Topic: Youth and Under 23 Thread

[Cpt_Reina]

Think Everton have an ace up their sleeve too when it comes to youth recruitment to be honest.

Similar to the one we'll play when competing with the likes of City or Chelsea for a kid.

Everton have the 'We're skint' card to play. Kids will get more of a chance there then they will here because there's less competition above them then there will be here.

Just like we'll no doubt say to any kid being chased by City that with their mega millions they're always more likely to go out and spend rather then give a kid a chance. Whereas we're not as well off, so we'll look at what we already have.

[emitime]

It's not really, we don't know who you are.

Hi, I'm Emitime and I'm a month older than Martin Kelly.

I fear I may have made it un-bizarre by defining myself like this... oops.

[babraham]

I think the problem with LFC was the state of the overall academy, which Rafa identified.  The problem was you just can't strip everything you have to have your priorities. I think Rafa etc believed first get the right coaches in at reserve and U18’s, once that is moving in the right direction focus U16’s.  Then start working on the low age groups. Bringing in loads of coaches at one time at every age group would have caused a huge problem, especially seeing  you wanted to change the whole mind set of the way you want the coaching to go.  Also finding the coaches to take the  youngster in the direction the club wants isn’t as easy as it may seem. I believe this is why LFC are also very much interested in developing  Liverpool players  past and present who they think can provide the right type of coaching just not  in skill, but the mental side of the game.

It will be interesting to see how this Nextgen series affects this sort of domestic academy dynamic as the tournament seems to have some serious legs now.

It appears  likely that Nextgen will eventually end up in a format that mirrors the champions league with the difference being that it will be a closed shop for the larger clubs and a few others that got on board early. The maximum number of competitors is likely to be capped at 32. Presumably they won’t want more than 6 or so clubs from any one country.

Where this leaves the likes of Everton and Blackburn  is an interesting question. If they essentially find themselves excluded from the top level  of youth football, will their academies still prove such a draw to top kids in the 12-16 bracket?

This is of course  reliant on Nextgen not folding before it is fully established. But the benefits of it for the clubs and players involved seem too significant for that to happen.

For our players this is clearly now (so far as they are concerned) the top tournament behind first team football. Aside from exposing them to a stronger  standard of football and different footballing  philosophies there is the  benefit of the general experience. The experience of being flown out to big cities as a team. The experience of staying in hotels as a team. The experience of walking out at some of the most famous stadiums in the world.  The experience of warming up in front of crowds and the TV cameras whilst the likes of Jamie Redknapp talk about you. The experience of playing in front of potentially quite sizeable TV audiences. Tournaments like the FA Youth cup offer this sort of thing once or twice a season if they are lucky.

The benefits for the clubs involved are also potentially enormous. Aside from the whole player development thing and it making the academy a more attractive to potential recruits, I also get the feeling that the eyes of the likes of Werner and Ayres have lit up over the potential of this format.  US ‘college football’ like levels of popularity is probably the dream. Whilst that is clearly pretty fanciful Nextgen nonetheless  looks likely to become the bedrock of LFC TV for the foreseeable future, at least until the first team match rights situation changes. From speaking to someone involved with LFC TV, they think the game against Spurs came close to rivalling some of the viewing figures they have seen for smaller preseason friendly games. That might not sound like much but remember it is very early days for the tournament and the likes of Channel  5 pay fairly handsomely for friendly games with viewing figures not exactly out of sight of that level. Give it another few years, involve the likes of Real, United, Bayern, PSG etc and there really might be some reasonable direct financial return for those involved.

The other side to this coin is of course that it may see us throwing ever increasing amounts of money around to secure the brighter prospects at other clubs, with the inevitable result that opportunities for ‘well regarded’ local talent will diminish further. So I guess such desertions may well increase to the advantage of other domestic academies. Also, presumably at some stage the FA will respond and introduce a replacement for the reserve league which might change the equation further.

It will certainly be interesting to see how things develop for the next few years.

Good posts.

[Stanfo]

Big Premier League Tournament in London for U14's next week, it will be interesting how the local clubs do. The last two Premier League Events, 11 aside pre season and Futsal last week, at U14/15 were won surprisingly by Fulham. Just shows you that the usual pecking order means little at youth level.

[royhendo]

Fulham, as run by Billy "Badger" McKinlay, with a little help from Mr Elias no? Their youth system's had a lot of investment hasn't it?

[Cybertom]

The potential problem with NextGen is that it could become like the champions league and only seeing the top teams get entered into the competition. This will corrupt football even more in my opinion. Younger players will see NextGen and want to play, thus leaving their home clubs to join the traditional larger teams, again making domestic leagues more centered around a neculetic core. Imagine if say Liverpool, United and Arsenal were the only English teams allowed to enter the NextGen; a large majority (not all since NextGen isn't comparable to the champions league in terms of prestige and accomplishment) of talented youngsters would be vying for a move to the 3 teams.
Even the U18 leagues could become further divided, thus possibly discouraging motivation in youngsters all together.
Exaggerative I may be, but all the problems I have discussed are exactly what the Champions League and
sky have caused. I would hate to see the same happen at youth level.

[CraigDS]

I don't think NextGen carries as much pull as the CL to be honest.

Most kids of 17-19 as they are in this competition would rather be somewhere they'll get game time in the future for the firsts rather than play a season or two (whats that, 7 games or something a season?) in the NextGen.

[fredfrop]

We saw the compensation that lower league clubs will get from Premier league teams has been renegotiated in the big boys favour.  Perhaps Comolli has done his sums / risk analysis and decided it's now a lot better value / risk to buy very promising younger players from lower leagues here and overseas.  Where that leaves a future scouse heart for the team is less obvious.

[mercury]

I was speaking to one of their coaches before the game and he commented on how we don't really punch our weight at academy level, considering the money we spend, a fair point.

Hi Stanfo, what did the guy mean that we are not punching our weight at academy level?  That we are not really into local lads or what?  Just want to clarify

[Stanfo]

Hi Stanfo, what did the guy mean that we are not punching our weight at academy level?  That we are not really into local lads or what?  Just want to clarify

Not really sure to be honest mate. He knew I have had dealings with the academy and was maybe fishing for some views. Everton are rightly very proud of their academy and until recently produced many pros from a set of portakabins in Netherton, which was amazing really. Their new academy is excellent, one of the best in the country and they just seem to have a more holistic approach to youth development.

We have recently brought some kids through to the fringe of the 1st team and indeed beyond, but no more than they have on limited resources. As I said yesterday it is the next 5 years that will be the true guide to the recent changes, as most of the recent locals to come through are in fact a product of a number of different regimes at Kirkby. Indeed in the 4 years we were there three different football philosophies were in control, Heighway, the dutch and the spanish, very confusing for the lads.

Just to reitterate I think we are moving forward in many areas, however it is lazy for a club with our facilities, resources and appeal to be allowing other local clubs to be dominating the earlier years. It isn't about money, as the younger ages are no cost apart from coaching and scouting, as the infrastructure is already in place, a big, well funded club like ours should have the visionary leadership in place to see the whole picture, not just the cherry on the top in the shape of the youth team, which is actually not quite as good as many think.

Results are not everything at this level, however along with player progression they are one of the main parameters whether we like it or not as the two go hand in hand.

[Kochevnik]

Spearing joined at 8 according to Jimmy Rice's recent column on lfc.tv, Martin Kelly at 7 according to Wikipedia. No idea on the other two.

It's completely bizarre to think I'm a month older than Kelly...

Wait until you get a bit older and most of the players are younger than you.  I'm a few months younger than Gerrard, and still consider myself pretty young.  It's really odd to read posts like "well, with Gerrard on the downslope of his career" or talking about how he's past it.  Even though it's true that his best years are behind him, it's still weird to think that about someone who's the same age as you.

[hassinator]

It will certainly be interesting to see how things develop for the next few years.

 

really interesting post.  nextgen as college football is a very interesting comparison and given both the longevity and general health of this thread there's clearly a base level support for increasing interest in youth football.  not sure if its necessarily bad for local youth talent as the club will always want to have the best of that and perhaps if things take off their will be increasing focus on squad composition rather like the first team.

[Johnny Foreigner]

Maybe I'm totally off the mark, but is it necessary the case that the academies of the top clubs is the best feeding ground for the exceptional talents and the ones that would really be the top 5 % ?

There is the obvious element of (supposedly) good coaches, good facilites, a competitive environment and a appreciation of what it takes to make it to the top..

At the other end, there is a pre-dominant focus on results at a early age; strict tactical approach, relatively less possibility/space to express themselves for the truly gifted and all kinds of politics where the players are not at focus..

Just for interest, I've taken a look at some of the players that were my favourites - gascoigne, lineker, waddle and hoddle - they're all having different backgrounds and none seem to be from the "talent factory approach"..

I've also taken a look at the most profilic goal scorer in Norway of all times; Solskjær. He was raised in a small city on the western coast of norway and he has always hailed two coaches to be of his major importance; ferguson and his boyhood-coach in Clausenengen where he grew up..

He had his senior debut at 17 (norwegian league 2) which is footballing wise pretty crap but its physical..  He scored 115 goals in 109 games facing senior players.. That experience he would never have got under a academy umbrella..

[Saul Goodman]

U18s match with Wolves tomorrow has been postponed due to a frozen pitch.

[Johnny Foreigner]

From a relatively recent Johan Cruyff-interview :

So what is the Cruyff vision exactly?

“We look at a dozen characteristics per player. We skip the whole age thing, we look at the players from a development perspective. Some are mature when they’re 14 years old, others need more time. We look at technical skills and physical strength, but also intelligence, communication skills and character. It’s a dynamic system where we develop individual development plans per player. And we use different experts for different things. One player might work every day with a running coach, to improve his speed, while another player doesn’t need that, but the other one needs a lot of video work, to allow him to develop his vision… I don’t give a rats’ ass what kind of results the youth teams get. I don’t want them to win titles. I don’t believe winning youth titles work that well. They get complacent. I want them to struggle, haha. A good left winger needs to play right full back for a spell. To get him to see things in perspective. ”"

[Cpt_Reina]

Interesting reading that from Cruyff.

Particularly the 'winning' part. Goes contrary to what Borrell seems to believe. Not that he's motivated by simply winning and not developing. But he regularly says what a difference instilling that winning mentality can make. He always wants the lads to strive to win.

[exiledinyorkshire]

Thats a very interesting quote. Johnny, well found.

[Johnny Foreigner]

Interesting reading that from Cruyff.

Particularly the 'winning' part. Goes contrary to what Borrell seems to believe. Not that he's motivated by simply winning and not developing. But he regularly says what a difference instilling that winning mentality can make. He always wants the lads to strive to win.

Agree, but I suspect there is a little bit of showing off there.. I assume if you're a 15-year old in Ajax, you're not considering to quit football due to losing too many games..

[gorgepir]

I think what we are missing at all levels is this winning mentality. It is a bit hard to win while not developing at the same time. Plus, once you get the taste of winning, it is hard to settle for less.

[Cpt_Reina]

Agree, but I suspect there is a little bit of showing off there.. I assume if you're a 15-year old in Ajax, you're not considering to quit football due to losing too many games..

I think its more of a case that he believes they'll work harder if they struggle. Whereas a team that's always winning might coast along.

The contrast in ideologies is interesting.

Borrell is always striving for perfection, he seems a lot like Rafa in that way. He'll regularly dish out a bit of a bollocking in his post match comments even if we win. "We should have had more" seems to be a favourite of his. He said exactly that midweek after we beat Norwich 4-0.

He seems to hate it if we ease up. I cant profess to know too much about Barca's system but I think its fairly similar there, unsurprising considering that's where he came from. But they appear to go out to absolutely demolish whoever it is they play against. 5-0 isnt acceptable if it could've been 6-0.

[babraham]

From a relatively recent Johan Cruyff-interview :

So what is the Cruyff vision exactly?

“We look at a dozen characteristics per player. We skip the whole age thing, we look at the players from a development perspective. Some are mature when they’re 14 years old, others need more time. We look at technical skills and physical strength, but also intelligence, communication skills and character. It’s a dynamic system where we develop individual development plans per player. And we use different experts for different things. One player might work every day with a running coach, to improve his speed, while another player doesn’t need that, but the other one needs a lot of video work, to allow him to develop his vision… I don’t give a rats’ ass what kind of results the youth teams get. I don’t want them to win titles. I don’t believe winning youth titles work that well. They get complacent. I want them to struggle, haha. A good left winger needs to play right full back for a spell. To get him to see things in perspective. ”"

Wow, very interesting!

[Johnny Foreigner]

I think its more of a case that he believes they'll work harder if they struggle. Whereas a team that's always winning might coast along.

The contrast in ideologies is interesting.

Borrell is always striving for perfection, he seems a lot like Rafa in that way. He'll regularly dish out a bit of a bollocking in his post match comments even if we win. "We should have had more" seems to be a favourite of his. He said exactly that midweek after we beat Norwich 4-0.

He seems to hate it if we ease up. I cant profess to know too much about Barca's system but I think its fairly similar there, unsurprising considering that's where he came from. But they appear to go out to absolutely demolish whoever it is they play against. 5-0 isnt acceptable if it could've been 6-0.

I agree. It would also be interesting to see the differences amongst the countries/club on how they compensate their players in terms of wage structure on the individual age levels..

I got the impression that the english clubs are at the forefront (or backfront) while some of the more of the major classical breeders doesn't go down that path until they get older..

[Chirpy Red]

Joao Teixeira already on twitter: https://twitter.com/#!/JoaoCTeixeira8

[Cpt_Reina]

Another player who many seem to forget how young he is. Only just turned 20.

WILSON ENJOYING BLACKPOOL EXPERIENCE

Blackpool defender Danny Wilson believes he is reaping the benefits of regular first team football at the club.

The 20-year-old, on-loan from Liverpool, made his fifth appearance of the campaign at Sheffield Wednesday on Tuesday night, on the back of an assured showing in last weekend's win over Cardiff.

But with Ian Evatt returning from suspension and Craig Cathcart likely to figure, competition for places is at an all-time high and he won't be taking a third consecutive start for granted.

"They'll be hoping to get back in the side and I could be on the bench or not involved at all, there is that much competition for places," said Wilson.

"It's always good though. You have to be at your very best to get in the side at the moment and I will have to accept whatever decision the manager makes.

"I'm feeling a lot better on the pitch - that was my fifth game now in a matter of weeks, rather than two in about five months at Liverpool, so I've felt the benefit.

"My match fitness is there and it's taken a few games to get it back but when you know that you have it, it gives you confidence."

Wilson initially built his reputation as a ball-playing centre-half at Rangers, something that has made his transition to Blackpool's free-flowing style all the easier.

"The football here is suiting my game perfectly. I'm a defender who likes to play the ball out from the back and the manager encourages us to do that," Wilson added.

"It's good to watch for supporters and it's a style that is working well for us at the moment because we're winning football matches.

"We put on a quality performance on Tuesday night and everybody wants to keep kicking on now and we're all confident that we can finish high up the table.

"In the last few weeks we've had to score goals in the last minutes of games and in an ideal world we'd be in control of things a lot earlier on.

"But we can't afford to get complacent, we have to stay focused and give it our all."

http://www.blackpoolfc.co.uk/page/NewsDetail/0,,10432~2606467,00.html

[Juan Loco]

Is Wilson actually doing well there? I saw a bit of him against Cardiff and he looked quite good, but in general?

[Saint Kopite]

Is Wilson actually doing well there? I saw a bit of him against Cardiff and he looked quite good, but in general?

I asked Tangerine Dreaming on Twitter about Wilsons's performances and this is what he tweeted back to me:-

He has been excellent up to now. A couple of errors, but I'm writing something on him that will be ready next wk.

[d gorgeous one haz spoken]

Regarding the Cruyff and Ajax method and probably already known by most on here, but this part

And we use different experts for different things

is taken very seriously at de Toekomst. The individual technique coaches for the 1st team and youth are the likes of Bergkamp, Jaap Stam, Overmars, Edgar Davids, Ronald de Boer and Edwin van der Sar.

[Adeemo]

Another player who many seem to forget how young he is. Only just turned 20.

WILSON ENJOYING BLACKPOOL EXPERIENCE

Blackpool defender Danny Wilson believes he is reaping the benefits of regular first team football at the club.

The 20-year-old, on-loan from Liverpool, made his fifth appearance of the campaign at Sheffield Wednesday on Tuesday night, on the back of an assured showing in last weekend's win over Cardiff.

But with Ian Evatt returning from suspension and Craig Cathcart likely to figure, competition for places is at an all-time high and he won't be taking a third consecutive start for granted.

http://www.blackpoolfc.co.uk/page/NewsDetail/0,,10432~2606467,00.html

If he can't get a game ahead of Ian Evatt then I'd be very worried about Wilson's chances of playing regularly at a high level, Evatt's a donkey, a terrible player.

[Cpt_Reina]

I asked Tangerine Dreaming on Twitter about Wilsons's performances and this is what he tweeted back to me:-

He has been excellent up to now. A couple of errors, but I'm writing something on him that will be ready next wk.

Be on the lookout for that then.

Usually pretty spot on is Tangerine Dreaming.

[bigbear]

I asked Tangerine Dreaming on Twitter about Wilsons's performances and this is what he tweeted back to me:-

He has been excellent up to now. A couple of errors, but I'm writing something on him that will be ready next wk.

These lads need to play. They are competitive animals and poncing around in reserve team football earning 20k a week makes them forget what they are all about.

Get them out on loan and monitor them closely. A ball playing 20 yr old centre back who is doing really well in the Championship (if he is) is the type of player we would be looking at so that's what he's got to aspire to. Same with Jonjo who was scoring for fun at that level from midfield. A 20 goal 19 yr old midfield player in the Championship is probably worth 10m to somebody depending on the kind of player he is.

Maybe next year, a full year in thebottom half of the Prem is needed or at least play for us in the UEFA and League Cup until December and then go out.

Players need to play !

[Dudek]

From a relatively recent Johan Cruyff-interview :

So what is the Cruyff vision exactly?

“A good left winger needs to play right full back for a spell. To get him to see things in perspective. ”"

guess thats what we've done with Pelosi?

[trembles97]

I've always liked Wilson, people were too harsh for his performances at left back last season. Wouldn't be surprised if he made a good career at LFC or elsewhere. If he has the right attitude, he could be a Spearing-like player for us. He'd still start for Scotland if that ended up being the case.

[bigbear]

I've always liked Wilson, people were too harsh for his performances at left back last season. Wouldn't be surprised if he made a good career at LFC or elsewhere. If he has the right attitude, he could be a Spearing-like player for us. He'd still start for Scotland if that ended up being the case.

He looked bored to death playing in the reserves and he is clearly not a left back in a million years. He needs game time, he is a big lad and he looked a bit heavy last year. Get him out on loan for a year and then we can see what we've got.

I really hope Blackpool get promoted this season. Would be great for our youth development.

[SteLFC91]

Shelvey is back on twitter I've just found out.

http://twitter.com/#!/jshelvey33

[Cpt_Reina]

He looked bored to death playing in the reserves and he is clearly not a left back in a million years. He needs game time, he is a big lad and he looked a bit heavy last year. Get him out on loan for a year and then we can see what we've got.

I really hope Blackpool get promoted this season. Would be great for our youth development.

Wilson basically sat on his hands for a year and a half. It did him no favours.

This loan move is exactly what he needed. Like you say, he just looked so bored. He was caught in that limbo between the first team and the reserves that meant he wasnt even getting that many minutes in the ressies. It can be deadly.

Wonder how many more years he has on his contract, because ideally you'd send him out for a full season next year. Hopefully to the Prem.

[trembles97]

It will be interesting to see if the club treats Coady, Wisdom, Flanno, Robbo, etc. like they did with Wilson last year. If they do, we're going to have some unhappy players on our hands if they don't get first team time along with the reserve league games.

But, I do remember hearing that Wilson turned down a couple loan opportunities both last season and earlier this season. Could be wrong though.

[Phil M]

Hi, I'm Emitime and I'm a month older than Martin Kelly.

I fear I may have made it un-bizarre by defining myself like this... oops.

[Saul Goodman]

From a relatively recent Johan Cruyff-interview :

So what is the Cruyff vision exactly?

“We look at a dozen characteristics per player. We skip the whole age thing, we look at the players from a development perspective. Some are mature when they’re 14 years old, others need more time. We look at technical skills and physical strength, but also intelligence, communication skills and character. It’s a dynamic system where we develop individual development plans per player. And we use different experts for different things. One player might work every day with a running coach, to improve his speed, while another player doesn’t need that, but the other one needs a lot of video work, to allow him to develop his vision… I don’t give a rats’ ass what kind of results the youth teams get. I don’t want them to win titles. I don’t believe winning youth titles work that well. They get complacent. I want them to struggle, haha. A good left winger needs to play right full back for a spell. To get him to see things in perspective. ”"

This is one of the most interesting things he says and often overlooked but I would say it's one of the most interesting and most likely underdeveloped aspects when dealing with young footballers. The difference in drive/determination between a range of kids the same age is going to be huge. Do you sleep, eat , breathe football or couldn't be bothered with it outside of training/games ?

Personal motivations ? I don't like singling anyone out and I am not saying he wasn't a motivated chap before but having a kid makes life just that little bit more real and the need to succeed that little bit more great!

Even just things such as maturity levels will fluctuate wildly between kids of similar age. That doesn't just translate into off field stuff but things like being self aware, less selfish, etc matter as much on a football field as they do in life.

[iiqae]

are we assuming tex will make his debut against sunderland on tuesday?
can't watch that game but i can't wait to see what this kid can do on the pitch with our players.

[kopitecrash]

Would've thought individual training plans would be the norm at any team to be honest. Otherwise you'll get very mixed results with regards to player improvement.