Author Topic: Youth and Under 23 Thread  (Read 10534318 times)

Offline ouestlereferee

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #80 on: January 9, 2008, 01:10:40 AM »
I agree, sometimes development goes faster and then a lot can happen in a little while. But generally it takes time. We are now in a much better position than we've been in for a long, long time (if ever) when it comes to finding and seasoning talent.

your first sentence here says it all and is 100%
i'm not slagging off ferguson at all by saying this, but if scholes, beckham etc were predominantly down to him or his backroom people how come they've not managed to repeat the feat?  other than these guys who else have united developed since?  only really wes brown is a first team, and even this is debatable.  but they have got their squad fillers of the last few seasons out of it - o'shea, fletcher, richardson....

yes, they've developed ronaldo, rooney, and now anderson & nani - but all of these players are pretty much ready for first team football upon arrival - rather than coming up through the youth system... and it's been more a question of icing on the cake....

Offline Pr0n

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #81 on: January 9, 2008, 01:12:23 AM »
if the youngsters can't play football then we should be getting rid of them.  certainly not sticking with them forever.

I think you misunderstand what I mean, I might be writing out of my ass with the typos etc.

Playing senior players in the reserves takes away places in the reserve team. Which means that less of those youngsters (who actually get some kind of benefit in playing in the reserves) will get into the team. If you'd have Voronin and Momo running about in the reserves, you'd get two pissed off first teamers and two pissed off reserves..
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Offline ouestlereferee

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #82 on: January 9, 2008, 01:12:40 AM »
Like it is already.

i mean, regardless of how we are doing, sarge, regardless of the situation with the owners, if at any stage, a manager spent 15m on two players, who then looked poor compared to the average player in the ressies (not even the starlets), then it would hit is job security big time...

Offline Pr0n

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #83 on: January 9, 2008, 01:14:02 AM »
your first sentence here says it all and is 100%
i'm not slagging off ferguson at all by saying this, but if scholes, beckham etc were predominantly down to him or his backroom people how come they've not managed to repeat the feat?  other than these guys who else have united developed since?  only really wes brown is a first team, and even this is debatable.  but they have got their squad fillers of the last few seasons out of it - o'shea, fletcher, richardson....


yes, they've developed ronaldo, rooney, and now anderson & nani - but all of these players are pretty much ready for first team football upon arrival - rather than coming up through the youth system... and it's been more a question of icing on the cake....

Aye, good point.
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Offline ouestlereferee

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #84 on: January 9, 2008, 01:17:00 AM »
I was quite suprised with how strong/first-team based the side was that Rafa used against Luton. Not to underestimate Luton, but you know what I mean.. In the CC however, we tend to play a side strong enough to win, but with as much youth in the side as possible.

i suspect rafa was trying to mitigate us losing, and hoping that a game against softer opponents might help kuyt & crouch find their shooting boots again...  lucas, babel, & alonso were probably just getting gametime - they need it for one reason or another.   my guess would be that benayoun was the insurance policy, he'd win the game if the latter 3 were lacking matchfitness & former 2 were continuing their bad form.  can't understand such a strong defence though....

Offline Sarge

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #85 on: January 9, 2008, 01:17:13 AM »
i mean, regardless of how we are doing, sarge, regardless of the situation with the owners, if at any stage, a manager spent 15m on two players, who then looked poor compared to the average player in the ressies (not even the starlets), then it would hit is job security big time...

Possibly yes but these are players who may go soon anyway. But i feel the young players when ready players should get a chance in the CC or FA Cup if possibly (and i mean Luton type games) because if noit how will we know if they can cut it or not?
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Offline Pr0n

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #86 on: January 9, 2008, 01:18:57 AM »
i mean, regardless of how we are doing, sarge, regardless of the situation with the owners, if at any stage, a manager spent 15m on two players, who then looked poor compared to the average player in the ressies (not even the starlets), then it would hit is job security big time...

If a manager of a top team would be so stupid to play first teamers in the reserves (unless they needed match-fitness - say coming back from injury), it would hardly go down well with anyone and a lot of people in the club would start to question the manager. It would'nt matter how the players looked.
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Offline ouestlereferee

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #87 on: January 9, 2008, 01:25:29 AM »
I think you misunderstand what I mean, I might be writing out of my ass with the typos etc.

Playing senior players in the reserves takes away places in the reserve team. Which means that less of those youngsters (who actually get some kind of benefit in playing in the reserves) will get into the team. If you'd have Voronin and Momo running about in the reserves, you'd get two pissed off first teamers and two pissed off reserves..

i did misunderstand you.  i thought you meant that two first teamers would be pissed off and two youths who aren't able to play football - that's why i was saying we shouldn't have them!   turns out i only got the first part right.

you have a valid point, here, i've never really thought about it in general before, but certainly in the specific case, as i mentioned earlier, we can't have lindfield, brouwer, and nemeth all knocking around the ressies because pacheco & bruna need gametime too.  and there are only 2 slots in the team (allow me to assume bruna must play as a forward here, rather than complicating by saying he can also play wide).  i would say the aim should be for pacheco to be starting for the remainder of the season, with bruna doing what pacheco has been at for the first half of the season (making cameos), with bruna working towards a few starts by the end of the season.  much as i think nemeth is great, he seems to have mastered it at reserve level so, if the first team's not going to use him at all, he may benefit most from being loaned out.  despite brouwer being the worst of them, in a way, we should hang on to him, because it seems loaning out nemeth (if not promoted to first team) and lindfield will actually leave us with better players in the long run (also give pacheco & bruna the best chance)

Offline Pr0n

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #88 on: January 9, 2008, 01:25:55 AM »
Possibly yes but these are players who may go soon anyway. But i feel the young players when ready players should get a chance in the CC or FA Cup if possibly (and i mean Luton type games) because if noit how will we know if they can cut it or not?


It's not like the level and development of youths is'nt checked by the staff. I mean, they KNOW what level each player is on. It's not like us here guessing that this player or that could do with a shot at it. And as you know, young players go on loan to get first team experience on a higher level than reserves (where they themselves and their coaches at LFC get a better view on wheter they will cut it or not). And for a talanted-enough player it is then easier to do something with the first-team chance you get.
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Offline Pr0n

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #89 on: January 9, 2008, 01:28:59 AM »
i did misunderstand you.  i thought you meant that two first teamers would be pissed off and two youths who aren't able to play football - that's why i was saying we shouldn't have them!   turns out i only got the first part right.

you have a valid point, here, i've never really thought about it in general before, but certainly in the specific case, as i mentioned earlier, we can't have lindfield, brouwer, and nemeth all knocking around the ressies because pacheco & bruna need gametime too.  and there are only 2 slots in the team (allow me to assume bruna must play as a forward here, rather than complicating by saying he can also play wide).  i would say the aim should be for pacheco to be starting for the remainder of the season, with bruna doing what pacheco has been at for the first half of the season (making cameos), with bruna working towards a few starts by the end of the season.  much as i think nemeth is great, he seems to have mastered it at reserve level so, if the first team's not going to use him at all, he may benefit most from being loaned out.  despite brouwer being the worst of them, in a way, we should hang on to him, because it seems loaning out nemeth (if not promoted to first team) and lindfield will actually leave us with better players in the long run (also give pacheco & bruna the best chance)


Seems like a fair assumption. I don't feel qualified to make a certain claim about certain players in the reserves but I like the way you reason here.
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Offline ouestlereferee

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #90 on: January 9, 2008, 01:30:03 AM »
Possibly yes but these are players who may go soon anyway.

true.  but if kuyt & sissoko are shown up by brouwer & plessis in the ressies are we going to get anything like the same money for them?  the risk of playing them in the ressies is like shouting out that the emperor actually has no clothes so couldn't possibly have had his shirt tugged when he went down in the box...

But i feel the young players when ready players should get a chance in the CC or FA Cup if possibly (and i mean Luton type games) because if noit how will we know if they can cut it or not?

yes i'm with you on being better at giving the youngsters more of a chance.

Offline Sarge

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #91 on: January 9, 2008, 01:31:56 AM »

It's not like the level and development of youths is'nt checked by the staff. I mean, they KNOW what level each player is on. It's not like us here guessing that this player or that could do with a shot at it. And as you know, young players go on loan to get first team experience on a higher level than reserves (where they themselves and their coaches at LFC get a better view on wheter they will cut it or not). And for a talanted-enough player it is then easier to do something with the first-team chance you get.


I know that but are Youth Players been sacrificed because the Club will not drop first team players?
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Offline ouestlereferee

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #92 on: January 9, 2008, 01:32:11 AM »
If a manager of a top team would be so stupid to play first teamers in the reserves (unless they needed match-fitness - say coming back from injury), it would hardly go down well with anyone and a lot of people in the club would start to question the manager. It would'nt matter how the players looked.

you can always make up stories about injuries ;)

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Offline Sarge

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #93 on: January 9, 2008, 01:34:09 AM »
true.  but if kuyt & sissoko are shown up by brouwer & plessis in the ressies are we going to get anything like the same money for them?  the risk of playing them in the ressies is like shouting out that the emperor actually has no clothes so couldn't possibly have had his shirt tugged when he went down in the box...

Fair point.
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Offline ouestlereferee

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #94 on: January 9, 2008, 01:37:34 AM »

I know that but are Youth Players been sacrificed because the Club will not drop first team players?

i wouldn't say it's an issue of dropping, really.

i think the problem is that we are not integrating these players through substitution decisions.  take sunday, for example.  rafa could have easily started with insua at left back, riise at left wing, and babel up front with kuyt (crouchie could have been rested).  then at an appropriate time, or if insua was crap, he could have taken him off for nemeth, putting babel on the left wing and riise at left back.  i think this is the type of scenario i'd like to see a little more from rafa.

Offline Art Vandelay

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #95 on: January 9, 2008, 01:39:07 AM »
Kuyt and Sissoko would not get shown up in the ressies, they'd easily be a class above.
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Offline Pr0n

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #96 on: January 9, 2008, 01:39:20 AM »

I know that but are Youth Players been sacrificed because the Club will not drop first team players?

I don't think the risk is very great for that (we are quick to loan out players - and not have them playing in the reserves when it's not at their/our benefit), although I think we can make the squad smaller in the summer. The squad size is very much down to the quality of it, I think - we have had to be on the safe side as we've made a lot of changes each summer. Now we could do in cutting down a bit, with only a couple of places under real scrutiny. We have some promising players coming back from loan also.. f.i. Anderson could be able to compete for a place.
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Offline Sarge

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #97 on: January 9, 2008, 01:39:46 AM »
i wouldn't say it's an issue of dropping, really.

i think the problem is that we are not integrating these players through substitution decisions.  take sunday, for example.  rafa could have easily started with insua at left back, riise at left wing, and babel up front with kuyt (crouchie could have been rested).  then at an appropriate time, or if insua was crap, he could have taken him off for nemeth, putting babel on the left wing and riise at left back.  i think this is the type of scenario i'd like to see a little more from rafa.

Will not disagree but kinda answers my question do you not think?
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Offline Sarge

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #98 on: January 9, 2008, 01:47:07 AM »
Kuyt and Sissoko would not get shown up in the ressies, they'd easily be a class above.

Maybe but not much use being their i know unless some kids get a chance.
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Offline ouestlereferee

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #99 on: January 9, 2008, 01:48:38 AM »
Kuyt and Sissoko would not get shown up in the ressies, they'd easily be a class above.

it's a hypothetical sceneario, art.

Offline Art Vandelay

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #100 on: January 9, 2008, 01:49:59 AM »
Maybe but not much use being their i know unless some kids get a chance.
We shouldn't play any of the first team squad in the ressies, unless they are returning from injury and need games.  Rafa has definately got this part right.
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Offline ouestlereferee

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #101 on: January 9, 2008, 01:53:47 AM »
Will not disagree but kinda answers my question do you not think?

i don't think i'd want to start all the ressies in a game like this, but rafa could be doing more to get them involved e.g. suppose he did my suggestion, then maybe he can play insua for all of the next leg, and this time do a similar thing on the right, with stephen darby.  then match by match, 1 by 1 you're building players in, before you know it you've got 4 or 5 lads playing in the cups who may not really feature at all in the league that year, just like arsenal...

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #102 on: January 9, 2008, 01:55:36 AM »
It's the Under 18 lads Rafa has brought in that also look very promising

Amoo, Eccleston and Pourie

Eccleston in particular is scoring for fun with all kinds of efforts.

Amoo is the antz pantz on FM2008.

Offline Sarge

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #103 on: January 9, 2008, 01:56:41 AM »
Amoo is the antz pantz on FM2008.

Oh dear.
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Offline Sarge

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #104 on: January 9, 2008, 01:57:02 AM »
i don't think i'd want to start all the ressies in a game like this, but rafa could be doing more to get them involved e.g. suppose he did my suggestion, then maybe he can play insua for all of the next leg, and this time do a similar thing on the right, with stephen darby.  then match by match, 1 by 1 you're building players in, before you know it you've got 4 or 5 lads playing in the cups who may not really feature at all in the league that year, just like arsenal...

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Offline Fanxxxxtastic

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #105 on: January 9, 2008, 01:58:29 AM »
I've been excited by our youngsters and reserves so far this season, and hope they go on to dizzying heights.
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Offline Fanxxxxtastic

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #106 on: January 9, 2008, 02:00:48 AM »
Amoo is the antz pantz on FM2008.

Amoo has proved to be a class act so far, just like Nathan Ecclestone and Marvin Pourie.  All three have scored some fantastic goals in the U18's.
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Offline ouestlereferee

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #107 on: January 9, 2008, 02:01:51 AM »
I've been excited by our youngsters and reserves so far this season, and hope they go on to dizzying heights.

if bruna turns out to be the next messi, pacheco the next owen, and nemeth the next van nistelrooy i'll be fairly happy too!

Offline ouestlereferee

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #108 on: January 9, 2008, 02:04:11 AM »
Amoo has proved to be a class act so far, just like Nathan Ecclestone and Marvin Pourie.  All three have scored some fantastic goals in the U18's.

they are in the u18s tho.  there's a step up to the ressies, and then the step to the first team.  i'd doubt any of them will even feature as an unused sub for the firsts next season....

Offline Sarge

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #109 on: January 9, 2008, 02:04:43 AM »
if bruna turns out to be the next messi, pacheco the next owen, and nemeth the next van nistelrooy i'll be fairly happy too!

Fairly Happy is an understatement.
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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #110 on: January 9, 2008, 02:10:11 AM »
if bruna turns out to be the next messi, pacheco the next owen, and nemeth the next van nistelrooy i'll be fairly happy too!

Sorry, I forgot these 3 lads too, who have been superb at the same time.

There's a lot to look forward too in the youth and reserve teams.  That's why I want Rafa to stay.  You just know that he'll be the best person to nurture these lads.
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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #111 on: January 9, 2008, 02:25:13 AM »
Fairly Happy is an understatement.

:)

Offline ouestlereferee

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #112 on: January 9, 2008, 02:25:51 AM »
Sorry, I forgot these 3 lads too, who have been superb at the same time.

There's a lot to look forward too in the youth and reserve teams.  That's why I want Rafa to stay.  You just know that he'll be the best person to nurture these lads.

100% agreed there!

Offline b_joseph

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #113 on: January 9, 2008, 06:18:57 AM »
3 that I think will make it...

Mikel San Jose -
Very cultured defender. Needs to fill out the body somewhat and he isnt overly quick. Similar to a right footed Agger, but without that crazy shooting ability.
Looks very comfortable in the Reserves and has very rarely been stitched up or appeared to be out of place.

Plessis -
Sissoko with a first touch and the ability to play the simple ball. Hasnt shown much of an ability to get forward but I'd think that would develop in time.
Another one who needs to fill out his frame. Not overly aggressive in a tackle, but isnt afraid to get stuck in.

Nemeth -
He is class. Again not a blazing runner, but quick enough. Very quick feet with the ball and always looking to do something positive when he has it.
Only seen him in 3 games, but he has scored every single type of goal that you would want from a forward.
For some reason, he reminds me of a young Michael Owen. But without the pace and with more flair.

Offline Redshadow

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #114 on: January 9, 2008, 06:21:03 AM »
Sorry, I forgot these 3 lads too, who have been superb at the same time.

There's a lot to look forward too in the youth and reserve teams.  That's why I want Rafa to stay.  You just know that he'll be the best person to nurture these lads.

Exactly my sentiment.
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Offline b_joseph

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #115 on: January 9, 2008, 06:26:39 AM »
Sorry, I forgot these 3 lads too, who have been superb at the same time.

There's a lot to look forward too in the youth and reserve teams.  That's why I want Rafa to stay.  You just know that he'll be the best person to nurture these lads.
Well, there isnt really much proof of that, but I still kinda agree with it.

Offline Sarge

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #116 on: January 9, 2008, 12:37:44 PM »
Really looking forward to see Nemeth play.
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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #117 on: January 9, 2008, 01:17:12 PM »
I think Rafa should include at least one of these players (especially the forwards) in the squad when we play against what we perceive 'easy' opposition. If we are leading, a young forward player brought on has very little to lose and everything to gain from staying on the pitch. And besides, I seriously can't see how they can do worse (i.e be less threatening to the opposition goal) than 2 of our current set of first team forwards.
"A Football team is like a Piano: You need 8 people to carry it and 3 to play the damn thing" - Shankly

Offline a partridge in seat_5c

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #118 on: January 9, 2008, 01:21:17 PM »
Who in your opinion will make the first 16 soon?

none of them

Rafa doesn't trust young players, you've only got to look at Babel to see that and he's one of the most exciting prospects in World football and cost £10m

so what chance has some half-arsed kid from the academy got of making a 16 ?

might as well freeze this thread and re-open it in 3 years time, maybe 5, or more likely when we've got another manager

Anderson's the nearest and I can't see him even getting a game in the next 2 years

the worry is that most if not all of these lads will simply not wait until they are 22 or 23 to get a game and will move on, after all who wants to join a club at 15 or 16 (earlier for the local kids) and not play for 7 or 8 years ?

the lad at Palace, Bostock, is reported today as not wanting to go to Arsenal or Chelsea, and who can blame him, he'll probably not get a first team game for 6 or 7 years whereas at Palace he could be playing regularly in a couple of years

Offline leiva-pool

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #119 on: January 9, 2008, 01:28:14 PM »
I'll comment on the ones i think have a chance:

Insua - I have high hopes for this lad and im really surprised he hasnt broken through yet considering Rafa gave him games at the back end of last season. I also think the injuries to Aurelio has prevented him from making appearances in the carling cup as rafa used Aurelio in those games to get more match practice. If i had to describe the way he plays, he can attack but not with the speed of an Evra or a clichy, he's not that type of a left back. I would say he has a better cross than those 2 players and is probably better defensively as well. I would have him ahead of Riise in the pecking order so that says alot about how i rate him.

Pacheco - Havent seen much of him but what i have seen is this lad has vision and skill. He was highly rated at Barca and i think we have a real gem here. He is only 16 but i think once he gets more physique as he gets older he's a definite first teamer. I would be surprised if he doesnt break through before he is 20.

Nemeth - Like others have said he knows where the back of the net is. Always in the right place as well. I dont think he's ready for the first team yet, looks a bit light but given how poor Voronin is i would actually give him some minutes against Luton and against Swansea in the next round and take it from there.

Bruna - I havent seen the lad play at all but he was very highly rated at Madrid so that says a lot.
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