Topic: The Level 3 Thread

[Degs]

I fucking love curly wurlys.

These chalkboards are good but sometimes there's so much information that it's hard to see what's really going on.
So when I was having a moan about missing Alonso in he middle and Lucas not getting forward enough this is what I meant.

Nobody complained about him not getting forward after Newcastle because he got forward.

[meerkat]
Simples
[/meerkat]

<a href="http://www.guardianchalkboards.com/guardianchalkboards_embed.swf?chalkBoardID=8aR899F16T8zS26439cb" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.guardianchalkboards.com/guardianchalkboards_embed.swf?chalkBoardID=8aR899F16T8zS26439cb</a>

Right so it's clear there that when Lucas Leiva has been filling in for Alonso alongside Mascherano he hasn't been shooting enough, shooting is a natural product of getting forward.

Look below at another Lucas/Masch game, Stoke away.
No shots.

Then again a partnership of Mascherano/Lucas yields no shots against Fulham UNTIL Alonso is brought on to partner Lucas in midfield.
Is this a direct result of the change, does Lucas feel more secure alongside Alonso, or is he scrambling for a winner?
All we can tell is that as soon as Alonso comes on Lucas drives forward in and around the box trying to win the game.
A totally different player

(Alonso came on in the 65th minute by the way)

<a href="http://www.guardianchalkboards.com/guardianchalkboards_embed.swf?chalkBoardID=Wen44k16568y769h4d05" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.guardianchalkboards.com/guardianchalkboards_embed.swf?chalkBoardID=Wen44k16568y769h4d05</a>

Now you can argue that shots aren't the be all and end all but for me they're the perfect indicator of where you're willing to "abandon" your natural position to get to, and the indicator to which the boss wants an attacking team to go out and win.

The more shots in and around the box, the further forward you are, the more attacking you are playing, and for me the higher chance of winning the match.

The Newcastle match stands out as the Lucas anomaly, so let's have a look.
Although it's hard to see he had 4 shots, 3 from about 2 yards out.
He's also trying for the killer ball to Gerrard even though he's losing it.
For Lucas to play a pass that is more likely than not to lose it is unusual, usually he'll finish with next to non incompleted passes.

<a href="http://www.guardianchalkboards.com/guardianchalkboards_embed.swf?chalkBoardID=jRy57KC2dZ380r125u8B" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.guardianchalkboards.com/guardianchalkboards_embed.swf?chalkBoardID=jRy57KC2dZ380r125u8B</a>

I've said before that Lucas is my Rafa barometer, you can see the "pressure" Rafa has put on the team to win/push forward through the actions of Lucas, I could pull up his very first match coming on against Everton where almost every single pass was inside the Everton half.
Then when Xabi comes on in matches he's given the order to attack.

He hasn't been THE scapegoat, he's been playing out of position.
I don't care if he played there for Gremio, and Brazil, even though if you look back it looks as though he was further forward than he is now, and I'm sorry but t's because of this:

He gives away too many fouls to be playing in the centre of midfield.

As I've highlighted before, despite playing only 7 games he has mroe fouls than any of our other central midfielders, including Mascherano.

Every red dot is a free kick conceded.

<a href="http://www.guardianchalkboards.com/guardianchalkboards_embed.swf?chalkBoardID=8Gh4I583V4r6aO1F8BWR" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.guardianchalkboards.com/guardianchalkboards_embed.swf?chalkBoardID=8Gh4I583V4r6aO1F8BWR</a>

So what is he people?
Defensive mid, box to box, or attacking midfielder.

I've made my case.

[Juan Loco]

Can someone find the Alonso chalkboard from the game where he completed something like 117 passes?

I think it was that Bolton home game.

Oh and Juan..screw you for making me search out the Game podcast and listening to it. I nearly killed myself after 3 minutes.....

It's usually alright to be fair. Oli Kay is quite decent. Their problem is that every so often they bring in Chelsea Cascarino who is just painful. ... Cockney and Irish... never had a fucking chance, did he?

Hehey I did the same exact foot stamping on the "Squad/Formations" thread last night mate. Great minds! If we signed him it would really ramp things up a notch.

Or three.

The guy is no Messi but when it comes to the bracket under the truly world class there isn't a better fit for this particularly glass slipper. 28 he may be but the guy is so unreliant on a turn of pace that I think he's got a good 5 years left in him at the top - look at Nedved. He's just got the touch, the movement and the natural will to work - not to mention the goalscoring.

Personally I think he still has another level left to hit. He's never really played in a side at Atleti or Espanyol who dominate the midfield and control 60% of possession. As a result he probably sees less of the ball than he would at a top club like say... oh.. I dunno.... Liverpool.

The thought of him running off his marker into the space for Xabi Alonso - not Maniche/Raul Garcia or any number of other 'good' but not top draw midfielders - to pick out makes me salvate.

Just. Get. It. Done.

I've got it on my ipod but I haven't listened to it yet precisely because I was expecting it to be a pain in the rear end... worth a listen?

It's not the best but there are worse ways of spending half an hour. Do what I do - whack it on in the background as you browse RAWK. You'll soon tune-in to the points you want to and ignore the rest.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

Nobody complained about him not getting forward after Newcastle because he got forward.

But, as my initial chalkboard showed, he got forward far more against Wigan than he did against Newcastle.  So why the ourage after the Wigan game?

[hassinator]

[meerkat]
Simples.
[/meerkat]

He has become THE scapegoat.  Those who are not inclined to think for themselves just adopt the common opinion.  It's Lucas' fault.

It's hard not to jump on the bandwagon carrying the knowledge-less-ness.  I do it sometimes, until I decide to watch the game again to form my own analysis, because during matches your view can be tainted by emotion.  When you watch the match again you will find it difficult to find fault in LL's game.

He's not perfect, not by a long shot, but he deserves better support than he is getting atm.  You have got posters sticking up for Robbie Keane as if he were King Kenny but the masses tend to ignore LL's fantastic attitude towards team play.  He sees the bigger picture and the boy knows how to play.  With a bit of support who knows what he could achieve.

and that, of course, is the key ingredient.  just how tough is lucas with all he's had to put up with? 

if only keane had the same cojones

[Degs]

But, as my initial chalkboard showed, he got forward far more against Wigan than he did against Newcastle.  So why the ourage after the Wigan game?

I think most people thought he had a good game first half but a common gripe about Lucas is that he doesn't do anything when he has the ball, a short pass here, there, backwards, to the side.

Here's the 1st half vs. 2nd against Wigan

<a href="http://www.guardianchalkboards.com/guardianchalkboards_embed.swf?chalkBoardID=829u8Ox2v33uI276T5Zd" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.guardianchalkboards.com/guardianchalkboards_embed.swf?chalkBoardID=829u8Ox2v33uI276T5Zd</a>

In the 2nd half there's only one ball to Gerrard, now we know Gerrard came off but that was near enough the end of the match.
In the 1st half there was 4.

What irked alot of people that day was when we needed somebody to get forward and pass the ball forward from the middle, in the way Alonso does, Lucas wasn't it, he was passing it too short and too laterally, at least one of those arrows should have ended in the box, successful or not.

He got stick because he's not Alonso, and because he didn't bring what Alonso brings.
The same way Keane was no Torres.
He did have a good game first half but for me it petered out in the 2nd and ultimately he did what he does best, gave away a foul.

By the way I think these things are fucked, it says above that Lucas successfully passed it to Mido and Paul Sharner.

If you check out Alonso's passing from yesterday you see Lucas cannot fill in as the deep lying playmaker because his range of passing isn't long enough to bring the front line into the game.

[Juan Loco]

I think using the chalk board over-simplifies it somewhat. It doesn't show how against Newcastle he played one of the passes of the season for Gerrard, then himself went on a run down the right and played the ball into Kuyt's (?) path to lay a goal on a plate if not for an offside call.

It doesn't show how against Wigan he had a good 15 yards to run in to, right down the middle of the goal, and how it took him 2/3 touches plus a crowd baying for blood for him to have a timid effort. In that situation a Gerrard or an Alonso would have taken one touch to get the ball out of their feet and rifled a shot towards goal. If it's saved or it goes wide then fair enough, you can't help that and at least you've done the right thing. Piddling on the ball before striking a tame shot wide though? Nah. Not good enough.


My problem with Lucas is two-fold. The same two problems it has been for god knows how long now:

1) The lack of responsibilty on his part to get out of his comfort zone. The crowd and moaning and groaning anyway - at least make sure they're doing it because you're attempting a pass to cut open the defence or a shot on goal. He's got the crowd against him precisely because of his 'safe' play - reverting to it to get him out of that situation isn't going to help.

Y'know, fair play, he has started trying the difficult passes more often, but once a match isn't going to suffice. He played one to Babel in the first half against Wigan and from then on it was kind of like "Oh well, job done, just keep it safe from now on".


2) Playing him in the '2' with Mascherano. Stop it, please just stop it. Having him picking up the ball from the defence just encourages the lad to play safe passes.

Said for a while now and expanded upon it elsewhere but I think he needs to be playing in the '2' at Anfield alongside Xabi Alonso. Get him ahead of the ball and have him playing as kind of the ".5" between Gerrard and Alonso.

Get him in and around the box alongside Gerrard - they link up pretty well and can play through teams.
Get him as the one who can make the extra body in the box when the ball is worked wide.

He should be starting in the centre alongside Alonso but then moving forward from there. Start him too far forward and teams will pick him up immediately - and unlike Gerrard he doesn't have the gifts or ability to deal with it. Get him ghosting forward from the centre like Fabregas and Scholes do - that's the style of player he is to me. Maybe not the class but that style.

[royhendo]

This is brilliant stuff. Gonna get some popcorn to go with the Curly Wurly. Top stuff VDM and Degs, cheers!

[Degs]

I think using the chalk board over-simplifies it somewhat. It doesn't show how against Newcastle he played one of the passes of the season for Gerrard, then himself went on a run down the right and played the ball into Kuyt's (?) path to lay a goal on a plate if not for an offside call.

Agreed, his best attribute is his intelligent running off the ball, and it's not shown here, unfortunately for me I feel it's wasted playing so deep.

We don't have pace on the break so one of his clever runs would do us the world of good.

[Hank Scorpio]

Degs,

I agree with much of your analysis.  My post above wasn't aimed at you but at the 'Lucas is crap' brigade.

The post below is something I wrote a couple months ago and still somes up my feelings about Lucas.

Re: Lucas

I think, for all his talent and footballing brain, we need to start seeing some real progress from him during the course of this season.

I am a fan but he has had a quiet and, dare I say, unspectacular 15 months at the club.  He has had some good games, for example Newcastle away, Inter Milan home and away and his impact as a sub in the Goodison derby last season.  I just think, given his talent, we should be expecting a little more in the near future.

Look at when Alonso signed for us.  That game against Norwich in September '04, he really announced himself.  He didn't just have a good game, like Lucas' 4 or 5 over the past year or so, he produced a masterclass.  After that match, we all knew we had a talented individual on our hands; a real 'player'.  From that point and in the 04-05 season in particular, he never looked back.

We need to see Lucas making his impact on games.  Alonso was 22 at the time (almost 23) and Lucas is 22 in January.  I think the Fabregas comparisons are very good.  Lucas can no doubt emulate the little Spaniard but I think he is in danger of having his talent suffocated and dead to the world.

Lucas needs to step up.  For me, he is nearing the end of his 'settling in' period.  He needs to make the impact that his talent warrants.

[Degs]

Degs,

I agree with much of your analysis.  My post above wasn't aimed at you but at the 'Lucas is crap' brigade that I decided against.

The post below is something I wrote a couple months ago and still somes up my feelings about Lucas.

I wrote one similar to that a few pages back and had a big post I was going to do in the main board about Lucas vs. Lucas Pezzini Leiva from Gremio.

He's not crap but while he's played in Alonso's position he'll look it, especially giving away the fouls.

It's Rafa's fault but hopefully he can adapt him, as it is now though when I see his name on the teamsheet my heart drops, simply because I know he's playing deep and is more likely than not to do nothing in the game.

[Hank Scorpio]

Have to say I agree that he should definitely be used further forward.  However, when he plays, it is part of the '2' in midfield.  That '2' are hardly ever more than 10 yards away from each other.  They hardly ever leave their sentry position in front of the defence, even when we have possession.  It is the way we set up and it is one of my major gripes.

It would be great to see Lucas as part of that '2' in order to provide fluidity.  A 10-15 yard jog, here and there, safe in the knowledge that the ball will arrive (from Alonso) and he can find the necessary space to exploit the opposition defence.  He is so restricted, as we are as a team, when playing as part of that '2'.

I think the way we set up is a lot to do with the ability (or lack of it) of our defenders to play the ball out from the back.

[Degs]

Have to say I agree that he should definitely be used further forward.  However, when he plays, it is part of the '2' in midfield.  That '2' are hardly ever more than 10 yards away from each other.  They hardly ever leave their sentry position in front of the defence, even when we have possession.  It is the way we set up and it is one of my major gripes.

Or as I've labelled it the "Rafa Zone" or "Rafa Rectangle".

Xabi broke forward alot more at the weekend though, hopefully  sign of things to come (although he did the same at Chelsea away)

[abhred]

Completely agree that Lucas should be played as a box to box midfielder. When he plays with Mascherano, he has to drop deep to collect the ball, as Masch plays further forward, and doesn't do that.

Having Xabi as a deep lying playmaker, him as a box to box player, or as a link player, and Gerrard as the attacking midfielder. On paper, that's absolutely devastating.

Lucas can do what he does best. He can play further forward, and doesn't need to attempt the long range passes. He gets the chance to link up with Gerrard which he does pretty well, gets the chance to play his '5 yard pass and move' game with Gerrard, Torres and the wide players, further up the pitch, which we need to break down defenses, gets the chance to ghost into the box (and his off the ball movement is brilliant), and gets the chance to play through balls behind the defense, which he does pretty well. And he can give away his cynical fouls higher up the pitch, so that it doesn't hurt us.

It's the perfect position for him. Against teams that park the defense, my team would

Reina

Arbeloa   Skrtel   Agger   Dossena

Xabi    Lucas

Yossi  Gerrard   Riera

Torres

That, for my money, is our best team at Anfield against most teams, and the players compliment each other perfectly.

You get Agger and Skrtel, which gives us pace to keep a high lines, as well as a threat from the back in Agger. Xabi plays as the playmaker, and you can see Yossi, Gerrard, Lucas and Riera all playing one touch pass and move. Torres as the finisher. You have Lucas to ghost into the box, when Gerrard goes out wide, and you can get Lucas and Gerrard into the box, when Dossena or Arby cross, as well as either Yossi or Riera.

Just wish we tried this once.

[royhendo]

The Brazilian take is apparently that "The Goat" needs to take more responsibility in the build up... but the consensus here is that Rafa's restraining remit renders Rucas runs redundant?

[Hank Scorpio]

I think just pairing Skrtel - Agger together would be an offensive move.

It would push us 10 yards further up the pitch not just because of the added pace but the ability of Agger to find players accurately further up the pitch.  It will mean Alonso/Mascherano/Lucas would be receiving the ball inside the opponents half instead of inside our own half.

Of course, by omitting Carragher/Hyypia we would be losing years of experience from the defence.

[Juan Loco]

Of course, by omitting Carragher/Hyypia we would be losing years of experience from the defence.

What experience are they bringing to the team when we play Fulham at home?

I can understand the experience arguement for the top games. I agree with the need for a bit more nous against a Van Persie or an Eto'o or whatever. But really, Zamora/Bellamy/Fuller at home - where's the need for that experience?

We're playing against shite and yet treating them like they're Barcelona away.

I dunno, the experience thing seems to be a bit of a continual cop-out. Of course they've got the edge on experience - the other guys aren't playing together to get the experience.

"We can't play without Carragher/Hyypia - Skrtel and Agger don't have the experience"
"Why not?"
"Because they've never played together"
"... and how would they gain that experience"
".... by playing togeth- ... oh."

It's all a bit ridiculous really. Skrtel and Agger have played 10 minutes together in a year at the club. I know there's injuries and what not, but really, 10 minutes? That's ridiculous.

[Hank Scorpio]

Agree JL but I have not won La Liga's and CL's.  Benitez obviously feels he cannot pair them together as yet.  He has had plenty of opportunities to do so.  I wish that he would just do it.  In the same manner that he took off Mascherano for Babel against Chelsea.  That was a signal.

[royhendo]

The thing is, they have to gain the experience while Carragher and Hyppia are still around to give them a breather don't they?

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

Did you see the points per game stats that JP produced Hank?  I think they are earlier in this thread.  They kind of suggest that when we are playing at home Agger should be the first name down on the team sheet.

[BazC]

Interesting stuff with these chalkboards- look forward to playing around with them and seeing how others will use them.

On Agger and Skrtel; I'd like to see this pairing but it is going to be risky and needs to be done with caution. The lack of experience is an issue in my opinion, but that doesn't mean the need for them to gain that experience should be placed above all. It needs to be done right. We're in a title challenge now and not really in the place to allow a significant change like a Skrtel and Agger CB pairing- it could end up costing us our title challenge.

They do need the experience, and they are the future CB pairing, but it's a bit of a weird one I think and not as straightforward as just sticking them both in there to allow them to develop the understanding. I think Rafa believes it'd be too risky for now- he had the perfect chance to have Skrtel and Agger as the CB pairing for a few games when Arbeloa was out- Carra was covering for Arbeloa as RB and that meant there would at least be an experienced defender on the pitch for us who could lead the 2 relatively inexperienced ones. But it didn't happen- instead, Hyypia came in.

Perhaps Rafa could risk it against the team we know are going to park the bus- as they naturally offer less of an attacking threat for us. I wonder where the next team like that will come from for us- we've played Stoke both times now- it would have been the perfect type of game to stick both Skrtel and Agger in... but of course they've both had recent injury troubles etc.

[abhred]

It's all a bit ridiculous really. Skrtel and Agger have played 10 minutes together in a year at the club. I know there's injuries and what not, but really, 10 minutes? That's ridiculous.

10 mins? Fuck, I thought they'd never actually played together.

[the_prodigal_s0n]

10 mins? Fuck, I thought they'd never actually played together.

It was in preseason. I'm hoping they get a go soon though. The thought of them starting together (along with Xabi) is making me salivate right now...

[Juan Loco]

It was in preseason. I'm hoping they get a go soon though. The thought of them starting together (along with Xabi) is making me salivate right now...

Actually it was against Newcastle when we were 5-1.

Maybe there was 10 minutes in pre-season as well (though it could only have been in the Tranmere game). I've obviously not given Rafa enough credit - he's given them nearly half of a half together!

I know it can't have been easy for him to field them together. They've both had injuries and what not, but really, if we are talking about the partnership we are going to be relying on probably within the next season the way Carragher's going, you'd think that they'd have played a game or two together - even with all that's at risk.

Why not Stoke at home? Why not give them the 2nd half when it was obvious that not only did Stoke have no intention of attacking but were sitting off anyone with the ball until they were within 20 odd yards of goal. There was no pressure on the ball and Carragher and Skrtel had oceans to carry it in to... You'd have thought Agger would be in his element there...

There's been plenty of opportunities even with all the problems but they've never once been on the pitch in a competitive enviroment. It's a bit ridiculous isn't it? Kind of suggests to me that he doesn't view them as a long-term partnership.



... He'll probably start both against Everton now that I've said that.

[Degs]

I hate sticking the boot in but tell me lads if even I can see it then why can't he?

As it is now Lucas gets slaughtered from all sides, myself included, for playing as a centre mid.  He is the worst tackler in the entire squad, barring probably Benayoun, and he's in the position where he has to make the most tackles. Case in point again tonight gives away a penalty.
If there is a stat for minutes on pitch compared to fouls conceeded I'd like to see Lucas'.  Then show it to Rafa.

When we play 2 holding midfielders you need somebody who can make up the distance between the deep lines of the 4 and the 2 to the forward lines of the 3 and the 1.  Xabi can do it, Stevie can do it, Lucas and Mascherano can't and yet they're persisted with off the top of my head Fulham at home, Stoke away and Wigan away all saw nothing coming from the middle.  Our goal tonight relied on the defensive man in Mascherano getting forward and that's an anomaly rather than the rule.

I would agree if Lucas hadn't been doing this consistently, but he gives away fouls like nobody else every single game, he cannot win the ball.[/]

He's stubbornly been persisted with rather than break the shape and style of the team.

It's not as if Lucas is unknown, or starting out in a new position, every time he plays he concedes fouls, it was only logical one was going to be in the box soon enough.

Lucas has conceded 24 fouls in only 7 games in the league.
Xabi Alonso has played 17 matches, 10 more, and has conceded 2 fewer fouls at 22.
Mascherano has played 13 matches, our main defensive midfielder, 6 matches more than Lucas and has only conceded 21 fouls, again 3 fewer than Lucas.

To shrug off the foul last night as one of those things, as oh well that's Lucas' fault and not Rafa's is wrong.
Lucas has been doing this since he got here and yet he's put in the position that needs a good tackler.

Add to that he can't hit the ball long enough to warrant 2 holding midfielders (one being used to link the play between back and front) and you should be left scratching your head as to why he persist with the shape and persists with players who can't work within that shape.

Rafa got it wrong, he's not above criticism and he's not above getting things wrong.

Lucas should not be in a position where he has to be consistently making tackles.
Imagine Benayoun playing defensive midfield, it wouldn't work. So why persist with somebody who cannot tackle, who never came with a reputation of tackling and even played in the South American Champions League Final as an attacking midfielder, as a defensive midfielder?
Would we have played Luis Garcia there? Would we balls.

He hasn't been THE scapegoat, he's been playing out of position.
I don't care if he played there for Gremio, and Brazil, even though if you look back it looks as though he was further forward than he is now, and I'm sorry but t's because of this:

He gives away too many fouls to be playing in the centre of midfield.

As I've highlighted before, despite playing only 7 games he has more fouls than any of our other central midfielders, including Mascherano.

Every red dot is a free kick conceded.

[chalkboard snipped]

He's not crap but while he's played in Alonso's position he'll look it, especially giving away the fouls.

[royhendo]

I was late home from work so was listening to it on the radio and only saw the last 25 on Setanta (I hear Lucas wasn't the only one who dropped a bollock by the way - ITV cut to the ads  for the goal).

It's tempting to try and make excuses, both specifically for Lucas and for the game in general, but there's no room for excuses in a "level 3" analysis.

Lucas, from what I could hear, made several daft challenges other than the ones he saw yellow for, and gave away several set piece opportunities to them as a result.

Then, excuses aside, we conceded a daft goal resulting from poor concentration at the death. Yes it was a great little finish and slightly deflected, but yet again the ball should never have reached him.

That again proved we're a notch or two below a level 3 tag because with that tag the mentality has to be flawless, and the concentraion has to be perfect. The benchmark for me is England rugby 2003. They beat New Zealand in a howling gale with two men sent off from their pack. That's the pinnacle. We're headed that way I think but again it's symptomatic of our being short of the quality in depth we need. You play what's in front of you, you find your solution (so far so good til 3 minutes to go) and you execute. We aren't executing.

Thought Babel did really well he came on by the way. Oh, and our attacking set pieces are going to cost me my TV cos I'm going to throw something heavy at it one of these days.

[BazC]

I seriously don't like that Lucas is getting a lot of the blame. He's always been bad at tackling yet is constantly played in the position where he has to do a significant amount of it. Why does Rafa do this?! What's more- Lucas will surely be Gerrard's direct replacement- or is planned to be... why is he not, then, playing in attack as Gerrard should be?

No, I'm a bit frustrated, but it's not with Lucas- Rafa's been watching this player for ages every day and still hasn't sorted him out- either his tackling needs to improve (if anything- it's getting worse, in the last week or so, he's cost us 2 vital points and a 5th round FA Cup place) or his position needs to.

Like I've been saying a lot- I think this squad of players is good enough to win this league. We've had such a squad for the last 2 seasons- Lucas included.

[redmeanmachine]

I think just pairing Skrtel - Agger together would be an offensive move.

It would push us 10 yards further up the pitch not just because of the added pace but the ability of Agger to find players accurately further up the pitch.  It will mean Alonso/Mascherano/Lucas would be receiving the ball inside the opponents half instead of inside our own half.

Of course, by omitting Carragher/Hyypia we would be losing years of experience from the defence.

I agree with HS. Carra is not showing the form that he deserved to be in the first eleven. He has been average at best for every matches this season.

In fact, if you analyse the match again in detail, look at his positioning before Gosling scored the goal. (See the video link below]
http://www.goonersguide.com/read_news_item.php?newsID=473

He was standing behind Arbeloa shadowing him? What is he doing? I thought we zonal mark, he should have stand at his zone, at least he can block the angle.

I hope Rafa spot this in the match post-mortem and give a chance for Agger-Skrtel partnership to blossom. This not a knee-jerked reaction, but Carra seems to be undroppable no matter how he performs.

[royhendo]

I seriously don't like that Lucas is getting a lot of the blame. He's always been bad at tackling yet is constantly played in the position where he has to do a significant amount of it. Why does Rafa do this?! What's more- Lucas will surely be Gerrard's direct replacement- or is planned to be... why is he not, then, playing in attack as Gerrard should be?

Hopefully we can leave aspects of blame for the main board and retain some icy calm in our analysis Baz. I do think that, as a player with pretentions to being a top level box-to-box midfielder, he needs to learn better technique and make better decisions in close contact.

The fact is Lucas de facto got a red last night. The referee might have been out of order, and that's bad luck etc etc, but if we're talking about level 3, then the precedent for me is a very high level. England rugby again - they used to do regular training sessions where they'd bring in a top level referee and task him with being 'difficult'. The players would then have to learn to react and adapt. The drill, interestingly, involved pausing the session whenever someone gave away a stupid penalty (the equivalent of giving away a needless free in football), and Woodward, the captain, or the relevant team leader would address the player and say "You've just cost us the world cup".

That kind of coaching leads a player not to make challenges that give a 'difficult' referee a chance. They commented quite late on in the first half last night that Liverpool had barely conceded a dangerous free kick and you thought 'great stuff, that's the discipline we need', but then, sure as fate, we start giving them away. Everton kept playing them short for some reason, which seemed mad given the trouble they'd caused us in the last two games.

No, I'm a bit frustrated, but it's not with Lucas- Rafa's been watching this player for ages every day and still hasn't sorted him out- either his tackling needs to improve (if anything- it's getting worse, in the last week or so, he's cost us 2 vital points and a 5th round FA Cup place) or his position needs to.

Like I've been saying a lot- I think this squad of players is good enough to win this league. We've had such a squad for the last 2 seasons- Lucas included.

This is the thing, it's hard to resist turning the guns on Rafa at this stage. I don't agree about the squad though. I still think we're a few notches short of our rivals Baz. This is the thing - we wanted more evidence of genuine 'level 3' stuff this year, but we're not at or even near that level right now - not on any front - and the foundations needed to support that level are being actively undermined.

[Hank Scorpio]

Oh, and our attacking set pieces are going to cost me my TV cos I'm going to throw something heavy at it one of these days.

You haven't already?  Then you are a very patient man, my friend.

to be honest, the result yesterday was bad but as Yoda told me last night 'hurt it does, blessing in disguise it is'.  I think what is more frustrating is the level of football.  We were awful last night because Everton, rightly so, put all the emphasis on our centre backs to play the ball out.  The area where Alonso operates was filled with two Everton players at all times, no more than 10-15 yards away from each other.  Alonso was suffocated and it was up to our defenders to play the ball out of defence.

It was really difficult watching Skrtel and Carragher in possession.  They were slow with the ball, had no trust in their team mates ahead of them and often the result was a boot up the field.  When the emphasis shifts to our defenders to provide quality in possession we play poor football.

[royhendo]

You haven't already?  Then you are a very patient man, my friend.

I've taken to watching games like this...



It's the best way - saves staining on the upholstery. The scotchguard only takes you so far.

to be honest, the result yesterday was bad but as Yoda told me last night 'hurt it does, blessing in disguise it is'.

I think what is more frustrating is the level of football.  We were awful last night because Everton, rightly so, put all the emphasis on our centre backs to play the ball out.  The area where Alonso operates was filled with two Everton players at all times, no more than 10-15 yards away from each other.  Alonso was suffocated and it was up to our defenders to play the ball out of defence.

It was really difficult watching Skrtel and Carragher in possession. They were slow with the ball, had no trust in their team mates ahead of them and often the result was a boot up the field.  When the emphasis shifts to our defenders to provide quality in possession we play poor football.

I can't see how it was a blessing though Hank - we should be through to the next round. It's not just the quality of the football that's holding us back at the moment, it's the decision making of both the players and Rafa himself.

It's impossible to always step back from things and see them from the God's eye view (progress from fearing we'd struggle to get a result at Goodison five years ago to a stage where you find yourself fucked off that we never managed a result with ten men and our two talismans off the pitch). Expectation levels are very high and probably higher for us even than most on the main boards - just without the general knee jerking.

It'll turn round again and we'll find a groove. I think, regardless of what you read, that selling Keane was a good decision. The worry is that we do something stupid in the short term, you know?

[BazC]

Hopefully we can leave aspects of blame for the main board and retain some icy calm in our analysis Baz. I do think that, as a player with pretentions to being a top level box-to-box midfielder, he needs to learn better technique and make better decisions in close contact.

The fact is Lucas de facto got a red last night. The referee might have been out of order, and that's bad luck etc etc, but if we're talking about level 3, then the precedent for me is a very high level. England rugby again - they used to do regular training sessions where they'd bring in a top level referee and task him with being 'difficult'. The players would then have to learn to react and adapt. The drill, interestingly, involved pausing the session whenever someone gave away a stupid penalty (the equivalent of giving away a needless free in football), and Woodward, the captain, or the relevant team leader would address the player and say "You've just cost us the world cup".

That kind of coaching leads a player not to make challenges that give a 'difficult' referee a chance. They commented quite late on in the first half last night that Liverpool had barely conceded a dangerous free kick and you thought 'great stuff, that's the discipline we need', but then, sure as fate, we start giving them away. Everton kept playing them short for some reason, which seemed mad given the trouble they'd caused us in the last two games.

This is the thing, it's hard to resist turning the guns on Rafa at this stage. I don't agree about the squad though. I still think we're a few notches short of our rivals Baz. This is the thing - we wanted more evidence of genuine 'level 3' stuff this year, but we're not at or even near that level right now - not on any front - and the foundations needed to support that level are being actively undermined.

I don't know really. I used to think Lucas playing in the holding role was wasting his attacking talent. Now I think it's akin to putting Torres on the left wing, or Xabi up front.

What I think Rafa's doing is sticking Lucas there to 'complete' him as a player. As he did with Babel by sticking him out wide (as Wenger did with Henry in fact). I don't agree with it though. Firstly, because we're in a title challenge here, and having Lucas make mistakes (which not only he definitely will do, but he needs to do) in such a critical position is not productive towards that title. Secondly, I think it would be far better for his progress as an attacking force if he was actually played in a primarily attacking position.

I've been criticising Rafa and the team (in my opinion, fairly- instead of the 'SACK RAFA!' shite you get on the main board) for at least a year now- as I think we've had the players to at seriously push for the title. I support him fully, but I do think he makes mistakes- I think that Reading match away (when we lost 3-1) was the point where I started seriously thinking about Rafa's mentality and if it was conducive to us winning the league. Playing Lucas in the team so much in that position when we're in a title challenge is one of those mistakes in my opinion. Sure, yesterday was the perfect game for it- FA Cup, gives other CMs a rest (or in the case of Masch, saves them from a possible suspension), and he did well in attack. But I'm talking more about that Wigan game, and others in the league, where his bad tackling has played a part in costing us points...

Regarding the squad comparisons... I think we do have the quality. I suppose it's about relative strengths- we're very strong in talent in midfield and defence. Gerrard and Torres, in attack, are 2 of the very, very best players in the world let alone the league. I do think we have *enough* quality (albeit not top drawer players) out wide too- Babel, Riera, Yossi and Kuyt can all do a job in supporting the main 2 attackers. I think it's an issue of team mentality- the players and the management/coaches, I don't think, have shown they have it in them to sustain a level of consistency in the way Chelsea and Man U have in the last 3-4 years. That's the difference I think.

[Hank Scorpio]

I can't see how it was a blessing though Hank - we should be through to the next round.

A blessing purely because I know fitness and recovery play a huge part in Benitez's team selection.  And with less matches to worry about he won't lose focus on the big prizes that are the Premier League and CL.

To be honest, if we won the FA Cup and lost the league by 3 points, I would be pissed, because I would know that Benitez would have compensated in some matches.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

Degs - I think you rather missed the point of my initial Lucas chalkboard post, as did whoever said these chalkboards don't give you the full picture.

Of course they don't. They give a tiny snapshot of one element of play.  My Lucas chalkboard was not an attempt to show that he is a good player or otherwise, it certainly was not intended to demonstrate that he could tackle.

It was merely to counter an argument that was prevalent both at the Wigan match and in the post match discussion of that game. The argument being that we were too negative and that key to that negativity was the withdrawn holding roles of Mascherano and Lucas.

I think that chalkboard neatly showed that Lucas actually played in a far more advanced role against Wigan than he did in the 5-1 demolition of Newcastle.  However that is ALL that it showed.

[Juan Loco]

Is this thread running painfully slow for anyone else? It's just this thread, whenever I come on it my internet explorer seems to slow down and freeze constantly. The rest of RAWK, as far as I can tell, is fine. Any reason why that would be?

[Hank Scorpio]

Is this thread running painfully slow for anyone else? It's just this thread, whenever I come on it my internet explorer seems to slow down and freeze constantly. The rest of RAWK, as far as I can tell, is fine. Any reason why that would be?

I think it's due to the Chalkboards loading up mate.

[b_joseph]

The funny thing about last night is that in the first 20 minutes...the most disliked player in this thread was having a great start to the game. His best start to a game in months......That man is Dirk Kuyt. Poor fella.

It was quite upsetting how we completely forgot to pass the ball when we went down to 10 men. I've always though that that is a true indication of how comfortable a team is with a ball at its feet.
How does it cope with being a man down? Great footballing teams will just retain the ball like its nobodies business. The lesser footballing teams will play hit and hope with 9 players behind the ball at all times.

Games like last night make it really hard to get on Carra...His defensively display was awesome and when he plays like that, it make sup for his techincal problems.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

I think it's due to the Chalkboards loading up mate.

I think you're right.  I've snipped them out of Degs' post where he quoted himself. 

[Hank Scorpio]

Games like last night make it really hard to get on Carra...His defensively display was awesome and when he plays like that, it make sup for his techincal problems.

After we went down to 10 men, that was Carragher's game.  He revels in that situation.  Before that, when he was asked to play with the ball at his feet, he looked like half the player. 

Everton were pressing us in our own half, which meant it was an ideal opportunity to pass around them.  However, lack of ability/trust/mentality didn't allow us to do this.

[Degs]

I've been saying Lucas is an attacking mid for donkeys.
Same as Babel being a centre forward, looked alot more comfortable there last night.

[BazC]

The funny thing about last night is that in the first 20 minutes...the most disliked player in this thread was having a great start to the game. His best start to a game in months......That man is Dirk Kuyt. Poor fella.

It was quite upsetting how we completely forgot to pass the ball when we went down to 10 men. I've always though that that is a true indication of how comfortable a team is with a ball at its feet.
How does it cope with being a man down? Great footballing teams will just retain the ball like its nobodies business. The lesser footballing teams will play hit and hope with 9 players behind the ball at all times.

Games like last night make it really hard to get on Carra...His defensively display was awesome and when he plays like that, it make sup for his techincal problems.

When we went down to 10 we were clearly playing for penalties. 2 deep banks of 4 with Torres and then Babel playing up front in total isolation. We were never going to get that goal in those circumstances. I would have liked to have seen better ball retention, with the striker coming deeper to hold play up whilst players supported him. Instead it was all out defending and hoofs forward at any opportunity. Nearly worked- think it was about 2 minutes from the end when they scored...