Author Topic: The history of the Holocaust  (Read 53495 times)

Offline DannyD

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #120 on: February 19, 2008, 11:29:53 pm »



I look a bit like him Dava, well when he was alive anyway.
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Offline DannyD

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #121 on: February 19, 2008, 11:31:15 pm »
I have destroyed this vile interpretation before – in this post here:
Quote from: yorkykopite on February 10, 2008, 11:49:53 AM

DannyD couldn’t engage with it. Indeed his considered response was “to bin it”.


I disengaged with it after a 2380 word reply,!!!!!!!! (go and count them) I thought enough is enough people have to start reading the untruths for themselves. Let them work it out for themselves, bit like this post stuffed full of misquotes no quotes and quotes from unreliable sources.

There is too much dishonesty in his post ( just look who his ally is )to deal with it all at once, in fact I am tempted to bin it its that bad. Match is on in a min will give a think then. But I again press my advice to you all read understand think for yourselves


Yorky tells us Kasztner saved thousand bringing them across the Rumanian and Polish borders, but then tells us they couldn’t go back the same way because they were surrounded by hostile neighbours, the same hostile neighbours that Kastners heroes had dodged to get the Jews into Hungary, that itself was governed by the most right wing anti Semites in that region he says as much himself: 

“On 19th March 1944 the Nazis occupied Hungary. They did so with the active support of the right-wing and anti-semitic Hungarian government led by Miklos Horthy.”

He then goes on to tell us this mysterious Vaadah, who were so secret only anyone who supports Kasztner knows about it. Oh! of course Raul Hilberg knows but then he quotes from Kasztner’s own papers from the time doesn’t he Yorky? Never mind ask my brother am I a liar, in this case is ask me if I am a liar. Hilberg does this a lot. During his “investigation” into Hungarian Jews in Destruction of European Jews p1225. He relies on Kasztners disputed and disgraced notes The Kasztner Report to explain the so called fall out over the negotiations with Sally Mayer he and his SS buddy Becker (Becher)had with the leading member of the WZO. Hilberg’s whole work on the Rescue negotiations come from Kasztner’s notes. P904 Destruction of the European Jews.

Hilbergs account of the Train of the Prominents is all taken from Kasztner isn’t it Yorky? P905 Just take a look at the notes at the bottom of the page.

You have also quoted Hilberg’s claim that the so called Relief Committee were isolated and alone in the world unable to do anything but collaborate, this also comes from The Kasztner Report

You know about Hilberg has Kasztner’s quotes and notes all over the Rescue section how can that be? In his 2003 edition he doesn’t mention Kasztner’s libel case, he quotes him as if he was whiter than white when he must have known that he would have stood trial as a collaborator for aiding the release of Becker, by perjuring himself. If he had lived the penalty in Israel was death by hanging, but the assassins bullet saved the Israeli Government the job eh!

Nobody is saying an armed insurrection was possible, but did those weapons that you list ever see action? The right of every person to resist to save himself and his family from murder were never given to the rest were they? And for the reason that to do so would jeopardise the rescue of the Prominents, the chosen ones.

You go to great lengths telling us that what was going on at Auschwitz was common knowledge, but don’t you understand they thought they were going to Kenyermeze look at the testimony of the witnesses, not only postcards to kid their families but one of Kasztner’s closest colleagues standing up at meetings telling them to their faces they were safe.

They thought Dr Kasztner had pulled it off for them.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2008, 01:31:18 am by DannyD »
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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #122 on: February 20, 2008, 12:53:29 am »
Now we come to Vrba and Wetzler, I have posted on them before, Vrba is under no illusions as to Kasztner’s roll in holding up his alarm to Hungarian Jews,

I accuse certain Jewish leaders of one of the most ghastly deeds of the war. This small group of quislings knew what was happening to their brethren in Hitler’s gas chambers and bought their own lives with the price of silence. Among them was Dr Kasztner … I was able to give Hungarian Zionist leaders three weeks notice that Eichmann planned to send a million of their Jews to his gas chambers … Kasztner went to Eichmann and told him, ‘I know of your plans; spare some Jews of my choice and I shall keep quiet.’ Eichmann not only agreed, but dressed Kasztner up in SS uniform and took him to Belsen to trace some of his friends. Hecht Perfidy p261

Even Hungary’s Zionist chief rabbi Freudiger admitted that half the Jews could have been saved if they had ignored the instructions of the Jewish councils. H Arendt Eichmann in Jerusalem p203

He also admitted that he received the Vrba report about Auschwitz on May 10-11 and immediately arranged his own escape. Unfortunately the rest of Hungarian Jewry was not let in on the secret. R. Linn, Escaping Auschwitz,  p.38.
we will meet Ruth Linn later.

You throw dates around like white wash and one day in a quiet moment I will sort them out but for now let’s deal with the details. First off reading matter have you read Vrba’s book, I Escaped from Auschwitz/ you can’t have it in that mountain of books you say you have otherwise you would have rushed quotes or miss quotes into your post. That tells me Yorky you are not set on this matter. Vrba’s alarm call could not have been used by the Hungarian Jewish leaders because they had a different agenda. They had the story of “the better life” in Kenyermeze to tell the masses.

It wouldn’t matter who told them and the nonsense about a leaflet drop is just that, nonsense. Nothing of this is in any report from the time. What did Kasztner have to say, we were all alone. Nobody cared or words to that effect.
Or are you saying those who spoke up at the Libel Trial were perjuring themselves, Judge Halevi or the Supreme Court didn’t see it that way, no charges against anyone, of course they were denied charging Kasztner by the assassins bullet. In fact they didn’t dispute any of the evidence did they just the verdict was not quite right so to speak.
 
Now we come to Yorky’s quotes from Hilberg about the noisy trains out of Kistracas:
Finally, there was the matter of the April 27th-28th  advanced deportations. On these two days the Nazis performed a kind of dress-rehearsal for the transport of the Hungarian Jews to Poland. Over 4000 Jews from Kistarcsa were rounded up and stacked into freight trains destined for Auschwitz (Hilberg vol 2 p. 836). ……….. business could hear them. Fearing the secret was out the Nazis ordered that future transports should set off at night when things were less busy (Hilberg vol 2 p. 848).

Well I have the 3rd edition so the page numbers differ, but no sweat, there are only two listings for Kistarcsa in Hilberg’s index both under the chapter DEPORTATIONS, Guess what Yorky old Hilberg goes into details about trains leaving there but nothing about noisy trains waking up the neighbours

There is something about Horthy demanding a train full of prisoners to be stopped at the border, the Jews were shipped back to Kistarcsa (note 205 testimony of Horthy) Later the persevering Eichmann called the Jewish Council to his office, and while the Jewish leaders were detained emptied out the internment camps of
Kistarcsa and Szarva ( note 206 guess who Yorky? Yep our man again) God I wonder what Hilberg would have done without Kasztners digraced affidavit and notes how about you Yorky?

Also something about postcards .......


“ The arrivals were forced to write encouraging cards with datelines from Waldsee to relatives at home. Etc. etc. etc.,word for word from your post Yorky except guess who Hilberg got the information from, One is the courier who dropped them off to the Jewish Council, the other is wait for it……..yes our man Kasztner again.


So we do know Kasztner’s group got the postcards and Kasztner knew about them, he of course says he never gave them out but as Mandy Rice Davis was famous for saying “ He would say that wouldn’t he” Marvellous the way old Kasztner has influenced old Hilberg’s work eh! Him being a known traitor to the Jews and all. I know you meant to point out the note at the bottom of the page in your post Yorky eh! Just slipped from your mind, too much other stuff to mess with I suppose.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2008, 02:06:48 am by DannyD »
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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #123 on: February 20, 2008, 01:20:01 am »
oh! yes forgot Ruth Linn Here is a review of her book Escape from Auschwitz.- A Culture of Forgetting …. to give it its full title.

Ruth Linn,  who is currently Dean of the Faculty of Education at Haifa University, now challenges what has been regarded as the "establishment" view of Israeli historians for the past fifty years.  In this endeavour she follows the path first set by Dr Hannah Arendt, whose book Eichmann in Jerusalem (6) in 1963 attacked what she considered to be the "unmastered past" of the leading Jewish functionaries in Europe during the Holocaust. 

In Dr Linn's view, the same significance has to be attached to Dr Rudolf Vrba's autobiographical memoirs about his time as a prisoner in Auschwitz, also written shortly after the Eichmann trial and published in England in 1963 (7). Dr Linn notes, in her first chapter, the connection between Arendt and Vrba, both of whom had raised
serious ethical questions about the role of the Jewish leaders, and both of whose writings were then suppressed, or at least withheld, in subsequent years from the Hebrew-speaking audience.  This same connection is again stressed in Part III of Linn's book, entitled Between History and Memory, and in Part IV Between Banality and Politics: Vrba and Arendt Restaged.  Her object is to show that both authors, and she herself, have sought, though so far with only limited success, to question the prevailing Israeli historiographical interpretations of the Holocaust……….

............Although Dr Linn was born and educated in Israel, she had never heard of Vrba's role in revealing the secrets of Auschwitz and of the"resettlement" of the Jews sent there.  Despite the centrality of Holocaust remembrance in Israel's national consciousness, she only learnt about this escape while viewing Claude Lanzmann's film Shoah at some point in the late 1980s.  Ten years later, however, she had an opportunity to meet Vrba personally and to read his book I cannot forgive.   This made her all the more curious as to why, fifty years after the Holocaust, the unique actions and memories of these Auschwitz escapees had remained completely unfamiliar to the average Hebrew reader.

She goes on to detail the way Vrba’s name has been omitted and removed from Israeli history. It was she who fought with her own university to award Vrba a degree, in spite of severe opposition by a whole gaggle of Israeli scolars

http://construct.haifa.ac.il/~rlinn/auschwitz_rev2.htm

Some more later
« Last Edit: February 20, 2008, 01:21:39 am by DannyD »
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Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #124 on: February 20, 2008, 10:29:23 am »
I disengaged with it after a 2380 word reply,!!!!!!!! (go and count them)

I never accused you of brevity Dan...I wish I could.

But at the same time a proper reply has to mean something more than recycling chunks of www.marxistconspiracy.org

You keep going on about the "non person" Rudolf  Vrba. I've already put you right on that in some detail. Christ, I've even got a copy of his memoir in front of me now, with a glowing - one might say - fulsome preface by Sir Martin Gilbert, that doyen of 'Zionist history'!

Log off from www.bitterandtwistedantiJewishrants.org and engage your brain for once Dan.....it may be painful at first but honestly, it's a pleasure after a while.
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Offline DannyD

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #125 on: February 20, 2008, 10:44:15 am »
Ah! "The Trucks for Jews" episode. Yorky berates me for not mentioning this item in the Rescue Committees agenda. Well sorry about that but I am far from complete about this affair, trying to buy time for better information to come to hand. First impression is how ridicules it all sounds, and that it was just an alibi. The British dismissed it out of hand as did the Americans.

Yorky mentions 10,000 trucks for the German Army to go to The Eastern Front, but what about the 200 tons of coffee and 200 tons of tea and 2,000,000 cases of soap Eichmann threw into the “ Sale of the Century” So readers you can guess why I was sceptical over this business. Were was the demand to 100,000  packets of Rich Tea biscuits to go with the tea and coffee, surely no deal can be done without them

Having read a good deal about it, (not Hilberg, in future folks when Yorky sites Hilberg take it he is saying Kasztner) including Joel Brand’s testimony before Judge Halevi, there is something going on around this. What that is for certain god only knows. I am certain it didn’t form part of the Train of the Prominent, that was a separate deal that gave Eichmann assurances that Kasztner’s committee would keep quiet about the exterminations and calm the Jewish population down over deportations to Auschwitz. There was also the Nazi’s demand for payment from Kasztner raised by charging rich Jews to travel on the train. Maybe Yorky is seeking a more sympathetic outlook, saving one million Jews for the sake of some “Notables” leaving first is good business eh!

Joel Brand was given extraordinary powers to act on behalf of the German Reich. The orders for this escapade came down from Himmler and might have even gone further up the rat chain. Why allow a none descript Zionist nobody to negotiate with the Allies for these goods. Surely the Reich at top level had emissaries in Switzerland and Spain that could be more believed than Joel Brand. The story goes that Brand was to go to meet with Zionist big wigs in or around Palestine to discuss the matter, they would pressure the Allies to complete the deal.

 In Brands testimony in the court room in Jerusalem he claims he was flown out to Turkey in a German diplomatic plane and was eventually met by Zionist leaders but Brand demanded a higher meeting That man was to be Moshe Shertok the head of The World Zionist Organisation (WZO) political committee, Shertok he was told later couldn’t get a visa to travel to Turkey, but he learned later that this WZO official had travelled around Turkey on a regular basis without anything other than a local pass from the local Bobbies. Brandt had an idea to go to the US Ambassador in Ankara

Brand was first detained by the Turks in Constantinople (Istanbul) over a visa irregularity of his own so he never got to Ankara or the American Ambassador. He was released later but then on his way to an agreed meeting with members of the WZO in Aleppo in British occupied Syrian territory was arrested by the British and held captive by them. In so doing the two week deadline he was given by Eichmann to return with a reply was lost. He further says on oath that it was either Kasztner’s group or the leading Zionists in Palestine that “threw him in” to the British Secret Service. Shertok met and interviewed Brand in the company of British intelligence officers in his book ( they all have one, don’t they) Desperate Mission he says.

Moshe Shertok withdrew into a corner with them [the British], and they talked softly but vehemently together. Then he came back to me and laid a hand on my shoulder ... “You must now go on further south ... it is an order ... I cannot change it” ... “Don’t you understand what you’re doing?” I shouted. “This is plain murder! Mass murder! ... You have no right to seize an emissary. I am not even an emissary from the enemy ... I am here as the delegate of a million people condemned to death.”

After another huddle with the British officers Shertok told him he had to go South and he will be set fee. In fact he was escorted by a British intelligence officer and imprisoned again, this time in Egypt. He was kept there until October 5th, he wanted to return to Hungary via Switzerland and the Swiss were willing to accept him in transit so long as he was sponsored by the Jewish Angency. The British gave him a visa under the name of Eugen Band, the name Eichmann had given him when he first set off. He went to the immigration department of  the WZO and spoke to an officla named Dobkin, who refused to sponsor him.

“You will understand, Joel,” he said, “that I cannot vouch for a man called Eugen Band, when your name is Joel Brand.” “Are you aware, , that many Jews in Central Europe have been sent to the gas chambers simply because officials have refused to sign documents that were not absolutely correct?”
Alex Weissberg, Desperate Mission (Joel Brand’s story as told by Weissberg), p.207

He went straight to Tel Avis to confront the Zionist leadership there, they held a commission of inquiry, nothing was done. He wrote to Chaim Weizmann asking for an interview, along with the letter he sent details of the extermination that was going on in Hungary and the details of Eichmann’s proposal.

He eventually received a letter of reply from Weismann dated  29th December 1944, reproduced here and used as an exhibit in the Libel case.

Mr. Joel Brand
Tel Aviv
Dear Mr. Brand:
I beg you to forgive me for having delayed in answering your
letter. As you may have seen from the Press, I have been traveling
a good deal and generally did not have a free moment since my
arrival here. I have read both your letter and your memorandum
and shall be happy to see you sometime the week after next—
about the tenth of January.
Miss Itin—my secretary—will get in touch with you to fix up
the appointment.
With kind regards,
Yours very sincerely,
Ch. Weizmann
(Protocol,CC 124/53 in the DC Jerusalem)


Wiezmann did eventually meet with Brand a few weeks later after gaining acces through his secretary. He made one promise, to get Brand back to Europe, Brand never heard from him again

The last lines of Brand’s testimony, as they appear of page 676 of the
Courts protocol, read:

Brand: “Rightly or wrongly, for better or for worse, I have cursed Jewry’s official leaders ever since. All these things shall haunt me until me dying day. It ismuch more than a man can bear.” Protocol, CC 124/53 in the DC Jerusalem.

Brand was called as a witness for the Israeli State but his testimony, was a damnation to all the Zionists outside of Europe. Like Weizmanns letter Brands evidence showed the callous and disregard for the plight of Jews in Europe. The way Brand was treated at every level bears witness to the claim the only thing on the minds of leading Zionists was the establishment and population of a Zionist State.

What this affair was about who knows, did Kasztner and Eichmann want Brand out of the way for some purpose?

Was it a test to see if The British would bite for a deal with disgruntled Nazis, a separate peace deal? I just can’t get my head around trucks, tea and coffee for Jews. Yorky goes to great lengths to tell us how much The Nazis hated Jews and his best historian Hilberg tells us that in 1944 when all this was taking place, the death camps rate was increased. It looked as if they wanted all Jews in Europe dead before they themselves would meet their fate.

Much is made of a British diplomat some say Lord Moynes who said what am I to do with a millions Jews. The Zionists like to use this as a way of showing The Brits dislike of Jews, but me I think it was their way off saying “Do me a favour, do you think I am that dim”
« Last Edit: February 20, 2008, 01:06:25 pm by DannyD »
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Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #126 on: February 20, 2008, 10:59:17 am »
Ah! "The Trucks for Jews" episode. Yorky berates me for not mentioning this item in the Rescue Committees agenda. Well sorry about that but I am far from complete about this affair, trying to buy time for better information to come to hand.

Translation......I haven't been able to find anything useful on my usual website but I'll cast around for a while yet until I discover a fact or two that can be made to support my pre-existing theory.

First impression is how ridicules it all sounds.

In the meantime I'll just say it sounds 'ridiculous'.

Carry On........



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Offline DannyD

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #127 on: February 20, 2008, 11:35:49 am »
I never accused you of brevity Dan...I wish I could.

But at the same time a proper reply has to mean something more than recycling chunks of www.marxistconspiracy.org

You keep going on about the "non person" Rudolf  Vrba. I've already put you right on that in some detail. Christ, I've even got a copy of his memoir in front of me now, with a glowing - one might say - fulsome preface by Sir Martin Gilbert, that doyen of 'Zionist history'!

Log off from www.bitterandtwistedantiJewishrants.org and engage your brain for once Dan.....it may be painful at first but honestly, it's a pleasure after a while.

Tell me Yorky of all the writers I quote name the Marxist out of them

Ben Hecht? Raul Hilberg? Ruth Linn? Hannah Arendt? Rudolph Vrba? Joel Brand? And on and on.

 I think there are two who I have used minutely in this whole discourse. Lennie Brenner a Left Wing Jew and Tony Greenstein another Left wing Jew.

As regards Rudolph Vrba you couldn’t set yourself straight, you do blow your ego up a great deal don’t you son. Vbra was for nearly 50 years omitted from The Holocaust history, I don’t say that, the women who fought hard to get his book printed in Hebrew and published in Israel, Ruth Linn says so, her story is also worth a read, not for you Yorky, this has words in it and is not a figment of your imagination, like the websites you paste links to

She also fought to get him a degree, why would she need to do this? Why would she need to write a book telling of the pressure and opposition she came under trying to get a Jewish hero to be recognised in Israel .

Was she telling lies Yorky? Was she a Red Under The Bed? She is a top academic herself in Israel. She was The Dean of Haifa University from 2001- 2006, she is a Professor with a Doctorate of Education from Boston University in the USA. She is also a woman with very clear values. One of the many Jews within and outside of Israel that will break down The Holocaust Industry and allow more youth to study their real history.

Ruth Linn and her like put me straight Yorky, you just try desperately to cover up their achievements.

P.S. That greates historian that ever lived Hilberg, what credit does he give Vrba, just the one line, a footnote at the bottom of page 1213 buried under a mountain of what could be for all we are told counter claims.

"51 Rudolph Vrba and Alan Bestic I cannot Forgive New York 1964 pp244-246"

he then goes on to tell the reader... Yet another inconspicuous event occured .... laving us to believe what Vrba has said is " inconspicuous"

what a tribute to a hero eh!
« Last Edit: February 20, 2008, 12:31:42 pm by DannyD »
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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #128 on: February 20, 2008, 11:53:46 am »
Translation......I haven't been able to find anything useful on my usual website but I'll cast around for a while yet until I discover a fact or two that can be made to support my pre-existing theory.

In the meantime I'll just say it sounds 'ridiculous'.

Carry On........


No Yorky that is an admission that something just aint right with this whole story and needs proper investigation ......Oh! by the way talking about proper inveatigation  I looked through Hilberg’s trilogy again last night another quote from you isn’t in there,

The rescue-train wasn’t Kastner’s only success. The other concession he extracted from Eichmann was on 7th June and involved the transfer of 18,000 Hungarian Jews to Vienna where the SS had alerted Eichmann to a shortage of slave labour. Once again, Kastner had somehow to raise the money to buy their ‘release’ (among other things he promised Swiss tractors which never arrived). Many of the Jews died in the factories, others died in Belsen, but the majority did survive (Hilberg vol 2 pp 846-47)

I know I have the latest version and the page numbers will change but looked right through this section “Deportations” that your quote should come under.

And I still can’t see the noisy train quotes I asked you to clarify. Spend more time answering those in stead of school boy quips eh! There again f they do exist they are probably taken from Kasztner’s own notes.

Why have you never given the proper sources to Hilberg’s quotes Yorky? It is common practice isn’t it, to give the original source, sometimes as a rider, but usually just the original, the accredited  source. Another black mark against your honour I am afraid, so many now you could be a smudge on a school boys thumb
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Offline straw_donkey

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #129 on: February 20, 2008, 09:05:10 pm »
So Danny -

Regarding Hilberg's books  -I found this for you

Last update - 22:57 28/08/2007     
 

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=898045

 
The Holocaust scholar who was hard on the Jews 
 
By Dan Michman 
 
Tags: Vermont, Holocaust scholar   

Raul Hilberg, a professor of political science at the University of Vermont, died on Saturday, August 4. He was certainly one of the most influential scholars in Holocaust research in the world, despite the fact that his list of publications was relatively short. But his relationship with Israeli Holocaust research was ambivalent.

Hilberg fled as a child with his parents from Vienna to the U.S. after the Anschluss (the annexation of Austria by Nazi Germany in 1938). He was recruited to the U.S. army at the age of 18, toward the end of the Second World War, and took part in the last American campaign on German soil. Afterward, he started his studies at Columbia University in New York, attending courses taught by another refugee scholar, Franz Neumann. Through Neumann's mediation, Hilberg became a member of the U.S. War Documentation project, and thus encountered much German-captured documentation. He became intrigued by these documents and by the modes of functioning of the Third Reich as revealed by them, and when he had to decide on a topic for his PhD-thesis in 1950, to be supervised by Neumann, he chose to focus on the bureaucracy of Nazi Germany.

The major question propelling Holocaust research in its initial post-war years was: How could a modern state and society turn into a barbaric, though highly efficient, slaughtering machine? At that time, the term Holocaust was not yet in use (shoah was used only in the Jewish Yishuv in pre-state Palestine), and the murder of the Jews was perceived as one, although perhaps the most extreme, of many atrocities carried out by the Nazis.
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Hilberg finished his thesis in 1954, and later expanded on it; the updated version, which became the masterly comprehensive study of the Holocaust, "The Destruction of the European Jews," was published in 1961.

Indeed, some comprehensive histories of the Holocaust had been published before - by Leon Poliakov (1951), Gerald Reitlinger (1953) and Joseph Tenenbaum (1956). But Hilberg's magnum opus served as the basic introductory study for all who entered the field of Holocaust studies with an analytical and scholarly approach.

The strengths - as well as the flaws - of Hilberg's study lie in two facts: First, he approached the Holocaust from a political scientist's point of view, not as a historian; as such, he viewed the Holocaust as one clearly defined unit, stretching over the years in which the Nazis ruled Germany, 1933-1945, and tried to present a neat model. Second, he focused on the bureaucracy of the state. Hilberg, a highly analytical scholar, with an enormous body of knowledge and an outstanding memory, succeeded in depicting a very clear picture of the bureaucracy of a modern, highly-developed state, which adapted itself to the vague goals set by the leader (Hitler).

The linear path of history

In his eyes, Hitler played actually a minor role in the development, because he himself did not know at the beginning (in 1933) where to lead the movement. Anti-Semitism was not new, and racism existed also elsewhere, such as in the United States. It was the bureaucracy that made the difference. It turned into a "machinery of destruction" (the key term developed by Hilberg), which escalated the whole process - in a linear path, through clear bureaucratic stages (definition of "the Jews," expropriation, concentration, extermination) - from vague beginnings to the enormous killing project which was symbolized by Auschwitz.

From this perspective, the lesson of the Holocaust was universal and related to the dangers of the modern state, which should find ways to balance and control the almost unlimited power and ability of the bureaucracy of the centralized government.

An interesting example of the functioning of an apparently unimportant bureaucratic institution was presented in another study in the 1970s: "German Railways, Jewish Souls." In this study, Hilberg showed how Reichsbahn officials made the deportation system function smoothly and efficiently (for instance: They offered SS clients transportation rate reductions if more Jews were pushed into trains, and exempted children under 4 from payment), and thus contributed their share.

With the rapid development of Holocaust research from the second half of the 1960s, Hilberg's book became a "must" in academic courses on the topic at universities. He therefore published an expanded 3-volume version in 1985, which was translated into many languages. In 2004 he published a third revised version. In the updated and revised versions he added much new material, but never changed his basic interpretation. He also hardly related to historiographical disputes, which affected Holocaust research. Even if the focus of his research was the machinery of destruction, it was he who introduced the categorization of three "players" in the Holocaust arena, which became widely used: perpetrators, victims and bystanders.

The fate of his book in Israel was twisted. Shortly after finishing the manuscript of his book, he presented it to Yad Vashem for publication (1957), through the mediation of Philip Friedman, perhaps the most eminent Holocaust historian at the time. Yad Vashem, headed by its chairman, historian Prof. Ben-Zion Dinur, and its director, Dr. Jozeph Melkman (later: Michman, father of this writer), first agreed, but later declined. The reason was not the quality of the whole work - it was evaluated as the best comprehensive study to date - but Hilberg's evaluation of Jewish behavior vis-a-vis the Nazis, especially the Judenrate (Jewish Councils), whom he saw as a cog in the destruction machine.

He had written that "if we look at the whole Jewish reaction pattern, we notice that in its two salient features it is an attempt to avert action and, failing that, automatic compliance with orders. Why is this so? Why did the Jews act in this way? They hoped that somehow the German drive would spend itself. This hope was founded on a two-thousand-year-old experience. In exile, the Jews had always been in a minority; they had always been in danger; but they had learned that they could avert danger and survive destruction by placating and appeasing their enemies. This experience was so ingrained in the Jewish consciousness as to achieve the force of law. A two-thousand-year-old lesson could not be unlearned; the Jews could not make the switch [to resistance when their leadership realized] that the modern machine-line destruction process would engulf European Jewry."

Once rejected, later embraced

Hilberg had grown up in a Zionist revisionist family and youth movement (adherents of Jabotinsky) in Vienna, and his view of Jewish behavior in the diaspora, as well as of the Jewish Councils, was in the 1950s the dominant one in Israel too.

He had hoped that the major Holocaust memorial site in the Jewish state would be the first place to accept his book.

Therefore, Hilberg could not understand the decision of the Yad Vashem historians, who thought his was an unfair generalization of Jewish behavior; he felt insulted and remained critical of Yad Vashem for many decades to come. No other Israeli publisher took it upon himself to publish the book.

Later on, a second polemic would emerge. Hilberg was a scholar of documents, mainly of German ones. He also published Adam Czerniakow's diary (together with Yad Vashem's Joseph Kermisz), but remained extremely critical of the value of survivor testimonies until his death (see his Sources of Holocaust Research, 2001).

Yad Vashem and Hebrew University historian Prof. Israel Gutman, a participant of the revolt of the Warsaw ghetto and a survivor of Auschwitz, was very much in favor of using them, although with critical examination. They directly and indirectly clashed on this on several occasions.

Nevertheless, in spite of what has recently been claimed by some, Hilberg was never "banned," neither did he sever contacts with Israeli scholars. He wrote several articles for Yad Vashem publications and used its resources, and his book was (and is) used in Holocaust education at Israeli universities.

Hilberg himself was invited to Yad Vashem several times, and participated in its international conferences on the Jewish Leadership (1977) and on the history of Holocaust historiography (2004).

On the last occasion, the hall was packed during his concluding talk, which was attended by about 500 people. Immediately after that last conference, Yad Vashem decided, together with several universities and research institutions, to finally undertake the translation of Hilberg's book, and he responded enthusiastically. While working on the manuscript, he constantly made updates and responded to questions raised by the Yad Vashem experts; the Hebrew version, which will hopefully be ready in the forthcoming year, will therefore be the most updated and precise version.

Unfortunately, he will not be present at the closing of the circle, to which he so much looked forward.

The writer is a professor of modern Jewish history at Bar-Ilan University and chief historian at Yad Vashem

And here is the translation -from Hebrew of an interview with Hilberg and with Prof. Dan Mekman, the son of Yossi Melkman who the head of Yad Vashem in its first years - sorry if there are similiar paragraphs  - I chose to translate it as a whole).

http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/pages/ShArtPE.jhtml?itemNo=508416&contrassID=2&subContrassID=2&sbSubContrassID=0

And so the Outcast Holocaust Historian is cleared

Yair Sheleg, Haaretz

46 Years after Yad Vashem had refused to publish the book of Prof. Raul Hilberg, a researcher in the field of Holocaust History, he enetertained him, as a distinguished lecturer. But the debate about the guilt of the Yudenrats and the true number of those who had perished in the Holocasut continues in full power.
 
This was indeed a remarkable closure: at  a conference on the subject of "Research of the Holocaust and its connections", which took place last week in Yad Vashem commemorating 50 years fot the instituition, Prof. Raul Hilberg was invited from the US to be one of two speakers in the prestigious closing session. In 1958, this institute had rejected the offer to publish Hilberg' fundamental study book 'The Extermintaion of the European Jews' under Yad Vashem publications. Druing the ywears that followed, the scholars of Yad Vashem had continued to argue bitterlt with the book; So, even nine years ago, when Hilberg had published his autobiographical book, no a single book of his had been translated to Hebrew.


what was it so upsetting for Yad Vashem in Hilberg's book? Two main claims were raised; The first: Hilberg, and Austrian born Jew (1926), had immifgrated to the US on the day WWII had started, was not a Hebrew speaker, nor Yiddish speaker nor East-european languages, and wrote his book on the basis of German sources only. The second that had angered Yad Vashem was that in spite of fact he only knew German, he did not hesitate to criticise in his book the function of the Jewish communities, and the Yudenrats in particular, as accomplices for the German extermination machine and claimed that their cooperation was in continuation of the traditional policy of the Diaspora Jews against decrees who effected them.

In his lecture last week, who had tried to objectively anlise the developement of the Holocaust reasearch, Hilberg reffered to the claim about the exclusiveness of German sources in a somewhat apologetic way. He explained this based on the fact that the main initial sources were the thousand German documents the allies had assembled during the Nuernberg trials. He also claims that 'The victims had no idea of what was going on outside the Ghetto walls (which Yorky had obviously been able to show was not the case at least in some cases, if not in most cases.)

This argument was developled in much less apologetic way, at an interview for the newspaper: "It is obvious that the study of the Holocaust cannot rely solely on German sources, but I still believe they should be the main source. Eventually, the Jew enclosed within the Ghetto walls had no idea what was going on around him. Those who planned the extermination and had executed it were the Germans, so if we want to write about the extermination process it must mainly be done from their point of view."

And of course - this coming from German sources.



The Germans were afraid
 
He also sticks to his criticism of the communities and the Yudenrats. "The Nazis had no idea about the Jewish communities they reached, They had no list of the residents and their numbers, the Yudenrats supplied them with that. They asked even the Ghetto maps from the Jews. Somebody had to give them the information, otherwise it would have been chaos, and the Germans hated chaos. The strategy was minimizing the damage done, as always Diaspora Jews tried to defend the 'Hard Core' of the community, even in the case of giving in others; Like JEws used to send the 'simple' kids to the army during th Tzar's decree instead of the Yeshiva boys."

I have no argument with this idea - but this is exactly why some Jews had previously adopted Zionism - hundreds of years of letting the Goyim get away with it, even before the Holocaust.

Read this carefully Danny...

With this in mind he does have reservations about the words of the Jewish German philosapher Hanna Ardent, who in her book "Eichmann in Jerusalem' was relying on his research to claim that the Yudenrats had a part in responsiblity for extermination. Hilberg: "I do not blame them with responsiblity for the extermination. It is foolish to think that the Yudenrats had and option to prevent the extermination. You could however ask if the Yudenrats could not, and Jewish commuinities in general, save more people. If they wouuld have refused to cooperate, the extermination would have gone ahead anyway, but might have been more difficult to be executed. It is hard to accept the facts that Germans had it so easy to execute the extermination: In most Ghettos there were about 60 guards and about 100 local Jewish Policemen. A threat to the Germans could have helped, since they were afraid of any threat."


An amazing evidence of that he found in a research made by DR. Yitzhak Arad (previously the head of Yad Vashem and himself a Holocaust survivor.), who wrote about a postcard sent by an anonimous Jew to one of the German newspapers where he wished:"may your child suffer like children die and suffer.". "The Gestapo", says Hilberg, "had spent weeks to locate the man. A huge effort for a tiny postcard. So they were afraid the threat even fron one Jew. That goes to show how they were afraid of any threat."

It is interesting that it is the 'Diaspora' Historion critisises so the behaviour of the Communities in the Holocaust, a criticism the Israeli society had grown accustomed to restraint. That would make you think about the reason for rejection of his book by Yad Vashem during the fifties - seemingly years where the Israeli society could have used his research to 'negate the Diaspora' that was so common back then, And indeed, Hilberg himself was wondering and still wonders as to why his research was rejected, 'When even Dinur (the first head of Yad Vashem), said even more extreme things about the behaviour iof the communities than I did. His explnation is that "after all, the establishment here did'nt want the youngsters to think th the the 'Diaspora Jews' are cowards. After all those cowards send us a lot of money. And mainly because the Diaspora Jews werent different in essence than those who came to Israel. Those are people form the same places."

Mechmen says that the problem 'Yad Vashem' with Hilberg's book was not that it was unsuitable for publishing. "Despite the division of opinion we had with it, it is indeed an important book. The problem is that at the time there was no comprehensive book in Hebrew about the History of the Holocaust, and we were afraid that publishing his book as such a 'first book' would set a feeling that this is THE authoritative book, or Yad Vashem's point of view when dealing with the research of the holocaust. Why, if so, wasn't it published until today? according to Mechman, because of Inertia. "during the conference we talked to him abouit publishing his book in Yad Vashem soon' he says.

Hilberg blames his critics for countinuing to attack his work throught the years with claims that may have been valid in 1961. "This is 2004, you cannot criticise mee based on what I wrote then." Then he says the the allegations about ignoring Jewish resources is ridiculous: "After all, I spent six years on the diaries of Adam Czerniakoff (The leader of the Warsaw Ghetto Yudenrats who had commited suicide)."

If he would have re-writing his book based on Jewish and other sources, who he be changing anything fundemental? "No. I would have of course included more details and insights about the Ghetto and German beaurocracy, and would have tried to deepen the analysis, but nothing substantial. In fact, toda i Believe I understand the behaviour of the Jewish community, it's the German I cannot understand. They say the extermination was a result of Antisemitism. That's nonsesne. Some of the people who had participated in the extermination were married to Jews and had no arguments against Jews. Even Hitler's hate to Jews is unclear to this day. HE had no complaints about a specific Jew. Eventually, says Hilberg, it seems that the extermination process did not neccesarily need Antisemite motivation but was relying more or less on german Beaurocracy."

5 or 6 millions?


Those are exactly he claims the upset the Yad Vashem fellas all over again, Mechmen says: "Hilberg did not write his assertion as a Historian but as a political science expert (which is what he studied originally), whose expertise is the study or organisations. And as such he reaches conclusions about a very systematic and organised extermination process, which have not factual base. He speaks, for example, about a beaurocratic process that begins by defining 'the mission', then dispossession and finally extermination. But in fact, in many places, dispossession began before the definition."

Hilberg, on his end, does not appreciate too the resarch being done in Yad Vashem. When asked about the contribution of the institutionto the resarch opf the holocaust, he says ironically: "yes, they've gave a lot of details. The most important thing they did was assembly of the documents. Actually, there was a researcher way back in 1967, who had told me they should not be writing books. Their contribution should be colleting all the documents. But when it comes to research, even in the numbers they are no precise. They talk about six million, and me, as a person that had studied numbers profoundly, say that there were five. But if they admit it, they will need to change it all, even their emblem." The emblem is a memorial Menorah with six branches.

Mechmen says in response that 'the exact number of the deceased will never be known, but the figure of five million is certainly not accepted in research today. Two teams working seperately about this during the eighties, an Israeli one and a German one came to the assesment of 5.6 million (the German team) to 5.8 millions (the Israeli team)

What does Hilberg think about comparing the Holocaust to other historical events? "In principle, I object to that too, since theoratically you can compare anything to anything else. I hold a letter from one of Al Gore's assistants, asking if you could call the Kosovo massacre a Holocaust. In fact, not only was it not Holocaust, it wasn't even genocide. On the other hand, my objection is not absolute. I myself had previously compared the holocaust to the massacre in Rwanda because there also there was a distinctive component of genocide. You should also remember that Richard Lichtheim, the man who was the first to alert the mass extermination (As the representative of the Jewish Agency in Geneva during the War), would not have been able to recognise what was going on unless he was able to compare it ti the Armenian massacre in 1915, a massacre he knew very well as someone who was in turkey during WWI. So, to be able to compare, one must be very proficient about the events being compared, and very few people are so proficient."



So - Not the whole truth is it Danny Quite a character, and strangely, a very bitter man.




That took some time, and I do have some comments, but anyway, I have an exam tommorow (about another Austrian Jew, named Arnold Schoenberg) - I'll get back on the subject soon.

« Last Edit: February 20, 2008, 11:25:33 pm by straw_donkey »
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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #130 on: February 20, 2008, 10:30:08 pm »
Interesting, straw-donkey. Hilberg was undoubtedly a difficult man. But a brilliant one. The debate on the precise role of the Judenrats in the Nazi-occupied Europe goes on. Not surprisingly, it can be a very emotional one.

There's been a terrific amount of historical research on Judenrats since Hilberg wrote his book (and Arendt made her brilliant but flawed denunciations in 'Eichmann in Jerusalem'). Two broad conclusions can be drawn.

1. There was no standard of behaviour to which all Judenrats conformed. The best (in Minsk) worked with the  underground (communist in this case) to rescue Jews and perform spot resistance. The worst (in Lodz) behaved like 'little Hitlers'.

2. Judenrats comprised all sorts of people. Zionists may have been represented on some councils but they were far from being preponderant. That's important, in the context of our little discussion, because DannyD wants us to believe that it was 'the Zionists' alone who collaborated with Hitler. That's just bad history.

'Collaboration' is a stupid word to describe organised Jewish attempts to moderate Nazi violence or humanise the ghettoes. There was very little collaboration between Jewish groups and Nazism (certainly far less than there was between Nazis and Poles or Nazis and Communists). But if, like an idiot, you're going to use the word then at at least have the guts to admit that 'Zionists' were no more culpable than other organised Jewish groups - indeed, they were probably less so.

Now....something was troubling you, wasn't it DanielD?
Now we come to Yorky’s quotes from Hilberg about the noisy trains out of Kistracas (Hilberg vol 2 p. 848).

Well I have the 3rd edition so the page numbers differ, but no sweat, there are only two listings for Kistarcsa in Hilberg’s index both under the chapter DEPORTATIONS, Guess what Yorky old Hilberg goes into details about trains leaving there but nothing about noisy trains waking up the neighbours

Can't you friggin' read? Kosice, I said, not 'Kistracas' (wherever that is!). This is what Hilberg says on the page I've already cited (his source is an affidavit by the German consul in Kosice)

"In Kosice the trains had to leave at night, for the railway yard in the brick factory where the Jews had been kept was connected with the main line by a track that bisected one of the city's main streets. The population often heard the crying of women and children who could not stand the suffocating heat of the cars".

Anything else Dan?

 
Oh! by the way talking about proper inveatigation  I looked through Hilberg’s trilogy again last night another quote from you isn’t in there,

The rescue-train wasn’t Kastner’s only success. The other concession he extracted from Eichmann was on 7th June and involved the transfer of 18,000 Hungarian Jews to Vienna where the SS had alerted Eichmann to a shortage of slave labour. Once again, Kastner had somehow to raise the money to buy their ‘release’ (among other things he promised Swiss tractors which never arrived). Many of the Jews died in the factories, others died in Belsen, but the majority did survive (Hilberg vol 2 pp 846-47)

I know I have the latest version and the page numbers will change but looked right through this section “Deportations” that your quote should come under.

'Kinell mate. What's up with you? The quote starts like this:

"On June 7th 1944 the mayor of Vienna, the Honorary SS-Brigadefuhrer Blaschke, requested Kaltenbrunner to assign Hungarian Jews to labour-starved factories in the Viennese area..."

I'm not quoting anymore because I'd just be repeating myself. I realise that it's a strange experience for you to come across solid history as opposed to ideological rants....



.....but you've got to figure the basics of reading a book out yourself. And if you can't, I strongly advise you not to parade your inability on RAWK.   
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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #131 on: February 21, 2008, 09:00:07 am »

Now....something was troubling you, wasn't it DanielD?
Can't you friggin' read? Kosice, I said, not 'Kistracas' (wherever that is!). This is what Hilberg says on the page I've already cited (his source is an affidavit by the German consul in Kosice)

"In Kosice the trains had to leave at night, for the railway yard in the brick factory where the Jews had been kept was connected with the main line by a track that bisected one of the city's main streets. The population often heard the crying of women and children who could not stand the suffocating heat of the cars".

Anything else Dan?

 

Sorry but that piece has no mention of noisy trains or Kistarcsa does it, but this bit further on in the same post does.


Finally, there was the matter of the April 27th-28th  advanced deportations. On these two days the Nazis performed a kind of dress-rehearsal for the transport of the Hungarian Jews to Poland. Over 4000 Jews from Kistarcsa were rounded up and stacked into freight trains destined for Auschwitz (Hilberg vol 2 p. 836). By pure coincidence this was the day that Vrba and Wetzler dictated their ‘Auschwitz Protocol’. But could it be that these  trains set off without any incident? That’s very unlikley. One of the freights, from the brickyard of Kosice, proved to be something of a PR disaster for the Nazis. The freights had set off in the middle of the day with 70-80 people packed into each car and a single bucket of water between them. It was a hot day and by the time the freight rumbled through the town centre the women and children inside were said to be wailing so loudly that ordinary Hungarians going about their business could hear them. Fearing the secret was out the Nazis ordered that future transports should set off at night when things were less busy (Hilberg vol 2 p. 848).


It just might be Hilberg edited it out or changed it in some way,Tell you what do us a favour scan the whole page as a photo stick it up on here and I will get a better idea of where to find it. Same with the other missing Hilberg quote….Cheers …see you later :wave
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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #132 on: February 21, 2008, 10:54:10 am »
Sorry but that piece has no mention of noisy trains or Kistarcsa does it

What kind of "noise" do you want fella? This not good enough for ya? "Crying women and children in the suffocating heat of the cars"....."often heard by the population" of Kosice. That's K-O-S-I-C-E (again) not Kistarcsa.


It just might be Hilberg edited it out or changed it in some way


It might be.

Or it might be that youre just a f*ckin' Grade-A Moron  :wave
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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #133 on: February 21, 2008, 12:34:18 pm »
Hmmm
Seems to me that you two would be better off agreeing to disagree.

I don't see a resolution here  :P

(Although the posts are informative, interesting and extremely detailed. Thanks, both of you.)
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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #134 on: February 21, 2008, 01:08:33 pm »
Straw Donkey,


I knew a lot about Hilberg before your post but interesting stuff there none the less. You should read Norman Finkelsteins obituary of Hilberg on his Website. He is a lot more sympathetic...http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/

 I knew Hilberg was banned in Israel I said that from the outset, if you don’t do it their way it doesn’t get done.. I am not bitter, and certainly not about Hilberg, But I do not as some on here think he is a god. His work is flawed that is for sure, but that is understandable He says in the Prefaces to the three editions of his work how he arrived at his facts and figures. He did it through searching inside many databases files and documents that were available at the time So he relies  on what others have put down on paper, do you agree?. His use of Kasztner’s documents shows clearly this is not a perfect exercise. but it was all he had to go on, given his own remit.

You are a student; you research a subject and use material from others in good faith, never really knowing them to be actual clear facts do you. The most comprehensive studies are those that go further into detail and confirm the first data or deny it, then the process starts all over again. You will also understand that historians conform to a code were they give credit to their research. They are either in footnotes or form part of a broader section at the end of each chapter or the book itself. Were there are conflicting data or some history attached to the quotes it is common practice to give both sides and an explanation of the history. That is if you want what you are putting before the public to be taken seriously as a honest work of history not fiction.

Hilberg in the main adheres to this code of practice, but certain items in his trilogy concerning our discussion on here shows his halo placed upon his head by others slips, first with his ever so brief item on Rudolph Vrba, and his extensive use without comment of Kasztner’s documents. But the criticism that he used German only data is for me anyway unfounded. He defends himself poorly on this matter during the piece you posted. Again his use of Kasztner’s Hungarian documents and the many from the other occupied countries tells us a different story. Plus the massive archive and notes from the US authorities in Germany and beyond he cites makes the accusation false.

I take note of  the text concerning Hannah Arendt and also applaud your honesty in giving the full content of that passage. Some on here chop and change words, a phrase here and there and invent whole passages claiming they are from a reputable source.

 I have read Eichmann in Jerusalem and they are not poles apart in their thoughts on the question. Where Arendt goes further is in identifying that Zionists were the Nazis favoured group to become the leaders of the Judenrates, that is the reason why like Hilberg and Rudolph Vrba she was kept from the Israeli public’s eye.Until recently that is when Like the other two writers her book was published for the first time in Hebrew. In the Introduction to The Penguin Classic version Amos Elon says

In Israel, where the Holocaust was long seen as simply the culmination of a long unbroken line of anti-Semitism, from pharaoh and Nebuchadnezzar to Hitler and Arafat — David Ben-Gurion, the architect of the 1960 show trial wanted it that way — the growing interest among young people in this book suggests a search for a different view. A new Hebrew translation was recently published to considerable acclaim. In the past, the difficulty of many Israelis to accept Arendt's book ran par¬allel to another difficulty — foreseen by Arendt early on — the diffi¬culty of confronting, morally and politically, the plight of the dispossessed Palestinians. The Palestinians bore no responsibility for the collapse of civilization in Europe but ended up being pun¬ished for it.(Eichmann in Jerusalem introduction p viii)

It is this principle leads me to fight my corner over the issues of Zionism in the Holocaust. Not from bitterness but out of a desire not only in helping the truth to be brought to a wider audience, but to stand alongside that youth who Elon sites, who are fighting against massive odds. For them the prize is to become leaders of their people and take their historical roll alongside the fighters for justice in the international society.

Sadly parts of your post. your attack on me, falls into line with some of Yorky’s methods, “don’t deal with what is said concentrate on the writer, get personal, throw enough insults, and the real questions will either get hidden or lost. When all else fails throw down the Anti Semite card that has always done the tick in the past”

Don’t go down that road, open yourself up to the objective deny the subjective. Reading Arendt, Vrba, Finkelstein, Linn and the many others who put forward a different idea on Jewish history will make you a better person. It is not treason to the Jewish faith in fact it is its opposite, you carry forward the real history of Judaism. Wallow in the swamp and you will never be a whole rounded scholar

 I respect Hilberg for the enormous work he put before the public but again I have to say he is and wasn’t ever perfect, the power of his work lays in  the amount  of data that is in there.

You can call me a cynic but I am not the only one (should make a song out of that) But I fear when Historians sit down at The Holocaust Industries Head Office Yad Vashem and go through their works to be edited. I fear the pressure to at last get the works out to the Hebrew speaking public in Israel would influence what was and wasn’t changed in the book.

I have posted earlier I first came across Hilberg in  Marxist classes in my teens shortly after the 1st edition was printed. Of course it was never used as a political thesis more on the historical facts of how the 3rd Reich was structured and the ecomic details of the plunder of Jewish labour. That for many is still the best part of Hilberg’s book,  Adam Tooze’s  recent The Wages of Destruction surpass it on the economic aspect of the 3rd Reich, but the complex Nazi leadership system was a maze until he unravelled it all. I was given the latest edition as a present from my daughters, It is a long time between reading both editions but I am certain that Hilberg changed quite a lot. But I don’t have the time to compare so it was interesting to note from the article you post that there was a major “overhaul” of his works.

The question of the Judenrates I will take up with Yorky, after he furnishes the pages from Hilberg I asked for. Best of luck in your studies.
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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #135 on: February 21, 2008, 01:16:22 pm »
What kind of "noise" do you want fella? This not good enough for ya? "Crying women and children in the suffocating heat of the cars"....."often heard by the population" of Kosice. That's K-O-S-I-C-E (again) not Kistarcsa.

It might be.

Or it might be that youre just a f*ckin' Grade-A Moron  :wave

So are you going to scan and post then ?
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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #136 on: February 21, 2008, 01:45:00 pm »
Hmmm
Seems to me that you two would be better off agreeing to disagree.

I don't see a resolution here  :P

(Although the posts are informative, interesting and extremely detailed. Thanks, both of you.)

Julio it isn't a dog fight, well for me it isn't, and I have learnt a few things here also, after I filtered out the personal crap that is. I think it has evolved into a good educational tool.

I hope many of you go and read the books cited in the thread, or at least gain more knowledge on the subjects. But the whole question of Zionism’s re-writing of history has only been touched on, it forms a major part of Israeli life today. It also cannot be separated from the plight of the Palestinians, you cannot jump in and out of history when and where it suites you.

How can Israel in the name of all Jews and that is what it claims it represents, treat Palestinians the way they do?

How can they use the same methods The Nazis used against them in Europe against a more downtrodden and deprived people?

How can it justify ripping up decades, centuries even of peace between Jew, Arab and Christian in Palestine ?

How can it Justify the re-writing of the Hebrew laws and scriptures that claim only the Messiah will lead his people to the promised land?

The history of Zionism has to be understood in detail to see that it is not the natural, historical or legitimate leadership of the Jews. Judaism was stolen and used cynically and with malice aforethought by a politically corrupt gang of Right Wing Nationalist.

The Holocaust was also stolen and used before during and after the fact by the same gangsters to gain the leadership of the Jews and force through with terror on the one hand and political subterfuge on the other, the deformed Jewish sate of Israel.  

The thread should continue to evolve and educate, that is one of the reasons for having this type of message board isn’t it?
« Last Edit: February 21, 2008, 02:09:18 pm by DannyD »
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Offline Julio

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #137 on: February 21, 2008, 01:58:01 pm »
The thread should continue to evolve and educate, that is one of the reasons for having this type of message board isn’t it?


Without a doubt. It just appeared to me that, as a result of both your and Yorky's numerous and extremely detailed posts, you both may have been starting to go around in circles, repeating the same arguments.

But who am I to presuppose? Keep it coming, if you dare!  :wave
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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #138 on: February 21, 2008, 08:29:14 pm »
I knew Hilberg was banned in Israel I said that from the outset, if you don’t do it their way it doesn’t get done.

But he isn't!

Before he died he lectured to packed audiences in Israel. In 1968 he was invited by Yad Vashem in Jersualem to edit the voluminous papers of Adam Czerniakow, a Jewish leader in Warsaw. For his revised edition of 'Destruction' he spent months in the archives there. Yiddish scholars based in Israel translated documents for him. 'Destruction' has been translated into Hebrew and published in Israel.

So you're wrong. Even though "you knew it from the outset".

Just like you were wrong about Rudolph Vrba, PhD University of Haifa. Even though you probably knew that "from the outset" too.

Israel has encouraged Hilberg's work, engaged with it and publicised it. For all its faults it provides a little island of intellectual freedom in an area drowning in state censorship and state oppression. You always make Israel out to be a Nazi state, which is obviously a despicable and provocative thing to say, as well as self-evidently absurd.

Personally, I'm outta this thread. It's reached it's terminus. You have been disabused, corrected, informed and enlightened.  And yet, miraculously, you haven't learned anything. You have stuck to what you were already knew "from the outset". That's quite an achievement. Well done.   ;D

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #139 on: February 22, 2008, 10:33:12 am »
But he isn't!

Before he died he lectured to packed audiences in Israel. In 1968 he was invited by Yad Vashem in Jersualem to edit the voluminous papers of Adam Czerniakow, a Jewish leader in Warsaw. For his revised edition of 'Destruction' he spent months in the archives there. Yiddish scholars based in Israel translated documents for him. 'Destruction' has been translated into Hebrew and published in Israel.

So you're wrong. Even though "you knew it from the outset".

Just like you were wrong about Rudolph Vrba, PhD University of Haifa. Even though you probably knew that "from the outset" too.

Israel has encouraged Hilberg's work, engaged with it and publicised it. For all its faults it provides a little island of intellectual freedom in an area drowning in state censorship and state oppression. You always make Israel out to be a Nazi state, which is obviously a despicable and provocative thing to say, as well as self-evidently absurd.

Personally, I'm outta this thread. It's reached it's terminus. You have been disabused, corrected, informed and enlightened.  And yet, miraculously, you haven't learned anything. You have stuck to what you were already knew "from the outset". That's quite an achievement. Well done.   ;D



More double talk from Yorky, his works were banned as he well knows were they published in Hebrew? No Was the English versions available in bookshops No. He was never banned,as a person would be banished I think. He was invited over to talks to selected audiences, but I doubt if he ever broached the subject of the Jewish Councils. Teachers used the English editions to discuss with their students aspects of the books ( never the Jewish Councils mind you) But Yorky gets his double talk from these guys, from Strawdonkeys post they all seem to have the same mind set.…

Nevertheless, in spite of what has recently been claimed by some, Hilberg was never "banned," neither did he sever contacts with Israeli scholars. He wrote several articles for Yad Vashem publications and used its resources, and his book was (and is) used in Holocaust education at Israeli universities.

His book was never published over there was it and never until recently in Hebrew. Was it. The Nazis used these soft techniques and double speak to deprive Jews of German citizenship.


Who and under what circumstances did Vrba get his doctorate, wasn’t it only after Ruth Linn the Dean of  Haifa University who fought like a tiger to get it for him, in spite of the opposition from your “mainstream” academics in Israel. We have been here before haven’t we, she herself wrote a book on the none person that was Vrba, His works were also banned for 50 years, , never printed in Israel never published in Hebrew, until Linn got it published in Hebrew through her university. Read Her book  Escaping Auschwitz: A Culture of Forgetting here is her website anyone interested can see her reviews and videos.  http://construct.haifa.ac.il/~rlinn/linn.htm  You claim to have read his book I am astounded you can have such views after reading it.

Same with Hannah Arendt and her Eichmann in Jerusalem, all these works dealt with the actions of the Jewish Councils during The Holocaust all of them and more banned. They all raised the questions about leadership and what its roll was with the Nazis in Europe.

Eichmanns show trial did its best to steer any evidence away fron the work of these Judenrats but of course in doing so they raised different questions, like how come nothing was said about them. Remember Lincoln Yorky about fooling people.

Oh! Yorky there is so much yet to debate, surely you will want to know what Arendt was banned for, why Vbra was banned, why the Holocaust Industry took off in the 60s, and what about Kasztner surely you are not going to drop him, your moral hero, who saved as many people as you have books in your library and I mean with all sincerity.

But hey one last thing before you close the door behind you scan and copy those pages from Hilberg for me, just an exercise to see if the editions are that different, you understand eh!
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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #140 on: February 22, 2008, 09:33:11 pm »
DannyD: You do not deserve the last word in this thread...

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #141 on: February 23, 2008, 11:48:39 am »
DannyD: You do not deserve the last word in this thread...


Then contribute more than this post does, deal with the issues, don't get personal, or abusive, contribute to the establishment of facts. site the original sources in any quotes you use, don't invent or alter them, in short be honest and focused on the debate.

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #142 on: February 23, 2008, 03:15:43 pm »

Then contribute more than this post does, deal with the issues, don't get personal, or abusive, contribute to the establishment of facts. site the original sources in any quotes you use, don't invent or alter them, in short be honest and focused on the debate.


Is I mentioned in my first post - it scares me that you believe the things you advocate to be the truth. That's not abusive or personal - well personal for me but has nothing to do with you as a person. The latter statement is IMO not abusive or personal either. I just don't want you to get the last word, that's all.

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #143 on: February 24, 2008, 01:38:37 am »
Is I mentioned in my first post - it scares me that you believe the things you advocate to be the truth. That's not abusive or personal - well personal for me but has nothing to do with you as a person. The latter statement is IMO not abusive or personal either. I just don't want you to get the last word, that's all.

What I am saying is take part in the debate but stick within the issues. Why do you fear what I post on here? They are not just my thought but represent a growing international view of what Israel represents. Do you live in Israel, is that why you are afraid?
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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #144 on: February 24, 2008, 01:46:18 am »
Primo Levi - If This Is A Man/The Truce       this book told me all I ever needed to know about the holocaust, and taught me a lot about humanity, too.

It's too easy to forget that the victims were real people, with real feelings and to lose one's focus in the whys and wherefores.

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #145 on: February 24, 2008, 04:44:07 pm »
Primo Levi - If This Is A Man/The Truce       this book told me all I ever needed to know about the holocaust, and taught me a lot about humanity, too.

It's too easy to forget that the victims were real people, with real feelings and to lose one's focus in the whys and wherefores.

I agree Spence, who has the right to decide who lives and dies and to make that decision purely on the subjective decision that one is more important to them than another is something The Nazis could understand and approve of themselves. In fact it was a major tool in controlling the Judenrats.

No wonder Eichmann held Kasztner in such esteem. “He would have made a good Gestapo man himself” The agreement was never based on an equal proposition, that has never been my argument, that idea it was  injected to deflect and confuse the reader from the agreement itself. It is true to say that both sides received what they wished. The outrage surrounding it is those whose lives depended on this agreement, the majority of the 475,000 Jews, were never a party to it except as victims.

Hannah Arendt in Eichmann in Jerusalem, comes towards the “moral dilemma” used as an excuse by the apologists, from the opposite and for me and Judge Halevi the correct direction than they.

------------- --------------------------

(p117 - 118) Eichmann expected—and received, to a truly extraordinary degree—their cooperation. This was "of course the very cornerstone" of everything he did, as it had been the very cornerstone of his activities in Vienna. Without Jewish help in administrative and police work—the final rounding up of Jews in Berlin was, as I have mentioned, done entirely by Jewish police—there would have been either complete chaos or an impossibly severe drain on German manpower. ("There can be no doubt that, without the cooperation of the victims, it would hardly have been pos¬sible for a few thousand people, most of whom, moreover, worked in offices, to liquidate many hundreds of thousands of other people. . . . Over the whole way to their deaths the Polish Jews got to see hardly more than a handful of Ger¬mans." Thus R. Pendorf in the publication mentioned above.

To a Jew this role of the Jewish leaders in the destruction of their own people is undoubtedly the darkest chapter of the whole dark story. It had been known about before, but it has now been exposed for the first time in all its pathetic and sordid detail by Raul Hilberg, whose standard work The Destruction of the European Jews I mentioned before. In the matter of cooperation, there was no distinction between the highly assimilated Jewish communities of Central and Western Europe and the Yiddish-speaking masses of the East. In Amsterdam as in Warsaw, in Berlin as in Budapest, Jewish officials could be trusted to compile the lists of persons and of their property, to secure money from the deportees to defray the expenses of then- deportation and extermination, to keep track of vacated apartments, to supply police forces to help seize Jews and get them on trains, until, as a last gesture, they handed over the assets of the Jewish community in good order for final confiscation.

They distributed the Yellow Star badges, and some¬times, as in Warsaw, "the sale of the armbands became a regular business; there were ordinary armbands of cloth and fancy plastic armbands which were washable." In the Nazi-inspired, but not Nazi-dictated, manifestoes they issued, we still can sense how they enjoyed their new power—"The Central Jewish Council has been granted the right of absolute disposal over all Jewish spiritual and material wealth and over all Jewish manpower," as the first announcement of the Budapest Council phrased it. We know how the Jewish officials felt when they became instruments of murder—like captains "whose ships were about to sink and who succeeded in bringing them safe to port by casting overboard a great part of their precious cargo"; like saviours who "with a hundred victims save a thousand people, with a thousand ten thousand."

The truth was even more gruesome. Dr. Kastner, in Hungary, for instance, saved exactly 1,684 people with approximately 476,000 victims. In order not to leave the selection to "blind fate," "truly holy principles" were needed "as the guiding force of the weak human hand which puts down on paper the name of the unknown person and with this decides his life or death." And whom did these "holy principles" single out for salvation? Those "who had worked all their lives for the zibur [com¬munity]"—i.e., the functionaries—and the "most prominent Jews," as Kastner says in his report.

No one bothered to swear the Jewish officials to secrecy; they were voluntary "bearers of secrets," either in order to assure quiet and prevent panic, as in Dr. Kastner's case, or out of "humane" considerations, such as that "living in the expectation of death by gassing would only be the harder," as in the case of Dr. Leo Baeck, former Chief Rabbi of Berlin. During the Eichmann trial, one witness pointed out the unfortunate consequences of this kind of "humanity"—people volunteered for deportation from Theresienstadt (The camp for the privileged) to Auschwitz and denounced those who tried to tell them the truth as being "not sane."

We know the physiognomies of the Jewish leaders during the Nazi period very well; they ranged all the way from Chaim Rumkowski, Eldest of the Jews in Lodz, called Chaim I, who issued currency notes bearing his signature and postage stamps engraved with his por¬trait, and who rode around hi a broken-down horse-drawn carriage; through Leo Baeck, scholarly, mild-mannered, highly educated, who believed Jewish policemen would be "more gentle and helpful" and would "make the ordeal easier" (whereas in fact they were, of course, more brutal and less corruptible, since so much more was at stake for them); to, finally, a few who committed suicide—like Adam Czerniakow, chairman of the Warsaw Jewish Council, who was not a rabbi but an unbeliever, a Polish-speaking Jewish engineer, but who must still have remembered the rabbinical saying: "Let them kill you, but don't cross the line."


(P132-133)
the categories played a certain role up to the very end, since they helped put to rest a certain uneasiness among the German population: only Polish Jews were deported, only people who had shirked military service, and so on. For those who did not want to close their eyes it must have been clear from the beginning that it "was a general practice to allow certain ex¬ceptions in order to be able to maintain the general rule all the more easily" (in the words of Louis de Jong in an illuminating article on "Jews and Non-Jews in Nazi-Occupied Holland").
What was morally so disastrous in the acceptance of these priv¬ileged categories was that everyone who demanded to have an "exception" made in his case implicitly recognized the rule, but this point, apparently, was never grasped by these "good men," Jewish and Gentile, who busied themselves about all those "special cases" for which preferential treatment could be asked.

 The extent to which even the Jewish victims had accepted  the standards of the Final Solution is perhaps nowhere more glaring evident than in the so-called Kastner Report German, Der Kastner-Bericht uber Eichmanns Menscnenhandel in Ungam, 1961). Even after the end of the war, Kastner was proud of his success in saving "prominent Jews," a category officially introduced by the Nazis in 1942, as though in his view, too, it went without saying that a famous Jew had more right to stay alive than an ordinary one; to take upon himself such "responsibilities"—to help the Nazis in their efforts to pick out "famous" people from the anonymous mass, for this is what it amounted to—"required more courage than to face death." But if the Jewish and Gentile pleaders of "special cases" were unaware of their involuntary complicity, this implicit recognition of the rule, which spelled death for all non-special cases, must have been very obvious to those who were engaged in the business of murder. They must have felt, at least, that being asked to make exceptions, and by occasionally granting them, and this earning gratitude, they had convinced their opponents of the lawfulness of what they were doing.

« Last Edit: February 24, 2008, 06:57:50 pm by DannyD »
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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #146 on: February 24, 2008, 04:49:40 pm »
the final rounding up of Jews in Berlin was, as I have mentioned, done entirely by Jewish police

Jewish police in Berlin?
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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #147 on: February 24, 2008, 05:25:26 pm »
Jewish police in Berlin?

Jews policed Jews Dava that was the start of the Judenrats, at every level The Nazis used them, they would never have been able to carry out the extermination.

SS captain Dieter Wisliceny explained:

“Our system is to exterminate the Jews through the Jews. We concentrate the Jews in the ghettos – through Jews; we deport the Jews – by the Jews; and we gas the Jews – by the Jews.”
B. Hecht, Perfidy, New York 1961, fn 68, p.261.
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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #148 on: February 24, 2008, 07:37:34 pm »
She further raises the question of allowing the Jewish population their own choice whether to fight or to go quietly to their deaths. Kasztner and the apologists make us believe that resistance was futile, but again that was their subjective decision based on their own emotional feelings. If they failed to have the stomach for the fight they should have moved aside and allowed a fighting leadership to develop.

Testimony at the Libel confirms that those who tried to blow the whistle were treated as traitors. So it wasn’t just that they stood aside to allow things to progress of their own accord, but they actively intervened to ensure there was no resistance and The Nazis gained what they wanted most, a placid population going to their deaths unaware of their fate.

At The Eichmann trial witnesses who had lived through the camps were asked as individuals “why didn’t you rebel?”  When in fact the question should have been directed to their leadership.
 

124-125The matter of cooperation was twice mentioned by the judges; ( in the Eichmann trial) Judge Yitzak Raveh elicited from one of the resistance witnesses an admission that the "ghetto police" were an "instru¬ment in the hands of murderers" and an acknowledgment of "the Judenrats policy of cooperating with the Nazis"; and Judge Halevi found out from Eichmann in cross-examination that the Nazis had regarded this cooperation as the very corner¬stone of their Jewish policy. But the question the prosecutor regularly addressed to each witness except the resistance fighters which sounded so very natural to those who knew nothing of the factual background of the trial, the question "Why did you not rebel?," actually served as a smoke screen for the question that was not asked. And thus it came to pass that all answers to the unanswerable question Mr. Hausner ( Israeli State Prosecutor) put to his witnesses were considerably less than "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth." True it was that the Jewish people as a whole had not been organized, that they had possessed no territory, no government, and no army, that, in the hour of their greatest need, they had no government-in-exile to represent them among the Allies (the Jewish Agency for Palestine, under Dr. Weizmann's presidency, was at best a miserable substitute), no caches of weapons, no youth with military training.

But the whole truth was that there existed Jewish community organiza¬tions and Jewish party and welfare organizations on both the local and the international level. Wherever Jews lived, there were recognized Jewish leaders, and this leadership, almost without exception, cooperated in one way or another, for one reason or another, with the Nazis. The whole truth was that if the Jewish people had really been unorganized and leaderless, there would have been chaos and plenty of misery but the total number of victims would hardly have been between four and a half and six million people. (According to Freudiger's calculations about half of them could have saved themselves if they had not followed the instructions of the Jewish Councils.

This is of course a mere estimate, which, however, oddly jibes with the rather reliable figures we have from Holland and which I owe to Dr. L. de Jong, the head of the Netherlands State Institute for War Documentation. In Holland, where the Joodsche Road like all the Dutch authorities very quickly became an "instru¬ment o! the Nazis," 103,000 Jews were deported to the death camps and some five thousand to Theresienstadt* in the usual way, i.e., with the cooperation of the Jewish Council. Only five hundred and nineteen Jews returned from the death camps. In contrast to this figure, ten thousand of those twenty to twenty-five thousand Jews who escaped the Nazis—and that meant also the Jewish Council—and went underground sur¬vived; again forty to fifty per cent. Most of the Jews sent to Theresienstadt returned to Holland.)

* Theresienstadt was a camp set up for Prominents. It had an extermination wing and those chosen were done so on a basis of the lower down the social ladder the nearer you were to extermination (DD)

Arendt does give mention earlier in her book to the organisations outside of Hungary that assisted the Jews chosen by Kasztner prominent is their own Jewish Agency. There was also the US funded Distribution Agency Allied parachutist were regularly dropped into Hungary and Rumania to link up with the partisans and resistance movements. Kasztner was in contact with the Jewish Agency in Switzerland, in fact he had free access to anywhere in the occupied territories and at least once travelled to Berlin to meet Himmler. He could have organised or orders one of his aids to organise resistance through them or to link up resources with the Partisans.

How did any resistance movement develop in the Nazi satellite countries. Rudolph Vrba the escapee from Auschwitz after he had given his report to the Jewish Agency joined up with Rumanian and later the Czechoslovakian  partisans, if he could do this as an individual why not others. All able bodied men and woman were welcome to join, you didn’t have to pass an exam or be part of select social strata after all.

Zionist today like to put it about the Jews were a beaten race and had no fight in them, Jews had fought within the Left Oposition, Communist Party, SDP and The Jewish Bund before Hitler came to power in Germany,

In the occupied countries they organised alongside and within the left party’s to sabotage the  SS’s actions against the population. Eventualy they went underground and became leaders in the fight in the Ghettos, or escaped and joined up with the Allies. The thing lacking within Judaism was leadership, the Zionists gave up the chance to lead a revolt for a policy of collaboration.

In his judgement at the Libel trial Judge Halevi spells it out about Kasztner and his “ Resuce Committee”.

The Jews of the ghettos would not have trusted the Nazi or Hungarian rulers. But they had trust in their Jewish leaders. Eichmann and others used this known fact as part of their calculated plan to mislead the Jews. They were able to deport the Jews to their extermination by the help of Jewish leaders. The false information was spread by the Jewish leaders. The local leaders of the Jews of Kluj and Nodvarod knew that other leaders were spreading such false information and did not protest. Those of the Jews who tried to warn their friends of the truth were persecuted by the Jewish leaders in charge of the local 'rescue work'.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2008, 08:03:11 pm by DannyD »
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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #149 on: February 24, 2008, 09:34:52 pm »
How much longer do we need to suffer from the horrible posts by DannyD in this thread?

Up until now it was the Zionists who are the main culprits and are basically to blame for the holocaust, and now we are expanding to the Jews in general. The Jews are to blame for the holocaust, they brought it upon themselves (the view held by many Satmar Hassidim and Neturei Karta, Jews that DannyD likes to quote often in order to justify antisemitic ideas) and they were the main executioners as well. Hurrah! problem solved! no more guilt trips for anyone! no justification for Israel!

This thread is nauseating.  If one was to believe there really is no connection between Anti Zionism and Antisemitism, this thread comes along to prove how closely connected they are.

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #150 on: February 25, 2008, 07:23:41 am »
I reckon it was exaggerated to some extent as the physical and forensic evidence suggests, and found it disgusting to see Irving jailed for a legitimate academic assessment.

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #151 on: February 25, 2008, 08:17:13 am »
I reckon it was exaggerated to some extent as the physical and forensic evidence suggests, and found it disgusting to see Irving jailed for a legitimate academic assessment.

This is from the Palestinians Break Gaza Siege thread:
Brutal regime that needs to be dealt with quick. We don't see the yanks rushing in to hang Netanhayu on Hannukkah.


Thank You for proving my point above in such a concise manner.


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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #152 on: February 25, 2008, 09:56:03 am »
How much longer do we need to suffer from the horrible posts by DannyD in this thread?

Up until now it was the Zionists who are the main culprits and are basically to blame for the holocaust, and now we are expanding to the Jews in general. The Jews are to blame for the holocaust, they brought it upon themselves (the view held by many Satmar Hassidim and Neturei Karta, Jews that DannyD likes to quote often in order to justify antisemitic ideas) and they were the main executioners as well. Hurrah! problem solved! no more guilt trips for anyone! no justification for Israel!

This thread is nauseating.  If one was to believe there really is no connection between Anti Zionism and Antisemitism, this thread comes along to prove how closely connected they are.


No! ........  that the Jews were responsible for their own deaths is the theory used by Kasztner and all the Zionists who said they were a spent force in Europe. I claim they could and would have fought as they had in Warsaw and elsewhere given a leadership.

The leadership of the Jews in occupied Europe was a Zionist one, that was how The Nazis wished it to be. Take a read of books on the subject, see how the leaders were allowed to wander around Europe free as a bird no Yellow Patch, no papers that signified they were Jews. Kasztner goes to Berlin and Switzerland, Brand wanders around the Mid East, how clear a picture do you want? I also make it clear, through accredited quotes from accredited historians that there was thousands of Jews who escaped and joined The Partisans. Also I have God knows how many times pointed out that before Hitler came to power they had fought inside the left party’s and their own Jewish Bund. 30,000 Jews went to the recruiting offices in Tel Aviv and against the wishes of most of the Zionist organisations. joined the British Army in Palestine, They also formed one if the largest single groups in The International Brigade fighting fascism in Spain before WW2.

At the Eichmann trial when one after another of the survivors were brought forward to testify, the Israel State Prosecutor asked them all “ why didn’t you revolt” passing the blame on to each individual. Never bringing forward any of the leaders of the Judenrats of Europe and asking them that question or more “ why didn’t you organise a revolt?”

Money was available to buy arms and fund uprisings and revolts, who knows how many would have survived. I quote Hannah Ardnt on the figures in Holland. The money held by the leadership outside Europe was spent buying Jews for Palestine, and not very successfully at that. The train of Prominents was about Kasztner’s only success, the reason behind that is well documented now.

 This is the history of Zionism in The Holocaust that is put down, not by me but by the Israeli state, “ We were all alone nobody helped us we couldn’t fight we didn’t have the means” The means were found to fight The British and purchase arms to drive out the Palestinians.

The WZO was awash with cash from a world that was horrified at what was happening in Europe and sought to pay off their conscience with money. It could have funded an enormous resistance movement. Why didn’t it. The only resistance came from below, that was a minority who had to be as careful of their own leaders as they were of The Nazis. The British and American aided and armed the Partisans all over Europe, it was there that the Jewish leadership should have looked for help, not the Zionist bankers in Switzerland

You don’t like what is put in front of you no more than Ben Gurion and the leading Zionists were horrified at the revelations that came out of the Kasztner libel case.

You use the last card in the Zionist pack screaming anti Semitism. If I was Jewish the shout would be “self hater” its all in the formula isn’t it?

I have quoted Abraham Lincoln  “you can fool some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time but you can’t fool them all for all of the time.” Well the majority of those involved in the movement for a real understanding of The Holocaust are based in Israel. Many of the books banned have now come out in Hebrew and are causing a stir especially amongst the youth.

This is what frightens you, not the libellees claims of me being anti Jew but the truth of Israel’s history and the realisation that is was founded on the quicksand of  lies and deceit.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2008, 10:00:17 am by DannyD »
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Offline DannyD

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #153 on: February 25, 2008, 10:07:59 am »
This is from the Palestinians Break Gaza Siege thread:

Thank You for proving my point above in such a concise manner.



One quote from one poster who hides behind anonymity allows you to dismiss the yards of argument backed up with evidence researched by renowned historians I put forward here. How desperate and bankrupt your case must be to stoop so low.
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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #154 on: February 25, 2008, 10:10:00 am »
What's the main bone of contention in the thread? What is the larger agenda of certain posters?

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #155 on: February 25, 2008, 10:15:30 am »
What's the main bone of contention in the thread? What is the larger agenda of certain posters?

DannyD is aiming to convince us all that the holocaust wasn't actually that bad, more like a fair fight, really, and anyway, the jews did it to themselves.

His weapons are plagiarism and massive tracts of marxist garbage, which are almost as badly written as his "original" stuff. Oh, and fear.

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #156 on: February 25, 2008, 10:32:14 am »
DannyD is aiming to convince us all that the holocaust wasn't actually that bad, more like a fair fight, really, and anyway, the jews did it to themselves.

His weapons are plagiarism and massive tracts of marxist garbage, which are almost as badly written as his "original" stuff. Oh, and fear.

That is how you would like it to be I am sure, and I asked Yorky this question maybe you can answer if for both of you. Of all the writers I cite how many are Marxist. Plagiarism is when you steal another's work claiming it to be your own. The massive amount of accredited quotes dispels this argument.

Back to shooting the messenger eh!
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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #157 on: February 25, 2008, 11:20:43 am »
Dan, really,mate, people were desperate to survive, just because some became Kapos doesn't mean there was a big zionist conspiracy, it just means they were scared and desperate. I can't even begin to imagine what it must be like, I mean, I read about it, but the feelings of the people in the camps and ghettos are way beyond any that I can imagine (Thanks to people of my grandad's generation putting a stop to it all).

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #158 on: February 25, 2008, 11:51:43 am »

I reckon it was exaggerated to some extent as the physical and forensic evidence suggests, and found it disgusting to see Irving jailed for a legitimate academic assessment.


I am astonished that in today's society someone can still hold this view. Shame on you.
Yep.

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #159 on: February 25, 2008, 11:54:10 am »
1. Not all Judenrats were Zionist. Most weren’t.

2. Not all Judenrats co-operated. Several led (futile) revolts.

3. Not all the ghettoes were emptied with Judenrat help. None of the eastern Poland and Soviet ones were.

These three facts show why DannyD is struggling. He wants to blame the holocaust on ‘the Zionists’ but he keeps running into the hard truth. Consequently he has begun to blame the holocaust on ‘the Jews’ instead.

He cites Hannah Arendt a lot on the ‘judenrat’ question. I like Arendt. Her great book ‘The Origins of Totalitarianism’ contains the brilliant insight that Nazism and Soviet Communism are systems which spring from the same root and which share many of the same features (obvius now, but not necessarily when she was writing). But ‘Eichmann in Jerusalem’, for all the beauty of its writing and the vividness of its reportage, is bad history. In fact it’s not history at all. It is high-end polemic. Like DannyD’s other favourite book, 'Perfidy' by the ultra right-wing Zionist writer Ben Hecht, there is no real history in it. Both are written without a single historical document from the 1941-45 period.

45 years have passed since Arendt wrote her book. In that time hundreds of historians have scoured millions of primary documents. The erroneous picture of the judenrats presented by Arendt has been modified and often overturned. Three broad conclusions have been reached:

1. Not all Judenrats were Zionist. Most weren’t.

2. Not all Judenrats co-operated. Several led (futile) revolts.

3. Not all the ghettoes were emptied with Judenrat help. None of the eastern Poland and Soviet ones were.

One can ask why the Jews of Europe apparently went to their deaths without great resistance. It’s a legitimate and important question. It forces you to talk about the character of Jewish communities in the European diaspora. It forces you to talk about the pervasive anti-semitism of eastern Europe and Russia. It forces you to consider the role of the Allies, in particular the reluctance of the British to open up Palestine as a refuge or the Americans to bomb Auschwitz. It forces you to contemplate the total collapse of the Geman and Austrian socialist movements. It forces you to face the perfidy of the Soviet Union which, in 1939, decided Hitler was a great guy and that he should get his hands on the Jews of Poland.  Above all it forces you to remember how the Nazi state systematically crushed all opposition.
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