Author Topic: Space exploration thread  (Read 153182 times)

Offline farawayred

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2240 on: July 22, 2019, 09:09:05 PM »
If one bothered to read non-western news sources it would have been obvious.

The three space powers of USA, China and Russia were meeting to agree on laws related to the weaponization of space, the Russians and Chinese were pushing for complete non-weaponization which most countries were behind but the Americans kept blocking it. India demonstrated it's anti-satellite tech in order to force it's way into the discussions which is what happened. Geopolitics 101.

Funny NASA condemned it but were nowhere to be seen when USA was bombing satellites and kicking of the militarization of space. Hypocrites!
What does NASA have to do with the militarization of space?
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Offline great power rising

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2241 on: July 22, 2019, 09:20:54 PM »
Their 'concern at space debris' was nowhere to be seen when the Americans were shooting down their own satellites not once but twice

Offline farawayred

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2242 on: July 22, 2019, 09:22:30 PM »
Their 'concern at space debris' was nowhere to be seen when the Americans were shooting down their own satellites not once but twice
My question was what does NASA have to do with this? The US military, yes, but NASA?
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Offline great power rising

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2243 on: July 22, 2019, 09:27:18 PM »
Erm, NASA condemned the Indian anti satellite test and was mute when the Americans were conducting their own tests. According to NASA it's a-ok when the yanks are doing it but god forbid anyone else look out for their own interests. Simple!

Offline farawayred

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2244 on: July 22, 2019, 09:55:55 PM »
Erm, NASA condemned the Indian anti satellite test and was mute when the Americans were conducting their own tests. According to NASA it's a-ok when the yanks are doing it but god forbid anyone else look out for their own interests. Simple!
I won't even bother answering, but you're well advised to read on the subject before making stupid uninformed comments. There is a long list of topics you can accuse the US in hypocrisy, maybe even NASA, but that ain't one of them. The US has had satellite destruction capability acquired without carrying a full test as did China and India. There is a way to not generate a shit-tons of debris. That's also how Mars landings are tested too when you can't test a process from start to end.
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Offline great power rising

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2245 on: July 22, 2019, 09:59:50 PM »
Right, Operation burnt frost and shooting down 193 never happened! Nothing to see here folks.

Offline farawayred

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2246 on: July 22, 2019, 10:02:12 PM »
Right, Operation burnt frost and shooting down 193 never happened! Nothing to see here folks.
It's one thing to destroy a faulty spy satellite with unparalleled technology on board, quite another to destroy a satellite just to demonstrate capability.
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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2247 on: July 22, 2019, 10:13:02 PM »
Right, Operation burnt frost and shooting down 193 never happened! Nothing to see here folks.

Yeah but the two are not comparable mate,different orbits & whatnot.
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Offline great power rising

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2248 on: July 22, 2019, 10:37:27 PM »
It's one thing to destroy a faulty spy satellite with unparalleled technology on board, quite another to destroy a satellite just to demonstrate capability.

The Americans are far superior at spinning the media and masking their true intentions I'll give them that. We have much to learn from them.

Quite interesting this 'faulty' satellite became a problem hot on the heels of the Chinese ASAT tests and unprecedented pressure for a space treaty. You'll believe what you want which is fine but as long as the Americans continue to weaoponize space we will make sure we are with them.

Back on topic, the Indian mission still needs to land which is the hardest part though the head of ISRO said this stage had no human input. Fingers crossed!!

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2249 on: July 22, 2019, 11:26:29 PM »
If one bothered to read non-western news sources it would have been obvious...

Bravo.

You seem to want to demonstrate that attempts at regional dick swinging aren't just confined to Governments.



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Offline farawayred

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2250 on: July 22, 2019, 11:44:08 PM »
The Americans are far superior at spinning the media and masking their true intentions I'll give them that. We have much to learn from them.

Quite interesting this 'faulty' satellite became a problem hot on the heels of the Chinese ASAT tests and unprecedented pressure for a space treaty. You'll believe what you want which is fine but as long as the Americans continue to weaoponize space we will make sure we are with them.

Are you one of the conspiracy theorists or just plain ignorant? The 'faulty' satellite became faulty in January 2008, a year after the Chinese test. Hence the timing. It has fallen 10km in a week and it could not return to orbit even though it had nearly full tanks. The lower a satellite falls, the more drag it experiences and, already being below 250km, it had only a couple of weeks before falling. What would you suggest should have been done? Taken a chance on and left alone to fall wherever you live? I wouldn't want that shit in my backyard, but maybe you don't mind that. The chance for human casualties was at ~5%, which doesn't seem huge, but no other satellite risk was ever close to single percent, so it was a big issue. Mind you, hydrazine was a large contributor to the action but I think, personally, that the risk of imaging technology surviving the crash and falling in the wrong hands had something to do with the decision too. Things like that had happened in the past.

Please read on a topic before you continue to perpetuate bullshit. To an uninformed person the destruction of the satellite was a demonstration of technology. But the US didn't gain anything from showing off a capability they had since the late 60s, early 70s. The only military benefit from the test was the demonstration of a more conventional rocket used in a anti-IBM-like scenario. That opened a new class of anti-IBM arsenal. So, while the satellite had to be destroyed, with which even the Russians agreed, it was done in an experimental way that did have military hues. It was in no way demonstrating to the Chinese that "hey, we have that capability too, let's talk about space". Which is exactly what the Chinese and Indian tests were. Moreover, the USA-193 orbit was below 250km, whereas China and India put debris right where all LEO satellites are, including the ISS orbit at 400km.

Here is a light reading for you at your fingertips:
https://thediplomat.com/2019/05/why-indias-asat-test-was-reckless/
Red is the debris, white is the ISS orbit. There is more data in the article.


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Offline farawayred

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2251 on: July 22, 2019, 11:45:14 PM »
Good luck to Chandrayaan-2! Smooth landing and roving, but don't break the lunar speed limit. ;)
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Offline great power rising

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2252 on: July 23, 2019, 10:58:12 AM »
"hey, we have that capability too, let's talk about space".

This is a very naive way of looking at things. The Iranians are on the verge of going nuclear. Are the Americans telling them to "talk about it" or are they doing anything possible to stop them from clearing that final hurdle?

Here is a light reading for you at your fingertips:
https://thediplomat.com/2019/05/why-indias-asat-test-was-reckless/
Red is the debris, white is the ISS orbit. There is more data in the article.


Yeah that 'space spatial expert' called a promotional video the DRDO put out to celebrate its achievements as 'propaganda'.  :butt

Sorry but that's going to be a no from me Jeff. Interesting to see none of these articles refer the ISRO guys who patiently explained why the test had a minimal chance of any long term impacts

Onwards and upwards to the manned mission in 2022 with our Russian brothers!!
« Last Edit: July 23, 2019, 11:02:06 AM by great power rising »

Offline ChaChaMooMoo

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2253 on: July 23, 2019, 03:13:33 PM »
To an uninformed person the destruction of the satellite was a demonstration of technology. But the US didn't gain anything from showing off a capability they had since the late 60s, early 70s. The only military benefit from the test was the demonstration of a more conventional rocket used in a anti-IBM-like scenario. That opened a new class of anti-IBM arsenal. So, while the satellite had to be destroyed, with which even the Russians agreed, it was done in an experimental way that did have military hues. It was in no way demonstrating to the Chinese that "hey, we have that capability too, let's talk about space". Which is exactly what the Chinese and Indian tests were. Moreover, the USA-193 orbit was below 250km, whereas China and India put debris right where all LEO satellites are, including the ISS orbit at 400km.

What USA did when they demonstrated that satellite destroying technology was show the world that a satellite could be destroyed from the face of earth. They might have used it to destroy a satellite that had to be removed. But it came with a not-so-subtle subtext. And thats important in this era of fraught geopolitics. Today it is a defunct satellite. Tomorrow it could be Russia's. Or China's. Or EU's.

So yes. USA didnt want anyone else to have that technology. Thats why they cried foul when Russians, China and India did it. And now there are 3 nations wanting a seat at the table to discuss how to best proceed with dealing with space waste and space debris with USA not wanting the table at all. Make what you will of it. And we know how moral high ground and USA always go hand in hand.

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Offline ChaChaMooMoo

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2254 on: July 23, 2019, 03:21:31 PM »
Also as a followup,

Quote
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/russia-puts-onus-us-for-early-outer-space-rules-after-indias-test/articleshow/68626644.cms

Russia puts onus on US for early outer space rules after India's test

Quote
https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/news/us-takes-note-of-indias-first-anti-missile-test/article26660703.ece

US adopts neutral stand on 'Mission Shakti', to continue space collaboration with India

Quote
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-india-satellite-usa/u-s-sees-india-space-debris-from-weapons-test-eventually-burning-up-idUSKCN1R91T0

U.S. sees India space debris from weapons test eventually burning up

Quote
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/us-studying-asat-advises-other-nations-against-similar-tests/articleshow/68625205.cms

US studying ASAT, advises other nations against similar tests

And an actual quote - My message would be: We all live in space, letís not make it a mess,Ē acting US Defence Secretary Patrick Shanahan told media persons during a visit to the US militaryís Southern Command on Wednesday. ďSpace should be a place where we can conduct business. Space is a place where people should have the freedom to operate.Ē
« Last Edit: July 23, 2019, 03:26:43 PM by ChaChaMooMoo »

Offline farawayred

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2255 on: July 23, 2019, 08:55:55 PM »
What USA did when they demonstrated that satellite destroying technology was show the world that a satellite could be destroyed from the face of earth. They might have used it to destroy a satellite that had to be removed. But it came with a not-so-subtle subtext. And thats important in this era of fraught geopolitics. Today it is a defunct satellite. Tomorrow it could be Russia's. Or China's. Or EU's.

So yes. USA didnt want anyone else to have that technology. Thats why they cried foul when Russians, China and India did it. And now there are 3 nations wanting a seat at the table to discuss how to best proceed with dealing with space waste and space debris with USA not wanting the table at all. Make what you will of it. And we know how moral high ground and USA always go hand in hand.

The best way to bring a sword fighter to the table by drawing out a bigger sword.
My objection to the bit in bold is that the US didn't need to "demonstrate" anything that was done many decades ago. Is every rocket launch a demonstration of capability? Yes and no, right? Yes, because you are showing to the world that you can do that, but no because you've shown convincingly before that you can do it. The event was spun by the medias on both sides as a demonstration or as a necessity to protect life. Choose whichever one to believe, neither covers the whole story.

But of course, the US want to have the biggest stick and so do Russia. And China and India want to join the club. It's the same with the nuclear weapons, it's an exclusive club that wields power. But during the cold war, the powers were balanced. Both Russia and the US had satellite destruction capabilities in the 70s. Much of it was revealed to the public in the early 80s. There was an excellent article in Scientific American, IIRC, from 1984, which compared the Russian and American capabilities (in the context of overall discussion on military satellite launch tactics). The American ones were targeting direct hit with precision targeting, the Russians one was based on proximate explosion (boom near the orbit). Both countries experimented with nuclear explosions in space. Which, from what we know now is completely idiotic (but this was at times when we were dealing with military doctrines that required soldiers to enter the zone of a nuclear explosion 24 hours after the blast). Overall, the US had more sophisticated and more accurate technology, the Russians had more robust and fool-proof technology. This was almost half a century ago! And there was no other player. Now we have France, the UK, China, India, Israel, and Iran who want to join the club. But the problem is that there is no balance anymore. France and the UK are not going to blow up a satellite, they don't need to (neither did the US in 2008). But China, India and Iran, or even North Korea if allowed, need to demonstrate this capability to be taken on par with the US and Russia.

As much as I hate Trump, he's got a point that these treaties need to be renegotiated. How, it's another topic. But the US and Russia can no longer keep the balance and the new players have no interest in keeping that balance. Scary times...
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Offline ChaChaMooMoo

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2256 on: July 24, 2019, 08:34:38 AM »


Funnily enough, I typed out an entire paragraph citing Nuclear energy as an example only to remove it after thinking it has no connection to my point. But what I see is both of us are on the same page and paragraph. Just probably different lines. :)

My point was, USA tested its first ASAT in 1959. It was launched at a test satellite that was flown at an altitude of 250kms. The missile came close by some 12 kms. It could've been nuclear armed and it could've been functional. But it didnt and the test was deemed only semi-successful. The Sputnik-1 was launched in 1957 by the USSR. Coincidence?

USA have been conducting ASAT tests regularly since. And with each test loop, they have been steadily improving. And after 1973, the projects that focussed on ASATs, took low priority. In 1982 a "leak" confirmed USSRs successful testing of a new high altitude missile interception system. Sort of like a counter ASAT. This kick started the ASAT program in the USA and 1984 and 1985 they tested various ASAT technologies and weapons. This program went into sleep in 1987 and in 89 was completely shit down when it was known that the Soviet Union would collapse because their last ever test took place in 1987. I think we are in agreement here.

China destroyed their weather satellite (orbiting at 900 something kms) in 2007 from a missile that they launched from earth. This was heavily criticised by the USA.
In 2008, they destroyed two satellites that they launched from a ship.

Quote
Concern over China's missile test
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6276543.stm
...
...
American Aviation Week and Space Technology said the move could have left "considerable space debris in an orbit used by many different satellites".

While the US may be unhappy about China's actions, the Washington administration has recently opposed international calls to end such tests.
...
...

For a country whose ASAT program went to sleep in 1987 (last ever missile launch happened in 1985) suddenly the issue of space debris and space arms became an issue. This is what I'm talking about. And hopefully you too. As you pointed out, this is not about showcasing this technology. This was about having a technology that nobody else has. This is like Apple suddenly crying fowl on Huawei's phone business saying they are contributing massively to e-waste. And now suddenly, Samsung wants in, Nokia wants in and LG wants in. Because this is exactly whats happening. And this is what I am talking about.

Moral policing is one thing. Forceful bullying is another thing. With the USA, in the last couple hundred years, it has never been about moral policing. Neither are any other country to be fair. Since we are focussing on USA here, I am forced to single out USA here.

But this is what Trump meant when he said space force. People were laughing at him. For once (and I need to wash my mouth with bonjella and xanax mixture) I agree with him. An oversight is necessary for essential checks and balances. Space is one domain where the consequences could be catastrophic. China has been successful in keeping India out of security council. So what better way to demand a seat at the table?!? But as you say, this is another topic.

Offline farawayred

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2257 on: July 24, 2019, 06:20:52 PM »
I think we are in a nearly full agreement. The issues are so complex that anyone can put any spin on the action. Of coarse the US is bullying other countries, but I expect any other country in the US shoes to do the same. We have 1000s of years worth of proof throughout the human history. All I'm saying is that it's to be expected. I think the US "moral policing" can be described in one president's words (Truman?): "speak softly and carry a big stick". :)
So much for morality...
 
But I think that people in general do not understand the concept of "Space Force" largely because it's spun by the media, and a lot of us grew with Star Wars. It's nothing of the kind, it's a line management reorganization, nothing more, but one with a flashy name. It is an exact analog to the establishment of the Air Force in 1947. Did we not have airplanes before? Have they not been used in wars, especially the just ended WWII? Planes were first used in the Balkan Wars by the Bulgarians in 1912 to drop bombs over Turkey by hand. But they had no "Air Force". Someone decided that its a good idea, other agreed, and they did it. But at some stage of the organization of an army, especially a big army, it becomes apparent that activity management, gathering information, information analysis, conveying orders, etc., can be better organized by the formation of a new department. It's too much for the Air Force, and it's getting way out of their charter. Ergo, Space Force. It makes absolute perfect sense to me.

There is so much going on in space... The Russians and Americans have spy satellites that listen in on each others communications, trying signal jamming technologies all the time, China jams our SMAP satellite every time it flies over regardless that it doesn't have absolutely anything that can even remotely be linked to spying. Unless they don't want the world to know where their water reservoirs are. A powerful radar beam can blind a radar satellite through the tiniest of cracks in the shielding. Instead of worrying about natural sources of background, the radar that measures global moisture had to be designed per warfare standards. That's such a waste of money... But if it hadn't been done, the mission was over on the first pass over China.

So yeah, I'm all for a new space treaty, one that will include ALL countries whether they have capabilities or not. Not an exclusive club that only works in a balance scenario of two super powers. But that ain't gonna happen in my lifetime...

EDIT: It seems that other nations are thinking along the same lines:
France details military 'command of space' plans to protect satellites
https://www.dw.com/en/france-details-military-command-of-space-plans-to-protect-satellites/a-49747318
« Last Edit: July 26, 2019, 06:23:06 AM by farawayred »
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Offline gazzalfc

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2258 on: July 26, 2019, 09:06:11 AM »
Space X launched another successful mission last night. Delivering new supplies and equipment to the International Space Station. Another beautiful Falcon 9 1st stage rocket recovery landing as well (watching those rockets land never gets old). Their 44th successful landing of the rocket.


Offline Roady

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2259 on: Yesterday at 01:08:27 PM »
Going to stick this in here as canít find a thread for it. Looking for advice now than anything. Got a decent extra wage this month and as a bonus Iíd really like to buy myself a telescope. I live in Spain so ideally off amazon. Iíd quite like one easy to use but I donít want a completely basic one. Iíd love to able to connect my phone and take photos etc if thatís possible? Iím completely new to it all. Iíve never really had the time to do this before but I love gazing up at he stars etc over here form the beach or m balcony. Iíd love any advice anyone could give me. I donít want to spend a fortune. Possibly a couple of hundred quid if thatís feasible. Or if Iím gunna get bollocks from that then say so. My mrs kids would love it too. If itís the wrong thread mods apologies
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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2260 on: Yesterday at 02:09:21 PM »
Can't help you Roady but you should find what you're looking for on one of these.Just click the telescope on the Sky At Night link to get the review.

https://www.skyatnightmagazine.com/reviews/telescopes/

And this one from Space.com

https://www.space.com/15693-telescopes-beginners-telescope-reviews-buying-guide.html
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