Topic: GED's back four this season

[kopindian]

These are the matches all of them started & the results this season.

Everton 2-1 won
Beşiktaş 2-1 lost
Arsenal 1-1 draw
Balckburn 0-0draw
Derby 2-1 win
Luton 1-1 draw
Barnsley 2-1 lost

In all of these games we struggled(2-1 win against everton was also a stuggle & many would say undeserved.

These are the games in which 3 of these players started(Any 3 od Sami,Carra,Finna & Riise) and the results.

Toulose 1-0 win
Porto 1-1 draw
Birmingham 0-0 draw
Marseille 1-0 lost
Spurs 2-2 draw
Newcastle 3-0 win
Porto 4-1 win
Bolton 4-0 win
Marseille 4-0 win
Mancs 1-0 lost
Portsmouth 4-1 win
Boro 1-1 draw
Luton 5-0 win
Villa 2-2 draw
Havant 5-2 draw
Hammers 1-0 lost
Chelsea 0-0 draw

I excluded sunderland result becuase Agger came in early because of injury.
So we can take only 6 results as good ones out of this 17 where we can say we played well.


Now lets see the results when only 2 among this backline played.This is important coz I think only one of them would be first choice in the preferred back 4 this season(Arbeloa-Carra-Agger-Aurelio).

Villa 2-1 win
Chelsea 1-1 draw at home
Sunderland 2-0 win
Toulose 4-0 win
Derby 6-0 win
Portsmouth 0-0 draw
Reading 4-2 win
Cardiff 2-1 win
Beşiktaş 8-0 win
Fulham 2-0 win
Reading 3-1 lost
Chelsea 2-0 lost
ManCity 0-0 draw
Wigan 1-1 draw
Sunderland 3-0 win

The only bad rsullts out of this 15 games has been Chelsea,reading(Hobbs was used) & wigan.In the draw against ManCity we played extremely well but was really unlucky to not to win the game.


So what I am saying is that for most of this season we had tp play atleast 3 from the Houllier's back 4 & because of it we couldn't play a high-line which is very important to our forward play.The inclusion of these players has been hampering the offensive nature of out game with their lack of good passing,poor movement & hoof balling.Some blame has to be in for Rafa for failing to sign a CB in summer but the outstanding circumstances regarding Heinze signing has to be considered.


Our current league standing--25 games 44 points-1.76 points per game-Projection-67 points
Matches with atleast 3 of Ged's back 4 excluded- 11 games  24 points--2.18 points per game-Projection- 83points
EDIT:Had to edit it bcoz of some error in calculation.Now its correct I believe.


Bottomline-The problem this season has been injuries to our defenders which forced us to play our second choice defenders most of the time & not fucking rotation.Don't come out with they are defenders it has no relation to our offensive play,because it has big impact on our offensive game.


PS:Stats thanks to http://www.lfchistory.net/index.asp

[Redallover11]

you know that is interesting and although I am too tired to think more on it I want to commend you on a well thought out piece.

[CaptainHindsight?]

Preferred back 4 surely has Finnan in it. Who btw is a good attacking player.

preferred back 4....arbs on the left.
SF-JC-DA-AA

[jackh]

I was thinking the other night about how it seems that of the squad members who predate Rafa, there is probably only Carra and Gerrard who's positions in the squad ahead of next season are truly secure.  Riise, Hyypia, Finnan and Kewell?  I can't see them all leaving, but they're certainly 4 players who've taken more stick that most this season (Hyypia in a perhaps different way).

Interesing post there though, cheers.

[JohnSullie]

Ya but look at our defensive record prior to this season with those players in the team under Rafa,not fair to isolate this season as Rafa has used that back four since he arrived more or less,of course Sami    is knackered now and  Carra is having a  shit season compared to his usual high standards,those two  cant be paired anymore IMO,Rise well he has been a good servant but it maybe time to move on,Finnan I think has some competition for his place for the first time under Benitez(Josemi wasn't really competition was he?) which is a good thing,he is still a good defender even if he iis in and out of the team,we really are missing Danny Agger such a shame.

[capt k]

Preferred back 4 surely has Finnan in it. Who btw is a good attacking player.

preferred back 4....arbs on the left.
SF-JC-DA-AA

 i wouldnt mind in the slightest if carra was dropped and Skrtel/agger was our preferred centre backs.. at least the can both play out the ball..

[Robotforaday]

I think this is a good analysis, although what you're calling Ged's back four were playing for much of Rafa's second season, and kept a high defensive line. However, the other part of what that defence lacks is good distribution (two of the four - Carra and Riise - are hoofers of the ball), which is of course key to turning defence into attack. Agger and Arbeloa's introduction into the team has improved that massively - with them injured it's back to square one.

All in all though, I absolutely agree that defensive injuries have been one of the major factors dragging our season onto the rocks. Very good post.

[Rotation]

What is the missing piece here? DANIEL AGGER

Agger is the key too our team. I sincerely feel that if Agger was healthy the whole year we would be challenging for the title still., or at least comftarbly in the top 4 right now. If you look at our back four today...riise-hyypia-carra-finnan....where does the creativity come from? YEs defenders are on the team to defend, but we can't ignore the fact that a marauding backline is the key to  a good offense. When you watch chelsea man u arsenal play they always have a defender making runs up. Carragher, love the lad, but he needs an attacking back to partner him. And im sorry riise but your ut not cuttin it la. Arbeloa and Agger ...we miss you.

[kopindian]

What is the missing piece here? DANIEL AGGER

Agger is the key too our team. I sincerely feel that if Agger was healthy the whole year we would be challenging for the title still., or at least comftarbly in the top 4 right now. If you look at our back four today...riise-hyypia-carra-finnan....where does the creativity come from? YEs defenders are on the team to defend, but we can't ignore the fact that a marauding backline is the key to  a good offense. When you watch chelsea man u arsenal play they always have a defender making runs up. Carragher, love the lad, but he needs an attacking back to partner him. And im sorry riise but your ut not cuttin it la. Arbeloa and Agger ...we miss you.

Yes,Agger has been missing.But he was will compensated in a period of time by Arbeloa & Aurelio.The backline of Arbeloa---Carra---Hyypi----Fabio was very effective when we could field them.We had them during our very good part of the season begining with Beşiktaş 8-0 win.Besides Agger both Arbeloa & Ayrelio has been missing many games this season.What I am saying is that we could have coped even with Agger out if Arbeloa & Fabio were fit most of the time.

[MikeyG1984]

where do you get aurellio in the prefered back 4??? can't see your point pal!!!

[kopindian]

where do you get aurellio in the prefered back 4??? can't see your point pal!!!

He has always been the first choice for Rafa whenever he has been fit.I would also prefer him to be in LB position over Arbeloa & Riise & many people have been slagging him over 1 bad game this season(Hammers away).

Finnan does not merit a first team place based on this season's form & has been gradually on decline from last season.

[JohnSullie]

Yes,Agger has been missing.But he was will compensated in a period of time by Arbeloa & Aurelio.The backline of Arbeloa---Carra---Hyypi----Fabio was very effective when we could field them.We had them during our very good part of the season begining with Beşiktaş 8-0 win.Besides Agger both Arbeloa & Ayrelio has been missing many games this season.What I am saying is that we could have coped even with Agger out if Arbeloa & Fabio were fit most of the time.

You still can't call it "GEDS back four"mate Rafa could have got rid at anytime he wanted of those players since he arrived,Aurelio hasn't been great this season at all,Finnan IMO  should keep RB and Arbeola  to the left.

[otitito]

Carra - Skrtel - Agger - Arbeloa would be 1st choice line up next season I reckon

[Rotation]

Carra - Skrtel - Agger - Arbeloa would be 1st choice line up next season I reckon

i really think we need a true wing back....someone like clichy....wide players are nothing with an idiot like riise running the show...

[MagicB8all]

These are the matches all of them started & the results this season.

Everton 2-1 won
Beşiktaş 2-1 lost
Arsenal 1-1 draw
Balckburn 0-0draw
Derby 2-1 win
Luton 1-1 draw
Barnsley 2-1 lost

In all of these games we struggled(2-1 win against everton was also a stuggle & many would say undeserved.

These are the games in which 3 of these players started(Any 3 od Sami,Carra,Finna & Riise) and the results.

Toulose 1-0 win
Porto 1-1 draw
Birmingham 0-0 draw
Marseille 1-0 lost
Spurs 2-2 draw
Newcastle 3-0 win
Porto 4-1 win
Bolton 4-0 win
Marseille 4-0 win
Mancs 1-0 lost
Portsmouth 4-1 win
Boro 1-1 draw
Luton 5-0 win
Villa 2-2 draw
Havant 5-2 draw
Hammers 1-0 lost
Chelsea 0-0 draw

I excluded sunderland result becuase Agger came in early because of injury.
So we can take only 6 results as good ones out of this 17 where we can say we played well.


Now lets see the results when only 2 among this backline played.This is important coz I think only one of them would be first choice in the preferred back 4 this season(Arbeloa-Carra-Agger-Aurelio).

Villa 2-1 win
Chelsea 1-1 draw at home
Sunderland 2-0 win
Toulose 4-0 win
Derby 6-0 win
Portsmouth 0-0 draw
Reading 4-2 win
Cardiff 2-1 win
Beşiktaş 8-0 win
Fulham 2-0 win
Reading 3-1 lost
Chelsea 2-0 lost
ManCity 0-0 draw
Wigan 1-1 draw
Sunderland 3-0 win

The only bad rsullts out of this 15 games has been Chelsea,reading(Hobbs was used) & wigan.In the draw against ManCity we played extremely well but was really unlucky to not to win the game.


So what I am saying is that for most of this season we had tp play atleast 3 from the Houllier's back 4 & because of it we couldn't play a high-line which is very important to our forward play.The inclusion of these players has been hampering the offensive nature of out game with their lack of good passing,poor movement & hoof balling.Some blame has to be in for Rafa for failing to sign a CB in summer but the outstanding circumstances regarding Heinze signing has to be considered.


Our current league standing--25 games 44 points-1.76 points per game-Projection-67 points
Matches with atleast 3 of Ged's back 4 excluded- 11 games  24 points--2.18 points per game-Projection- 83points
EDIT:Had to edit it bcoz of some error in calculation.Now its correct I believe.


Bottomline-The problem this season has been injuries to our defenders which forced us to play our second choice defenders most of the time & not fucking rotation.Don't come out with they are defenders it has no relation to our offensive play,because it has big impact on our offensive game.


PS:Stats thanks to http://www.lfchistory.net/index.asp

I think this is a great post, covers points I've made about the importance of Agger  - I only hope this post doesnt get lost in the rage following Barnsley

[walshys_mullet]

These are the matches all of them started & the results this season.

Everton 2-1 won
Beşiktaş 2-1 lost
Arsenal 1-1 draw
Balckburn 0-0draw
Derby 2-1 win
Luton 1-1 draw
Barnsley 2-1 lost

In all of these games we struggled(2-1 win against everton was also a stuggle & many would say undeserved.

These are the games in which 3 of these players started(Any 3 od Sami,Carra,Finna & Riise) and the results.

Toulose 1-0 win
Porto 1-1 draw
Birmingham 0-0 draw
Marseille 1-0 lost
Spurs 2-2 draw
Newcastle 3-0 win
Porto 4-1 win
Bolton 4-0 win
Marseille 4-0 win
Mancs 1-0 lost
Portsmouth 4-1 win
Boro 1-1 draw
Luton 5-0 win
Villa 2-2 draw
Havant 5-2 draw
Hammers 1-0 lost
Chelsea 0-0 draw

I excluded sunderland result becuase Agger came in early because of injury.
So we can take only 6 results as good ones out of this 17 where we can say we played well.


Now lets see the results when only 2 among this backline played.This is important coz I think only one of them would be first choice in the preferred back 4 this season(Arbeloa-Carra-Agger-Aurelio).

Villa 2-1 win
Chelsea 1-1 draw at home
Sunderland 2-0 win
Toulose 4-0 win
Derby 6-0 win
Portsmouth 0-0 draw
Reading 4-2 win
Cardiff 2-1 win
Beşiktaş 8-0 win
Fulham 2-0 win
Reading 3-1 lost
Chelsea 2-0 lost
ManCity 0-0 draw
Wigan 1-1 draw
Sunderland 3-0 win

The only bad rsullts out of this 15 games has been Chelsea,reading(Hobbs was used) & wigan.In the draw against ManCity we played extremely well but was really unlucky to not to win the game.


So what I am saying is that for most of this season we had tp play atleast 3 from the Houllier's back 4 & because of it we couldn't play a high-line which is very important to our forward play.The inclusion of these players has been hampering the offensive nature of out game with their lack of good passing,poor movement & hoof balling.Some blame has to be in for Rafa for failing to sign a CB in summer but the outstanding circumstances regarding Heinze signing has to be considered.


Our current league standing--25 games 44 points-1.76 points per game-Projection-67 points
Matches with atleast 3 of Ged's back 4 excluded- 11 games  24 points--2.18 points per game-Projection- 83points
EDIT:Had to edit it bcoz of some error in calculation.Now its correct I believe.


Bottomline-The problem this season has been injuries to our defenders which forced us to play our second choice defenders most of the time & not fucking rotation.Don't come out with they are defenders it has no relation to our offensive play,because it has big impact on our offensive game.


PS:Stats thanks to http://www.lfchistory.net/index.asp

so...nothing to do with forward play then?

[woof]

There may be some truth in what you're saying. We missed Skrtel (I won't mention Agger because he's been gone for so long) yesterday. He would have dealt with the cross which set up the first goal more effectively. Sami got caught up at least twice when he lost to his opponent in pace but luckily for him, nothing eventuated.

However, the bottom line is we don't have players who can score apart from Gerrard & Torres - I mean genuine goal threats when the chips are down. The go-to guys. We bombarded the Tykes' goal mouth but plundered nothing from our industry. The match should have ended 5-0 in our favour and yet we lost to another lowly team

[Shanks1965]

Carra - Skrtel - Agger - Arbeloa would be 1st choice line up next season I reckon

Why on earth would you want to move Jamie Carragher to right back? He's the best central defender we have and he's actually quite poor when he is played as full back.

[Shanks1965]

There may be some truth in what you're saying. We missed Skrtel (I won't mention Agger because he's been gone for so long) yesterday. He would have dealt with the cross which set up the first goal more effectively. Sami got caught up at least twice when he lost to his opponent in pace but luckily for him, nothing eventuated.

However, the bottom line is we don't have players who can score apart from Gerrard & Torres - I mean genuine goal threats when the chips are down. The go-to guys. We bombarded the Tykes' goal mouth but plundered nothing from our industry. The match should have ended 5-0 in our favour and yet we lost to another lowly team

Not sure about Skrtel, its a bit soon to say we missed him dont you think?

Agree with the rest of your post, especially about the lack of goal threats. If United had put the ball into the box that many times in a game they'd fill their boots.

But for me the real mistake was leaving Reinna out. I do think he would have dealt with both their goals a lot better and given we are so poor at finding the net we almost have to keep a clean sheet to win any game.

[MattLFC08]

Houlier out...

[G1 Jockey 4(betfair)]

i think its carra with either agger or skrtel for the time being.
im not 100% convinced about agger forming a prtnership just yet with skrtel in the centre as both are way too young and inexperienced.

having carra there as the organiser makes sense as he has been there done it.

obviously the new younguns will get games together through rotation.

and btw yes this is one of the 2 main reasons why we have failed to mount a title challenge.
since agger got injured we havent looked the same especially when teams closed down our back 4.

[macca007]

so...nothing to do with forward play then?

But this doesn't help the forward play a lot.  Especially when linking defense and midfield

[GinKop]

Good bit of analysis, interesting reading. If Rafa had the players available to him I don't think our back 5 would change very much between games. As it's been this season, he's had to cope with injuries, Riise's inevitable departure of form and an ageing centre back paring.

[macca007]

Ive posted this on another thread an never got any reply's  and i think it is sort of relevant and also I want to know what everyone else thinks on this as I think this is one of our main problems when we attack, and a reason for so many of our draws.

If you take our 1st team and compare to the other top sides (as much I hate to do this) and then look at the attacking threat of each player relative to thier position and you can see which the areas that we are lacking.  Although this does depend on which player you think is actually an attacking threat compared to others.  Say our 1st team is
Reina
finnan carra agger aurelio (if fit)
benyoun gerrard masch babel
torres kuyt

Who when they get the ball do you think he might have a chance to create something.  Be it a goal or taking on someone to thread a pass through who has a genuine attackin threat.  Of those players mentioned id say agger gerrard and torres will look likely to produce somthing when they are on the ball on a regular basis.  Babel needs confidence and will hopefully in the future replace kuyt and we will get another left winger and benyoun can go slightly missing in games.  Even our subs.  Pennant never looks likely to go get a goal an crouch heading the ball at goal is like throwin a piece of stiring at the fuckin thing!!  I think it says a lot when you dont think 1 of your starting strikers or any of their replacements looks likely to score

Compare this to united
van der sar
neville ferdinand vidic evra
ronaldo scholes carrick giggs
rooney tevez

even ferdinand and vidic can look dangerous from corners and set pieces (another area where we can lack) and when carrying the ball out, let alone all their midfield, their full backs and both their strikers, with maybe carrick as an exception.  You can do this with any team you like an you will notice that across the park and also with their substitutes the other 3 big teams look more of an attacking threat than us.
I want to know what anyone thinks on this? 
The difference with them however is when do united or chelsea ever seem to miss their top targets through lack of money.  Even arsenal very rarely do.  Then look at the squad values of each teams.
I do think rafa knows this by the way hence the attempted buys of alves simao mancini and others.  I just believe this highlights the owners need to back rafa in the transfer market a lot more or get in someone who will!

[woof]

Not sure about Skrtel, its a bit soon to say we missed him dont you think?

Agree with the rest of your post, especially about the lack of goal threats. If United had put the ball into the box that many times in a game they'd fill their boots.

But for me the real mistake was leaving Reinna out. I do think he would have dealt with both their goals a lot better and given we are so poor at finding the net we almost have to keep a clean sheet to win any game.

You can tell Srktel is good in the air - that's just from the Chelsea game. Not many fluke playing against players of the highest calibre. There are some defenders who inspire confidence and there are some that don't. Skrtel, to me, is one of those who do.

Anyway, it was a shite game. This must be how Milan felt in 2005

[RuairiK]

i think our first choice defence is good enough but we havent had it available to us for enough of the season.

In my opinion it should be Arbeloa / Carra / Agger / Aurelio

I think the back four and keeper should be exempt from the rotation policy. They need to get used to playing with each other and build the defensive unit we had when we had finnan / hyypia / carra / riise.

 

[RuairiK]

Ive posted this on another thread an never got any reply's  and i think it is sort of relevant and also I want to know what everyone else thinks on this as I think this is one of our main problems when we attack, and a reason for so many of our draws.

If you take our 1st team and compare to the other top sides (as much I hate to do this) and then look at the attacking threat of each player relative to thier position and you can see which the areas that we are lacking. 

Completely agree with this. Mancs / Arsenal / Chelsea back 4 all chip in with goals. Ours doesnt.

Its is no secret that there is not enough goals from midfield apart from Gerrard ( and Yossi against poor opposition)

This is crucial when we are as unlucky as we have been this season with injuries.

[lucid-tentacles]

My Back 4 at this time if fit would be
Arbeloa  -  Skrtel  -  Agger  -  Aurelio

2 Attacking Wing Backs and 2 Solid central defenders who can pass the ball out

[D🐶G]

If in doubt blame Houllier, eh?

[Shanks1965]

My Back 4 at this time if fit would be
Arbeloa  -  Skrtel  -  Agger  -  Aurelio

2 Attacking Wing Backs and 2 Solid central defenders who can pass the ball out

But they are not wing backs in your formation, they are full backs. There is a difference.

Finnan / Arbeloa...Carragher - Skrtel - Agger....Risse / Aurelio

Playing wing backs as we did under Evans would accomodate all our defenders in positions where they are most effective.

We dont let our fullbacks get forward often enough or quick enough. Overlapping full backs are very effective, they create options and drag the opposition back to mark them. Good teams ALWAYS have full backs who contribute almost as much to the attack as they do to defense. Unless we allow our to get forward into dangerous wide positions from which they actually DELIVER decent crosses or passes we will never show enough attacking creativity to threaten teams at home on a regular basis.

I may be imagining it but this season our backs just dont seem to get into those sort of areas like we used to?

[Harry_Wong]

These are the matches all of them started & the results this season.

[2-3-2]

In all of these games we struggled (2-1 win against everton was also a stuggle & many would say undeserved.

These are the games in which 3 of these players started (Any 3 of Sami,Carra, Finnan & Riise) and the results.

[7-7-3]

I excluded Sunderland result because Agger came in early because of injury.
So we can take only 6 results as good ones out of this 17 where we can say we played well.

Now lets see the results when only 2 among this backline played.This is important coz I think only one of them would be first choice in the preferred back 4 this season(Arbeloa-Carra-Agger-Aurelio).

[9-4-2]

The only bad results out of this 15 games has been Chelsea, Reading (Hobbs was used) & wigan. In the draw against Man City we played extremely well but was really unlucky to not to win the game.


So what I am saying is that for most of this season we had tp play atleast 3 from the Houllier's back 4 & because of it we couldn't play a high-line which is very important to our forward play.The inclusion of these players has been hampering the offensive nature of out game with their lack of good passing,poor movement & hoof balling.Some blame has to be in for Rafa for failing to sign a CB in summer but the outstanding circumstances regarding Heinze signing has to be considered.

Our current league standing--25 games 44 points-1.76 points per game-Projection-67 points
Matches with at least 3 of Ged's back 4 excluded - 11 games  24 points--2.18 points per game-Projection- 83points
EDIT:Had to edit it bcoz of some error in calculation.Now its correct I believe.

Bottomline-The problem this season has been injuries to our defenders which forced us to play our second choice defenders most of the time & not fucking rotation.Don't come out with they are defenders it has no relation to our offensive play,because it has big impact on our offensive game.

PS:Stats thanks to http://www.lfchistory.net/index.asp

Excellent post to put together all the results. It's just what I've been saying, but without putting in the work you have to back it up:

I defend Rafa, but not most of our defenders - Carragher the penalty giver, Hyypia with the turning speed of a river boat, Riise utterly brainless, and Finnan now off the pace, they've been near useless this season.

Without cover from Heinze, Agger unavailable and Arbeloa injured recently (both Rafa's buys), these established players (from Houllier's days) have been beaten time after time, costly countless draws and 'shock' defeats.

The decline of the defence is something that I was worrying about yesterday, having seen Riise and Carragher beaten for Barnsley's first goal, Carragher picking up a suspension through a booking and just moments after I posted about it, Hyypia committed a penalty offence and Carragher turned away from the shot that led to the goal.

Riise should have been sold a couple of seasons back, when his reputation was still above his real ability as a defender. Instead he's been kept and partial (injury-prone) cover provided by Aurelio, or just dropped in favour of Arbeloa. Finnan's form has dropped this season, he used to be our most consistent performer in defence.

Carragher has been a disaster for most of the season, committing one penalty offence after another (he's lucky refs let him off so many, but luck runs out). Hyypia has been drastic decline for a couple of seasons.

[The Bill Hicks Appreciation Society]

If in doubt blame Houllier, eh?

I don't think that's the crux of it at all, for Houllier the preferred back 4 was Carragher Henchoz Hyypia Riise which would likely eventually to have been Finnan Carragher Hyypia Riise, this is fine for the way Houllier had us set out. i.e. sitting deep, breaking up play and hitting on the counter which is why I think Houllier went for Cisse to partner Owen (would have been the fastest front pair in the league) and I believe Cisse would have been a huge success under Gerard, however we would have been even more predictable than we'd been the previous two years.

This back four is not the ideal line up for Rafa's ideal system which is to play possession football (if you have the ball the opposition can't score by default) high up the pitch so basically we're entrenched in their half... this is why he froze out Henchoz... not because he was a shit defender as he proved otherwise with spells at pompey and wigan, but simply because he was never going to the type of defender that would fit into Rafa's plans. It was harsh and cruel for Rafa to treat Henchoz the way he did but it left Henchoz in no doubt as to where his future lay, and it wasn't with Liverpool...as became true of Diouf but for different reasons.

[Art Vandelay]

Defence has obviously been a problem this season, because we're not a stunning team going forward our defensive strength and 'clean sheet ability' has always stood us in good stead, and allowed us to pick up wins by just 1 goal.  With the introduction of Torres/Babel/Benayoun our hope was that we'd continue but turn the 0-0's into 1 or 2 goal wins, however our inability to hold onto leads has caused us to come unstuck too many times this season.

I think Sami has probably been our best defender this season, and Pepe has been excellent in goal, but Carra has had his worst season in quite a long time and we've barely seen Agger all season.  Add to that Finnan has looked his age this season, Riise has continued his poor form and Aurelio is barely ever fit.  Skrtel looks good, and Arbeloa has been very good until his injury. It's no surprise we've been bad at the back, all things considered, but that's no excuse and we simply have to do better.

[MagicB8all]

I don't think that's the crux of it at all, for Houllier the preferred back 4 was Carragher Henchoz Hyypia Riise which would likely eventually to have been Finnan Carragher Hyypia Riise, this is fine for the way Houllier had us set out. i.e. sitting deep, breaking up play and hitting on the counter which is why I think Houllier went for Cisse to partner Owen (would have been the fastest front pair in the league) and I believe Cisse would have been a huge success under Gerard, however we would have been even more predictable than we'd been the previous two years.

This back four is not the ideal line up for Rafa's ideal system which is to play possession football (if you have the ball the opposition can't score by default) high up the pitch so basically we're entrenched in their half... this is why he froze out Henchoz... not because he was a shit defender as he proved otherwise with spells at pompey and wigan, but simply because he was never going to the type of defender that would fit into Rafa's plans. It was harsh and cruel for Rafa to treat Henchoz the way he did but it left Henchoz in no doubt as to where his future lay, and it wasn't with Liverpool...as became true of Diouf but for different reasons.

This is what I've been saying:  Right now  however I dont think Rafa's been ruthless enough with players  like Riise, Kewel, Kuyt and Crouch to name but a few. For me the true test as to whether Rafa can get us there is  whether or not he sells these players in the summer.




we should have sold Crouch in Dec

[BazC]

My back 4 of the season:

Arbeloa----Hyypia----Agger---Arbeloa


Yes the eagle-eyed amongst you will have noticed that I've got Arbeloa twice... but I think he's been our best fullback for the left AND right positions. But if you pushed me, you'd have Finnan in there on the right, and Arbeloa on the left. Carra's been totally outshone by Hyypia this season, and the few games Agger played, the team was on the top of the world. Well, up until his injury we were top of the Premiership anyway...

[roym]

These are the matches all of them started & the results this season.

Everton 2-1 won
Beşiktaş 2-1 lost
Arsenal 1-1 draw
Balckburn 0-0draw
Derby 2-1 win
Luton 1-1 draw
Barnsley 2-1 lost

In all of these games we struggled(2-1 win against everton was also a stuggle & many would say undeserved.

These are the games in which 3 of these players started(Any 3 od Sami,Carra,Finna & Riise) and the results.

Toulose 1-0 win
Porto 1-1 draw
Birmingham 0-0 draw
Marseille 1-0 lost
Spurs 2-2 draw
Newcastle 3-0 win
Porto 4-1 win
Bolton 4-0 win
Marseille 4-0 win
Mancs 1-0 lost
Portsmouth 4-1 win
Boro 1-1 draw
Luton 5-0 win
Villa 2-2 draw
Havant 5-2 draw
Hammers 1-0 lost
Chelsea 0-0 draw

I excluded sunderland result becuase Agger came in early because of injury.
So we can take only 6 results as good ones out of this 17 where we can say we played well.


Now lets see the results when only 2 among this backline played.This is important coz I think only one of them would be first choice in the preferred back 4 this season(Arbeloa-Carra-Agger-Aurelio).

Villa 2-1 win
Chelsea 1-1 draw at home
Sunderland 2-0 win
Toulose 4-0 win
Derby 6-0 win
Portsmouth 0-0 draw
Reading 4-2 win
Cardiff 2-1 win
Beşiktaş 8-0 win
Fulham 2-0 win
Reading 3-1 lost
Chelsea 2-0 lost
ManCity 0-0 draw
Wigan 1-1 draw
Sunderland 3-0 win

The only bad rsullts out of this 15 games has been Chelsea,reading(Hobbs was used) & wigan.In the draw against ManCity we played extremely well but was really unlucky to not to win the game.


So what I am saying is that for most of this season we had tp play atleast 3 from the Houllier's back 4 & because of it we couldn't play a high-line which is very important to our forward play.The inclusion of these players has been hampering the offensive nature of out game with their lack of good passing,poor movement & hoof balling.Some blame has to be in for Rafa for failing to sign a CB in summer but the outstanding circumstances regarding Heinze signing has to be considered.


Our current league standing--25 games 44 points-1.76 points per game-Projection-67 points
Matches with atleast 3 of Ged's back 4 excluded- 11 games  24 points--2.18 points per game-Projection- 83points
EDIT:Had to edit it bcoz of some error in calculation.Now its correct I believe.


Bottomline-The problem this season has been injuries to our defenders which forced us to play our second choice defenders most of the time & not fucking rotation.Don't come out with they are defenders it has no relation to our offensive play,because it has big impact on our offensive game.


PS:Stats thanks to http://www.lfchistory.net/index.asp

that's exactly what i kept thinking when Skrtel played at Chelsea. for once we looked formidable again at the back, and there was less hoofing, and more build up play. Finann, Carra, Sami and Risse (as well as Aurelio) are part of the past. central defensive partnership of Agger,Skrtel, wingbacks (Arbeloa and AN other) will be the future in my view

[abhred]

I agree, Ged's back four has been horrible this season apart from Hyypia. All other look terrible, and can hardly pass the ball.

[Alf]

Finnan, Carra, Sami and JAR are Rafa's back four they've all been given new contracts during his time at the club. But Agger & Arbeloa are two of Rafa's favoured personnel and looking at our results when they play its clear to see why. We've been unlucky at the back with injury but I still believe our main problem is our lack of quality out wide and up front. Which is why during Rafa's time at the club we haven't scored in 8 trips to Stamford Bridge and our only goal in the Premiership against Man Utd was an own goal

[MagicB8all]

Finnan, Carra, Sami and JAR are Rafa's back four they've all been given new contracts during his time at the club. But Agger & Arbeloa are two of Rafa's favoured personnel and looking at our results when they play its clear to see why. We've been unlucky at the back with injury but I still believe our main problem is our lack of quality out wide and up front. Which is why during Rafa's time at the club we haven't scored in 8 trips to Stamford Bridge and our only goal in the Premier League against Man Utd was an own goal

NO! our problem is lack of quality full stop. Under Rafa's system we'll never attack like Arsenal or United but we'll still need quality players everywhere INCLUDING DEFENSE these defenders WILL have to be ball players so we hold a higher line and can committ more players to forward positions safely. This is just as important as strikers because once we get the lead rather than go for another goal we tend to defend it - we are the new 80's Arsenal

[Eeyore]

When Aggers fit his pace and recovery Help out Carra

He covers more of the pitch allowing Carra to stay a bit tighter on his man

When Sami plays Carra has to cover for Him

That's why Carra has spent most of the season on his backside making last ditch challenges

Giving penalties away etc