main criticisms of Rafa appear to be he’s had enough time, he’s wasted all the money, he can’t build a squad, he can’t motivate players, he’s tactically inept.

There is no evidence other than media spin and fan frustration for any of it from what I can see.

He adopted zonal marking and achieved the best defensive record against set pieces in the league for 3 years despite what Martin Tylers monkey has to say.

He introduced squad rotation which was criticised every day in the press until it was pointed out that United and Chelsea had copied him, where doing it more and they were winning  – then it was over rotation,  then it was resting Torres for a game,  then when Villa tried not to rotate and died in the second half of last season it was because they didn’t rotate their players.

At least the ‘he doesn’t understand the English game’ comments have gone away since he finished 2nd now he’s just supposed to be rubbish at everything.

He’s won the CL and come runner up and has won the FA Cup.

He’s taken the club from averaging 60 odd points to 80 odd points in the premier league.

He’s qualified for the CL for the last 5 years and gone onto the group stages every year. Something we had failed to do since it began.

He finished last season with Liverpools highest premiership points total and was a couple of bounces of the ball away from 1st.

Our current squad cost £145m. The Spurs, United, Chelsea and City first team squads have all cost substantially more. City to the tune of 100m. Making us the fifth most expensive squad.

Unlike United, Chelsea or City he has never been in a position to go out and buy the players he actually wants.

Likewise unlike City and Chelsea  he has never been in the position to go out and spend 100M in one season. Both of these are massive advantages when putting together a squad but both are casually dismissed as unimportant by fools to ignorant to look at anything other than the bottom line.

Our current wage bill is the 5th highest in the league behind – Arsenal, United, Chelsea and City with the latter two doubling our total.

Arsenal realising they could not compete for senior players with their first team salary cap in place have cornered the market in overpaying youngsters  hence the reason for their enormous wage bill despite a salary cap and the large number of top quality youngsters they can buy in at 18/19/20 years of age.

Ignoring the tabloid headlines Benitez has actually bought in 35 players who can legitimately be labelled first team or first squad players.

This includes 15 on free’s or players for less than 2 million.

These are players where we’ve spotted an opportunity or brought a player in as short term cover or taken a punt on a promising talent (e.g. Aurelio, Zenden, Voronin, Pellegrino, Fowler, Gonzalez. Leto, Kyrgiakos, Insua, Ngog, Josemi, Kromkamp, Itandje, Arbeloa, Nunez). 

A few have been good value – the likes of Aurelio, Arbeloa others have bombed like Itandje, Josemi but the majority have done what it said on the tin and come and gone having fulfilled the role they were bought in for.


In producing his current squad Benitez’s net spend (taking away player sales) is approximately 80 million and we are into his 6th year – making his average budget £13.5 million.

For decent money he has bought just 20 players and 12 of those are still at the club:

1 keeper(Reina),
1 right back (Johnson),
1 leftback (Dossena),
2 centre half’s (Agger and Skrtel);
4 central midfielders (Alonso, Mascherano, Sissoko Aquilani);
1 right midfielder (Pennant)
3 centre forwards (Morientes, Crouch, Kuyt)
2 strikers (Bellamy, Torres)
2 left wingers (Babel, Reira)
3 ‘in between the lines’ (Garcia, Benayoun, Keane)

Of those the failures  imo Dossena, Pennant, Morientes, Keane (with the jury out on Babel, Reira, Aquilani and Johnson) are very much in the minority when a 50% success rate should be looked at as a good return. I’m sure neither Pennant or Keane headed Rafa’s wish list. His main signings have in the main been excellent.

He also inherited a youth set up that has produced one decent player in 10 years. That’s over 150 kids at U18 level that haven’t made the grade for whatever reason. He has brought in approximately 50 kids ranging from 16 to 20 and is now revamping the youth set-up. Three lads have already made starting debuts this season.

There are plenty of criticisms of Rafa – our poor performances when favourites, our lack of bottle when top last year,  not seeming to react to the game delaying subs until the 65th minute regardless of events. I’d criticise him heavily for sitting back in the second half last game but the crap that’s being thrown at him is sheer sensationalist bollocks and those peddling it are fools – in my humble opinion obviously.

Options to replace him - wouldn't want anybody - but I think Capello, Hiddink would do a good job anywhere - in terms of the current 'broken home' scenario it would need to be somebody that keeps their head down (i thought Hiddink did that exceptionally well last year) likewise Avram Grant the year before did a remarkable job in turning it around - not saying I'd want him just he did brilliantly - think there would be options just because of who we are people would be prepared to take some shit, Gerits, Schaaf, the lad at Fiorentina aint no mug either - plenty of pro's out there who have undergone boardroom battles and survived.
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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #8650 on: October 23, 2009, 09:40:09 pm »
Benitez cannot be judged purely abstractly, you have to take into account the concreate problems that he has faced in any assessment. If I could run 100m slightly slower than my peers with a heavy rucksack on my back, any fair assessment of my ability would have to start with the rucksack on my back it can't be ignored.

In certain circumstances small factors can be incredibly significant. Injuries are not usually important in the big scheme of things to most managers. When Ferguson was a match away from the sack, if he'd of had several key players injured that game, the concreate circumstances would make this massively important. not only would they effect a game but the whole course of MUFC history.

I agree we should concentrate on Benitez's positives when defending him. Like everyone I think he makes mistakes but In the situation we are facing I will spend little time discussing those mistakes because it's not the key issue we're faced with. I think the reason we are hearing the argument, Who else? is because it forces you to consider the handicap Rafa's been operating with and In a situation where a section of good Liverpudlians are wavering on rafa, it allows you dispel, the idea that a host of world class managers are just waiting to risk their reputations operating under the constraints faced  at Liverpool.  There's no golden saviour.
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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #8651 on: October 23, 2009, 09:59:33 pm »
Hiddink

Oh fuck that. Fuck that right now.

The "Hiddink is God" brigade are nearly (but not quite) as bad as the "Mourinho is the best coach in the world" lot. Oh yeah, he was great at a Chelsea team stuffed with talent who were complaining they weren't being trained hard enough... for fuck sakes. I could do that job.

I couldn't take the unsufferable Hiddink love-in. And neither could he. Being in a job where pressure amounts to more than just qualifying for the Champions League, winning the Eredivisie or getting to a world cup is a rarity for him, and one where he has failed miserably before. Let him and his ego ("we should have beaten Milan in 2005 and would definitely have beaten Liverpool in the final" - My arse.) stay in the cushy jobs, building up reputations and then leaving before ever having to maintain them through longevity, except at PSV in the frankly pittiful Eredivise. Maybe he can have a go at managing Sweden next and using his "football alchemy" to take them to the world cup. What a miracle that would be, given this is the first tournament in years they've failed to qualify for.

Rafa is the best fit for Liverpool. It's that simple. The only alternative is Capello, but he is a hired gun. You get him for 3 seasons, he wins you then league and then he's gone... and there is no way he'd leave England right now. Mourinho is just a shit, cheque-book* equivilent of Capello, and frankly the single worst possible choice to succeed Rafa considering the two main criticisms of Rafa are the brand of football he plays and his "failure" in the transfer market. Mourinho's teams play far worse football and with an open cheque-book for the past five seasons he hasn't even mustered what would average out as a single good signing a season. Maybe it'll change this years bunch, but the hundreds of millions down the tube on SWP's, Ferreira's, Muntari's, Mancini's, Quaresma's etc make Rafa's "buy in bulk" approach look like sound fiscal logic.


It's Rafa. Whatever his rights and wrongs, he is by far the best and most obvious coach for Liverpool. It's there in the trophies he's won and in his loyalty. I'm fucked if I'm going to see this football club reduced to another notch on the bedpost for some self-loving, arrogant cockmuncher who is out to end the title drought to tart up their CV. I'll stick with the man who is doing it for the club and the people.
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Offline Vulmea

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #8652 on: October 23, 2009, 10:04:14 pm »
I don't think rafa needs the defence of our ridiculous owners - his record stands for itself  - the likes of southampton, leeds, west ham, newcastle would call our owners saints - the likes of fulham, stoke, burnley laugh at our cries of rafa having nothing to spend - it devalues the achievements of the man -

benitez has had money, he has had time but when he's had the 5th largest amount of money and we pay the fifth highest wages the expectation should be we finish 5th - which is a damn sight higher than most teams - the biggest problem with our fans and the media is the expectation level - he has over achieved massively at this club but its taken as failure because of who we are

two CL finals, the top 16 in europe every year and a 2nd place in the prem beating united and chelsea home and away - houlier achieved 2nd when chelsea weren't around when we were probably the 2nd highest payers and 2nd most expensive squad - times have changed - its a far greater achievement now

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #8653 on: October 23, 2009, 10:07:14 pm »
jl - a most excellent response but in degsy's defence IF the big man had to go capello is one of the very few that i'd back to at least do as well.  still he will retire after the england job and while hiddink is a manager who has certainly impressed when given a top drawer premiership squad i think we have the right man for the job already in place.

the end.

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #8654 on: October 23, 2009, 10:15:18 pm »
jl - a most excellent response but in degsy's defence IF the big man had to go capello is one of the very few that i'd back to at least do as well.  still he will retire after the england job and while hiddink is a manager who has certainly impressed when given a top drawer Premier League squad i think we have the right man for the job already in place.

the end.

I wasn't having a go at Degs mate (sorry if it came across that way Degs) just getting in a pre-emptive strike for the gang of backslappers that follow Hiddink around like a bad stench. His name would invariably pop up should the worst happen and only 5 months in England, in charge of a self-managing Chelsea team who were desperate to be trained harder (seriously now... the most talented squad in the league, self-motivated and wanted to be pushed further.) - it hardlly required the touch of an alchemist just to turn that around. No more than a new face and a little pandering to the larger egos. Delegation is a skill, I suppose.


I just don't buy the whole Hiddink shit. I think he is quite content to hide behind international management. He could have taken over at Chelsea in the summer, and been asked to continue his impressive work long-term, but instead he stuck it out with Russia. Russia, where he's got an immensely talented team and yet could fail to make the world cup... would that raise questions? I doubt it. The guy's reputation is a masterwork of spin. I'll give him that. He is a genius when it comes to exiting at the zenith. He's bullet-proof when it comes to critical analysis.
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Offline Vulmea

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #8655 on: October 23, 2009, 10:15:41 pm »
Oh fuck that. Fuck that right now.

The "Hiddink is God" brigade are nearly (but not quite) as bad as the "Mourinho is the best coach in the world" lot. Oh yeah, he was great at a Chelsea team stuffed with talent who were complaining they weren't being trained hard enough... for fuck sakes. I could do that job.
 
#

bit harsh on Hiddink - thought he behaved with integrity and honesty last season (despite his suspended sentence for tax evasion) -  all his club success is pretty dated but he's been around the block, can handled super ego's and looks to be steady bloke - not  a messiah but with a club in turmoil I think its probably a good thing for  someone to just keep perspective, remain calm and just get on with the basics

Agreed on Maureen - huth upfront, wait for mistakes and play on the counter - a first team clique - a media whore and a limitless ego................. 





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Offline hesbighesred

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #8656 on: October 23, 2009, 10:17:53 pm »
1) Who else/coherent arguments in support of Rafa...

I've put forward a ton of coherent arguments in support of the man on this and lots of other threads. I didn't actually think I needed to regurgitate them here. I didn't pose the question of 'is he the right man?' 'Is his time up?', I was answering it, with the sort of simplest way I know to express that he is the 'right man' with the 'right fit' - look at the alternatives. The alternatives to Houllier looked compelling even when Houllier was at his best. The alternatives to Rafa, even at his lowest ebbs, have looked shite.

It's also important because the on pitch stuff isn't in a bubble, IT IS affected by off pitch crap. Name me one club that's had sustained success with a shite board?

2)Broken Home analogy - not compelling to you maybe. OK, maybe yours is better - bad job. Are you telling me that the dad doesn't come home and take his shitty job out on the wife and kids? How does it affect the players? Well, I don't know if you've been in this situation, but if not, try to imagine:

You have worked for some time under a boss who, maybe you don't personally like him that much, but he's helped you be brilliant at your job. Under his line management, your section has gone from being no hopers to one of the most dynamic and competitive in the company. In the mean time, the board, though distant, has been performing worse and worse. Your section is doing well, but it's obvious to everyone that the way the company is run is a shambles. These people are doing so much wrong - they are taking the company down the tubes. Flushing it down the toilet. To make things worse, these incompetant clowns are undermining your good boss at every turn. They've already tried to sack him once, after he nearly (but didn't) miss ONE deadline, even though he's never missed a deadline in his time at the club, and the board had expressed their total belief in him.

Just recently, the board promised new staff to help ease your team's workload, so you could push on from nearly best to BEST. Of course, the whole office was buzzing, boss down to secretary. However, when the time came, you didn't get new staff at all. You got replacements for some good staff who left. Now, these replacements are sound - but the workload was too much before, where are the new staff FFS, the staff you were promised?

To top it off, the board have recently come out and laid the blame for the companies failings at your bosses door, the company is still going down the toilet, and all the trade papers are talking about your boss like he's the cause of all the problems - boardroom problems that have been obvious since the take-over a few years ago.

Tell me, honestly, how does this affect your work performance? It doesn't matter if you're paid £3.50 an hour or £1,000,000 a year. Something like that fucks you up, it demotivates you, it makes any set back that much harder to take, it makes you stressed, it makes you ill, it makes you go home and act like a shit to the people you love.

I use the home analogy because I have direct experience of it - I don't know the work one personally, but I know other people who do, and the effect on the person is basically the same. It doesn't get better until you leave or the board changes. Sacking the boss and replacing him doesn't make a blind bit of difference because NO manager can compensate for a shit board, just like no accounting secretary can compensate for a shit accountant.

3) Rafa wasn't 'lucky' - he was a superb and astute appointment, in my view very strongly arguably the single best decision Moores/Parry ever made. Pray, tell me how many other managers had a proven track record of winning leagues against opponents with superior finances and playing resources? Please tell me if you can see anyone who resembles Rafa working at another club now - because I can't.

4) Ferguson was a 'perfect fit'. Sure. He also had big piles of money thrown at him, and total control of the club from day one. If Rafa had spent 5 years buying £20-£30million players season on season, without having to sell, while being given to mould the club in his own image, maybe I'd be asking questions. He hasn't even had remotely close to that kind of luxury. All it took him at Valencia was a slump from the top 2 and a decent squad to start with. There's been no such slump here, no squad to start with, no investment of the kind Ferguson enjoyed.

5) If you don't realise those factors in terms of Rafa's job performance, then you shouldn't be judging Rafa's job performance. If you DO understand those factors, then if you have a 'personal tipping point' with Rafa UNTIL the boardroom situation is sorted out, then I personally think that's idiotic. Like I said, changing the line managers when the board is fucked is fiddling while roam burns. It's changing not for the sake of seeing hope of better, but changing because that's the easiest thing to change. Changing the thing that's most easily removed instead of tackling the actual problem is fucking stupidity. It's repairing a bike with a broken frame by changing the break pads. The very best you can hope for in that scenario is a still-fucked bike that stops a bit quicker.

Except in this case you're basically playing pot luck with the pads. The vast majority of pads you are likely to get will probably make the brakes WORSE, so the chances are you're frame will still be fucked, only now you can't even stop. Great.

6) Houllier - for me is a poor comparison. Firstly, because he had a relative level of financial backing and board stability that Rafa could only dream of, in comparison with his rivals. In what way would sticking with him have kept us as regular CL contenders? We struggled desperately to qualify in his last couple of seasons, and that with (given the current climate) TWO fewer realistic challengers (City and Chelsea having been added to the list).
 
7) Hiddink and Cappello. Hiddink 'would do a good job anywhere' - except the FA cup with the worlds biggest wage bill is the biggest, and indeed only trophy he's one in the best part of two decades. Capello, sure, but he's never been tested at a club without the money to compete. He's superb - but tell me, when has he ever had to work without the resources to quickly build a team in his own image? Never. It was Rafa's almost unique record in that respect which led us to hire him in the first place.

7)The only way we can hope to bridge the gap to our rivals, regardless of the board, unless we get the same or more money, the same or more wages, is to give a better manager time and control. There is no other way. Thus far, we haven't even given Rafa control - we haven't even given him a chance to see what he can do with his hands untied as of yet. Any new appointment would likely have even less control. At lest Rafa has perhaps given himself a fighting chance, we haven't even really started on what you might call his 'real' reign.

8) Luck and injuries - please, I don't mean to use these as an excuse or as a main reason, just that in my view they are a factor. Just a factor, Gerrard's court case, for example, is another factor. But enough, let's leave that because it's irrelevant - we disagree, fair enough, all good.

9) Group tipping point. That point was reached and to all intents and purposes breached with Ferguson. Thank god for them that the board had clear minds. Giving in to mob pressure, to the overwhelming weight of opinion of people who often can't even bring themselves to acknowledge the boardroom problems even as a factor is populist madness of the very worst sort. I can see now you are not suggesting we do that, and I'm glad, but my view on 'them' is 'fuck them - they know fuck all'. Honestly. The Roman People cheered as games were held in the honour of emperors who presided over a growing ruin (maybe not strictly accurate but I think the analogy is fair). Newcastle fans jeered their way to relegation (at least to an extent).

In a situation where Rafa is maybe the one clear minded decision maker at the club with a comprehensive knowledge of the game we, all of us with any power to do so, must back him to the fullest extent possible.

Still, I shall try to avoid using the 'who else' argument as much as I can - I feel I do have plenty of arguments in Rafa's favour, and perhaps, if you'd like, and if I'm in the mood I'll share a few over the next week or so that don't touch on board issues at all (though I have made them before, and many of them recently). Still, to take us back to the start of this post - I answered who else because I was asked 'Is he the man'? A direct answer to a direct question, and not through any lack of belief, or arguments in his favour that stand on their own merits.

Put absolutely simply, my other answer to 'Is he the right man', is an emphatic 'YES', because his methods, manner and playing style, to me, do suit this club superbly - and we saw a tantalising glimpse of that Valencia-at-their-best-maybe-beyond last season. That man and his methods have not changed - confidence has, and the board has dealt us another crippling blow, in my view a big enough one to explain a lot of that dip, and a lot of the apparent sudden poor quality of our players. In a more cold sense, it's also an emphatic 'YES', because I don't see anyone else who has successfully (in a big league) overcome the advantage of entrenched wealth with any degree of consistency the way Rafa managed with Valencia, and the way he has already shown us he CAN achieve here with the CL, another CL final and one of the very best (in terms of performance and points) league seasons in even our glorious history. That we fell just short of the glittering prize should not distract from the brilliance of the performace - just like Usain Bolt's incredible sprints do not diminish the brilliance of the athletes who followed him to previously unimaginable times. At least, unlike with Bolt, we got close enough for it to have been a photo finish - let's not lose heart quite yet because we're struggling in the following season. It's not like we're an old squad with an old manager - we are still young and have every reason to believe we can repeat and better that performance - most certainly so, emphatically so if we can remove the real tumour eating away at our club.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2009, 10:25:47 pm by hesbighesred »
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Offline Juan Loco

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #8657 on: October 23, 2009, 10:28:47 pm »
Capello, sure, but he's never been tested at a club without the money to compete. He's superb - but tell me, when has he ever had to work without the resources to quickly build a team in his own image?

AS Roma.

Capello's record stands up under just about any sort of scrutiny. He hasn't done as well as he should have in Europe, but then his one Champions League win is just about the best footballing performance of all time. If you're going to win just the one European Cup you might as well do it taking apart the Barca 'dream team'.

Capello's done just about everything. He's done it under the pressure of huge clubs, he's done it in different countries, he's done it at the same club on seperate occasions (never go back?) and he's done it at a lesser club, with lesser resources, at a team with zero winning mentality. Oh, and he looks dangerously close to doing it at international level as well.

Maybe at 63 Rafa'll have the same sort of record, but it's an awful lot to live up to.

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #8658 on: October 23, 2009, 10:50:38 pm »
Vulmea cracking post about Benitez's record. However I don't think that the 'ridiculous owners' is  a defence of Rafa, I agree his record stands for itself, It's that he has achieved so much despite the real handicap of the last two seasons and that  has to be factored in for the true picture.
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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #8659 on: October 23, 2009, 10:56:00 pm »
Its great that you back Rafa so much HBHR and you will probably find that the majority of fans back him also. I certainly do and although Rafa may have made some mistakes, overall he has done well and there is no one else I would like to lead this Liverpool team for the next few years.

But I don't think we can just brush aside other managers and say there is no one, anywhere, that would not do well here. I think the likes of Capello and Hiddink would do well here because their record stands up as such. Maybe we would get an unknown who would do well (like that Fiorentina manager who everyone rates). Thats not me saying that Rafa should go and others would do better, thats just me saying that if the worst happened, then I couldn't just dismiss every other manager in world football.

Of course, it depends on who is choosing the manager and at the moment, we don't want the current regime choosing anything except the sale of the club. But thats a different point.

As it is, Rafa is our manager and thats more than fine for me. My gripes lie more at the players door than Rafa's and although the board issues have had a major say, I still think this group of players should be doing much better than they are.

Also, I would suggest that nobody listens to 606 at 7pm on a Friday evening. I was going to a friends house with a group of other friends and I browsed over to 606 (which of course, went down great in a car full of girls) and Colin Murray was on in a bar in Hull, with Pat Nevin, some Arsenal tosser and a place full of twats. I am not one who gets too wound up by the media but my god, there was some vicious bile being spewed out there and Colin Murray did his best to stem the anti-Rafa flow.

Even when he tried to change the subject, the twatty panelists would make force him to talk about Liverpool again. Everything was spewed out, from his signings to us being 2 man teams, to why we sold Crouch and Alonso as well as others. They spouted out shit of how Chelsea could survive easily without their 2 best players, without even the mere mention that last season Essien was missing and Dropba basically couldn't be arsed for half a season and they came 3rd. We had Torres and Gerrard for 12/13 league games together and we came 2nd.

CM did try to point out this fact and the fact that these players that Rafa sold actually wanted to leave, but they were not having it.

Ill say, they were lucky I wasn't there. I would have shouted out so much hate towards the panel that it would have made the hate directed at Racist Fuckwit  on Question Time seem like the comical hate used in a pantomime.

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Offline Vulmea

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #8660 on: October 23, 2009, 10:56:14 pm »
Perhaps I've been a little vague

You can find faults with every manager with Capello you would have to question his age - does he have another club job left in him? with Hiddink his silverware, with Van gaal his ego, with Mourinho his dna etc

If Rafa did go then we'd need stability I think the seasoned old pro's who've seen it all would do that - whether it be Capello, Hiddink, whoever - because it wouldn't just be rafa the whole club would be in melt down, backroom staff, tea lady, players, fans so in terms of who else is there I think there would be many candidates who could come in and 'do a job' - however it would only be and could only be 'a job' - whilst we have our current owners to think anything else possible I was assuming everybody thought stupid, We are talking avoiding disaster, staying in the top half of the table, making a decent fist of it etc.

If the question is who could come in and win us the title with our current set up -the answer is nobody.
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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #8661 on: October 24, 2009, 12:00:54 am »
Ill say, they were lucky I wasn't there. I would have shouted out so much hate towards the panel that it would have made the hate directed at Racist Fuckwit  on Question Time seem like the comical hate used in a pantomime.

;D

Tell me about it, listening to phone-ins is not good for the old blood pressure.
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Offline hesbighesred

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #8662 on: October 24, 2009, 12:09:02 am »
Great posts Vulmea, JL and 92A.

Vulmea for the spot on, concise summary, just on their own considerable terms, of his impressive achievements. That last post is excellent as well - I don't mean there aren't managers out there capable of at least keeping us up there, but I totally agree that keeping us achieving what Rafa is already doing is about the best we could hope for - that's exactly what I mean. Come in and do better than Rafa under the present set up, without entering into the lands of, basically, a lottery win? No-one - such a manager would be standing out among his peers already, and I can't really see one like that about.

JL for saying much of what I wanted to, or at least much of what I think, except more concisely and with more skill than I am able to manage on all bar the rarest occasions.

92A for that rucksack analogy - that's exactly what I took about 7 billion words to express about the owners, you did it in a sentence. Rafa's achievements, as Vulmea says, are impressive looked at in isolation. Considering he's achieved that, as you say, in a race where he's the only one carrying weight makes those acheivements all the more impressive, in my view.

Killer_Heels, that's a nice post too, agree with much of it. Don't mean to say no-one could do 'a job', as it were, but I think carrying on what Rafa is already doing would already be a superb effort, unless the board changes. Funny thing about what you're saying though - I honestly think sound, intelligent fans can see through that shit, if they talk face to face. Was chatting to my chelsea neighbor last night, he came out with the general cliches, I returned with sensible arguments:

He's made mistakes - Who hasn't?
He needs to be clever like Wenger - He's trying, look at Insua etc, but that shit takes time...
He's had some money to spend - yeah, but not compared to your lot, and who else has this crap from the board?

In the end, he agreed, his gooner mate enthusiastically agreed, both were like 'he's a really good manager', and we all had a right good go at Man Utd and the bent league and shite refs etc etc. It was great. However, the presenters on these shows stoke it up, and so few put the reasonable counter arguments. I've heard DJ spoony on the TIA podcast a couple of times, and he can't put a case like, say, JL or you can, but he could tackle that kind of rubbish with ease. With other managers on TV etc, there's usually an attacker and a defender, with Rafa there just never seems to be the balance, it's infuriating.

I do disagree with you on Hiddink though, as ever, JL puts it in his style, and is harsher than I'd usually be, but honestly, I think everything he's said is spot on. You say his record stands up to scrutiny, but JL is bang on - it doesn't, it really, really doesn't. As I said, that FA cup, with that squad, is about the only thing he's ever won outside of Holland. You have to go back to PSV for his 'achievements' - and it was only really one indisputable proper biggie - the CL in 1988.

I also stand corrected on Capello, JL, I was always under the impression that Roma gave him plenty to spend for that season, though of course you're right about the inherited mentality, but I'm struggling to find figures, so I'll take your word that he was underfunded. I guess even if he splashed out that season, no doubt Roma in general were poorly funded compared to Juve, AC and Inter, I would think, so point taken. However, I do agree about Capello's working method too, he's never really built a club over time, but is one who will do as you describe. If the unthinkable (for me) happened, I would be happy with him - but it would be a pipe dream anyway. I doubt he'd work under these conditions, would require big money, and England is most likely his last job, or at least he's there for the forseeable. Plus, England could give him the ace high straight flush in spades of management with the World Cup, we can't offer anything that he hasn't already pretty much achieved - assuming he'd fancy his chances of acheiving it.

That's two names, and though I despise him I'd add Mourinho, completely despicable and I wouldn't want him here for a second, but I think he'd be capable of 'doing a job', quite possibly even without the money. Realistically, if the worst happened, I'd honestly be hoping for Ramos or Martinez, honestly, not because I rate them as spectacular managers, but because I think they'd offer us continuity and leave in place/maybe even build on Rafa's foundations in terms of the youth etc, something I would trust Hiddink, Capello and Mourinho to hopefully pretty much ignore and leave to someone like Kenny who would carry on what I see as the good work he's doing.

Indeed, for a positive look at that side of things it's well worth looking through the post history of Stanfo (spelled like that if you search for it) - he has a kid in the academy and was seriously worried when all the changes and sackings happened, but he's been really impressed since.

Anyway, that was an aside, that's about it for me - but I said I'd stick clear from that question from now so I'll stop.

Great posts all round anyway, and that absolutely includes you Redmark. I do let my passion, I suppose, and hence verbal diorrhea take over sometimes (all the time? ;) ) so there's nothing personal there - as I say I like your posts plenty, shit, as I do everyone's on this thread, even those I habitually disagree with. That's why we all like it here at the end of the day.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2009, 12:15:57 am by hesbighesred »
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Offline abhred

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #8663 on: October 24, 2009, 05:58:22 am »
I want Rafa to stay, but there are a few managers out there, who I'd think could do the job. Spalleti quit, but remember, he was within 30 minutes of winning the Serie A with 1/10th of Inter's financial backing, all the while playing the best football in Europe.

Prandelli again, world class. You could just the amount of respect Rafa had for him, and he's a fantastic coach.

There are managers out there. Obviously, it would be so much easier that we start are winning streak with United tomorrow, with Aquilani back, and go onto to win the double. But there is a chance we might stay in this rut, and if it's for a long time, then there might be the need to change the management.
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Offline nocturnalvin

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #8664 on: October 24, 2009, 07:19:05 am »
we read this time and again here, but what a fantastic thread. I am glad i opened the can of worms, or so i thought. I live in a different part of the world, and have lesser access to opinions of learned fans, but it is reassuring to know that Rafa has the backing of almost everyone in this thread.

I am with Juan on the subject of Hiddink. Chelsea still is Mourinho's Chelsea. Nothing has changed, and there is nothing drastic needed to get them going. Hiddink didnt have to do much, Scolari screwed up and still got them pretty close during his tenure. Grant was even closer, and there was nothing to suggest that he was ever a good coach. I think any decent bloke could have done more than decent at Chelsea.

I quite like Ahbred's mention of Spalleti, altho a little too far fetched on the "best football in Europe" part. THey were good to watch, with an improvised setup that almost has no strikers and made the best of Totti and De Rossi.

Another one i like is Pelligrini, but he has sold his sold his soul to the devil at Real. I thought he was fantastic with even lesser resources, but gave a good go at the La Liga playing some nice football and getting the best out of "rejects" from the other clubs.

I fear though. I fear if we continue to blip along the way, the noise from within our fans may get louder, and the bandwagon gets loud enough for the yanks to think that the popular thing to do is to get rid of Rafa. I fear that even with new owners, they may get too smart, and choose glamour in appointing some "exotic" name to replace him.


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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #8665 on: October 24, 2009, 10:18:27 am »
Quote
The only alternative is Capello, but he is a hired gun.

Quote
If Rafa did go then we'd need stability I think the seasoned old pro's who've seen it all would do that - whether it be Capello, Hiddink, whoever - because it wouldn't just be rafa the whole club would be in melt down

Let us say we could attract another top-class manager in the manner of Capello or whoever (and with the boardroom situation I think that is hugely doubtful) - we are expecting this individual to stick around for a few years to rebuild. (Or are we expecting instant gratification, here; what is in our 'collective' mind - are we really so Sky-washed that we react to adversity with a jerking knee and think later?) Anyway, the loyalty shown to us by a number of foreign imports - Hyppia, most notably - is the exception rather than the rule. If this mythical manager is successful he will be poached by richer clubs within a season or two. The fit of Benitez and his family to Merseyside (Montse was reduced to tears by the loss on Tuesday, I read) is an oddity and should be notched down in his 'pro' column, rather than derided as by that odious columnist Des Kelly in the Daily Fail today.

Offline the 92A

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #8666 on: October 24, 2009, 11:25:12 am »
Some of the names mentioned make me realise My lack of pedigree when it comes to Italian football and why I love this thread. I'm sure there are some great rising stars that could do a great job,. I know there are wise old heads who could also replace Rafa. No one is unreplacable. After shankly went I was in tears, who'd of thought Wise old Bob could do so well. That was a clever appointment.  Apart from losing Benitez who I genuinely believe to be the best fit. my Greatest fear is the appointment is in the gift of these two clowns, not us. It's too horrible to contemplate. Anyone want to start a list of horrors? Sven maybe.
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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #8667 on: October 24, 2009, 11:50:35 am »
The main criticisms of Rafa appear to be he’s had enough time, he’s wasted all the money, he can’t build a squad, he can’t motivate players, he’s tactically inept.

I think you've set up a series of straw men there. Or, at the very least, you've taken what the crassest Sky Sports pundit says about us and used that as the standard by which to judge Rafa. But these aren't the things that worry most Liverpool supporters. It's possible to have reservations about Rafa's management style and coaching without having to sign up for the whole MTM package.

What's more Sky Sports, for reasons of misplaced English patriotism I guess, never identifies one of the more obvious problems we have - which is Carragher's sacrosanct status as leader of our defence.
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Offline Degs

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #8668 on: October 24, 2009, 12:08:45 pm »
Onto this Carragher point he is playing poorly but he's not playing as badly as Skrtel is. You just notice it more because Carragher's usual form is twice what it is now.
I think Rafa's right to keep playing Carra because the alternatives are still worse than how he's playing now.

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #8669 on: October 24, 2009, 12:14:44 pm »
Onto this Carragher point he is playing poorly but he's not playing as badly as Skrtel is. You just notice it more because Carragher's usual form is twice what it is now.
I think Rafa's right to keep playing Carra because the alternatives are still worse than how he's playing now.

Indeed. I have been a big fan of Skrtel but he has been even worse than Carragher. His form has dipped to coincide with Carragher's decline and that is disappointing because you would like to think that, in a club like ours, other players would step up in our hour of need, in the way Johnson has done, Kuyt did last season and Benayoun did this and last season.

People want to see Skrtel and Agger but I don't see how Skrtel can put a claim to be ahead of Carragher at the moment.

Hopefully the links with Shawcross are true and somehow a miracle happens that we do have some money in January, because he is exactly what we need at the moment.

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #8670 on: October 24, 2009, 12:32:00 pm »
Hopefully the links with Shawcross are true and somehow a miracle happens that we do have some money in January, because he is exactly what we need at the moment.

Yeh. He'd compliment Agger perfectly.

Skrtel's last few months have been as bad as his game against Havant.
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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #8671 on: October 24, 2009, 12:58:04 pm »
I think you've set up a series of straw men there. Or, at the very least, you've taken what the crassest Sky Sports pundit says about us and used that as the standard by which to judge Rafa. But these aren't the things that worry most Liverpool supporters. It's possible to have reservations about Rafa's management style and coaching without having to sign up for the whole MTM package.

What's more Sky Sports, for reasons of misplaced English patriotism I guess, never identifies one of the more obvious problems we have - which is Carragher's sacrosanct status as leader of our defence.


I dont think so, I think I've just replayed what the current 'popular' opinions appear to be that are voiced on phone ins, in the media, on internet forums, by part time fans who dont have the time to actually think - the myths if you like

I've never said Benitez is perfect, far from it I've highlighted some of my doubts but no manager is perfect.

On Carragher the lad started his career and was pilloried , he was an average fullback, a poor midfielder, an unconvincing centre half but he improved, for several years he has been a rock in our defence - but for me somebody always playing at his maximum or maybe even above it - it was inevitable that there would be a dip - unlike others he doesn't have height to dig him out of a hole, or pace to recover from an error - he relies on positioning, reading the game, guts and determination - his problem currently is thinking too much and trying too hard - he has and will probably always will be a worrier and currently its getting to him

In days gone by we would get behind a player who gives his all , try to  boost his confidence, recapture his form - now we just have a go and then exagerate any failings how the hell is that supposed to help - he played in the team that came second last year he's 31 not 41. His passion and commitment count for more with me than an extra yard of pace or 2 inches in height and if that means he gets the nod over somebody quicker or stronger so be it.  I don't think thats an issue with rafa's 'management ability' just that he gives more weight to leadership and experience than form. It would not suprise me that as soon as Carra plays well he's rested by Rafa.

The only real problem we have over last year is a lack of confidence - amongst our fans and our players the rest is piss and wind.




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Offline hesbighesred

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #8672 on: October 24, 2009, 01:27:07 pm »
... odious columnist Des Kelly in the Daily Fail today.
Revolting piece that, isn't it?

It's almost like a cheap revenge for Rafa giving out a big 'exclusive' free. I don't believe that Kelly believes what he's written there - it's a point by point checklist of every media cliche and every player who seems to get people into a spluttering froth.

Whatever his motivations for writing it, it's one of the most pure hatchet jobs I think I've ever seen - the only purpose of that article is to press people's 'anger' buttons when it comes to Rafa, that's all it's doing. Kind of like an article on Marty Mcfly repeatedly calling him a chicken.
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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #8673 on: October 24, 2009, 04:29:38 pm »
Anyway, that was an aside, that's about it for me - but I said I'd stick clear from that question from now so I'll stop.

Great posts all round anyway, and that absolutely includes you Redmark. I do let my passion, I suppose, and hence verbal diorrhea take over sometimes (all the time? ;) ) so there's nothing personal there - as I say I like your posts plenty, shit, as I do everyone's on this thread, even those I habitually disagree with. That's why we all like it here at the end of the day.

Agreed, and the feeling is mutual. I don't think we actually fundamentally disagree on Rafa's qualities, or the potential nightmare that awaits if somehow we do lose him.

I like 92A's rucksack analogy too. It's perfectly reasonable. But football, and the Premier League in particular, is not perfectly reasonable. It's arguable that it ever was; certainly Clough would have been carrying a rucksack in comparison to Paisley, but the difference would be that that was understood by both his employers and the media. That has indeed changed; it's unfair, it's frustrating and I don't deny that many in the media have taken a deep dislike to Rafa that poisons 'debate'.

Yet we (match going supporters, airmchair fans of widely varying intensity and knowledge, the team, the manager and - unfortunately - the owners) have to exist in this reality, not that of the 70s and 80s. The media is what it is. The structure of the PL, the Sky TV money, the critical importance of CL football, unfit owners - not just ours - all combine to make modern football what it is: marketable and exciting, but impatient and unforgiving. Of course Rafa is carrying a sizeable rucksack. But arguably Wenger's is only a little lighter (and he's won nothing recently, point very much agreed). What is David Moyes carrying on his back, or Steve Bruce? Granted expectations are lower and no one is ridiculing them as they do with Rafa.

But this is the situation we have to live with. We are, unfortunately with such pressure but unapologetically, a big club. We demand good football and success. We do have a handful of top class players and, mostly, a very good supporting cast. Rafa and the players have delivered, broadly, year on year improvement. Our run last season was as good - in terms of both results and performance - as we've seen in many years. Perhaps it was overachievement, to an extent.

I haven't read the book Tomkins is currently raving about, but intend to. However, it is not quite accurate to say that as City have now surpassed us in wages, our natural statistical position is 5th. As many on this thread have long argued, it has taken Rafa years to build a squad, to educate the players in the system he wants to play, for us to (harking back to the original thread concept) approach Level 3. It is disingenuous for us then to suggest that City's money instantly raises their realistic position above ours; Hughes can splash the cash on quality players (though arguably none are really top drawer in terms of ability allied to mentality) but still needs time to mould the team and for the players to gel. Arguably even Arsenal - through choice, to a large degree - have been in a transitional phase and chosen to spend a large proportion of their wage bill on promising youngsters rather than established players in search of immediate success. If we are to use our newly demoted position in the wage league to 5th as an excuse/reason, it's not this season. Maybe next, maybe not for a couple of years yet. But not yet.

(I'd also question - not knowing the answer - whether those wage bills being used are quite upto date: we have given new contracts to a fair number of our best players this summer, almost certainly lifting our wage bill a fair bit in the process).

Of course we can't compete financially with Chelsea or United, nor have we done throughout (and prior to) Rafa's tenure. But we have competed, increasingly, on the field. I don't doubt that that is partly overachievement - down to Rafa and the players. I said at the beginning of the season that my main concern was that last season might have been a peak for players like Kuyt and Benayoun, rather than a plateau we can automatically expect to continue. We'll see. In contrast to many it seems, I think Benayoun for instance has been as wasteful and ineffective this season as occasionally brilliant and incisive. Kuyt, rather more universally agreed, has been pretty poor. But we have also been let down in too many other areas; players who are undoubtedly at or still to reach their peak, better than they are showing, or players who (by virtue of age and development) we really should still be seeing more significant improvements from (yes, Lucas comes to mind).

Of course then, all of this comes back to why are we underperforming this season. It isn't suddenly that City have overtaken us in the wages league. While the ownership situation is horrible, I sincerely don't believe it has a major impact on the players. The particular point that might have done is the sale of Alonso and clear lack of investment over and above funds raised by that sale. I can see that pissing off senior playing figures - but I'll come back to that in a moment*. Other than that however, I don't think stories of owners seeking further investment, or discontent from the fans, has much impact. It certainly didn't late last season - when all of the same issues were there, when there was speculation about the RBS loan, and formal doubts was raised about our ability to continue as a 'going concern'.

As already discussed, other than the ownership issues I think some of the reasons being discussed are, if not red herrings, then just the normal cut and thrust of football at any club not based in Salford. The worst of the injuries came after, not before or causing, the slump. Refereeing decisions - meh. Talk to fans of any club outside the top four and see what they think of poor refereeing decisions. They happen. We've benefited from plenty in our time.

*Anyway, without rehashing those points, back to my point about the rucksack analogy and it's reasonableness, and the possible impact of the loss of Alonso without investment.

Yeah, it's shit. We should have better owners, investing more money, allowing a net spend. We should have had Aquilani, Johnson and another £20m to spend - say, Shawcross or Turner instead of Kyrgiakos, plus perhaps a creative player; or a backup striker and a versatile midfielder. Or some other combination. But we didn't. We don't have better owners. The media is what it is, the expectation is what it is. Perhaps we did overachieve last season - and overachievement is a dangerous thing, because if you follow it with just 'achievement', you've regressed. All utterly unfair, regrettable and unreasonable. But that's life, or certainly football.

We have to deal with the situation as it is. The rucksack can be borne in mind by thoughtful fans, but Richard Keys, Paul Merson, Charlie Nicholas, James Lawton and a good number of the more 'casual' airmchair fans won't spot it, much less make allowances for it. In this situation, it is down to management to make the best of it. Again, unfair, but unavoidable. Rafa has to overcome whatever disappointment the squad may feel at under-investment. He has to generate team spirit and belief (letting confidence build itself on results). Dare I say it, Mourinho or Ferguson may - only may - have used any discontent with the situation as a positive; they're all out to get us, let's prove them wrong, bunker mentality. That's not to say they're better managers than Rafa, far from it. They are different personalities. But it certainly is Rafa's job to develop team spirit and belief; to shield the players from negativity in the boardroom or the media.

It's also his job - in such a pressure cooker situation - to avoid mistakes. Back on my/your 'bad job/boss' analogy - yeah, I've had more of those than I care to remember. Sometimes I've sulked with the unfairness of it all, and left, or indeed been sacked (unfairly in my opinion, of course) a couple of times. Or I've knuckled down to ensure that, despite the unfairness of the situation, no questions can be asked of my performance. Rafa has the same choices. He could walk, and explain why. He could end up being sacked, and explain why it was unfair. Or he could work harder to make sure no excuse is given to the owners; no weakness exposed to the baying dogs of the media. I'm sure he is doing that, of course - working harder than ever (bar 4 hour lunches with Tomkins :)).

But working harder won't help him if it's not effective. Mistakes will be highlighted, picked on and exaggerated. Certainly the portion of the crowd who booed the substitution of Benayoun have done him no favours. But clearly, neither are the players, on the whole. Neither did he himself, claiming Benayoun looked tired, while Ngog was virtually out on his feet having run himself ragged, mostly in vain. Of course it's unfair, but every little error - or gamble that goes wrong (see Aquilani, or playing Aurelio in central midfield in Florence, etc) - is going to be pilloried. Every beachball will be gleefully treated by the media as a joke. When Bellamy scores for City, or Crouch for Spurs, idiot pundits will blame Rafa for letting him go, as if he was replaced by Voronin/Ngog rather than Torres.

These things come with the job. Yes, he's carrying a rucksack. Yes, it's even a little bigger because it's Liverpool, who many (though by no means all) in the media take delight in seeing struggle. Yes, he has fans with high expectations and owners with low commitment. But he has to stop these things - or whatever else is happening in the background, some speculated on already - affecting the players. If Mascherano or any other player is causing discontent, drop him. Drop him all the way to Prenton Park. If a senior figure isn't cutting it, bench him. If he thinks a fearless youngster might be the answer, throw him in.

The point is that Rafa is the manager and it's all down to him, ultimately if unfairly. As pointed out (in one of Tomkins pieces, or in this thread?), Rafa's perceived stubbornness is perhaps just a fairly normal feature of every good manager: having the courage of one's convictions. Rafa needs to display that now and, crucially, be prepared to be judged on it. If he thinks Lucas, Voronin and Ngog are the answer (or even Plessis, Pacheco and Amoo, etc), go for it and ride the storm and the boos. But if it doesn't work, expect and accept the flack, regardless of the fairness of it all.

We're in stormy waters and Rafa has to sink or swim; even with the weight of the rucksack on his back.

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Offline nocturnalvin

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #8674 on: October 24, 2009, 07:34:57 pm »
Skrtel's last few months have been as bad as his game against Havant.

C'mon, thats stretching it too far. That Havant performance was a total nightmare, one of the worst i have ever witnessed from a Liverpool player. Its bad but surely it ain't that bad.

Offline Vulmea

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #8675 on: October 24, 2009, 08:23:19 pm »

Yet we (match going supporters, airmchair fans of widely varying intensity and knowledge, the team, the manager and - unfortunately - the owners) have to exist in this reality, not that of the 70s and 80s. The media is what it is.

I'd also question - not knowing the answer - whether those wage bills being used are quite upto date: we have given new contracts to a fair number of our best players this summer, almost certainly lifting our wage bill a fair bit in the process.

Of course we can't compete financially with Chelsea or United, nor have we done throughout (and prior to) Rafa's tenure. But we have competed, increasingly, on the field. I don't doubt that that is partly overachievement - down to Rafa and the players. I said at the beginning of the season that my main concern was that last season might have been a peak for players like Kuyt and Benayoun, rather than a plateau we can automatically expect to continue.

Rafa has to overcome whatever disappointment the squad may feel at under-investment. He has to generate team spirit and belief (letting confidence build itself on results). Dare I say it, Mourinho or Ferguson may - only may - have used any discontent with the situation as a positive; they're all out to get us, let's prove them wrong, bunker mentality. That's not to say they're better managers than Rafa, far from it. They are different personalities. But it certainly is Rafa's job to develop team spirit and belief; to shield the players from negativity in the boardroom or the media.

It's also his job - in such a pressure cooker situation - to avoid mistakes.

The point is that Rafa is the manager and it's all down to him, ultimately if unfairly.

We're in stormy waters and Rafa has to sink or swim; even with the weight of the rucksack on his back.

Struggled to get to grips with the argument being made - because the  media and half arsed fans can't think nobody else should or we are obliged to expect what they expect? Mkaes no sense to me.

City have spent an awful lot this year but they've invested heavily for several seasons back to the Eriksson era and it also needs to be factored in that they've had a ton of youth players come through - more than half the first team has already had a season under Hughes - Rafa clearly has  the edge in time but Hughes has recovered a lot of that time by having an unlimited budget - he hasn't needed to waste three years trade Josemi, Kromkamp and Arbeloa in order to get to Johnson.

If you are questioning the wage bills then I suspect you dont fully appreciate the gap that exists between Liverpool and those above them. I think it was five players who had increased contracts this summer and I doubt any would have added more than a million a year - that would cut the gap to Arsenal in half. In terms of current squad value Liverpool's squad cost £145m City's has cost £245m,, 20 million more than Chelsea's. Nobody is expecting City to win the title this season yet Rafa is accused of spending 228 million in 6 years and he is expected to have won it. Spurs squad cost £40 million more than ours - there is no doubt that Benitez has massively overachieved the problem is the media and uneducated fans expect too much - the answer isn't to simply go with the herd its to educate and support.

Don't get the management responsibility bit either - yes the manager carries the can but whats his remit - we've been told before the minimum acceptable is 4th - he's achieved and overachieved what his bosses expect of him every year - Could somebody have come in and achieved more, possibly. Would they have been fully appreciated for it I doubt it.

Its not his job 'not to make mistakes' - everybody makes mistakes including NASA - its his job to do the best he can and minimise the impact of any mistakes he or his team do make.

Not sure the owner's ruck sack is the issue here - its much more about those around him prodding him with sticks and loading the rucksack with their own bricks of expectation.

We are asking Benitez to win the title against the odds and then judging him as though he's the favourite -



 
The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate, contrived and dishonest — but the myth — persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.

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Offline redmark

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #8676 on: October 25, 2009, 01:31:58 am »
Struggled to get to grips with the argument being made - because the  media and half arsed fans can't think nobody else should or we are obliged to expect what they expect? Mkaes no sense to me.

Don't get the management responsibility bit either - yes the manager carries the can but whats his remit - we've been told before the minimum acceptable is 4th - he's achieved and overachieved what his bosses expect of him every year - Could somebody have come in and achieved more, possibly. Would they have been fully appreciated for it I doubt it.

Its not his job 'not to make mistakes' - everybody makes mistakes including NASA - its his job to do the best he can and minimise the impact of any mistakes he or his team do make.

Not sure the owner's ruck sack is the issue here - its much more about those around him prodding him with sticks and loading the rucksack with their own bricks of expectation.

We are asking Benitez to win the title against the odds and then judging him as though he's the favourite -

Eh? I either don't understand the first sentence, or don't understand how you got that from my post.

I'm not judging Rafa as though we were 'favourites', I'm not ignoring the money spent by City, Spurs etc, I'm not saying he isn't allowed to make a mistake. What I'm saying is that some of the more analytical and thoughtful posters on here are perhaps losing sight of how little our owners know about football and who they're likely to listen to. It's not you, me, JL, HBHR, Abhred, Yorky, 92A or any other contributor to this thread. It is pundits and ex-players like Lawrenson, football journalists as a 'bloc', the vocal body of fans who populate the airwaves of 606 and You're On Sky Sports - and ultimately, those inside the ground: who on Tuesday began to show some dissent.

Call me a pessimist, but I think Rafa's future is rather more precarious than it seems many on here do. A win today will hopefully sweep that aside and set us on a run of better form; but a bad defeat could be very, very damaging for Rafa and the club. Consequently I think he's in a position where he can't afford any mistakes at the moment. I think I used the words "unfair" enough times in my previous post to make it clear that I don't think he should be under such pressure. But I think he is.
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Offline carl2782

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #8677 on: October 25, 2009, 03:42:20 am »
Time for a first post I think, I have been reading these forums (especially the level 3 thread) for a few years now and I think with the current situation these pages are crying out for a fresh view.

I understand that this is an internet forum, and there are many on here who troll through others' posts looking for the smallest statistical or grammatical mistake by someone else to jump on. For that reason, I think we rarely see in these pages a view that is unswayed by a need not to contradict one's previous posts, for fear of being called out by one of your RAWK rivals.

Can I just stick my own neck out by putting forward the notion that in the Benítez management debate, basically everyone posting here is right, and those in power in our club at the moment know that? I have very much enjoyed reading the posts of HBHR, Vulmea, Juan Loco, Degs, KH, and Redmark in particular on here and each and every argument makes sense in its own regard, even those pointing out Rafa's recent tactical mistakes and calling for the appointment of someone such as Mourinho or Hiddink, if we could ever tempt either of them to take it on.

Sure, much of the blame for our recent downturn should lie with Rafa and his and the team's failure to adjust to the new playing style we need without Xabi Alonso and with the addition of attacking fullbacks, but can we for once look into the past beyond the last two months, and the future beyond the next week, and appreciate the work that Rafa has done for the youth development system at the club, and acknowledge the difference that his work there is going to make for us in the increasingly near future? Can those calling for Rafa's head look not only at the successful and failed transfers, but also at the backroom staff he has brought in, and at the players those backroom staff are beginning only now to bring through to our reserve team and the fringes of the first team? Do you believe that King Kenny and Sammy Lee would be working under someone they didn't believe was doing the best thing for the long-term future of our club?

Like many others here, I truly believed we would win the league this year until Xabi left. I still think we can, but if we do it will be playing completely differently to how we played last year. Belief is a word that has been used alot recently in this thread and it has to start with us and go to the players from there. Regardless of how effective Aquilani is on the pitch immediately, I think he may be the catalyst to bring that little bit of belief that is missing into the minds of the fans and players in the short term. It reminds me alot of waiting for Riera to play last season, and I think the expectations of the fans were a huge part in inspiring him to that performance at Anfield against the scummers and kickstarting our season.

Let's get off the Rafa out debate on here and back to discussing the team's formations and tactics, because we can't guess either and I hope we never will because when we can maybe we really do need a new manager!

Offline Degs

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #8678 on: October 25, 2009, 09:14:45 am »
Time for a first post I think, I have been reading these forums (especially the level 3 thread) for a few years now and I think with the current situation these pages are crying out for a fresh view.

I understand that this is an internet forum, and there are many on here who troll through others' posts looking for the smallest statistical or grammatical mistake by someone else to jump on. For that reason, I think we rarely see in these pages a view that is unswayed by a need not to contradict one's previous posts, for fear of being called out by one of your RAWK rivals.

Can I just stick my own neck out by putting forward the notion that in the Benítez management debate, basically everyone posting here is right, and those in power in our club at the moment know that? I have very much enjoyed reading the posts of HBHR, Vulmea, Juan Loco, Degs, KH, and Redmark in particular on here and each and every argument makes sense in its own regard, even those pointing out Rafa's recent tactical mistakes and calling for the appointment of someone such as Mourinho or Hiddink, if we could ever tempt either of them to take it on.

Sure, much of the blame for our recent downturn should lie with Rafa and his and the team's failure to adjust to the new playing style we need without Xabi Alonso and with the addition of attacking fullbacks, but can we for once look into the past beyond the last two months, and the future beyond the next week, and appreciate the work that Rafa has done for the youth development system at the club, and acknowledge the difference that his work there is going to make for us in the increasingly near future? Can those calling for Rafa's head look not only at the successful and failed transfers, but also at the backroom staff he has brought in, and at the players those backroom staff are beginning only now to bring through to our reserve team and the fringes of the first team? Do you believe that King Kenny and Sammy Lee would be working under someone they didn't believe was doing the best thing for the long-term future of our club?

Like many others here, I truly believed we would win the league this year until Xabi left. I still think we can, but if we do it will be playing completely differently to how we played last year. Belief is a word that has been used alot recently in this thread and it has to start with us and go to the players from there. Regardless of how effective Aquilani is on the pitch immediately, I think he may be the catalyst to bring that little bit of belief that is missing into the minds of the fans and players in the short term. It reminds me alot of waiting for Riera to play last season, and I think the expectations of the fans were a huge part in inspiring him to that performance at Anfield against the scummers and kickstarting our season.

Let's get off the Rafa out debate on here and back to discussing the team's formations and tactics, because we can't guess either and I hope we never will because when we can maybe we really do need a new manager!

I don't think any of us actually want Rafa out he's the man with a plan.  I think the argument is that should he leave would we be up shit creek unable to attract quality players or a decent manager?
Over the last few pages I think it's been put to bed that we're now handcuffed to Rafa and should he leave we'd fall to pieces.  There are plenty of excellent managers on the merry go round (my preference would be Mancini) so if Rafa doe go we're not running into the streets like middle eastern women wailing and moaning that it's all over.

On to the point of formation I'd still love to see Masch given the job to simply sweep up and just ahead and either side of him Aquilani and Gerrard given licence to get free.  As we play now we're not level 3.  We don't have all our players attacking and all our players defending.  We're caught out iwith pace off the ball and left exposed with just Carra and Skrtel at the back and on the ball our players are too slow and not skilful enough to get forward quickly, our off the ball movement is akin to subbuteo players and by the time the ball is in the box it's just the usual suspects in there...eventually.  It was why I was made up with Kelly, he missed the ball but the fact he was 2 yards out form the goalmouth when we scored had me delighted, he's got a future here...well until they teach him that he's not allowed to go that far forward.

Offline redmark

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #8679 on: October 25, 2009, 10:20:16 am »
Let's get off the Rafa out debate on here and back to discussing the team's formations and tactics, because we can't guess either and I hope we never will because when we can maybe we really do need a new manager!

Welcome to the sanctuary :).

As Degs says, the likely and most obviously encouraging system would seem to be a switch from a 2-1 in the centre to a 1-2, with Gerrard and Aquilani both given a little license to roam and support the attack. I think this will be beneficial for several reasons, as discussed by Degs and previously. But another one struck me in the Chelsea game which I've not mentioned out loud since then (whether fear of ridicule on the main board, or fear of it actually being true): Gerrard hasn't looked quite right this season - lacking a bit of form perhaps (he often starts slowly), or fitness, or focus after his court case, or a little unhappiness at the departure of Alonso (again on Sunday Supplement today, apparently - from the worst possible source - he 'begged' Rafa not to sell Alonso). But what struck me for the very first time in the Chelsea game, no doubt exaggerated by the juxtaposition against someone like Essien - he looked old. Not past it ancient, but perhaps the first glimpse of Gerrard without the driving athleticism.

Now whether that's jumping the gun or not - and we'll certainly see many more bursts of athleticism to come - it's something that's inevitable and probably in Rafa's mind too, over the longer term. Where does Gerrard fit over the next few years? It often used to be said that he'd finish at CB, which I've never really followed. Perhaps as a Lothar Mattheus if we were playing 3 at the back, but we don't. So certainly over the next couple of years, Gerrard as one of a pair of 'attacking' midfielders strikes me as a better balance than being the lone roaming force behind Torres while two midfielders sit deep and contribute relatively little in attacking terms. We can and have and do discuss whether Lucas can develop into a better player in that regard; the summary being "we'll see". In the short-medium term, we may find Lucas more as the sole holding player, particularly if reports about Masch's refusing to discuss a new contract are even remotely true.

It seems only yesterday that I was arguing on other forums that Didi Hamann was too one-dimensional and we didn't need a one-dimensional defensive midfielder. At times with Alonso and Mascherano, we've had two. Some have told me to move with the times. But I was reassured, from a selfish do-I-have-a-clue-about-modern-football point of view, from Tomkins recent article on his meeting with Rafa: he was disappointed with Alonso for a period of 2 years, before last season. The period in which I'd been saying I didn't think Rafa wanted two static, sitting players (ok Masch isn't 'static', but offensively he might as well be). I said then and think Rafa's comments probably confirm, it seemed to me Alonso had 'settled' into a mindset of being the deep lying quarterback spraying 40 yard balls, when he really could have been a top class midfielder, almost box-to-box.

Essentially what I think Rafa wanted is not the common 'cautious' conception of the 4231 which has two 'holding' midfielders; but wants those two to operate more as central midifeld partnerships do traditionally: one to sit, one to be more mobile, get forward, 'box-to-box'; the centre of the 3 also providing a little insurance by being to drop deep and link up or help defensively. Clearly Lucas is/was supposed to be more the box-to-box player than simply a holding player; but Lucas still lacks something that makes him fully effective in that role, for me. I've posted once or twice in here about it and once or twice elsewhere. I'm going to be lazy and quote from the recent thread on the back of his own interview:

It seems the ongoing discussion about what sort of player Lucas "is" is still largely based on what people think he isn't; his positives are assumed as the opposite of perception of his weaknesses, rather than really having been demonstrated. Some think he's an attacking midfielder because he's not a strong tackler (and still gives away too many silly free kicks). Some think he must be a defensive midfielder, because he does little going forward. Some assert he's box to box, based only as far as I can see on him being a little more mobile than Alonso. I think a point in the article and his own words is closer to the mark - he's a water carrier.

At the moment, not a particularly notable one. But that I think still appears to be more of a mental issue than a physical or technical one. He does have some ability, but perhaps isn't quite driven, confident or sharp enough to make the most of it. There's no reason why he can't be more influential. It's often said that he always tries and never hides, but there is more than one way of hiding. I don't think he goes looking to influence a game as much as he might. At the moment he could be a decent water carrier for a few years, a useful member of the squad. If he's capable of more than that, it's up to him to show it (and perhaps, want it).

As a water carrier, and with doubts over Mascherano's future, we may see more of him in the deep role. He doesn't have Masch's energy, but he can tackle (wish he'd improve on giving away free kicks with clumsy bumps). He can be well suited to that role positionally and in terms of offering the outlet for defenders, wide players or Gerrard/Aquilani laying the ball back, receiving and keeping the ball moving.

So I think we may be seeing a shift - as the Tomkins article says, a shift was planned by Rafa for Barry: almost certainly, as some suggested at the time, for him and Gerrard to operate advanced of and either side of Mascherano in a 1-2 as opposed to a 2-1. It lessens the critical reliance on Gerrard offensively. It avoids exposing Gerrard's one real weakness in the present system - he's really quite ordinary if he's forced to play too advanced with his back to goal, isolated from the midfield and passively waiting for the ball rather than going looking for it. It finally answers the old 'where to play Gerrard' question, just when perhaps his physical style will be changing. Gerrard has often been (over) criticised for his liking for the 'hollywood' killer ball, but it's a perfectly legitimate tactic, particularly with a striker like Torres. With Lucas/Mascherano and Gerrard too close to Torres, it's an option we've lost. A small shift in his position re-enables that option, gives us another link up with Aquilani and allows Aquilani to be a second link with Torres; build an understanding - what about games where Gerrard is out, but for one reason or another the '2-1' is preferred.

Another tangent of this would be what impact it has on the two wide roles. I'm not going to go off on that one myself just now, but I suspect it may need not more width exactly, but more consistent "starting position width". Players like Kuyt and Riera, for example - who are fairly disciplined about taking up a wide position, but then more than happy to cut inside when they have the ball - perhaps, rather than the more unpredictable and drifting Benayoun.

Torres
^    --->             ^                  ^                <---    ^
|     |                   |                   |                     |     |
|     Riera       Aquilani         Gerrard         Kuyt     |
|                                                                          |
|                          Mascherano                             |
|                                                                          |
Insua           Agger          Carragher         Johnson

« Last Edit: October 25, 2009, 11:08:22 am by redmark »
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