Topic: 1st june - the alleged hicks veto has expired hasn't it?

[Live4pool]

Everyone that gives out info must be prepared to take some shit. You can't expect everyone to believe it. If he isn't prepared to do that on a forum with over 20k members then don't give out any info.

It's as simple as that.

People have the right to say what they think about it as long as they don't make it personal.

Yes but then on in it just turns into a bicker-fest and people arguing over someones credentials or critiscising their integrity rather than discussing what they actually say and if they dont believe it they should come up with better arguments than 'your grammar isn't what i'd expect it to be' or because they havent disclosed personal details about their jobs.

[OneKop]

Who said theyd want to sell anyway, if they get the stadium built then they would have a asset worth possibly 700-800 million against which they could secure other loans for other investments. This is what i reckon hicks wants, longterm ownership to sort the merchandising and stadium out so that we become the biggest asset in his portfolio. This is what i think he is after and worst case scenario for me. And for all the 'fans' who were bitching about protests, nice one.

How would they have a asset worth £700-£800mill? it is only worth that much if someone is willing to buy it at that price.

What they would have is:  A bloody big DEBT of £700-£800mill  {at least} and interest payments of £70-£80mill a year of which they would struggle to pay.

[dmn]

If UEFA change the rules for CL qualification like they were thinking of doing by making qualification the top 3 PL placed and FA cup winners then we are seriously fucked!

CL qualification is already changed for next summer:
top 3 in PL are qualified for the group stages
4:th place in PL has to play qualification round - but will face considerably tougher opposition than this summer.

[The Flying Pig]

I think a point many are missing here is that if G+H do manage to borrow enough money to build the stadium and then try to sell the club for upwards £800 million,how many organisations in the entire world could afford it?

This is a crazily risky stategy,especialy if they piss off DIC (or whoever) so much that they walk away.

Such a plan would be highly likely to ruin both Hicks and Gillett and destroy their only asset--the club.

[OneKop]

I think a point many are missing here is that if G+H do manage to borrow enough money to build the stadium and then try to sell the club for upwards £800 million,how many organisations in the entire world could afford it?

This is a crazily risky stategy,especialy if they piss off DIC (or whoever) so much that they walk away.

Such a plan would be highly likely to ruin both Hicks and Gillett and destroy their only asset--the club.

EXACTLY

[Fuzion6]

Yes but then on in it just turns into a bicker-fest and people arguing over someones credentials or critiscising their integrity rather than discussing what they actually say and if they dont believe it they should come up with better arguments than 'your grammar isn't what i'd expect it to be' or because they havent disclosed personal details about their jobs.

Thanks Live4pool - especially as many of us haven't got the time to write these posts grammatically perfectly and hit the spell check button...esp when at work!

[Tyler Durden]

So despite already having 60 million for the stadium theyd need another 400 million according to your figures? Also they would probably get subsantial naming rights money. The extra revenue from the stadium would pay for its self but it would restrict transfer money. Where you get 80 million interest from i dont know.

[Tyler Durden]

And if someone buys the club for near 1 billion pounds then that 1 billion doesnt go into the pockets of G & H while the new owner pays the interest of THEIR loan, it wipes the debt and G&H keep the extra money. Unless the new owner assumes the debt and gives G&H the difference of the valuation.

[Tyler Durden]

What someone said earlier is right though, there wouldnt be many people wanting to buy the club for that, unless glazier is on the lookout. Thats why i think the fat gobshite wants to keep us longterm.

[Liverbird 2010]

They are all pissing me off with all their arsing around Gillet, Hicks, parry & Moores for selling to them, and DIC for not buying us.

[Soapybible]

If any1 wants to get more clarity on why I would know this info just PM me. I'm not going to release on public forum what I do and my job for obvious reasons...I have spoken to Gillette before he bought the club..in fact he hung up on me cos we weren't able to provide him what he wanted and he got pi$$ed off by how some1 spoke to him.

Thanks Live4pool - especially as many of us haven't got the time to write these posts grammatically perfectly and hit the spell check button...esp when at work!

Should we expect someone who claims they have close dealing with our owners to at least know how his surname is spelt? Its Gillett not the branded razor blade!!

[Liverbird 2010]

Should we expect someone who claims they have close dealing with our owners to at least know how his surname is spelt? Its Gillett not the branded razor blade!!

To be fair hardly anyone spells his name right on here.  Ive probably even spelled it wrong in my sig.

[jonnygeeart]

I think a point many are missing here is that if G+H do manage to borrow enough money to build the stadium and then try to sell the club for upwards £800 million,how many organisations in the entire world could afford it?

This is a crazily risky stategy,especialy if they piss off DIC (or whoever) so much that they walk away.

Such a plan would be highly likely to ruin both Hicks and Gillett and destroy their only asset--the club.

dic wouldn't be interested no one would.They are blinded by greed

[fry]

who gives a shit how it is spelled, he does not deserve grammar!

[zimmy]

Thanks Live4pool - especially as many of us haven't got the time to write these posts grammatically perfectly and hit the spell check button...esp when at work!

I am certainly not getting in to a slanging match with you. I have given valid points as to why i doubt your statement.
what i do object to is people giving out snippets of unsubstantiated info and unnecessarily upsetting people, which has happened to many times. i have stated my objections IE it came from the mouth of RBS, all RBS employees had to re apply for their jobs, and some guy from liverpool is in the states looking to raise cash. you now say you broke the news re the debt. i seem to remember it being headlines in the echo, maybe you gave them that? now you tell us you have spoken personally to Gillette, i won't even comment on that. personally i hope your wrong and i doubt if any financial organisation would finance hicks under the present financial climate. what i do know it will definitely not be RBS. As for your scenario re stadium financing with that level of debt we could well be on the road to another Leeds.
i will not post again re your statements. i just hope for the sake of LFC and it's supporters that both hicks and gillette are removed as quickly as possible.

[Fontaine]

Fucking wankers with their non stop disruption and scandal through out the season and now when theres no games they finally shut up.  They better be close to resolving this mess. 
Sick of checking the forums everyday in the hope of good news.

 

[Fuzion6]

I am certainly not getting in to a slanging match with you. I have given valid points as to why i doubt your statement.
what i do object to is people giving out snippets of unsubstantiated info and unnecessarily upsetting people, which has happened to many times. i have stated my objections IE it came from the mouth of RBS, all RBS employees had to re apply for their jobs, and some guy from liverpool is in the states looking to raise cash. you now say you broke the news re the debt. i seem to remember it being headlines in the echo, maybe you gave them that? now you tell us you have spoken personally to Gillette, i won't even comment on that. personally i hope your wrong and i doubt if any financial organisation would finance hicks under the present financial climate. what i do know it will definitely not be RBS. As for your scenario re stadium financing with that level of debt we could well be on the road to another Leeds.
i will not post again re your statements. i just hope for the sake of LFC and it's supporters that both hicks and gillette are removed as quickly as possible.

The stadium financing is essentially what MU have done (although that is on a already build stadium). The reality is that to build the stadium we need to borrow money. Will it be a Leeds situation? Highly unlikely as in the current credit market banks are more and more risk averse so it will require a substantial equity injection from G&H. Every company in the world has debt - its not necessarily a bad thing if it can be managed well. The Mancs are managing their debt extremely well - we should still be able to spend even with all the debt on the club. However the spending won't be near what the Mancs can spend for reasons everyone has mentioned already (double the attendence currently, higher sponsorship etc) nor what we could spend with the likes of DIC (though they are a priv equity firm so also would be looking to put debt on the club and increase their returns).

[zero zero]

I think a point many are missing here is that if G+H do manage to borrow enough money to build the stadium and then try to sell the club for upwards £800 million,how many organisations in the entire world could afford it?

This is a crazily risky stategy,especialy if they piss off DIC (or whoever) so much that they walk away.

Such a plan would be highly likely to ruin both Hicks and Gillett and destroy their only asset--the club.

Especially when football clubs are such notoriously bad investments. There's so many better ways to make your money grow in the timescales involved, if you have to build a stadium to maximise your investment.

And if that's their plan, what are they waiting for?

[No666]

In the current market, had Twit and Twat any alternative to speaking to each other? Perhaps someone savvy as to the financial world can tell us. Surely their relationship was damaging their financial credibility and making the banks that had funded them jittery, and jittery banks might call in a loan? Or is that not how it works? And given that RBS shares are plummeting this week, will it make them more likely to call in high-risk loans prematurely? Is there anything fans can do to persuade RBS that Twit and Twat are not a sound investiment? (Sorry, that's a helluva lot of questions but I'm hoping one of you banker types can answer them.)

[jonnygeeart]

The stadium financing is essentially what MU have done (although that is on a already build stadium). The reality is that to build the stadium we need to borrow money. Will it be a Leeds situation? Highly unlikely as in the current credit market banks are more and more risk averse so it will require a substantial equity injection from G&H. Every company in the world has debt - its not necessarily a bad thing if it can be managed well. The Mancs are managing their debt extremely well - we should still be able to spend even with all the debt on the club. However the spending won't be near what the Mancs can spend for reasons everyone has mentioned already (double the attendence currently, higher sponsorship etc) nor what we could spend with the likes of DIC (though they are a priv equity firm so also would be looking to put debt on the club and increase their returns).

i thought the mancs were rolling over 50m a year in interest payments so cant be managing it that well.surely they will come unstuck when its all due

[alltalknotrousers]

just lovely that it's all gone quiet now when it would be the proper time to conduct their business/fuck off, whilst all throughout the season - when it would have ben nice for manager, team and fans to concentrate on the business of actually playing football - we've had to put up with the stupid fucking rigmarole of them being useless, skint, mendacious c*nts.

[rebel23]

just lovely that it's all gone quiet now when it would be the proper time to conduct their business/fuck off, whilst all throughout the season - when it would have ben nice for manager, team and fans to concentrate on th business of actually playing football - we've had to put up with the stupid fucking rigmarole of them being useless, skint mendacious c*nts.

and you can bet when the season starts they will be at it again

[Fuzion6]

i thought the mancs were rolling over 50m a year in interest payments so cant be managing it that well.surely they will come unstuck when its all due

Technically PIK debt is never due..it just keeps rolling. However they will pay it once the G family starts receiving a dividend which will be next year or two. They will refinance some of their existing debt and once dividends are released use that to pay the PIK down. They could have already done that if they wanted but preferred to spend on players and reinvest in the club then pay the PIk interest which is essentially at their option.

[Liverbird 2010]

This may seem like a stupid question but im a bit confused by it, if man u are supposed to be in around 850 million pounds worth of debt, is Glazer dipping into their profits and can we expect the same?

I cant figure out how you can buy a football club from loans, buy new players and still pocket money if the intrest payments are so high how does it make sense? And better still how does it make you money?

[Live4pool]

so does that mean in a year or 2 they will have fuck all transfer funds & have to sell in order to buy ??

[xerxes1]

Dispassionately, this is how I see it.Our debt is allegedly around the £250m mark. Our income 06/07 was £133.9 ( gate £38.4m). the Mancs was £212.1 (£92.5) figures D&T. The current debt is easily servicable, a £400m stadium (which is what it will end up at) is not.

G&H's Stateside assets may be vulnerable, but Liverpool FC isnt, why sell a stake in a club that is performing well financially and where the revenue streams are going to increase next year because of the new TV money? I dont see where the pressure is coming from for them to sell, arguably the reverse is true.

The real problem now is financial inertia.The Club NEEDS a new stadium, there is no reason why we cannot emulate the Mancs revenue and gate figures. But no-one is going to finance it on terms that enables us to compete meanwhile in the transfer market.

I think that G&H (or one of them with the other buying the other out) will sit tight.I dont think that the Stadium will go ahead in the near future, if it does it will cripple us, and I dont think that Rafa will have much cash this summer. The Barry offer and the Carson and Crouch valuations have been embarassing.

[Fuzion6]

This may seem like a stupid question but im a bit confused by it, if man u are supposed to be in around 850 million pounds worth of debt, is Glazer dipping into their profits and can we expect the same?

I cant figure out how you can buy a football club from loans, buy new players and still pocket money if the intrest payments are so high how does it make sense? And better still how does it make you money?

Its like having a mortgage. As long as you can afford you interest payments you can do what you want with the rest of the money. Mancs make so much money from a 70k stadium, sponsorship and media/competiton revenue that they can still spend lots on transfers as they have a lot of cash remaining after interest payments. Sure the more they spend on players the less that goes into the G family's pockets....but spend more on players, sell more shirts, increase ticket prices etc etc...

[Fuzion6]

Dispassionately, this is how I see it.Our debt is allegedly around the £250m mark. Our income 06/07 was £133.9 ( gate £38.4m). the Mancs was £212.1 (£92.5) figures D&T. The current debt is easily servicable, a £400m stadium (which is what it will end up at) is not.

G&H's Stateside assets may be vulnerable, but Liverpool FC isnt, why sell a stake in a club that is performing well financially and where the revenue streams are going to increase next year because of the new TV money? I dont see where the pressure is coming from for them to sell, arguably the reverse is true.

The real problem now is financial inertia.The Club NEEDS a new stadium, there is no reason why we cannot emulate the Mancs revenue and gate figures. But no-one is going to finance it on terms that enables us to compete meanwhile in the transfer market.

I think that G&H (or one of them with the other buying the other out) will sit tight.I dont think that the Stadium will go ahead in the near future, if it does it will cripple us, and I dont think that Rafa will have much cash this summer. The Barry offer and the Carson and Crouch valuations have been embarassing.

This is spot on.

[sammy22]

Clearly nothing os happening.

I think thats the end of it for now...

I fear if DIC had any plans to get hold of the club this summer a move would have been made by now

Some will say to me "How do you know they haven't"

I don't, but I tend to think not.

[manifest]

But no-one is going to finance it ( the new stadium ) on terms that enables us to compete meanwhile in the transfer market.

er, you mean, apart from DIC?

[lfc_col]

Clearly nothing os happening.

I think thats the end of it for now...

I fear if DIC had any plans to get hold of the club this summer a move would have been made by now

Some will say to me "How do you know they haven't"

I don't, but I tend to think not.

you don't know what's going on behind the scenes i think the silent is good for now if it was the end of august and no news i would be very worried

[jonnygeeart]

Its like having a mortgage. As long as you can afford you interest payments you can do what you want with the rest of the money. Mancs make so much money from a 70k stadium, sponsorship and media/competiton revenue that they can still spend lots on transfers as they have a lot of cash remaining after interest payments. Sure the more they spend on players the less that goes into the G family's pockets....but spend more on players, sell more shirts, increase ticket prices etc etc...

but they dont pay all the interest they owe. 50m a year is rolled over and they owe 150m in back interest

[Zach2k]

Especially when football clubs are such notoriously bad investments.

You sure? I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that every single premier league club sold since 92 has been sold on profit, and pretty handsome profits at that. A BBC reporter was mentioning thats why so many outside investors with no real interest in football were so keen to buy up premier league clubs.

[Fuzion6]

but they dont pay all the interest they owe. 50m a year is rolled over and they owe 150m in back interest

Yup - but they can pay the interest if they want. They have decided not to and are spending that money reinvesting in the club either as transfer spend on retained profit. The higher they make the retained profits the quicker they can pay themselves a dividend....I expect them to start paying the PIK once they start paying dividends.

[xerxes1]

er, you mean, apart from DIC?

I believe that people's hopes for what DIC can offer us are unrealistic. DIC may be a better owner than G&H (although Rick Parry didnt think so only a year ago). DIC are a commercial business. They are not going to "give" us £400m for a new stadium, even if they could finance it, that "debt" will have to be "serviced".

Why should they do it at less than a commercial rate? And what impact will that have on our ability to compete in the transfer market?

The ONLY way it "works" is if "the owner" agrees to finance it out of "funds", and then take the interst payments after the improved income stream comes on after the stadium completion - whichi s the argument for a 70,000 seater now, not a 60k one "growing".

[jonnygeeart]

rick parry is a fool and i'll bet one of the reasons hicks wants shut of him is that he doesn't want anybody stupid enough to sell to him on his payroll any longer than he has to given that parry keeping his job was one of the sweeteners to get him onside

[xerxes1]

This may seem like a stupid question but im a bit confused by it, if man u are supposed to be in around 850 million pounds worth of debt, is Glazer dipping into their profits and can we expect the same?

I cant figure out how you can buy a football club from loans, buy new players and still pocket money if the intrest payments are so high how does it make sense? And better still how does it make you money?

Top Football clubs generate cash, lots of it, which is why "investors" like them. The Mancs generated £212M last season to our £134m, their debt is shown at around £650m. Last year it cost them £42m, but ongoing its around £60m, that leaves a lot "left over".

Glazer (and G&H) make their money two ways.Firstly the income at both clubs continues to grow increasing the value of the club, so over a period of time they enjoy capital growth (the DIC bid would have given G&C a profit of between £50-100m between them depending on how you count.That is OUR money which could/should have been used in the transfer market/ on a new stadium.

Secondly they will be taking Directors salaries of typically £500,000 each out of the club .The big difference between Man U and us is that our gate revenue last year was £38.4, theirs was £92.5m. But in order to get our hands on that extra £54m worth of gate revenue, we have to spend and finance £400m on a new stadium. The Mancs and Arse have done it already.

Which is at the heart of our problem. In football terms we need a new stadium.In commercial terms G&H can make more money by NOT doing it.

[LiverBirdKop]

Top Football clubs generate cash, lots of it, which is why "investors" like them. The Mancs generated £212M last season to our £134m, their debt is shown at around £650m. Last year it cost them £42m, but ongoing its around £60m, that leaves a lot "left over".

What are the operating costs including transfer fees, wages etc? I have to disagree. I don't think there is a lot left over for "investors to like"..... unless of course you're united. And even then, their net profit is not a great investment.

There weren't a lot of investors flocking to buy us at a much lower valuation 2-4 years ago were there? Sure, football clubs make a lot of cash but they are also extremely expensive to run.

[xerxes1]

What I said was that Investors like the cash that clubs generate - you are quite right that how that translates into profit is another matter. The most outrageous (and funny) example of this is how Leeds went into administration just after almost £9m was siphoned off into a still unexplained offshore account for an unspecified reason.

As for us, as the figures show, we were not, and are not a great buy because of the need to move grounds. It is a very "cash hungry" investment.
 

[TSC]

If it's true that either or both intend to hang on and on like a bad dose of the crabs then unfortunately the only way to get rid would be for the team to have a totally shite season (no European qual - mid table finish), lose top players, which may eventually (in theory though it prob won't) hit attendances through people being brassed off with the whole situation.

Then they may be forced to sell - in fact such a scenario will hit them in the pocket.

In fact such a shite season may be worth putting up with just to get these cancers out.  At least new investors could start afresh.