Author Topic: Youth and Under 23 Thread  (Read 10607796 times)

Offline Fordy

  • Κασσάνδρα. ITK (rubs bridge of nose knowingly)
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 33,124
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #40 on: January 9, 2008, 12:05:28 am »
i don't think it's a question of just playing them in the CC like arsenal - i wish it was but the trouble is that rafa's squad is possibly too big, so he has to use the CC just to give games to momo, voro, itandje, nowadays kuyt & crouch...  it could be argued this really is a wider issue on the effect of rotation at the club

Well this is what certain fans dont realise and then they wonder why we are not doing well or wondering why the next Gerrard isnt coming though. For us to really progress and get young players up to a level and use to playing in big games the likes of the C/C needs to be used for this. Utd did it in the Beckham, Giggs etc youth days, In fact they still do it today and Arsenal have always done it since Wenger went to Arsenal. 

It should be the best 11 players playing in the 1st team, use the reserves for te players that cant break through and us the C/C for youth players delevopement - The good old days and it works and we wonder why Utd and Arsenal are ahead of us.

Offline ouestlereferee

  • Pourquoi! C'est monsieur Scrutin
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,005
  • Joga Benitez
Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #41 on: January 9, 2008, 12:05:39 am »
Hard to say because I feel Rafa expects these players to do a Gerrard, Carra, Fowler or Owen in that if they play the 1st team then he expects them to stay there or he will sell them. Hope I am wrong.

To answer your questions I have to look at the positions that I feel are not so strong at the minute in the 1st team and if I go by that I expect:

Insua to be involved soon at left back but that depends on how well he is settling in England. Really shocked he hasnt been in the 1st team this season as our 1st team left backs have not had the best of seasons.

Nemeth - Even though we have 4 forwards at the moment in the 1st team squad. Only 1 of them in world class. Rather play Nemeth than Kuyt at the moment. If he keeps on scoring like he is for the reserves he will be in the 1st team squad for some games for sure.

Anderson - I expect this lad to be in the 1st squad next season. We could've done with him this season when JP was injured. Good player. Can take players on and score goals. Swansea want to keep him but I would be really disappointed if we sell and that would make me lose faith in any of the players talked about on here breaking in to the 1st team.

Gutrie - even though centre mid is a strong position for us I expect momo to be sold. leaving us with Gerrard, Alonso, Lucas and hopefully Mash. I would hopefully add Gutrie to this for next season as he adds something different.

Agree about Nemeth & Insua

Have not seen much of Anderson - so can't comment.

Can imagine Guthrie will be sold.  I think the way rafa will see it will be that he will be able to use 3-5m better than having Guthrie around...

Offline Fordy

  • Κασσάνδρα. ITK (rubs bridge of nose knowingly)
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 33,124
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #42 on: January 9, 2008, 12:08:49 am »
Any word on how Brouwer is doing?

For me this lad wont make it. Hope I am proved wrong but seems like he is missing things from his game.

Offline Bob Loblaw

  • Could be John Giles, or his agent.
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 25,428
Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #43 on: January 9, 2008, 12:09:32 am »
Plessis.  He resembles Momo in more ways than just physique - a similar touch & passing skills.  Doesn't seem to have the same workrate/stamina tho....

Nah seems very comfortable on the ball compared to Momo.

Offline ouestlereferee

  • Pourquoi! C'est monsieur Scrutin
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,005
  • Joga Benitez
Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #44 on: January 9, 2008, 12:15:09 am »
I'm interested in people's evaluations of our young players and their futures. Bear in mind that our central midfield is packed full of talent. Someone has to be fucking brilliant (or a huge injury crisis) to break into that. Our players in there have plenty left in them.

Similarly at the back Sami is on his last legs but with Agger, Carra, Skrtel - someone has to be better than Hobbs to just get a look in. There maybe a slot in the squad when Sami leaves - I think that's a key area to be looking at in terms of getting a youngster as cover over the next 2 years.


it'll be difficult to see someone try to force their way by lucas AND masch AND alonso AND gerrard in the next couple of years.  but, on the other hand, we have a £10m man in kuyt and an england international in crouch and let's just say a lot of fans would be sympathetic to nemeth getting a go ahead of them - say after 70 mins in the replay against Luton.  so you have loss of form issues too....  i'd say only really central midfield for us is insurmountable for a youngster to break in to - barring an injury crisis...

Offline Fordy

  • Κασσάνδρα. ITK (rubs bridge of nose knowingly)
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 33,124
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #45 on: January 9, 2008, 12:15:29 am »
Agree about Nemeth & Insua

Have not seen much of Anderson - so can't comment.

Can imagine Guthrie will be sold.  I think the way rafa will see it will be that he will be able to use 3-5m better than having Guthrie around...

Well if thats the case then we seriously might as well shut the doors of our reserve system. We brought Momo for example for 6 million and at that time had enough centre mid players and apart from one good season hes not done anything and is now out of the picture. So whats point spending 3-5 million on a player that might not cut it at our club anyway. Surely we should give youth a chance to shine.

Offline ouestlereferee

  • Pourquoi! C'est monsieur Scrutin
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,005
  • Joga Benitez
Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #46 on: January 9, 2008, 12:16:36 am »
Nah seems very comfortable on the ball compared to Momo.

to an extent, yes, but i've seen it go awry on him a few times, so factoring in the amount of time and space he has...  i'd say he hardly has a world-class first touch...

Offline Rob17

  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,077
  • The Ultimate Wingman
Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #47 on: January 9, 2008, 12:20:20 am »
i agree with guz-kop on this...yes we have a lot of talent in our youth but to get into the first team the standard is getting higher and higher. I would love to see just one or two make it from that list. It gets really frustrating seeing all our success in the youth fa cup and not seeing any product from it.
I have high hopes for Adam Hamill and a few others but i fear most wont be good enough.

Offline Sarge

  • Fucker
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 63,892
  • Ahh Ha!!
Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #48 on: January 9, 2008, 12:20:56 am »
To be honest if the likes of Nemeth is performing well and our first team are not why not give him a run in the Luton type game?
If you donít stand for something you will fall for anything.

Offline ouestlereferee

  • Pourquoi! C'est monsieur Scrutin
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,005
  • Joga Benitez
Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #49 on: January 9, 2008, 12:21:03 am »
Well if thats the case then we seriously might as well shut the doors of our reserve system. We brought Momo for example for 6 million and at that time had enough centre mid players and apart from one good season hes not done anything and is now out of the picture. So whats point spending 3-5 million on a player that might not cut it at our club anyway. Surely we should give youth a chance to shine.

no, i mean put the 3-5m in the transfer kitty that's used to buy players for positions we are weak in & the youth system can't fill. 2-3 such players a year can generate 6-15m - this can be used to "upgrade" a first team position - momo to masch, bellamy to torres....

Offline the_red_pill

  • Hasn't got a fucking clue when the Reds are playing next.
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 17,233
  • Location: X-18 or the 100 Rads Bar on matchdays
Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #50 on: January 9, 2008, 12:21:05 am »
Well this is what certain fans dont realise and then they wonder why we are not doing well or wondering why the next Gerrard isnt coming though. For us to really progress and get young players up to a level and use to playing in big games the likes of the C/C needs to be used for this. Utd did it in the Beckham, Giggs etc youth days, In fact they still do it today and Arsenal have always done it since Wenger went to Arsenal. 

It should be the best 11 players playing in the 1st team, use the reserves for te players that cant break through and us the C/C for youth players delevopement - The good old days and it works and we wonder why Utd and Arsenal are ahead of us.
Getting tired of the comparisons, but they are our rivals.
Anyway, Ferguson and Wenger doesn't blink an eyelid when the CC comes around. ManU were knocked out last year by Crewe Alex and this year by Morecambe(?), yet they'll continue to do this. Arsenal does exacto the same. They mix reserves and youth in those without worrying about losing- it's just a chance to see who's ready or not and I can only imagine what impact this might have on the mentality of their youth and ressies. An U18's eyes must sparkle at the thought of playing against Gerrard or going head-to-head with Drogba, Keane, Anelka, Carra etc...

That said, I think we'll reach that stage- IF we maintain continuity within our club- cause right now, we need the money. The CC provides at least the funds for a top, top defender.
« Last Edit: January 9, 2008, 12:26:45 am by the_red_pill »
Let's drink to him once more. He was a good Stalker.
In such a sumptuous festival of shite, I wouldn't be so quick to pick a winner..

But he'd make the shortlist

Offline The Infamous_LFC

  • Doubting Thommo.
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,418
  • 45
Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #51 on: January 9, 2008, 12:22:08 am »
Brouwer is very limited. Plessis is a much much better passer than Momo much better.

Nemeth is the one im excited the most with scores all types of goals sneaking headers like Klose,works and creates some goals by himself all out of nothing like Torres and links with midfielders while timing a run and then side footing it in like Eto'o.

Astrit is very over looked our most ready player in the youth squad would say him and Insua look like first team material in some games.

Offline Fordy

  • Κασσάνδρα. ITK (rubs bridge of nose knowingly)
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 33,124
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #52 on: January 9, 2008, 12:23:08 am »
i'd say only really central midfield for us is insurmountable for a youngster to break in to - barring an injury crisis...

I fear that either we wont sign Masch or Alonso will leave end of this season or next. I feel they is hope for a young CM player to break in to the squad but it wont be next season more than likely the season after.

Offline Sarge

  • Fucker
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 63,892
  • Ahh Ha!!
Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #53 on: January 9, 2008, 12:24:56 am »
no, i mean put the 3-5m in the transfer kitty that's used to buy players for positions we are weak in & the youth system can't fill. 2-3 such players a year can generate 6-15m - this can be used to "upgrade" a first team position - momo to masch, bellamy to torres....

Ok fine but if you do not try the youth out in real competition (not slagging off the ressies) we will never know, some players can find themselves in better competition.
If you donít stand for something you will fall for anything.

Offline Pr0n

  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,432
Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #54 on: January 9, 2008, 12:25:09 am »
Bear in mind that our central midfield is packed full of talent. Someone has to be fucking brilliant (or a huge injury crisis) to break into that. Our players in there have plenty left in them.

Similarly at the back Sami is on his last legs but with Agger, Carra, Skrtel - someone has to be better than Hobbs to just get a look in. There maybe a slot in the squad when Sami leaves - I think that's a key area to be looking at in terms of getting a youngster as cover over the next 2 years.



Absolutely agree. It's the reason why Guthrie most propably will move on, or should move on.

I think the way we are loaning out talanted players at a certain point to get first team experience is the right thing to do - the academy and the reserve-games are quite far from PL. With the experience of first team football the manager will know a lot more about how the player handles a step up in level and the player will be better prepared if there is chance.
To new beginnings!

Offline ouestlereferee

  • Pourquoi! C'est monsieur Scrutin
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,005
  • Joga Benitez
Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #55 on: January 9, 2008, 12:25:33 am »
Well this is what certain fans dont realise and then they wonder why we are not doing well or wondering why the next Gerrard isnt coming though. For us to really progress and get young players up to a level and use to playing in big games the likes of the C/C needs to be used for this. Utd did it in the Beckham, Giggs etc youth days, In fact they still do it today and Arsenal have always done it since Wenger went to Arsenal. 

It should be the best 11 players playing in the 1st team, use the reserves for te players that cant break through and us the C/C for youth players delevopement - The good old days and it works and we wonder why Utd and Arsenal are ahead of us.

I agree.  I wonder if Rafa's unwillingness to lose is also a hinderance?

Arsenal are fantastic at bringing younsters through.

United did get Beckham, Giggs, Scholes etc through but have they brought through any real quality since then?  Arguably Wes Brown.  But I'd say they got some useful squad-fillers out of it over the last couple of years - O'Shea, Fletcher, Richardson...  Even for that it's probably more useful than having to bring in the likes of Voronin....

Offline ouestlereferee

  • Pourquoi! C'est monsieur Scrutin
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,005
  • Joga Benitez
Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #56 on: January 9, 2008, 12:29:33 am »
To be honest if the likes of Nemeth is performing well and our first team are not why not give him a run in the Luton type game?

this is a wider issue with rafa, i'd say he has promised gametime to crouch, voronin & kuyt and they have to get it.  perhaps also he's too unwilling to lose.....

or maybe i'm being harsh on rafa, perhaps nemeth's mentality is such that any set back would knock him back quite a bit...

Offline Fordy

  • Κασσάνδρα. ITK (rubs bridge of nose knowingly)
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 33,124
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #57 on: January 9, 2008, 12:32:39 am »
Its like Kuyt and Momo for example are really struggling in the 1st team. Why not play them in the reserves. Is it because they get paid more or drive better cars? Whats the point in playing them in the C/C. Playing them in that competition just wastes youth development. We should have a mix of youth and experence in that competition. We win, we win, we lose, we lose. Its not about either of them. Its about progress, the future.

Offline Sarge

  • Fucker
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 63,892
  • Ahh Ha!!
Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #58 on: January 9, 2008, 12:34:51 am »
this is a wider issue with rafa, i'd say he has promised gametime to crouch, voronin & kuyt and they have to get it.  perhaps also he's too unwilling to lose.....

or maybe i'm being harsh on rafa, perhaps nemeth's mentality is such that any set back would knock him back quite a bit...


I will answer this with this.


Ok fine but if you do not try the youth out in real competition (not slagging off the ressies) we will never know, some players can find themselves in better competition.
If you donít stand for something you will fall for anything.

Offline ouestlereferee

  • Pourquoi! C'est monsieur Scrutin
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,005
  • Joga Benitez
Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #59 on: January 9, 2008, 12:35:48 am »
Brouwer is very limited. Plessis is a much much better passer than Momo much better.

Nemeth is the one im excited the most with scores all types of goals sneaking headers like Klose,works and creates some goals by himself all out of nothing like Torres and links with midfielders while timing a run and then side footing it in like Eto'o.

Astrit is very over looked our most ready player in the youth squad would say him and Insua look like first team material in some games.

Plessis does look a better footballer, but a worse athlete, than Momo, but he does have a lot more time & space on the ball.  I've seen him get it wrong a couple of times and I would imagine if he had the pressure that Momo has on him he would not do a lot better.

Ajdarevic looks good - but is in the Academy, not the ressies.  He thus has to make two steps up....

Offline Fordy

  • Κασσάνδρα. ITK (rubs bridge of nose knowingly)
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 33,124
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #60 on: January 9, 2008, 12:36:07 am »
this is a wider issue with rafa, i'd say he has promised gametime to crouch, voronin & kuyt and they have to get it.  perhaps also he's too unwilling to lose.....

or maybe i'm being harsh on rafa, perhaps nemeth's mentality is such that any set back would knock him back quite a bit...

Think this is one of the major problem the owners have with Rafa too. Think like some of us they cant understand why players are not coming through or why not using reserve players from time to time. Hence the reason the coaching comment that Rafa kept on using.

Offline Sarge

  • Fucker
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 63,892
  • Ahh Ha!!
Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #61 on: January 9, 2008, 12:36:28 am »
Its like Kuyt and Momo for example are really struggling in the 1st team. Why not play them in the reserves. Is it because they get paid more or drive better cars? Whats the point in playing them in the C/C. Playing them in that competition just wastes youth development. We should have a mix of youth and experence in that competition. We win, we win, we lose, we lose. Its not about either of them. Its about progress, the future.

100% correct.
If you donít stand for something you will fall for anything.

Offline ouestlereferee

  • Pourquoi! C'est monsieur Scrutin
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,005
  • Joga Benitez
Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #62 on: January 9, 2008, 12:38:17 am »
I fear that either we wont sign Masch or Alonso will leave end of this season or next. I feel they is hope for a young CM player to break in to the squad but it wont be next season more than likely the season after.

possibly.  but hopefully not.  i made the assumption we'll hang on to masch, alonso, lucas, and gerrard (i think rafa wants to hang on to them)

Offline shanklyboy

  • OCB Enforcer.
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 11,591
Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #63 on: January 9, 2008, 12:38:30 am »
Ray Putterill age 18 from Liverpool.England U16 Honours.

Natural left footer. Usually played as a winger and was one of the stars of the youth team last season. Moved up to Melwood this season and has held his own when in the team. Has made the step up to reserves quite well. Scored for Ist team in pre-season versus Crewe.
Pacey, a good crosser and has a superb shot from distance.

Craig Lindfield age 19 from Wirral.England U19 Honours.

Big strong aggressive forward who has been at Melwood for 2 seasons. Went on loan to Notts County this season. Quick, good first touch and a decent finisher.
 
Robbie Threlfall age 19 from Liverpool. England U19 Honours.

Been at Melwood since age 17 and played in pre-season for 1st team in Hong Kong last year.
Big strong lad. Primarily a left back who is excellent at going forward and solid defensively. Has played as a left winger. Good first touch and uses the ball well. Has an eye for goal and scored the winner at OT versus Man Utd in youth cup final. Can also play as a Centre back.On loan at Hereford.

Adam Hammill aged 19 from Liverpool.England U19 Honours.

Been at Melwood for 2 years.Quick and strong left winger with an eye for goal. Went on loan to Dunfermline last season and scored against Celtic in Scottish Cup Final.Currently on loan at Southampton.

Besian Idrizaj age 20 from Austria.Austria U21 Honours.

Been at Melwood for 2 years. Big strong midfielder who has played upfront in pre season for 1st team. Has had some injury problems.
Scored a hatrick in pre season versus Wrexham.
Reads the game well and uses the ball intelligently. Went on loan to Luton and currently Crystal Palace this season.
Austrian young player of the year 2005.


Damien Plessis age 19 from Lyon. French U19 Honours.

Big strong aggressive holding midfielder. Very good tackler excellent on the ball, good distribution and awareness.
Dominated midfield versus Everton and Borough this season.

Mikel San Jose Dominguez aged18 from Spain. Spain U19 Honours.
Big strong technically good defender/midfielder. Signed from Bilbao in 2007. Good vision and very confortable in possession. Good in the air.
Won UEFA U19s Championship with Spain.

Jordy Brouwer aged 19 from Holland. Holland U19 Honours.

Big strong forward signed from Ajax last year. Very skilful player who is comfortable on the ball.
Not as prolific as he could be , better as a second forward. 

Lee Peltier aged 21 from Liverpool.

Came through the Academy ranks and made his 1st team debut in 2006 versus Swindon in League Cup.
Good solid right back. Comfortable on the ball and likes to go forward.Can also play in midfield. Played full game against Galatasaray in Champions League 2006. Had loan spell at Hull.Been at Yeovil on loan this season.
 
Godwin Antwi aged 19 from Ghana. Spain U19 Honours.

Big, strong commanding centre back. Aggressive and excellent header. Reads the game very well and has good vision. Great tackler.Signed from Zaragosa in 2005. Skippered the reserves in 2007 until going on loan to Accrington Stanley. Been on loan at Hartlepool this season.
 
Miki Roque aged 19 from Spain.

Centre back/right back/midfield.
Strong in the air and excellent passer. Good position sense and technically very good.Came on as sub versus Galatasaray in Champions League 2006. Went on loan to Oldham last year. Currently on loan to Spanish 2nd Division side Xerez.

The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie ó deliberate, contrived and dishonest ó but the myth ó persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.

John F. Kennedy.
www.savelfc.org

Offline Pr0n

  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,432
Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #64 on: January 9, 2008, 12:40:53 am »
To be fair Rafa HAS used youngsters for CC-games.. A selection, granted, but they have had the benefit of playing together with some more experienced players.. which is'nt wrong either.

For me, the best way to see what the youngsters are made of is to loan them out.. Playing reserve-games is'nt ideal for developing players - to say the least.

Bringing young players trough takes some time.. usually. And sometimes Im quite stunned at the argument: "play X (player x - any youngster who scored a couple of goals in the reserves)! he surely cannot be any worse than Y (player y - any player who happens to get all the blame at that time - usually a striker)". Because frankly - yes - it can be much worse. The difference in level betweeen PL - the reserves is huge. And one can damage unexperienced players by putting way too much pressure on them to deliver under those circumstances. Houllier did "nicely" the way he used le tallec (I think it was?) F.I. Not a single PL/first team game and BAM straight into action against Arsenal.
To new beginnings!

Offline ouestlereferee

  • Pourquoi! C'est monsieur Scrutin
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,005
  • Joga Benitez
Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #65 on: January 9, 2008, 12:42:13 am »
Its like Kuyt and Momo for example are really struggling in the 1st team. Why not play them in the reserves. Is it because they get paid more or drive better cars? Whats the point in playing them in the C/C. Playing them in that competition just wastes youth development. We should have a mix of youth and experence in that competition. We win, we win, we lose, we lose. Its not about either of them. Its about progress, the future.

again, i agree.  perhaps i shouldn't say this out loud but what if momo & kuyt look fairly average in the ressies too?  i'd imagine rafa would be totally undermined - 14/15m spent and the players look no better than plessis & nemeth who came in for virtually nothing (and have wages that are way smaller)?

Offline Bob Loblaw

  • Could be John Giles, or his agent.
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 25,428
Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #66 on: January 9, 2008, 12:43:10 am »
to an extent, yes, but i've seen it go awry on him a few times, so factoring in the amount of time and space he has...  i'd say he hardly has a world-class first touch...

Think that's because he seems to sit more than Momo was allowed to. With the right coaching, someone like Momo could be very successful playing a sitting DM.

Offline Pr0n

  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,432
Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #67 on: January 9, 2008, 12:44:42 am »
Playing healthy seniors in the reserves won't do them much good. It's one thing if they are coming back from injury and need some match-form, another if they are dumped because they have'nt played in the first team. The level is so much below PL in the reserves, whereas the youngsters can actually benefit of the experience.
To new beginnings!

Offline Sarge

  • Fucker
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 63,892
  • Ahh Ha!!
Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #68 on: January 9, 2008, 12:46:09 am »
again, i agree.  perhaps i shouldn't say this out loud but what if momo & kuyt look fairly average in the ressies too?  i'd imagine rafa would be totally undermined - 14/15m spent and the players look no better than plessis & nemeth who came in for virtually nothing (and have wages that are way smaller)?

So what we improve and move on.
If you donít stand for something you will fall for anything.

Offline Pr0n

  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,432
Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #69 on: January 9, 2008, 12:47:41 am »
It's good that there is quite a tight border between the first team and the reserve team when it comes to matches. Too much interference into each other would'nt do anyone any good.
To new beginnings!

Offline ouestlereferee

  • Pourquoi! C'est monsieur Scrutin
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,005
  • Joga Benitez
Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #70 on: January 9, 2008, 12:49:51 am »
Think this is one of the major problem the owners have with Rafa too. Think like some of us they cant understand why players are not coming through or why not using reserve players from time to time. Hence the reason the coaching comment that Rafa kept on using.

i'd be delighted if that was a major problem they had with him!  then they would be displaying a great understanding & insight into the way the game works, and also give us more hope for the stewardship generally.

i think bringing in youths takes some time to be honest.  you have to get the right ones, have the right coaches in place, and then give them at least a year to develop - in the vast majority of cases more - like a year or 2 in the academy and then a year in the ressies.  possibly a year on loan as well.  all of this means it wouldn't have been reasonable to expect too much out of rafa yet.  i think this is also why there's such anticpation over insua.

in the case of pacheco & bruna - major starlets @ barca & real - prising them away is probably not something rafa could have done in 2004.  it's only now that he has the champions league repuation with us etc that players like that will want to leave two of the biggest clubs in the world to come to us?  back in 2004 barca or real would have been a much safer bet for a youngster's future than us.

Offline Sarge

  • Fucker
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 63,892
  • Ahh Ha!!
Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #71 on: January 9, 2008, 12:49:54 am »
It's good that there is quite a tight border between the first team and the reserve team when it comes to matches. Too much interference into each other would'nt do anyone any good.

Do not agree.
If you donít stand for something you will fall for anything.

Offline Pr0n

  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,432
Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #72 on: January 9, 2008, 12:57:49 am »
Do not agree.

Why not? It's not like he keeps people out of the first team IF they are talented enough/on the right level. Babel and Lucas are playing more and more while Hobbs and Itandje has gotten a couple of chances and propably will get a few more.. Moving seniors into the ressies will only upset the seniors along with the youngsters who can't play and thus gets stuck there forever.
To new beginnings!

Offline ouestlereferee

  • Pourquoi! C'est monsieur Scrutin
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,005
  • Joga Benitez
Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #73 on: January 9, 2008, 12:59:00 am »
To be fair Rafa HAS used youngsters for CC-games.. A selection, granted, but they have had the benefit of playing together with some more experienced players.. which is'nt wrong either.

For me, the best way to see what the youngsters are made of is to loan them out.. Playing reserve-games is'nt ideal for developing players - to say the least.

Bringing young players trough takes some time.. usually. And sometimes Im quite stunned at the argument: "play X (player x - any youngster who scored a couple of goals in the reserves)! he surely cannot be any worse than Y (player y - any player who happens to get all the blame at that time - usually a striker)". Because frankly - yes - it can be much worse. The difference in level betweeen PL - the reserves is huge. And one can damage unexperienced players by putting way too much pressure on them to deliver under those circumstances. Houllier did "nicely" the way he used le tallec (I think it was?) F.I. Not a single PL/first team game and BAM straight into action against Arsenal.

it may be a bit more useful, in general, to give the more serious prospects more gametime alongside the real first-teamers.  i for one think the effect of someone like lucas is amplified by working with, say, kewell compared to voronin.  (not specifically a youth team point but one on general development/integration into the team)

i wouldn't advocate starting nemeth, seriously.  but i think bringing him on for 20 mins against luton mightn't have been a bad thing at all.  provided his personality is such that he wouldn't be hugely setback if it didn't go well, under the circumstances, you'd be bringing him on after a poor performance by our other strikers, who are out of form - if he could do something great, if not, well then he didn't do too much worse than our other strikers....

Offline Pr0n

  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,432
Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #74 on: January 9, 2008, 01:00:44 am »
i'd be delighted if that was a major problem they had with him!  then they would be displaying a great understanding & insight into the way the game works, and also give us more hope for the stewardship generally.

i think bringing in youths takes some time to be honest.  you have to get the right ones, have the right coaches in place, and then give them at least a year to develop - in the vast majority of cases more - like a year or 2 in the academy and then a year in the ressies.  possibly a year on loan as well.  all of this means it wouldn't have been reasonable to expect too much out of rafa yet.  i think this is also why there's such anticpation over insua.

in the case of pacheco & bruna - major starlets @ barca & real - prising them away is probably not something rafa could have done in 2004.  it's only now that he has the champions league repuation with us etc that players like that will want to leave two of the biggest clubs in the world to come to us?  back in 2004 barca or real would have been a much safer bet for a youngster's future than us.

I agree, sometimes development goes faster and then a lot can happen in a little while. But generally it takes time. We are now in a much better position than we've been in for a long, long time (if ever) when it comes to finding and seasoning talent.
To new beginnings!

Offline ouestlereferee

  • Pourquoi! C'est monsieur Scrutin
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,005
  • Joga Benitez
Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #75 on: January 9, 2008, 01:01:10 am »
Think that's because he seems to sit more than Momo was allowed to. With the right coaching, someone like Momo could be very successful playing a sitting DM.

possibly so.  but his best attribute is his physicality - strength & endurance...

Offline ouestlereferee

  • Pourquoi! C'est monsieur Scrutin
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,005
  • Joga Benitez
Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #76 on: January 9, 2008, 01:03:46 am »
So what we improve and move on.

do you not think, in all seriousness, if kuyt & sissoko played in the ressies and were amongst the poorer players in the team, rafa's job wouldn't be on very, very thin ice at best?

Offline Sarge

  • Fucker
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 63,892
  • Ahh Ha!!
Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #77 on: January 9, 2008, 01:05:27 am »
do you not think, in all seriousness, if kuyt & sissoko played in the ressies and were amongst the poorer players in the team, rafa's job wouldn't be on very, very thin ice at best?

Like it is already.
If you donít stand for something you will fall for anything.

Offline ouestlereferee

  • Pourquoi! C'est monsieur Scrutin
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,005
  • Joga Benitez
Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #78 on: January 9, 2008, 01:05:43 am »
Moving seniors into the ressies will only upset the seniors along with the youngsters who can't play and thus gets stuck there forever.

if the youngsters can't play football then we should be getting rid of them.  certainly not sticking with them forever.

Offline Pr0n

  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,432
Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #79 on: January 9, 2008, 01:05:52 am »
it may be a bit more useful, in general, to give the more serious prospects more gametime alongside the real first-teamers.  i for one think the effect of someone like lucas is amplified by working with, say, kewell compared to voronin.  (not specifically a youth team point but one on general development/integration into the team)

i wouldn't advocate starting nemeth, seriously.  but i think bringing him on for 20 mins against luton mightn't have been a bad thing at all.  provided his personality is such that he wouldn't be hugely setback if it didn't go well, under the circumstances, you'd be bringing him on after a poor performance by our other strikers, who are out of form - if he could do something great, if not, well then he didn't do too much worse than our other strikers....

I was quite suprised with how strong/first-team based the side was that Rafa used against Luton. Not to underestimate Luton, but you know what I mean.. In the CC however, we tend to play a side strong enough to win, but with as much youth in the side as possible.
To new beginnings!