Topic: The Level 3 Thread

[the_prodigal_s0n]

Lucas has the appetite, he might not have the ability game by game to do it effectively but he doesnt shy away from it. He did it at Trafford in March and he has done it in many other games last year...keep the faith in him.

I don't think Lucas can cope with using the ball well when under strong pressure. At least not yet anyway. He often does receive the ball when he's being closed down quickly, and releases it quickly, but the difference between him and Xabi is that Xabi will either play an excellent pass just as he's about to be closelined or will make the time and space to play a good ball.

Lucas, on the other hand, will release the ball, but generally to the closest player so that the problem is essentially passed elsewhere. In this sense, Xabi was far more forward thinking than Lucas currently is. This has the potential to change in time though.

[Joe_Singh]

I don't know Yorky.

Last season, I was happy when I saw The A-Team in our starting lineup, that is Aurelio, Agger and Alonso, because it meant 3 out of our 10 outfield players were accomplished on the ball.  I don't think these guys did lineup together too often and I would normally be satisfied with seeing 2 out of the 3.  However, against Spurs we had zero out of the 3. 

For me, these guys are a must in the starting XI.  They give their teammates that extra second or two on the ball which is vital in the modern game.  It's the difference between creating a chance or having to regain possession.  They perfectly complement the robust, aggressive and direct styles of Kuyt, Gerrard and Torres.  Without The A-Team, the attackers have less time and space in which to function.  Furthermore, the other players around them, the same players who looked so poor in possession against Spurs, benefit from that extra time and space.

The reason why I say I am not sure Yorky is because we haven't seen anything of Aquilani in this league, the player brought in to replace Alonso.  You would hope that Benitez has replaced like for like in the technique department.

Thats a valid point about the A team. I think due to Aggers central position on the pitch I believe he is the main guy now that Alonso has gone.

Going back to Carra, it really enforces the idea of having a Skrtel/Agger partnership doesn't it. I think if we do end up getting Turner from Hull he would be a like for like replacement for Carra with Carra acting as cover.

So is there a chant on the A team theme.

[redmark]

I don't think Lucas can cope with using the ball well when under strong pressure. At least not yet anyway. He often does receive the ball when he's being closed down quickly, and releases it quickly, but the difference between him and Xabi is that Xabi will either play an excellent pass just as he's about to be closelined or will make the time and space to play a good ball.

Lucas, on the other hand, will release the ball, but generally to the closest player so that the problem is essentially passed elsewhere. In this sense, Xabi was far more forward thinking than Lucas currently is. This has the potential to change in time though.

I re-watched the first 20 or so minutes of the game (i.e. upto a few minutes after Carragher headbutted Skrtel) last night to check a gut feeling I had at the time. It wasn't high tempo and not a lot of creativity on display, but we were controlling the game ok. Lucas looked quite relaxed and was using the ball quite well; read the game nicely a couple of times defensively too. It took a few minutes after the collision, but then Spurs realised Skrtel was in pain and Carragher was over-compensating - the hoofing and losing positional discipline. Spurs then stepped up the tempo and had 3 good chances between about 20 and 28 minutes; after that, we fell apart in terms of keeping possession.

As far as Lucas is concerned, I can't decide whether it was the physical pressure (higher tempo) or mental pressure that got to him, but something certainly did. After looking relaxed and confident for 20 minutes, he was anxious and sloppy for the next 50, until Gerrard came back into midfield (Insua also went his shell, after a couple of early forward runs was very quiet until late in the game). I'm sure Carragher's assault on Skrtel was the pivotal moment of the match, but a couple of other things disappointed in particular - a lack of leadership in the middle from Mascherano, a lack of awareness from Gerrard who spent the rest of the first half too high with the midfield unable to find him there anyway. While we were under pressure, we got no benefit from the Gerrard-Torres partnership and Gerrard should be able (or empowered) to see that and drop deeper to wrest back control of the midfield.

Lucas's ability to deal with pressure (physical and or mental) is a concern. Perhaps a bigger concern is whether Mascherano is going to take more responsibility and provide some leadership in that area. He can actually pass the ball, he's strong enough to take physical pressure and quick enough to recover if he does make a mistake. Too often when the defence had the ball Mascherano would amble forwards as he would when Alonso was in the side - but he needs to take more responsibility and make himself available for a short pass to avoid Carragher's hoofs. On a similar note, our CBs spreading wide when we have the ball at the back, allowing the fullbacks to push on, looks less convincing without Alonso to come and take the ball off them, the now-nervous Lucas reluctant, Mascherano not really seeming to think about it. These are the moments Gerrard may have to drop deep to kickstart a move; Lucas can be encouraged to move forwards and not worry about messing up that first, key pass through the opposition midfield thats put the defence under pressure.

We can't wait for or rely on Aquilani. I'd love there to be a Silva-signing, but it looks like we have enough money for Distin or half of Ryan Shawcross and that's it. That does leave some serious questions about a squad we were so confident about 3 months ago, but not unanswerable ones. While it may seem preferable in some ways to drop Gerrard into midfield with Benayoun behind Torres (perhaps the Gerrard-Torres partnership was glued together by Alonso; without him we may need other partnerships), it would be a terrible blow to Lucas and we might as well sell him immediately after the Stoke game.

[No666]

While we were under pressure, we got no benefit from the Gerrard-Torres partnership and Gerrard should be able (or empowered) to see that and drop deeper to wrest back control of the midfield.

Is this a possible weakness, in that our players are so used to receiving advice from the bench from Rafa as 'God' that they will not deviate from a pre-arranged plan without authorisation, except for minor events such as freekicks? (Xabi/Blackburn.) It's a thought. I'm just playing devil's advocate.

[the_prodigal_s0n]

Is this a possible weakness, in that our players are so used to receiving advice from the bench from Rafa as 'God' that they will not deviate from a pre-arranged plan without authorisation, except for minor events such as freekicks? (Xabi/Blackburn.) It's a thought. I'm just playing devil's advocate.

I'd disagree with that. I think it's simplifying things far too much. In the Ballague book on Rafa didn't Pellegrino say something along the lines of Rafa giving them about a dozen different ways of playing? I'm sure he'd give the players different plans to use during the game depending on the circumstances, along with telling them to use their own intelligence when needed. I very much doubt they have a set list of duties that they can't deviate from.

As for Gerrard being crowded out of a game, it does still happen from time to time, but he is a lot better now at making his influence felt in games that he's suffocated in. If I recall correctly, away to Fulham last year he was playing as the second striker and was completely nullified for the first part of the game. He then started dropping deep and going wide and was a lot more influential in the game. He's a lot more mature in this respect these days and will rarely have no effect whatsoever in a game.

[liverbnz]

Has anyone else seen the chalkboards for Lucas' passing in the Spurs game? I compared it to the corresponding fixture last season with Alonso. Alonso made 52 successful passes, with one into the box and 8 unsuccessful. Lucas made 36 successful with none into the danger area and 1 unsuccessful.

The strange thing about the chalkboards though is that is seems to count passes to the opposition as successful. Has anyone else noticed this or am I just being stupid?

[the_prodigal_s0n]

I'm pretty sure that the passes to the opposition is just an error in the name. It has a successful Lucas pass to Modric into our 6 yard box. It must have been a pass to Reina instead as I'm pretty sure I'd remember that!

Another thing about the Spurs chalkboard is that it doesn't show Carragher having a single 'long' pass from open play. I don't actually recall one myself yet a number of people have been criticising him of doing so. If he has cut this out of his game then it's a huge bonus. I'd still rather the Skrtel-Agger pairing though as his deficiencies with the ball in possession will never be eradicated.

[socrates the sophist]

I have been giving some thought to the counter arguments of the idea of pulling gerard back to mid-field (the destructionof Torres-Stevie link up, Stevie does not have the discipline to stay back) and I think I found a tweak to our current system that could get Stevie to play deeper without compromising the Torres-Stevie partnership. It sounds ridiculous but try to visualize it;

The problem we had against Spurs was that they pressed us hard preventing Stevie to get the ball in the final 3rd. Only when Stevie pushed back did we start getting hold of the game, but also (as a result) broke Stevie up from Torres. The Idea I have is also gonna spare Stevie from the heavier defensive pressing he would have to do as a central midfielder. It could also be considered as a back up plan in case Stevie (while playing in our usual 4-2-31) finds him self out of the game (tactically speaking):

If you'd try and recall the last 10 minutes of the Spurs game you will probably realize that we did not play with any wingers while attacking; Kuyt was subbed for Voronin, Yossi was playing the free role and Stevie has dropped into the center of midfield. In Johnson and Insua we have 2 full-backs who are capable of carrying out their attacking role with no aid from wingers. This will be the key to the tweak I am suggesting. Here is a look at our formation:


..................................................................Torres............................................................................

......Yossi...................................................Stevie............................................................Kuyt..........

..................................Lucas........................................................Masch...........................................

Insua.......................Skrtel.......................................................Carra.............................Johnson.....


The Idea is to keep our defensive system exactly the same to how we usually carry it out. However while building up to the attack Stevie will drop below Lucas and Masch to participate in the build up. Now rather than dominate the build up process (like Xabi did), Stevie should make sure that the ball reaches players who have the ability to play short simple passes (Lucas, Insua, Johnson, and sometimes Masch) and also offer an "out" to players who are poor with the ball in their feet (Carra, Skrtel and sometimes Masch).

                                       Lucas                           Masch
                                                       Stevie
                                                     
                   Insua            Skrtel                   Carra         Johnson



 Yossi tucks in from the left and assumes the free role position in case he is needed to exploit a specific opening in the opposition defense. While Kuyt remains on the right flank to try and pin the LB. Torres could even move (if he sees fit) to the left flank to drag the Cb or pin the rb back:


                        Torres................(torres)

                                                   Yossi......................Kuyt

                                   Lucas..................Masch

                        Insua............Stevie.....................Johnson

                                 Skrtel..............Carra
                                                 


 As we advance Kuyt starts retreating into a central midfield position. eventually (when we cross the half-way line) Gerard assumes his free-role position with Yossi complementing him, with Johnson and Insua bombing down both flanks. Kuyt's role becomes (primarily) Winning the ball and harassing opposition players high up the pitch as soon as we lose the ball:


                                                            Torres

                                    Yossi................Gerard............................Johnson
           
                  Insua
                                       Lucas............................................Kuyt
                                                             Masch

so basically the idea is to restrict Kuyt's freedom to an Arbeloa like right-back and add that attacking freedom to Johnson, Torres and Yossi as well as giving Gerard more responsibility to participate in the build-up.
 
       

[liverbnz]

I'm pretty sure that the passes to the opposition is just an error in the name. It has a successful Lucas pass to Modric into our 6 yard box. It must have been a pass to Reina instead as I'm pretty sure I'd remember that!

Another thing about the Spurs chalkboard is that it doesn't show Carragher having a single 'long' pass from open play. I don't actually recall one myself yet a number of people have been criticising him of doing so. If he has cut this out of his game then it's a huge bonus. I'd still rather the Skrtel-Agger pairing though as his deficiencies with the ball in possession will never be eradicated.

Well the name and number would both be wrong in that case. Plus, there is no pass on the chalkboard showing Lucas passing it to anyone in a Spurs shirt in our box. Would love to know what the problem was with the chalkboards, as it will reduce there vaildity (well to me anyway ) until it is known.


@socrates the sophist

Nice post, but surely that would involve Gerrard taking on a huge workload, and enivtabley asking him to do too much? Also it would mean the build-up was quite slow and methodical which was always part of our probelm in breaking down teams, especially at Anfield.

Also, this brings back the single point-guard issue, with Alonso exchanged for Gerrard. I think Rafa wants to move away from the reliance of one player controlling our games, to everyone taking more responsibility.

[hesbighesred]

Personally, I'd just like Gerrard, and Torres to an extent, to be a little more flexible and aware when it comes to Lucas in particular, but also Kuyt.

By which I mean, there is nothing inherently wrong with G&T coming deeper to look for the ball from time to time. We don't need to put Gerrard into CM directly for him to wonder into that area more often. The pair of them could do with trusting in the abilities of Kuyt and Lucas to take their place i the box instead. Sure, neither is as good, but that type of movement causes the opposition massive problems in and of itself.

We're still in a state where we seem to be expecting Mash and Lucas to just be Alonso, and it's particularly harsh on Lucas. Be a bit more compact around him, give the ball back to him, and then suddenly all those 'unambitious' passes become the type of give and goes Yorky was waxing lyrical about in relation to Barcelona.

I only saw the highlights of the Spurs game (the .TV ones mind, so you do get some of the picture at least), and was struck again by how Lucas can and will take charge, but his team-mates seem to ignore it. There was very, very often one of Mash or Lucas free in CM, only for (usually Carra) to smack it long - even when Carra often had acres of space and eons of time in which to pick his pass, wait for a good pass, or carry it himself. It's not getting any better and with Alonso gone Carra is, for me, bordering on a liability when he's on the ball. Indeed, I'd much rather he passed to Reina to hoof it if that's what he's so desperate to do because in all honesty, his long passes aren't even that accurate. Massively frustrating. Similarly, G&T showed very little willing/intelligence in terms of adapting to the situation. If you're not getting the supply Torres, it is allowed for you to come deeper. In particular, it's allowed for you to get the ball and lay it off simply and quickly rather than trying to turn and dribble EVERY SINGLE TIME you get the ball.

There's a selfishness from those two that bothers me. It's not so critical when we had one player acting as a fulcrum by himself, but really we need the whole team to step up more. Everyone needs to be more of a playmaker, and that includes the front-men. Achieve that (which was actually impossible with Alonso in the team, because despite his brilliance he is very limited in how best you can use him - like Riquelme in many ways) and we'll be a far better side than we were, but it's not going to happen if G&T and indeed Carra, don't include themselves into that learning and adapting process.

A couple of examples:

Forgotten where I saw it, but there's a pic frozen of Torres, having dropped a little deeper and held the ball for once, attacking the Spurs defence. It shows perfectly two great passing opportunities, on to put Gerrard clean through on the right, and an even better, and not even tough, ball to put Kuyt 1 on 1, on his right foot. Torres takes the extra touch and loses the ball, which not only ends our attack but gives Spurs the ball with 3 of our players taken out straight-away. Torres does exactly this time, time, time again, and his turn and dribble routine hasn't even produced consistent results since season one. It needs to become a weapon in his Arsenal, not the same thing he does pretty much ALL the time whenever and wherever he gets the ball. I personally have seen this as an issue in his game since half-way through season one and it's even more of one with Alonso gone.

The second example was our first shot (I think). Gerrard putting it 2m wide from a long shot. Look at that bit of play, and you see he has a very simple pass - and lots of time in which to give it - to put Kuyt clean through, 1 on 1, potentially central and on his right foot...but no. He shoots from a very, very difficult position. If that had been the other way round, Gerrard would have waved his arms around and given Kuyt a right old earful. It was a really shit bit of football from one of the best 'through-ball' passers I've ever seen. Massively frustrating - and that could have put us 1-0 up and calmed our nerves massively.

Still, it has to be said BazC's posts on this have massively reassured me, certainly in terms of this taking time. It's spot on. We've always taken time to 'warm up' at the start of the season regardless, let alone when a shift in mentality/tactics/playing style has been needed as it is now. It was wishful thinking on my part to hope/believe as I did that we might just click straight away. I also think Baz was spot on about their being glimmers of hope. Spurs away is not now, nor can I ever remember it being (even when they're shite) a 'banker' fixture. Even when won it's usually tight, and they have always been able to cause anyone problems at their place. Well worth noting that Man Utd failed to win ANY of their away fixtures against last season's eventual top 8 - it was always a nightmare of a fixture to start off on, and I can count on the fingers of one arse the number of times we've looked anything like a proper team in the first match of a Rafa season. By the same token, we've finished very, very strongly every single time - including last season where the pressure was very much on despite us chasing rather than leading.

Bring on Stoke - delighted to have that particular fixture so soon. Of course, if we don't win it the world will literally end, but if we can win that's already a ghost of last season laid to rest and a big confidence booster - plenty enough to forget a loss in an very, very losable fixture anyway. The defeat also (hopefully) means any complacency should have been erased...certainly I expect much better, and less selfish play from G&T (especially given their hopefully superior fitness).

[hesbighesred]

Just a quick not on Lucas creativity/passing into the box:

For the last two seasons his proportion of direct assists per minute played has been far superior to Xabi's, and looking through a lot of last seasons chalkboards I'd say that, if anything, of the two he is the MORE likely to try a genuine through ball from that position. I'd rate it as one of his great strengths, but he needs to be able to give and go more to get into the position and for opponents to be moved out of the way enough for him to take the risk consistently. Equally, he needs to be trusted with the ball a lot more when he does get forward, and Gerrard being willing to drop into his place more would help that enourmously.

On a totally seperate note, I really, really, really wish Gerrard would stop taking all of our bloody set-pieces...or to put it another way, I think I might throw a little tantrum if he's still number one when Aurelio, in particular, is on the pitch. (Does anyone know if Aquilani takes a good passed free-kick/corner? Lucas does coming to think of it, 2 assists Vs PSV spring to mind. Certainly I'd trust him over Gerrard, and I would think that could be another way of boosting his confidence...)

[No666]

Be a bit more compact around him, give the ball back to him, and then suddenly all those 'unambitious' passes become the type of give and goes Yorky was waxing lyrical about in relation to Barcelona.

And presumably allows us a natural solution to the extreme pressing game operated by Spurs to stifle us - the inviting defenders towards the ball and by-passing them scenario outlined therein.

[hesbighesred]

And presumably allows us a natural solution to the extreme pressing game operated by Spurs to stifle us - the inviting defenders towards the ball and by-passing them scenario outlined therein.

Exactly. In particular because Lucas (and I think this may be one of his problems actually) doesn't tend to dwell on the ball for more than a micro-second before releasing it. I'll never forget his debut - by coming on for Gerrard the team was forced to accept him as the fulcrum of our passing play, and honestly I've rarely seen us play that well against 10 men. We went from clueless to clinical by subbing (arguably) the best player in the world for a 20 year old green-horn from gremio. That represents the Lucas future in my mind, and it's gutting that we've seen it so rarely since. Partly it's down to Lucas confidence - no doubt there, but I still think senior players have a massive responsibility to adapt as well, especially now, because whether it's Lucas or Aquilani (by the sounds of him) very similar tactical approaches are going to apply - if G&T are as static and selfish, and if players stay rooted expecting that long pass from Alonso, it'll make Aquilani look just as 'average' as Lucas often has. Of course he can't impose his strengths on a game if the players around him are making it hugely difficult for him to exploit those strengths.

On a brighter note - I was seriously impressed by his tackling on Sunday. A hell of a lot of ball won, and next to no fouls given away. If he can keep that up he could start threatening Mascherano in some games, even if his strengths aren't being played too. I certainly love the idea of Auilani/Lucas/Gerrard all playing against some arch bus parking team.

That said, I've always been biased towards Lucas, even before he signed, simply because I've been dreaming of my whole Liverpool supporting life of us being in a position to sign someone like a Kaka before they become 'KAKA'. Lucas was (and still is) that player - the next big brazilian thing, and I honestly never, ever thought it would happen.

Also makes me desperate for him to succeed not just because I think he's great, but because him becoming a top/world class player here would make us a serious draw for young Brazilian talent.

[Pr0n]

Really good points on our play HBHR.. Especially about G&T who I felt did nothing to help the situation on sunday, in any way..

It must be about them having become comfortable with waiting, rather than acting - to help our attacking moves. It's not surprising, after all. Kuyt does a LOT of work without the ball, Xabi was picking out the passes while Lucas or Mascher were disciplined and still supporting the attack.. Yossi also does a lot of work without the ball. So the forwards are usually set up very well to just wait for them to make their input on the ball.. besides putting pressure/chasing the odd lost cause that is.

Now, g&t did not perform on sunday anywhere near to their standard but I think it's pretty unacceptable when they were so relatively clueless about how to work in the team to get results - disregarding completely the issue of match-fitness (which was evident). I seriously expect a stern correction from Rafa in that sense, for tomorrow. There can be no complacency to the team-attack any more.

I was wondering myself now, if Carras hoofing/Reinas long balls actually was a part of the game plan.. In the sense that it was so reocurring. It looked like we were trying to get Torres behind their defence - really, really basic but not so appealing counter-attacking/direct play.. I don't know, but it might have been one of the possible outlets (attacking moves) "endorsed" by Rafa that simply got overused with our team struggling to keep compact, loosing balance and posession as a result - in turn paving the way for pressing in vain, and Spurs finding spaces in areas where they shouldn't be allowed any..

I don't know.. In some ways the first half was a complete meltdown.

[philindirt]

                                   LETS MAKE IT MESSI FOR THE MANCS

         It's my birthday and I'm in Florida. Being of Huyton/Toxteth origin I tend to appreciate these small luxuries in life. My roommate bought me the Beatles "White Album" probably because of the first track "They say it's your Birthday" and my Liverpool connection. But I had a different slant on the rest of the tracks. (I don't want to talk about Spurs, it'll ruin my birthday.) Don't get me wrong, I do have a fine musical pedigree, starting with the likes of "Joy Division" to groups like "Interpol" etc. But "The White Album" brought back some pride into my culture, reminding me that I wouldn't come from any other city in the world.

You say it's your birthday
It's my birthday too, yeah
Yes we're going to a party party
       
        Oh, by the way, I'm "Red Writer," big mates with "Red Artist," who I believe you are all familiar with. I wrote "The Limestreet  Massacre"also a short story named "Red Gladiators," which was published as a part of a collection of pieces toward a book named "Tales from the traveling Kop" dedicated to the Hillsborough fund. "Gladiators" was a version of my exploits in Rome '77' (I hitch hiked to both Rome and Paris for the '81' final) and about to publish a novel named "Murderous Thoughts about my Hairdresser," which starts off in Liverpool and ends up in Florida (sound familiar) and the Florida paper wants to do a piece about their local scouser, ha!
     
       Anyway, the best birthday present I received, albeit early was the goal by Messi in the Champions League final, it might as well be scored by a scouser. Speaking of birthdays there is a rumor (supposedly started by my mother) that the first words out of my mouth as a child were not "Mummy," or "Daddy," but "I HATE MANCS."  Like I say, it's just a rumor , but who can tell?

      Which brings us back to "The White Album".

I'm coming down fast but I'm miles above you
Now helter skelter helter skelter
Yea Ooh!
LFC
Cry baby cry
Make your mother sigh
She's old enough to know better
So cry baby cry (Ferguson)
       Let's get the pride back in our city and above all our team. The last time I went to the Kop it was, I'm afraid to say, dismal. Allright, during the standing days there was a chance someone would piss on your back because there was no way he was going to make it to the toilet. But we were one!!! And as they say, "The Twelfth Man." The greatest supporters that ever lived. I have been in Belgium and heard Anderlecht supporters singing "You'll Never Walk Alone." Outrageous but marvelous.
    Critics say we need another striker, a midfielder; I say we need an Arab; a rich one. He can play anywhere, the septics aren't doing us any good. In the mean time we can do our bit by making every game a final, let the twelfth man do his bit. I mean this to be a rallying call in the true spirit of Henry V at Agincore. Let's roar and make the lads on the pitch in our beloved red shirts proud of us.
We will never walk alone.

[hassinator]

We're still in a state where we seem to be expecting Mash and Lucas to just be Alonso, and it's particularly harsh on Lucas. Be a bit more compact around him, give the ball back to him, and then suddenly all those 'unambitious' passes become the type of give and goes Yorky was waxing lyrical about in relation to Barcelona.

great post seb.  growing pains is the key and you're right about carra - its like riise all over where the team has developed but he doesn't have the tools to stay with us.  i'm not going to diss him as he's played above himself for the past few seasons but sans alonso distribution from the back is key and carra isn't quite the baresi figure we might want to believe.

if the budget stories are true - i don't think they are as i can't imagine rafa not walking if they were - then we have to make what we have work best and that means being more compact in midfield and like last year growing into a new system.

i think you're also right about stoke.  time to get back on the bike and prove we've got it in us.  if we put them to the sword - and we should after two run outs last year - the wheels are back on. 

if not i'm not sure we're quite at the post mortem stage but you can see the press already sharpening their scalpels with the manchester guardian leading monday's sport on 'rafa's rant' at the refs.

[socrates the sophist]

@socrates the sophist

Nice post, but surely that would involve Gerrard taking on a huge workload, and inevitably asking him to do too much? Also it would mean the build-up was quite slow and methodical which was always part of our problemm in breaking down teams, especially at Anfield.

Also, this brings back the single point-guard issue, with Alonso exchanged for Gerrard. I think Rafa wants to move away from the reliance of one player controlling our games, to everyone taking more responsibility.
[/quote]

1) I can see as you say how this role will be more than what Stevie does now, but by no means is it too much. Xavi does a similar role for Barce; I remember Royhendo writing about how Xavi drops in between Pique and Puyol when Barce are building up an attack.

2) I don't think it has to be slow but it certainly has to be patient; Carra and Skrtel should hold up the ball until Stevie drops from then on it is up to the players to control the tempo. of course this should be done when we decide to build from defense up to the final third which we saw often. Plus having the players pass the ball around patiently should give them more confidence as the game moves on. as regards to this being too methodical I definitely agree. But obviously this only a guideline, a script. it is all about the interpretation "and I am using Sacchi's term her"

3) I mention in the post that the idea is not to rely on Stevie but rather use him as a mediator between bad technical players (carra) and good ones (Johnson, Insua, Lucas) who will share responsibility in building up the attack.

HBHR: I have mixed feelings about your post (although it is a very good one):

I agree that Stevie and T should be less rigid. I also agree with the point that players must adapt to not having Alonso in the team. However I disagree with that what they should adapt to is having Lucas as the new playmaker. The whole idea of selling Xabi was to rebel against having one regista. Benitez described Aquilani as a very good passer, but also someone who is very mobile. This I think is the key change which our team will witness; the players must not adapt to Lucas or Aquilani, we just must adapt to a new style of play altogether.

However I do feel Liverpool well surprise us with a good performance tomorrow (fingers crossed!)

[Pr0n]

@socrates the sophist

Nice post, but surely that would involve Gerrard taking on a huge workload, and inevitably asking him to do too much? Also it would mean the build-up was quite slow and methodical which was always part of our problemm in breaking down teams, especially at Anfield.

Also, this brings back the single point-guard issue, with Alonso exchanged for Gerrard. I think Rafa wants to move away from the reliance of one player controlling our games, to everyone taking more responsibility.


1) I can see as you say how this role will be more than what Stevie does now, but by no means is it too much. Xavi does a similar role for Barce; I remember Royhendo writing about how Xavi drops in between Pique and Puyol when Barce are building up an attack.

2) I don't think it has to be slow but it certainly has to be patient; Carra and Skrtel should hold up the ball until Stevie drops from then on it is up to the players to control the tempo. of course this should be done when we decide to build from defense up to the final third which we saw often. Plus having the players pass the ball around patiently should give them more confidence as the game moves on. as regards to this being too methodical I definitely agree. But obviously this only a guideline, a script. it is all about the interpretation "and I am using Sacchi's term her"

3) I mention in the post that the idea is not to rely on Stevie but rather use him as a mediator between bad technical players (carra) and good ones (Johnson, Insua, Lucas) who will share responsibility in building up the attack.

HBHR: I have mixed feelings about your post (although it is a very good one):

I agree that Stevie and T should be less rigid. I also agree with the point that players must adapt to not having Alonso in the team. However I disagree with that what they should adapt to is having Lucas as the new playmaker. The whole idea of selling Xabi was to rebel against having one regista. Benitez described Aquilani as a very good passer, but also someone who is very mobile. This I think is the key change which our team will witness; the players must not adapt to Lucas or Aquilani, we just must adapt to a new style of play altogether.

However I do feel Liverpool well surprise us with a good performance tomorrow (fingers crossed!)

Sorry for intruding.. but for me patience is a key to why Gerrard wouldn't be very successful helping out with the distribution of play - the biggest reason being that he likes to be very hands on and direct - often trying for the more difficult option without asessing the risk. Xabi was a very controlled player and although it may not have looked like it, he took very few risks (some of his passes would be a risk for others though!) due to the precision passing and overall calmness to the build up, effectively playing (for him) very safe passes. I do think that we can move the ball up the field more quickly than having one player picking out the perfect opening pass and for that we need better movement and more players involved in attacking movements.. nevermind playing the ball trough midfield (however quickly we can) instead of resorting to long passes to a mirage of an opening. For me, Agger and Aurelio are the ones who will have to take more responsability for distributing play..

[kaz1983]

For me, Agger and Aurelio are the ones who will have to take more responsability for distributing play..

Fully agree, 100%.

[RedMichelFerri]

I am not sure if Lucas and monster are the reason behind our bad display in middle of the field. Its definitely Carra who was the main culprit. Whenever we played with Alonso, Carra will pass ball to him. But in spurs game even though Monster and Lucas made themselves available for Pass, Carra simply ignored them most of the time and hoofed it and immediately spurs were getting at us. Its only when Gerrard come in midfield, Carra was releasing the ball to him and in turn he was spreading those balls to Lucas and Yossi. Gerrard didn't play Alonsoesque Balls but simple small passes with Yossi, Lucas and Torres providing the movement and we become much better. Someone needs to sort out Carra's head. He never trust anyone with ball except Gerrard and Alonso. Now with Alonso gone and Gerrard upfield, Rafa needs to tell him to bring Lucas and Monster in play instead of hoofing it and loosing the ball to opposition.

[royhendo]

Nice to have you aboard Philindirt.

 
I don't think Jamie will ever get his Premier League winner's medal by the way. Does anybody else?

It's one we're all gonna be wrestling with if we're honest Yorky. It was a little depressing to watch Chelsea click into gear last night as Sunderland parked their bus. As you hint at in your description of Xabi, maybe the ultimate goal is a side that makes it inherently risky for teams that try and press. Pop pop pop, intelligent support and movement, and any number of them are out of the game.

But we were a country mile from that at the weekend. You found yourself if that brand is even the immediate goal, because if it is, surely it'll take a long time to truly bed in without key cogs in the machine... and then it's a case of 'when does a sticky patch become a transitional season?'. Its mayb a bit melodramatic that, but pragmatism has to reign and that near automatic ability to grind out results has to kick in when we're playing like a burst drain.

We could use a nerve settler tonight eh?

[scatman]

im starting to get the feeling that Fabio will play in the center this season, and I think it would be a good move, I wouldnt want him displacing Lucas or Mascherano but maybe in some games he will.

That Guardian chalkboard is shit, Carragher must have done at least 20 long balls in that Spurs game.

[Hank Scorpio]

I am not sure if Lucas and monster are the reason behind our bad display in middle of the field. Its definitely Carra who was the main culprit. Whenever we played with Alonso, Carra will pass ball to him. But in spurs game even though Monster and Lucas made themselves available for Pass, Carra simply ignored them most of the time and hoofed it and immediately spurs were getting at us. Its only when Gerrard come in midfield, Carra was releasing the ball to him and in turn he was spreading those balls to Lucas and Yossi. Gerrard didn't play Alonsoesque Balls but simple small passes with Yossi, Lucas and Torres providing the movement and we become much better. Someone needs to sort out Carra's head. He never trust anyone with ball except Gerrard and Alonso. Now with Alonso gone and Gerrard upfield, Rafa needs to tell him to bring Lucas and Monster in play instead of hoofing it and loosing the ball to opposition.

Exactly.

Carragher hardly gave Lucas or Mascherano the chance to distribute the ball from the back.  On one of the occasions that he did trust Lucas he was able to play a nice interchange and then release Mascherano.  Seconds later we had won the penalty that brought us level.  With that passage of play being so close to the start of the 2nd half you would hope that words were exchanged between the management and Carragher during HT.

Carragher's problem in possession is all a mental one, IMO.  He doesn't actually have bad technique but he has always got his defensive head on, even when we are attacking (in possession).  That is why he will hardly go 5 yards to a Lucas or Mascherano because he feels that there is a chance they will lose the ball, a greater chance than if he found Gerrard/Alonso, and the subsequent problems presented to the defence will be 1) an opposition attack launched inside our own half (closer to the goal) 2) teammates out of position defensively as we open up to try and build play.  The long pass/ball out of defence allows him time to regroup the troops and gets the ball further away from goal.  It's negative but safe football at it's maximum.  Again, this is all my opinion.

When you contrast this to the approach of, say, Carles Puyol, you will see a difference.  Again, IMO, Carragher probably has better technique than Puyol, but the key difference between the two is their approach.  Puyol will trust and play short, early passes to Busquets and Toure just as much as with Iniesta and Xavi.  He will then make himself available for possession again instead of standing there right arm outstretched at a 45 degree angle looking like some red faced disciple of Hitler.  This makes Puyol a lot less predictable.

To be honest, I really, really, really didn't want to be thinking 'we miss Alonso' in the opening weeks of this season but those thoughts have trickled into my head over the last few days following the first half at Spurs.  I become disillusioned when I think about the football we are trying to achieve by selling Alonso and keeping a player like Carragher in the side.  But I suppress these thoughts because for the first time in a little while I fully trust the boss.

Think about what Alonso could have done with Johnson marauding down the...ah fuck it.

[Pr0n]

im starting to get the feeling that Fabio will play in the center this season, and I think it would be a good move, I wouldnt want him displacing Lucas or Mascherano but maybe in some games he will.

That Guardian chalkboard is shit, Carragher must have done at least 20 long balls in that Spurs game.

I sure hope not.. Aurelio was all over the place defensively last season vs Pompey.. did well once he was moved out wide. Too big of a transition in terms of positioning and Aurelio is not the best positioner anyway.

[No666]

He will then make himself available for possession again instead of standing there right arm outstretched at a 45 degree angle looking like some red faced disciple of Hitler.

 

[scatman]

good post Hank Scorpio and the comparison between Carra and Puyol is ideal. Anyone think Carra may be moving into 2nd choice this season if the two young CB's actually stay fit?

[royhendo]

The chalkboards are only as good as the guys collating the stats I guess.

[Degs]

The chalkboards are only as good as the guys collating the stats I guess.

To compare 2 players using stats is only useful in a game of top trumps, there is no distance of the pass, quality of the pass, speed of the pass, direction of the pass etc. taken into account. When comparing 2 players in the "pivot" position then stats are meaningless. Every sideways ball and backwards ball, that allows the opposition to get back into position and halts our drive forward is counted as a success.

If you want to judge a "pivot" as a success, or not, the only thing you need is your eyes to see whether the player advances the play forward while maintaining his position.  In the style of Alonso or Pirlo.
If he's not doing that then the stats you'll need don't exist, those of running off the ball, movement through the middle, support play etc.

[abhred]

So this is where it starts? Glimpses of the fluid football we've been hoping for. Think I've never seen our wingers have a free role as much as they did today.

It was just all round. Our passing, our probing, our pressing. Just brilliant.

[Degs]

So this is where it starts? Glimpses of the fluid football we've been hoping for. Think I've never seen our wingers have a free role as much as they did today.

It was just all round. Our passing, our probing, our pressing. Just brilliant.

Aye it was amazing at it's best, Gerrard went further back which allowed Lucas to go further forward in tandem, while Mascherano was given the sole responsibility of winning the ball and wasn't burdened with making the killer pass, Gerrard's vacated position was filled by the brilliant Benayoun and Kuyt together while the full backs provided their vacated width.

At times it looked more like the 4-3-3 we've been mentioning but maybe in Rafa's mind it was always supposed to and just morphed itself into the 4-2-3-1 when Alonso and Gerrard showed how adept they were in their specialised positions.

The only worry I have is that this is our "home" mindset, more freedom to venture forward for Lucas, more in the box lingering from the wide(ish) men and wing-backs.

Glen Johnson is a force of nature at the back and further up the pitch.

And I hope this is more than Rafa speaking Greek: "We are working hard to see if we can announce good new signings. We have enough money for now."

[hassinator]

get down.  a very happy hassinator tonight and glad to see wise words spoken in here - roy, degs, hbhr - vindicated tonight.

if anyone hasn't checked out seb's thread 'knee jerk' in the main forum please get in there now.

[manifest]

The Liverpool Stoke game isn't being shown till Thursday here, so I watched Burnley take down the mancs..... and we think we've got problems.....here was a game that ronaldo used to win for them, ....no longer.  .......oh, and owen missed two easy chances 

There's always comfort in the misfortune of others, at least where football is concerned. Can you hear the panic on redcafe? In a couple of days there'll be a thread called "knee jerk".

And we got back to last seasons normal score of 4 per game. 

[High_Cotton]

Two more points than we had last year from the same fixtures.  Happy days.

[hassinator]

The Liverpool Stoke game isn't being shown till Thursday here, so I watched Burnley take down the mancs..... and we think we've got problems.....here was a game that ronaldo used to win for them, ....no longer.  .......oh, and owen missed two easy chances 

There's always comfort in the misfortune of others, at least where football is concerned. Can you hear the panic on caferouge? In a couple of days there'll be a thread called "knee jerk".

And we got back to last seasons normal score of 4 per game. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schadenfreude

my absolutely favourite word ever

[hassinator]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schadenfreude

my absolutely favourite word ever

EDIT: oh and i've just got banned from facebook - what a relief i hear four of you cry - for gloating too much.  bad hassinator.

[Neil D]

You can see the shape of our play evolving in midfield - we are moving towards a more fluid style of play that for all his qualities the static Xabi just couldn't ever adapt to. And on the flanks we are finally seeing the kind of marauding fullbacks Rafa has dreamed of ever since he tried to sign Alves. We don't need fullbacks whose primary strength is defending or are consistent solid players when we play 16 out of the 20 teams in this division.

[hassinator]

You can see the shape of our play evolving in midfield - we are moving towards a more fluid style of play that for all his qualities the static Xabi just couldn't ever adapt to. And on the flanks we are finally seeing the kind of marauding fullbacks Rafa has dreamed of ever since he tried to sign Alves. We don't need fullbacks whose primary strength is defending or are consistent solid players when we play 16 out of the 20 teams in this division.

roger that but massive props to seb for emphasising what a lot of us though with his knee jerk thread.

i've said it before but in face of recent ups and downs it's worth saying again:

rome wasn't built in a day.

[hesbighesred]

EDIT: oh and i've just got banned from facebook - what a relief i hear four of you cry - for gloating too much.  bad hassinator.

hehehe! Well in Hass - my G/F's cousin could have been in for some - but to be honest I'm saving it. Saving it all. Someday, there will be an epic number of posts from me WUMMING the crap out of 606 and a few Manc sites. I know, I know, childish and pathetic, but having started my internet warrioring on 606 some of that atmosphere still lingers...

Anyway, apropos of nothing other than my own personal delight:

I'd also just like to say a massive, massive congratulations to Robbie Blake - a minor personal hero of mine, being as he is an absolute Darlo (Darlington, my 'local' club given where I grew up and, though I'm born in London) LEGEND, and player I've seen in the fresh a couple of times on the extremely dodgy and now defunct South Terrace at Feethams. He's one of a surprising number of proper talents from a club that has suffered a load of shit down the years, and it's great to see him doing the biz, into his 30's, for another unheralded Northern club - I don't think there's many who deserve another shout at the prem more than him (he had one with Bradford but was oddly overlooked by their gaffer at prem level) - I didn't think he'd get the chance again, yet there he was, absolutely belting the winner against the mancs. Well in lad!

[Juan Loco]

I'll say it in here because if I say it on the main board the common folk will take it the wrong way and go nuts; Benayoun - Iniesta-lite

We always talk about how Xabi dictated play, but since this boy has been given a run he's more than content to drop deep, take the ball under pressure, come infield and play a pass that turns a midfield back to facing their own goal. Did it over and over again tonight. Might not picking give Carra or Skrtel the easy pass but Insua and Mascherano can always find him and he'll always hold someone off and play a good pass in field. He's slowly morphing from just a very clever player who can score and play a final pass into a guy who is a genuine playmaker and heavily involved in nearly all the moves.

Not likely to become Iniesta class at running a game but I don't care. If he keeps up the form of the last 6 months there's not a player in the league playing the same position I'd swap him for.

Mozoltov Yossi!

[hesbighesred]

You can see the shape of our play evolving in midfield - we are moving towards a more fluid style of play that for all his qualities the static Xabi just couldn't ever adapt to. And on the flanks we are finally seeing the kind of marauding fullbacks Rafa has dreamed of ever since he tried to sign Alves. We don't need fullbacks whose primary strength is defending or are consistent solid players when we play 16 out of the 20 teams in this division.

Johnson is looking class already isn't he?

Someone mentioned Evra earlier - it's a good point, but I'd go even further. Insua is giving us what the Mancs have had in Evra - Johnson is a class above that (well, touch wood) - Evra's a threat, no doubt at all - but do you fear his shots? Can he twist defenders either way, drop them on their arse like Johnson can? Has Evra ever pulled out a bit of play like that run, cut inside and left-foot shot that was well saved by Sorensen? No fluke either - he did exactly that for Portsmouth a number of times last season, and he will see a lot more of the ball with us than he did with them.

Sure, Evra's a threat - but only in one way really, he's pacy, good on the ball, and has a quality cross. He isn't going to make defenders guess, and he isn't going to threaten goalkeepers all that much. Johnson, on the other hand, is absolutely unplayable when he's in the mood - and on that form gives us a definite option as a more orthodox RW should we need it.

Next - he's so composed on the ball that you forget that, physically, he's a bloody monster too. What an athlete. His grace distracts you from his Micah Richards-like physique - that is until you see Stoke players (which must be one of the biggest and strongest sides in the prem) bouncing off him. I'm going overboard here but I can't help it - the way they were bouncing off him, and the ease he was brushing players off him, reminded me of Jonah Lomu against England back in the day...frightening speed and power combined, absolute flattening what was a very physical England side left right and centre. Bloody glorious feeling when a player you've wanted to see at the club for ages looks to be coming good like that - coupled with the increasing support and confidence for Lucas (and of course Blake) I am one happy chappy tonight.

Also, two assists and a goal puts him right up there with Gerrard as our main matchwinner at the moment - one of my big reasons for wanting him here even at the price - he can be, he IS, another matchwinner, regardless of where he plays. He can be an extra game breaker right up their with our refreshing cocktail duo (which I've been drinking a fair bit of recently I must admit - G&T rocks!)

Bring on Villa, again really looking forward to that, and really hoping Lucas can step up again against what will be a far, far tougher midfield challenge - even without Barry. Oh, and word for Mash - his passing was quality, and creative, tonight (by and large) and that challenge on him which should have been a red - well maybe we've found a replacement for that side of Xabi's game too

One last thing:]

Credit to Tony Pulis, I'm liking him more and more and more. In particular, I'm loving his emphasis of how hard it is to play against a side with progressive full-backs and wingers who cut inside - any team would have struggled with our width today, even if we hadn't seen much of the ball.