Author Topic: Youth and Under 23 Thread  (Read 9865137 times)

Online Chris~

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99040 on: February 13, 2019, 02:53:58 PM »
U18s vs Wigan in the youth cup tonight. Potential bannana skin with wigan having a couple regular england youth internationals.

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99041 on: February 13, 2019, 07:05:29 PM »
1-0 glatzel

Offline Theoldkopite

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99042 on: February 13, 2019, 07:24:38 PM »
2-0 Bobby Duncan.

Offline RogerTheRed

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99043 on: February 13, 2019, 07:24:50 PM »
Is Bobby playing tonight?
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Offline RogerTheRed

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99044 on: February 13, 2019, 07:25:16 PM »
Oh, the answer is obviously yes, thanks 😀
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Offline Theoldkopite

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99045 on: February 13, 2019, 07:42:01 PM »
Oh, the answer is obviously yes, thanks 😀

 :D :D :D


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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99046 on: February 13, 2019, 07:48:10 PM »
2-0 h/t. Good game. Wigan look useful but Liverpool looking dangerous down our right wing.

Offline PoetryInMotion

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99047 on: February 13, 2019, 07:53:09 PM »
I think you're probably right when it comes to mid-level talents. There are probably any number of players who spend their careers at a lower level than they are capable of, too. But the gap between the average academy player, and someone who can make an impact at a side competing for the title in the toughest league on Earth (tm) is huge. People could see it with Sterling. I think if anything the risk is that you get too many false positives there. You can see a kid who looks amazing for his age group, but once he moves up to the first team, he just hasn't got that extra something to get him through. Or he fails to reach his potential for various reasons.

And yes, there is a question of opportunity. You have to be better than whatever is in front of you to play, so the quality of what you are behind is crucial. Rickie Lambert would never have got a game if he had been kept on at Liverpool, but by moving down the leagues he was able to show what he could do. Ultimately, he was not good enough to be a starter for us. Maybe we got it right. But the whole loan system is built on this idea. The lads playing at Rangers, in another world they could be Rangers academy players. They would be getting the same games up there that they are not going to get here. Does that ultimately improve their chances of playing for us? The jury is still out on that one. We send a lot of players out on loan, and while it definitely helps us to move them on, and them to put themselves in the shop window, are they getting experience that will actually help them to make it at Liverpool? Or is it just Lambert again? Proving they can do it at a lower level does not mean that they are more likely to do it where we really want to see it.

Yes, I do agree with many of the points presented here, but I just don't think there's a hard and fast rule here. Lambert is one player who proved at a lower level who couldn't make the step up. Matic is one player who proved at a lower level & then came back & made the step up. Kane is one player who struggled in loan spells at lower level, and then given opportunities at higher level, suddenly exploded. I really think you can get examples for any developmental arc in football, every case has been achieved, so I don't really see any big differential line to say that, "okay a player has to be at this stage at this age with these many appearances at this level to become a top level player".

We all talk about Sterling and the title challenge, but there's also Flanagan and the title challenge and see the different paths either career has taken.

Offline PoetryInMotion

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99048 on: February 13, 2019, 08:01:36 PM »
I don't think anyone said there are no lost talents in the game. I certainly didn't. I said that true top class talent doesn't get held back, because they're game changing potential is easy to see. What they do with it, is up to them, but my point which I thought I made clear earlier, is that as long as a young player is impressing in training and working hard and I'd better than the experienced players in front of them, they will get their chance. They also have to be physically and emotionally ready to be in that level of game. Managers aren't that stupid. If they think a player will get them wins, they'll play them.

Edit - I do like your post, though, PiM! It makes sense in a broader picture for sure

Thanks PoP. I can see the point about how managers play youngsters if they feel they're better than the experienced options and I agree, but I'm more interested in knowing what you think about the case where a youngster is not quite better than the experienced player now, but has the potential to develop and become better than the experienced option (or at that level) in a few years. So, do you think the manager has to look for the development of the youngster for the sake of the squad and future and give the opportunities that will help the player develop, or should they keep denying the opportunities, just because as a youngster, now he's not a better option than a senior pro? Which is more beneficial in the long-term? What do you think managers do? And what do you think managers should do?

If the player knows his potential and sees himself starved of opportunities, he'll want to leave. It used to happen often outside England, but now the door's opening elsewhere for English youngsters too. You don't give the chance, no problem, plenty of others are waiting to do that. See Sancho, Odoi, Lookman, Brewster etc.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 08:04:07 PM by PoetryInMotion »

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99049 on: February 13, 2019, 08:14:25 PM »
Yes, I do agree with many of the points presented here, but I just don't think there's a hard and fast rule here. Lambert is one player who proved at a lower level who couldn't make the step up. Matic is one player who proved at a lower level & then came back & made the step up. Kane is one player who struggled in loan spells at lower level, and then given opportunities at higher level, suddenly exploded. I really think you can get examples for any developmental arc in football, every case has been achieved, so I don't really see any big differential line to say that, "okay a player has to be at this stage at this age with these many appearances at this level to become a top level player".

We all talk about Sterling and the title challenge, but there's also Flanagan and the title challenge and see the different paths either career has taken.

That's often down to application, though. Hark back to what Houllier saw in Carragher and the great lengths he went to, to make sure he fueled and prepared his body properly. Contrast that to Carragher's peers (Thompson, Warnock, for example) to see what NOT listening to that kind of advice does to players.
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Offline Theoldkopite

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99050 on: February 13, 2019, 08:56:16 PM »
2-0 full time. Bury away in quarter final.

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99051 on: February 13, 2019, 09:00:58 PM »
Good result, thanks.
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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99052 on: February 13, 2019, 10:50:23 PM »
Seen a bit of Duncan but nothing from Glatzel really, both sound really exciting, and quite prolific.

Good chance to go all the way in the youth cup now, would be great for them to win it.
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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99053 on: February 14, 2019, 03:14:15 AM »
Havenít really been following but are we still in the UEFA U19 competition that goes along with the Chamnpions League?

Offline HopefulRed

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99054 on: February 14, 2019, 07:31:42 AM »
Havenít really been following but are we still in the UEFA U19 competition that goes along with the Chamnpions League?

Yes.  There are some play off matches in a few days, then the draw for the knock outs is 22 Feb I think.

Offline ElPayaso

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99055 on: February 14, 2019, 05:46:04 PM »
#4 playing for Wigan last night was our former Emeka Obi (if he ever was our player?) - https://www.transfermarkt.com/emeka-obi/profil/spieler/458728

Was anyone keeping an extra eye on him? I missed the game unfortunately, but I remember he was kind of a big deal when he was first linked with us.

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99056 on: February 14, 2019, 10:16:47 PM »

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99057 on: February 15, 2019, 10:40:05 AM »
Yes, I do agree with many of the points presented here, but I just don't think there's a hard and fast rule here. Lambert is one player who proved at a lower level who couldn't make the step up. Matic is one player who proved at a lower level & then came back & made the step up. Kane is one player who struggled in loan spells at lower level, and then given opportunities at higher level, suddenly exploded. I really think you can get examples for any developmental arc in football, every case has been achieved, so I don't really see any big differential line to say that, "okay a player has to be at this stage at this age with these many appearances at this level to become a top level player".

We all talk about Sterling and the title challenge, but there's also Flanagan and the title challenge and see the different paths either career has taken.

Fair points. Horses for courses, really.
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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99058 on: February 15, 2019, 04:03:05 PM »
Harry Wilson is getting more and more noticed by the media now. Here is an article/interview on/with him in today's Grauniad:
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/feb/15/harry-wilson-derby-county-liverpool-interview

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99059 on: February 17, 2019, 09:40:30 AM »
Foden is not a top class talent. He's decent, but he's not a "future world class" player. My statement was that top class youth academy players are not being held back. The players who are being "held back" are the players who aren't top class. They might be very good, but "very good" is not enough to displace experienced senior professionals.
Foden stepped up with two goals yesterday (one of them not involving awful goalkeeping), on an awful pitch against pro opposition in the game of their lives. I agree that he may well not be a world class talent, but the signs are good for him becoming a regular player for a top team.

Players like Henderson and Milner show that you can reach the very top level with hard work, without necessarily having magic wands for feet, but they were both playing regular senior football by the time they were Foden's age. My argument is that, although world class talents will find their way into first teams because they're that good, talents a level below may slip through the net or fail to reach their potential because they spent crucial development years (18-22) when they should be making the final steps, sitting on the bench and/or playing U23 footy.

I think the Chelsea and Man City stockpiling is at a level above ours though.

Offline RyanBabel19

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99060 on: February 17, 2019, 12:26:26 PM »
Just watching some goals from Duncan and Glatzel as I haven't had a chance to watch them play together yet but they seem to really enjoy playing as a strike partnership. Always seem happy to set eachother up but there seems to be a healthy little competition there too in which they try to outdo eachother

One thing I love about the goals I saw is that a large volume of them are shots driven towards the bottom corners. Obviously there were some wonderful finishes high into the net displaying they've got that in their locker but it was good to see smart shot selection in looking to finish low and out of reach of the keeper. Both of them have wonderful technique

Offline dakid

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99061 on: February 17, 2019, 01:17:02 PM »


Foden stepped up with two goals yesterday (one of them not involving awful goalkeeping), on an awful pitch against pro opposition in the game of their lives. I agree that he may well not be a world class talent, but the signs are good for him becoming a regular player for a top team.

Players like Henderson and Milner show that you can reach the very top level with hard work, without necessarily having magic wands for feet, but they were both playing regular senior football by the time they were Foden's age. My argument is that, although world class talents will find their way into first teams because they're that good, talents a level below may slip through the net or fail to reach their potential because they spent crucial development years (18-22) when they should be making the final steps, sitting on the bench and/or playing U23 footy.

I think the Chelsea and Man City stockpiling is at a level above ours though.
Not sure why you think Foden is not a world class talent? He was the star of the u17 team that won the world cup ahead of Sancho, Brewster and Odi. He was their best player and he even got the Golden Shoe Award as best player in the competition. He is 18 and getting games for Manchester City who probably have the best midfield in the world squad wise.

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99062 on: February 17, 2019, 04:01:04 PM »
Not sure why you think Foden is not a world class talent? He was the star of the u17 team that won the world cup ahead of Sancho, Brewster and Odi. He was their best player and he even got the Golden Shoe Award as best player in the competition. He is 18 and getting games for Manchester City who probably have the best midfield in the world squad wise.

He might have been the best of those playing against their own age group but that doesn't always translate to playing against men.
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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99063 on: February 17, 2019, 04:51:18 PM »
Not sure why you think Foden is not a world class talent? He was the star of the u17 team that won the world cup ahead of Sancho, Brewster and Odi. He was their best player and he even got the Golden Shoe Award as best player in the competition. He is 18 and getting games for Manchester City who probably have the best midfield in the world squad wise.

Golden Boot was won by Brewster. Foden won the Golden Ball.

He is a good player but that team had stars all over the show- Sancho (briefly); Odoi, Brewster, Gibbs-White, Tomori, etc. I will be very surprised if Foden becomes world class- unless we downgrade the true meaning of the term, football-wise.

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99064 on: February 17, 2019, 05:39:53 PM »
He might have been the best of those playing against their own age group but that doesn't always translate to playing against men.
No it doesn't but he is playing against men for man city and impressing. 9 appearences in cup competitions this year and 5 goals from midfield is good even though the opposition wasn't the best.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99065 on: February 17, 2019, 05:44:48 PM »
No it doesn't but he is playing against men for man city and impressing. 9 appearences in cup competitions this year and 5 goals from midfield is good even though the opposition wasn't the best.

Has to do it against the best, to be considered "world class"
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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99066 on: February 17, 2019, 06:46:54 PM »
Has to do it against the best, to be considered "world class"
Obviously mate. But he's what 18. I am saying he has potential to be world class not that he is world class.

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99067 on: February 17, 2019, 06:53:38 PM »
Two Liverpool youngster in England's u16 team today. It looks like Norris captained the team and Quansah started also and scored. Team sheet I found online.

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99068 on: February 17, 2019, 09:36:08 PM »
Any ideas who may be playing in the u23 match against West Ham tomorrow?

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99069 on: February 18, 2019, 05:57:49 AM »
Obviously mate. But he's what 18. I am saying he has potential to be world class not that he is world class.

What qualities make you think that, out of interest? He looks a very good player to me, but I'm not sure he dominates enough to be "world class".
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Offline HopefulRed

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99070 on: February 18, 2019, 08:19:44 AM »
Any ideas who may be playing in the u23 match against West Ham tomorrow?

Randall for one.  He wasn't with the first team squad that went warm weather training last week and he's been moved off the first team squad list and back into the academy on the LFC site.    Think his contract is up at the end of the season.  Shame he didn't get another loan with a view to a permanent move.   

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99071 on: February 18, 2019, 10:57:12 AM »
Obviously mate. But he's what 18. I am saying he has potential to be world class not that he is world class.
Foden stepped up with two goals yesterday (one of them not involving awful goalkeeping), on an awful pitch against pro opposition in the game of their lives. I agree that he may well not be a world class talent, but the signs are good for him becoming a regular player for a top team.
We're not really saying anything different. You reckon he has potential to be world class, I say he may well not be world class. Neither of us are saying he definitely is or isn't.

But let's have a look at previous FIFA U17 Golden Ball winners:

2015 Kelechi Nwakali - Never heard of him. Still early days, but it's not looking great at this stage.
2013 Kelechi Iheanacho - Not world class.
2011 Julio Gůmez - Not world class.
2009 Sani Emmanuel - Not playing football anymore, made 16 senior appearances.
2007 Toni Kroos - Arguably world class, depending on how you define that and what you think of him as a player. 1/5 so far...
2005 Anderson - Not world class.
2003 Fabregas - Same as Kroos. 2/7...
2001 Sinama-Pongolle - Not world class.
1999 Landon Donovan - Not world class.
1997 Sergio Santimaria - Not world class.

Going further back to the start of the competition, the extra names on the list are Mohamed Kathiri, Daniel Addo, Nii Lamptey, James Will, Philip Osundu and William. I've never heard of any of them.

So that's 2 players in 16 years who are at or above the level many seem to think Phil Foden is destined for.

Offline Suareznumber7

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99072 on: February 18, 2019, 02:04:29 PM »
I think what that list might say is that you can't put players into "potentially world class" or "no chance of world class" categories at such a young age.  There are so many variables that, unless you are a generational talent (ie; the real ronaldo, Messi, etc), it's almost impossible to declare how good a player will end up being. 

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99073 on: February 18, 2019, 02:36:52 PM »
I think what that list might say is that you can't put players into "potentially world class" or "no chance of world class" categories at such a young age.  There are so many variables that, unless you are a generational talent (ie; the real ronaldo, Messi, etc), it's almost impossible to declare how good a player will end up being. [/b ]

Exactly.

However, it's way easier to declare how good a player WON'T be.
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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99074 on: February 18, 2019, 02:36:53 PM »
I think what that list might say is that you can't put players into "potentially world class" or "no chance of world class" categories at such a young age.  There are so many variables that, unless you are a generational talent (ie; the real ronaldo, Messi, etc), it's almost impossible to declare how good a player will end up being. 
Yeah for sure.

There are so many different factors which can have an impact.

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99075 on: February 18, 2019, 02:50:39 PM »
Would say Foden Hudson Odoi and Sancho are all potentially world class, some of the best talents in Europe let alone England, for comparison I donít think we have a single talent in their age groups at that level, maybe Jones and Brewster at a stretch, but these guys are elite.

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99076 on: February 18, 2019, 03:49:24 PM »
Would say Foden Hudson Odoi and Sancho are all potentially world class, some of the best talents in Europe let alone England, for comparison I donít think we have a single talent in their age groups at that level, maybe Jones and Brewster at a stretch, but these guys are elite.

I think people's definitions of "world class" is where debates start about this topic.

Also an incomplete ability to assess a player according to what is needed in the professional game.

There are four (or five for some people) areas that players are to be assessed by - Technical, Tactical, Physical, Psychological (or psycho-social, depending on your ideal).

When you assess from those four criteria, you can start to see why the truly "world class" players are "world class". They score highly in all four pillars. Not just highly, but very highly, almost near-perfect in every one.

For me, Foden maybe lacks in the physical department to be truly world class as a midfielder. If he develops his strength, that might change things. But we haven't got enough minutes to judge him on at this level for the other parts, so it's too early to say. But I don't think he has ALL the attributes to be world class. But then again, my interpretation of "class" is quite strict ;D

World Class - would start every game in every team on the planet
Top class - would start every game for most teams, but would be in and out of the first team for the absolute best teams in the world
Good - what it says on the tin. Capable of standing out in certain teams, but wouldn't get on the bench for the absolute top teams
Average - lower league players, generally get by on being physical and abundant in one specific skill of the game (heading, crossing, shooting, dribbling, etc)
Bad - players who, more often than not, reached the professional level due to an abundance of athleticism and not much else. Severely lacking in tactics and technique, and also psychology
Paul Konchesky - players who won a raffle to play pro football (e.g., Paul Konchesky)
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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99077 on: February 18, 2019, 04:16:04 PM »
I think people's definitions of "world class" is where debates start about this topic.

Also an incomplete ability to assess a player according to what is needed in the professional game.

There are four (or five for some people) areas that players are to be assessed by - Technical, Tactical, Physical, Psychological (or psycho-social, depending on your ideal).

When you assess from those four criteria, you can start to see why the truly "world class" players are "world class". They score highly in all four pillars. Not just highly, but very highly, almost near-perfect in every one.

For me, Foden maybe lacks in the physical department to be truly world class as a midfielder. If he develops his strength, that might change things. But we haven't got enough minutes to judge him on at this level for the other parts, so it's too early to say. But I don't think he has ALL the attributes to be world class. But then again, my interpretation of "class" is quite strict ;D

World Class - would start every game in every team on the planet
Top class - would start every game for most teams, but would be in and out of the first team for the absolute best teams in the world
Good - what it says on the tin. Capable of standing out in certain teams, but wouldn't get on the bench for the absolute top teams
Average - lower league players, generally get by on being physical and abundant in one specific skill of the game (heading, crossing, shooting, dribbling, etc)
Bad - players who, more often than not, reached the professional level due to an abundance of athleticism and not much else. Severely lacking in tactics and technique, and also psychology
Paul Konchesky - players who won a raffle to play pro football (e.g., Paul Konchesky)

Yeah I agree mostly, out of the three if I was to bet on who would be absolutely world class Foden would be the last of the three I mentioned for that exact same reason he might lack a bit of athleticism, saying that itís not out of the realm he develops into a world class midfielder at a later stage of his career, like David Silva has, De Bruyne has and Bernardo Silva is starting to as well, he has everything else going for him.

Offline a treeless whopper

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99078 on: February 18, 2019, 04:50:17 PM »
Would say Foden Hudson Odoi and Sancho are all potentially world class, some of the best talents in Europe let alone England, for comparison I donít think we have a single talent in their age groups at that level, maybe Jones and Brewster at a stretch, but these guys are elite.

Trent and Joe Gomez.

Offline riismeister

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #99079 on: February 18, 2019, 05:03:56 PM »
Trent and Joe Gomez.
Are 2 and 3 years older than the three mentioned.