Topic: Isle of Man TT tragedy

[rob1966]

You are just explaining how this should not be legal. My point was that the entrants pretty much know that someone is going to die. It’s not 50/50 like the example I gave and neither of them wanted to die either.

You cannot live other people's lives for them, just because you don't want to do it doesn't mean they can't. Yes it's dangerous, yes you risk your life, yes it takes a certain type of nutter to do it, but they want to do it. I risk my life everytime I wheel my bike out of the garage and ride on the roads, but I refuse to stop as its a part of me (in fact most racers will tell you they don't ride on the road as its too dangerous,). Bikers, both road and race are a strange bunch, we don't like being told what to do by people too scared to do what we do. The racers at the TT missed the event during covid, they couldn't wait to get back, it's the pinnacle of the sport for them.

[MadErik]

It’s a terrible cliche, but it’s true - those that have lost their lives to road racing died doing what they loved. You have to love it to keep coming back. Michael Dunlop has lost three family members but continues to race.

If they banned it, I’m not sure what would happen, but I’ve a fair idea that people would still race the circuit in some unregulated/unofficial format.

[Indomitable_Carp]

Just to echo everyone else in here, of course its horrible when people die, but things like the TT are a purely personal choice. As SoS said it is not like the Grand National where horses who have no real choice are getting put down every year from broken legs. Everyone involved in the TT, from the riders down to the medical teams who have to recover them, are there by choice because they love the event.

Otherwise you might as well ban mountain climbing, sky diving, wing suits, free climbing, base jumping, big wave surfing, and all the other crazy and dangerous stuff that people do and always have done entirely of their own accord - if only for the thrill of knowing its danger and the pushing of human limits. Yet these things also represent some of the most incredible and inspiring human feats.

People die. It´s the saddest and yet also most inevitable part of life. But people die daily from all sorts of mundane things, or things they have no choice in. These people are doing this entirely of their own free will, fully knowing all of the risks. You can´t ban the possibility of death. And if you tried, these people would still get their kicks doing some other legal or illegal dangerous activity.

[leroy]

You also have Bathurst in Australia but that's something very different. Much shorter.

Yeah Bathurst is nothing like the IOM course really.  They say it's a public road but really it's a race course where a few people live.

[Original]

I genuinely have no idea how the riders get on their bikes comfortably with the great big brass balls they have swinging in their undies, fair fucks

[12Kings]

It’s incredible stuff I get it. When you see the helmet footage it’s mind blowing. However there’s not many racing sports or event locations that take as many risks as the TT. When spectators are getting killed also you have to question the safety measures and they for sure need adjusting for this race.

[Linudden]

Yeah Bathurst is nothing like the IOM course really.  They say it's a public road but really it's a race course where a few people live.

Bathurst is amazing but at the same time it's just an extended Turn 2 runoff and techpro barriers away from being technically able to host a Formula 1 race. Especially now that they've opened Pandora's box by licensing Baku and Jeddah. For motorbikes it will be lethal though but you're far less likely to fly head first into the wall there than at the Isle of Man TT course.

They do race motorbikes at the Macau street circuit though which is absolutely mental and has seen quite many fatalities. It's extremely narrow and if you crash you will hit a barrier with the body and bike colliding with it simultaneously at high speed.

[rob1966]

It’s incredible stuff I get it. When you see the helmet footage it’s mind blowing. However there’s not many racing sports or event locations that take as many risks as the TT. When spectators are getting killed also you have to question the safety measures and they for sure need adjusting for this race.

Spectators aren't dying though, there have only ever been 2 fatalities involving spectators and that was in 2007. The father and son who died this year were actually competitors who died when their sidecar crashed. You do get deaths on the open road, but that is usually people riding on the wrong side of the road, they forget we ride/drive on the left not the right.

Bathurst is amazing but at the same time it's just an extended Turn 2 runoff and techpro barriers away from being technically able to host a Formula 1 race. Especially now that they've opened Pandora's box by licensing Baku and Jeddah. For motorbikes it will be lethal though but you're far less likely to fly head first into the wall there than at the Isle of Man TT course.

They do race motorbikes at the Macau street circuit though which is absolutely mental and has seen quite many fatalities. It's extremely narrow and if you crash you will hit a barrier with the body and bike colliding with it simultaneously at high speed.

Macau is seriously scary, the on bike stuff from there scares the shit out of me.

[cormorant]

For those wondering how riders learn the TT...it goes something like this. Could've typed it up myself but this is lifted from an online forum to save a bit of time:

The IOM TT course is the ultimate road racing course you build up experience elsewhere before you attempt it.

IOM TT newcomers are not newcomers to road racing, they will have competed at the smaller events in Ireland and N.Ireland and the mainland, so they are not wet behind the ears road racing virgins. Guy Martin moved to Ireland for a few years, entering the road racing championships, (and winning them), before he attempted the TT course.

They have been talking about this subject, on the radio.
The newcomers are coached by a few people, ex riders, they're taken around in cars and told where they should be on the road, they drive or ride the course as many times as they can. In any spare time they have they watch on board laps over and over again.

To race at the TT, first you must race in the Manx GP, on the TT course. The newcomers to the Manx GP do their first couple of practice laps under controlled conditions, they are lead around at a slower pace, by either a travelling marshal or a more experienced rider.
They are then let loose on the course, however they are told to keep a steady pace and not to expect to get any faster until they've completed fifty odd laps, this could take a few years!

[rob1966]

If you ever wonder how nuts these fellas are, and how addicted to speed some of them are, Guy Martin broke his back at the Ulster GP when he came off at 130mph headbutted the road then careered into a field, bouncing off all kinds. A week later he was back at work as an HGV mechanic and is currently trying to do a standing mile at 300mph on a bike. The fella who holds the record of 297mph died on a subsequent run.

[cormorant]

Completely agree with your general sentiment on the TT Rob. Didn't comment until before as I was avoiding this thread for fear of spoilers. Been watching the highlights about a day after they've been broadcast for most of the past week.

It's a different level of insane.

The footage of Guy Martin's accident is crazy, especially given his subsequent recovery. Love the bloke to bits. Read two of his books. Worms to Catch is great insight into his mindset when detailing his account of racing across the USA on a mountain bike in a mental competition and sleeping rough. Admire his frankness about being on the Asperger's spectrum and how it unconsciously and then consciously shaped his life.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

If you ever wonder how nuts these fellas are, and how addicted to speed some of them are, Guy Martin broke his back at the Ulster GP when he came off at 130mph headbutted the road then careered into a field, bouncing off all kinds. A week later he was back at work as an HGV mechanic and is currently trying to do a standing mile at 300mph on a bike. The fella who holds the record of 297mph died on a subsequent run.

That Guy Martin crash is mental,he's inches away from being snapped in two.

[Mister Flip Flop]

Been a fan of the TT for years and have been over to the island twice for the races. Also own two road bikes an MT09 and a Honda Blackbird. I'm a bike nut but i do feel something has to be done about the number of deaths AND accidents at the TT and road races in general. What that is im not sure but inevitably unless they knock out a plan the powers that be will make the decision for them and pull the whole thing.

R.I.P to all the racers who've lost their lives these last few days.

[MadErik]

Liam Beckett, who was Robert Dunlop’s mechanic, has suggested that sidecar racing should be stopped at the TT races, saying they’re not designed to handle the bumpy road surfaces.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Been a fan of the TT for years and have been over to the island twice for the races. Also own two road bikes an MT09 and a Honda Blackbird. I'm a bike nut but i do feel something has to be done about the number of deaths AND accidents at the TT and road races in general. What that is im not sure but inevitably unless they knock out a plan the powers that be will make the decision for them and pull the whole thing.

R.I.P to all the racers who've lost their lives these last few days.

Well our "powers that be" have zero say in decisions on the IOM

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Liam Beckett, who was Robert Dunlop’s mechanic, has suggested that sidecar racing should be stopped at the TT races, saying they’re not designed to handle the bumpy road surfaces.

Tell that to the Birchall brothers,they design and build their own kit

[rob1966]

Been a fan of the TT for years and have been over to the island twice for the races. Also own two road bikes an MT09 and a Honda Blackbird. I'm a bike nut but i do feel something has to be done about the number of deaths AND accidents at the TT and road races in general. What that is im not sure but inevitably unless they knock out a plan the powers that be will make the decision for them and pull the whole thing.

R.I.P to all the racers who've lost their lives these last few days.

As WhereAngelsPlay says, it's up to the Manx government and seeing as the TT is worth over £37 million to the economy over there, they won't be banning it any time soon.

Nice choice of bikes, I've ridden a Blackbird, and our kid owns an MT09 Tracer. I'm slowly refreshing my 92 Blade and I have a 99 R1.

[Brissyred]

Yeah, with no thought for the medical teams that have to treat them 

The vast majority of medics are volunteers, most have a love of the sport.

[Linudden]

Sidecars in general is something I've never truly gotten. It just seems like a death trap.

I think the Manx government should build a permanent 3-mile circuit which could be a tourist attraction and also bear resemblance to the actual TT layout but with runoffs. Could be a good bedding in for riders to get used to the high speeds. With adequate runoffs they might even entice MotoGP to go there using a chicane or two since the island has such motorcycling pedigree.

There's not really any race track around anymore where it's all about pure speed and only fast corners. Nowadays everything is geared towards making passing possible in car racing and therefore it's very hard to replicate anything even resembling the TT under controlled conditions. At every single F1 circuit the cars go below 100 kph (62 mph) at least once, which says it all. Even Silverstone is extremely slow in two places.

Most of the British circuits have extremely fast motorcycle sections though and I think that helps ensuring that British riders usually are really adept at carrying corner speed, but instead struggle against the road racers from the continent on the slower circuits in mainland Europe. In some ways the TT takes the very fast sections of Silverstone, Donington, Brands Hatch, Oulton and Thruxton to the next level.

The original layout of Oulton Park in Cheshire is one of the hairiest I've ever driven in a video game. Rally Finland-esque crests, banked corners and blind stuff all round. No wonder they get well-prepared for countryside racing practicing in places like that.

[Millie]

The vast majority of medics are volunteers, most have a love of the sport.

I mean't the Hospitals.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

I mean't the Hospitals.

So people doing their jobs ?

[Brissyred]

Having raced there, the shorter Irish circuits and the Southern 100 on the island I can tell you that it's only as dangerous as you're prepared to make it, you could ride around there all day with no danger whatsoever if you chose to, although you do need to have shown an appropriate level of speed at other road circuits to have your entry accepted.
The TT/Manx GP as a racer is pretty unique as unlike short circuits and the shorter road circuits you choose your own pace. You're generally racing alone against the clock.
I've lost friends there but even their families don't want it banned. Up until the 70's the TT was part of the world championship series so riders had to race there even if they didn't want to, nowadays every single rider that rides there chooses to do so.
I have friends here that I think are mad because they choose to surf at dusk and dawn even though the chances of a shark attack at those times is quite high, I've seen their surfboards with bites out of them but they still do it, should surfing be banned at certain hours of the day?
Deaths at the shorter road race circuits are probably on par for miles raced but they don't get the publicity that the TT does.
Only people that don't understand want it banned, and for what?
Banning it wouldn't have any real positive impact on society as a whole but there would be a negative impact on the thousands of people directly and indirectly involved in the event.

[Brissyred]

I think the Manx government should build a permanent 3-mile circuit which could be a tourist attraction and also bear resemblance to the actual TT layout but with runoffs. Could be a good bedding in for riders to get used to the high speeds. With adequate runoffs they might even entice MotoGP to go there using a chicane or two since the island has such motorcycling pedigree.

https://www.motorsportcircuits.co.uk/html/jurby-track-guide.html

The original layout of Oulton Park in Cheshire is one of the hairiest I've ever driven in a video game. Rally Finland-esque crests, banked corners and blind stuff all round. No wonder they get well-prepared for countryside racing practicing in places like that.

Oulton was my favourite short circuit until they ruined it with the chicanes.

[B0151?]

This is my first time really hearing about it. It does seem mad to someone like me but people die going up Everest every year and for sure while sometimes you hear about issues contributing to that, no one really has a problem with the concept and risk.

[Brissyred]

I mean't the Hospitals.

The vast majority of injuries are broken bones, legs, arms, wrists etc, modern PPE is very good. Not every incident results in death or near death. Perhaps we should stop people playing footy as I would bet the sheer amount of injuries from football would dwarf that of motorcycle racing due to the numbers playing. I remember hobbling in to Fazak hospital on a Sunday years ago with a broken foot  from a dirt  bike accident and the place was full of blokes in footy kits with fucked up legs/feet/shoulders.

[smithy]

I live about 50 metres up the road from Ballagarey corner, which sadly claimed the life of rider Mark Purslow this year. Its also the corner where Guy Martin had his big fireball crash a few years back. Very unpleasant hearing the medical helicopter land nearby last week and not take off again immediately.

I'm not really into bikes and I'm undecided on whether the TT is a good thing or not. It does bring a buzz to the place, and attracts a type of thrillseeking tourist that other places/events just can't. Difficult to justify though when my evening walk contains so many reminders of those who have lost their lives.

So people doing their jobs ?

I'm not sure what to make of this comment. My sister is a senior nurse in A&E at the islands only hospital. The TT/MGP/Southern 100 bring some absolutely horrendous injuries likened to those of a war zone. Our front line workers (nurses, traffic police etc) are some amazing human beings.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

I'm not sure what to make of this comment. My sister is a senior nurse in A&E at the islands only hospital. The TT/MGP/Southern 100 bring some absolutely horrendous injuries likened to those of a war zone. Our front line workers (nurses, traffic police etc) are some amazing human beings.

You're taking it wrong Smithy,it was not a dig at our emergency services or our Amazing Hospital workers.

[smithy]

You're taking it wrong Smithy,it was not a dig at our emergency services or our Amazing Hospital workers.

Ah ok, I read it in the wrong context. I did wonder!

Unfortunately the media reporting from this year's event hasn't been great for the image of the event. The organisers tragically reported the wrong sidecar occupant dead, while the other remains critical in hospital. Both sidecar incidents were in the same section of the course, prompting questions about the road condition there.

I've often wondered how the organisers would respond to legal action from a general member of the public caught up in an accident. Ie, someone who was not a participant nor a fan. Hopefully it'll never come to that.

[swoopy]

I live on the Isle of Man and I am very pro TT. It's brilliant to watch. The atmosphere is brilliant. Sadly, the deaths do arrive when they aren't expected as we saw over the past fortnight. The father & son on Friday was absolutely tragic. Incredibly weird feeling to have known I saw them traveling past me only a couple of minutes before they met their demise.
 
Friday before the sidecars we red flagged I was up on a hedge near the Creg-ny-Baa just off the mountain where I watched the Supersport race in the morning with bikes coming down at around 170mph sat literally 1/2m away from them flying past me. This is the risk that I have chosen to take by sitting there knowing it could go wrong. Spectators lined round the course know very well that if it goes wrong by where you are stood then you are in danger. The 'known spots' deemed highest risk are 'prohibited areas' though where spectators cannot go in order to minimise this.

I suppose if you've not been before to watch / take an interest in it you won't have the same level of understanding as those that do watch. The media are portraying things in a very negative light without looking at the positives.

People above saying that the IOM Gov will never call it off due to the financial implications are absolutely right. The impact to all local businesses would be huge with so many going bust. The business brought in over TT can keep them going for the rest of the year.

The riders sign up for a reason and they are professionals. They can't just turn up and sign up without competing in the slower Manx Grand Prix held later in the year first, plus any newcomers are taken round at slower pace to allow them to see the course. The poster above who advised going to watch the on-bike footage from John McGuinness. Do it. The skill they need and have learnt to be able to do the course is phenomenal. It's not a easy feat and the riders know this. It's what drives them on to do it and they wouldn't want it taken away.

[rob1966]

Having raced there, the shorter Irish circuits and the Southern 100 on the island I can tell you that it's only as dangerous as you're prepared to make it, you could ride around there all day with no danger whatsoever if you chose to, although you do need to have shown an appropriate level of speed at other road circuits to have your entry accepted.
The TT/Manx GP as a racer is pretty unique as unlike short circuits and the shorter road circuits you choose your own pace. You're generally racing alone against the clock.
I've lost friends there but even their families don't want it banned. Up until the 70's the TT was part of the world championship series so riders had to race there even if they didn't want to, nowadays every single rider that rides there chooses to do so.
I have friends here that I think are mad because they choose to surf at dusk and dawn even though the chances of a shark attack at those times is quite high, I've seen their surfboards with bites out of them but they still do it, should surfing be banned at certain hours of the day?
Deaths at the shorter road race circuits are probably on par for miles raced but they don't get the publicity that the TT does.
Only people that don't understand want it banned, and for what?
Banning it wouldn't have any real positive impact on society as a whole but there would be a negative impact on the thousands of people directly and indirectly involved in the event.

Great to see input from someone who has raced there, the riders know more than anyone the appeal and the risks. I've ridden the course back in 89, but even then I was nowhere near race speeds, must be great to ride the roads in a race. Did you crack the 100mph lap?

I live on the Isle of Man and I am very pro TT. It's brilliant to watch. The atmosphere is brilliant. Sadly, the deaths do arrive when they aren't expected as we saw over the past fortnight. The father & son on Friday was absolutely tragic. Incredibly weird feeling to have known I saw them traveling past me only a couple of minutes before they met their demise.
 
Friday before the sidecars we red flagged I was up on a hedge near the Creg-ny-Baa just off the mountain where I watched the Supersport race in the morning with bikes coming down at around 170mph sat literally 1/2m away from them flying past me. This is the risk that I have chosen to take by sitting there knowing it could go wrong. Spectators lined round the course know very well that if it goes wrong by where you are stood then you are in danger. The 'known spots' deemed highest risk are 'prohibited areas' though where spectators cannot go in order to minimise this.

I suppose if you've not been before to watch / take an interest in it you won't have the same level of understanding as those that do watch. The media are portraying things in a very negative light without looking at the positives.

People above saying that the IOM Gov will never call it off due to the financial implications are absolutely right. The impact to all local businesses would be huge with so many going bust. The business brought in over TT can keep them going for the rest of the year.

The riders sign up for a reason and they are professionals. They can't just turn up and sign up without competing in the slower Manx Grand Prix held later in the year first, plus any newcomers are taken round at slower pace to allow them to see the course. The poster above who advised going to watch the on-bike footage from John McGuinness. Do it. The skill they need and have learnt to be able to do the course is phenomenal. It's not a easy feat and the riders know this. It's what drives them on to do it and they wouldn't want it taken away.

The media always do this, they love to focus on the negative in the UK and push their own personal agenda.

I've only been the once, we watched at Quarter Bridge and Glen Helen, sat up on the bank. At some point I will get back to the Island for the TT

[JerseyKloppite]

The post I read here asking for an inquest is to how 5 people could have died, well, an inquest is pointless when you see what they do in person.

I know what you mean but that simply isn't true. I entirely appreciate the level of danger they put themselves in, but if there are particular aspects of the course, planning of the event, advice to riders, rules etc that could be tweaked or change to significantly reduce risk then it would potentially be worth doing. It might be that there aren't, and I don't doubt that careful consideration is given to safety of the riders throughout but there must be some merit in considering it.

Unless and until you know the reason behind each death/serious injury then it's impossible to quantify the use of an inquiry, but to dismiss it as pointless from the outset seems presumptuous to me.

As I said originally, I don't think that this should be banned by any stretch, but there can't be any harm in analysing whether there were any particular issues this year.

[Linudden]

To be honest, what impresses me the most is their ability to learn the entire circuit inside out. For me, already the Nordschleife at just above 1/3 in length is more than enough and took me a long time to learn just by driving video games. These guys learn 37.73 miles of a flat-out course on an island where crosswinds, low asphalt temperatures and other external factors also come into play.

I think that on a circuit shorter than this but looking the same, there would be fewer fatalities as participants would be less likely to get caught out by surprising elements.

[rob1966]

To be honest, what impresses me the most is their ability to learn the entire circuit inside out. For me, already the Nordschleife at just above 1/3 in length is more than enough and took me a long time to learn just by driving video games. These guys learn 37.73 miles of a flat-out course on an island where crosswinds, low asphalt temperatures and other external factors also come into play.

I think that on a circuit shorter than this but looking the same, there would be fewer fatalities as participants would be less likely to get caught out by surprising elements.

They already have the Manx GP which as Brissyred has said is ran at a slower pace and the Southern 100, which is a 4.2 mile, but the riders still want to do the full TT course. He also has a point that there are likely comparable deaths on shorter road and race circuits per miles raced, over 120 people have died on UK tracks alone, there are still deaths on the MotoGP tour, there were those two teenagers killed last season in the Talent Cup I think it was, deaths occur in speedway, American road racing, on European tracks.

The media needs to butt out and stop trying to dictate to the riders what they can and cannot do, if the riders didn't want to ride the TT course and wanted changes, they'd say so.

[alonsoisared]

I understand the "it's their choice" thing but you have to draw a line somewhere surely? If a group of people decided gunslinging would be a fun hobby we wouldn't just allow that. I really don't know much about the sport but it seems like it makes too much money for the organisers to change anything, which isn't exactly an encouraging way to deal with it.

[boots]

I'm a motorcyclist. I've just returned from hooning around Almeria on my bike. It's dangerous. People crashed. We accept that. (No, I didnt)

Those souls died doing what they loved to do and not one of them would change it for the world. TT racers are a strange breed, but if they werent doing it there, theyd be elsewhere. Maybe on the roads. They know and accept the risk. Its intrinsic to what they do. A sport they adore and dedicate their lives to.

Look at the amount of alcohol related deaths annually. Maybe ban that. Ban this, ban everything. I dont understand it, so it must be banned.

Riding superbikes at speed, whilst nowhere near the level of TT guys, on tracks where they belong is hugely enjoyable. Esp when you get the flow of a few sections spot on and you smoothly flow from corner to corner. Its a drug, its adrenalin. I love it. We each and everyone of us take all the precautions. No-one wants to die or get hurt. I wear top notch equipment, complete with airbags. My bike is fully prepped. I spend my life prepping and double prepping.

[Red Cactii]

Bathurst is amazing but at the same time it's just an extended Turn 2 runoff and techpro barriers away from being technically able to host a Formula 1 race.

That’d be priceless if they did take it away from Melbourne, all the poshies and socialites would be up in arms

But yeah, it’s a different track now that they took some of the heat out on Conrod Straight 35 years ago otherwise we’d have probably seen even more deaths on that stretch.

[rob1966]

I'm a motorcyclist. I've just returned from hooning around Almeria on my bike. It's dangerous. People crashed. We accept that. (No, I didnt)

Those souls died doing what they loved to do and not one of them would change it for the world. TT racers are a strange breed, but if they werent doing it there, theyd be elsewhere. Maybe on the roads. They know and accept the risk. Its intrinsic to what they do. A sport they adore and dedicate their lives to.

Look at the amount of alcohol related deaths annually. Maybe ban that. Ban this, ban everything. I dont understand it, so it must be banned.

Riding superbikes at speed, whilst nowhere near the level of TT guys, on tracks where they belong is hugely enjoyable. Esp when you get the flow of a few sections spot on and you smoothly flow from corner to corner. Its a drug, its adrenalin. I love it. We each and everyone of us take all the precautions. No-one wants to die or get hurt. I wear top notch equipment, complete with airbags. My bike is fully prepped. I spend my life prepping and double prepping.

I was getting loads of shit off the missus this weekend about riding my bike on the road, I kept telling her I'll take it easy these days. She'll never understand why I do it.

I spent a part of Saturday ragging around Elvington in a Lamborghini and a Ferrari, the LP570 was an absolute blast, but still not the same kick you get from the bikes.

[boots]

It annoys me greatly the ban brigade. Who want to ban things they do not understand. Using Gunslinging as a example just highlights how little they understand. Theres about 100 deaths per yr from cycling, lets ban it. 9 people died having a bath, ban it!!

Rob, they do not understand it. Fortunatly my wife does. Ive been two wheeled since i was 15. Thats 41yrs now. If I die on my motorcycle, then I died doing what I loved. I'm fully insured, inc for track day. Inc all medical stuff i may need. Repatriation insurance tec. I'm prepared as are all track riders and racers.

Ragging a car doesnt even come close to ragging a >200bhp and 190kg wet superbike.

Edit: I note 3 people died of starvation. Starvation! But fuck that, lets ban bikes. Poor people dying of starvation in a 1st world country is their own fault for being poor. Fucking disgrace. Aaargh....

[Nobby Reserve]

I'd ban motorcycles. Not because they're a danger to themselves, but the majority of riders in my experience (and I drive around 18k miles pa around the country) ride like idiots.

[boots]

And youre perfect Nobby arent you? Drive 18k and this makes you an expert. Maybe jump into the brexit debate, you'd fit in.