Author Topic: LFC stadium Manager, A Kop type end & a stadium most fans will be happy with.  (Read 7314 times)

Offline Joe Rogans Chin

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Work on Liverpool’s new stadium could get underway in the New Year.

Its reported city politicians will give the go ahead to lease out part of Stanley Park – that means builders can start after Christmas.
The ground should then be ready for the start of the 2009 season.
But the club will have to confirm in the next few weeks that they’ve got enough cash to fund their part of the project.
 Current stadium manager Ged Poynton says they’ve worked hard on the designs to make sure fans approve – and they include keeping the Kop.
“One of the main points the board of directors have decided on, and I think it’s great on Liverpool’s behalf, is their going to retain a ‘Kop Three’ if we can call it that," he told Radio City.
“It won’t be a two tier stand; it will be a one lift stand for about 14,000 to 15,000 seats.
“It’ll look similar to the old Kop so we’re going to retain a Kop type of end to the new stadium which I think most fans will be happy with,” he added.
It’s thought the club will have to put together a financial package worth £180 million.
Planning permission for the stadium has already been granted.

http://www.radiocity.co.uk/article.asp?id=267991

Happy days I thought, but to quell my sense of wanting to know more I decided to dig a little bit deeper.

So you now where I’m coming from, I was one of the few fans who was unhappy with the design that was given planning permission in 2003. The design gave us the fans, a goal end that was just over 13,000 in capacity & had a concrete concourse half way up the stand that effectively split the stand in two, although I do accept that it’s a single lift stand & I might be a bit pedantic. That said I do think it will affect the atmosphere. To compound matters the opposite goal end is exactly the same.

I’ll cut a long story short.
I’ll tell you what I know or what the council told me.
I’ll tell you how Ged Poynton has continually ignored my calls and emails for the past two months & let everyone make their own minds up.

Since September I have contacted the council on numerous occasions, the plans that were re aproved where not available for public viewing as they where with the council’s legal team. However every person that I spoke to in the planning team told me the same thing – No changes to the design of the stadium or alteration’s to any of the stands had been logged on their system or been recorded in a changed schematic etc.
Not satisfied I asked to speak with the planning officer who had dealt with the planning application from Day 1 – Fergal Mcevoy.
Fergal was a nice bloke & very accommodating – He stated that the only change to the design was to the height of the West stand roof. Basically to make the stadium less imposing on the surrounding park land, its height has been reduced slightly.
All other changes in the planning application where to do with policy & agreements with private & public bodies involved with the funding & the build.
The synic that I am has made me think that maybe the roof height of one of the goal ends has been reduced to make the other goal end (THE KOP) look bigger, without changing the design or altering the capacity?

With this info to hand I emailed Ged Poynton for his comments, as obviously this is at odds with his comments at the top of this page. I’m sure the stadium manager of LFC is a very busy man, but lots of my emails & phone calls to his PA have been ignored.
His PA is a lovely women & I’m sure he always got the message.
So the question is why would he not respond if what he said at the top of the page was true?

I’ll let you make you own minds up, but I’m sure that the design that was re approved in April 2006 is identical to the one approved in 2003, bar the Height of the west Stand.

« Last Edit: November 7, 2006, 06:37:34 pm by DosyMickKeane »

Offline LFC Lad

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If the Kop is going to be a true single tiered stand than the new stadium idea sounds great.  Still, in my view, the capicity is the only real bad thing about it.  They could have done a few things to make it a larger ground.  I remember Parry saying that the capicity can't be increased at a later date because of the design and location.  That's the only design flaw.
« Last Edit: November 7, 2006, 03:04:33 pm by LFC Lad »
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Offline Cally77 v2.0

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Fucks sake. I thought this was a genuine update.
Fuck off back to Koptalk

Offline Joe Rogans Chin

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Fucks sake. I thought this was a genuine update.

Well, I can't think of any reason for me to make this up.
If you want to wait to read in the Echo that the design of the new stadium hasn't changed at all, when the club's feeding info to the fans via the media to the contrary that's upto you.

Offline Cally77 v2.0

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The club are donig my head in to be honest. I know they pride themselves on secrecy, but this is getting beyond the joke.
Fuck off back to Koptalk

Offline fudge

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The club are donig my head in to be honest. I know they pride themselves on secrecy, but this is getting beyond the joke.

 i think they've secretly been building it for months and not told anyone
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Offline Ned Kelly

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Fucks sake. I thought this was a genuine update.

DMK has put a lot of effort in trying to get more information on the supposed revision of the plans and you come out with shite response like this.

Why don't you go and support Man City , it would be very apt for you to sit in their 'Bell End".
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Offline JoeH

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i think they've secretly been building it for months and not told anyone

And I thought it was another B&Q!!

Offline buckshee

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i think they've secretly been building it for months and not told anyone

 ;D  ;D  ;D
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Offline lloydiethe1st

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If this is definitely the case then that's a complete load of shite. The club have been claiming for ages that they're going to try and have a single tiered stand but if this is true they really couldn't care less.

Good work DMK.
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Offline Joe Rogans Chin

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If this is definitely the case then that's a complete load of shite. The club have been claiming for ages that they're going to try and have a single tiered stand but if this is true they really couldn't care less.

Good work DMK.

It all depends on your point of view, The current design is a single lift stand - but the issue is and always has been the concourse that spits the stand in Two.
Along with the fact that both goal ends are Identical.

To be fair, there is so much apathy towards the new ground, the club know they can & have got away with it.

Offline ratcatcher

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Really dont see what the fuss is about whether there's a walkway, call it what you will in the new kop end. The 'old kop' had a 2 -3 metre wide walkway about half way up and no one called that a 2 tier stand.

to be honest I hope the club addresses real issues such as not putting visiting fans behind one goal and make them sit in a section in a corner or along side the pitch.
These are my own opinions. They are not meant or intended as a criticism of anyone else's opinion just because they are different but if you can't see past that, then tough shit!

Offline Joe Rogans Chin

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Really dont see what the fuss is about whether there's a walkway, call it what you will in the new kop end. The 'old kop' had a 2 -3 metre wide walkway about half way up and no one called that a 2 tier stand.

to be honest I hope the club addresses real issues such as not putting visiting fans behind one goal and make them sit in a section in a corner or along side the pitch.

 ???
But everyone was standing them so it didn't make a blind bit of difference?
If you don't think it's an issue then fair enough, but I think the club should be trying to ensure that the atmosphere in the new ground is as good as possible.

IMO having a goal end for the home supporters that's split in two & is identical to the opposite end won't help matters. I'd have like to have seen a stand like the current KOP only bigger (16k) at one end for us & a stand like the current design at the other end, only smaller in capacity (10K) to allow for the over all total capacity of 60k.

Offline lloydiethe1st

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It all depends on your point of view, The current design is a single lift stand - but the issue is and always has been the concourse that spits the stand in Two.
Along with the fact that both goal ends are Identical.

To be fair, there is so much apathy towards the new ground, the club know they can & have got away with it.

Good point there mate. I think the main reason there is so much apathy is that this has been going on for years now and many people probably believe it won't happen and there is still a lot of evidence to suggest that it might not.

???
But everyone was standing them so it didn't make a blind bit of difference?
If you don't think it's an issue then fair enough, but I think the club should be trying to ensure that the atmosphere in the new ground is as good as possible.

IMO having a goal end for the home supporters that's split in two & is identical to the opposite end won't help matters. I'd have like to have seen a stand like the current KOP only bigger (16k) at one end for us & a stand like the current design at the other end, only smaller in capacity (10K) to allow for the over all total capacity of 60k.


Spot on there mate. I'm sure there was plenty of people who were gutted when the old kop got knocked down but the current Kop is the only Kop I know and it will always a be a special place for me, especially because of Olympiakos, Juve, Chelsea etc. The magic of the Kop could still be translated into the new stadium but a two tiered type stand that is exactly the same as one at the opposite end of the stadium will inhibit this.
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Offline mikeb58

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It's been said again and again, but The new Kop has to differ from the opposite goal stand, hopefully that means it being bigger / single tier.

If not, then it won't be a special stand to most kopites. The single tier debate is important, the old narrow walk way on the standing Kop was not even noticeable once the Kop filled up.

The wide concorse proposed for the new Kop, splits the stand into two ( though in principal not effictively making it a two tiered stand ) I hope the club have rectified this as promised.

If indeed they could not get round the problem due to legislation, then at least they should have made the Kop much larger than the opposing stand, to compensate the fact the single tier issue couldn't be resolved.

To design two idenical goal stands in the first place was incredibly niave, and as I've stated before the Kop in my opinion is probably inferior to the opposite stand. Where as the Kop has a largely transparent roof ( losing that darkened, enclosed effect ) the stand opposite only has a transparent edging to the roof.
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Offline Joe Rogans Chin

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 I hope the club have rectified this as promised.


Everything Iv'e learned over the past two months points the the fact that the club haven't.
That said, I'd love to be proved wrong. The disapointing thing by Ged Poynton refusing to comment is that at least the fans would know once and for all.
Perhaps the design has changed or will be changed and the council are mistaken & Ged Poynton can't be arsed talking to some pleb on the tinternet?
The one thing I dread happening is the stadium being built & then there being mass up roar about the design. Even worse, Imagine if RTK is a massive massive succes & the KOP that we inherit in the new ground, is well just another goal end & a bit shit? 

Offline Paul

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As long as its cheap, Parry doesnt care what it looks like

Offline ratcatcher

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???
But everyone was standing them so it didn't make a blind bit of difference?
If you don't think it's an issue then fair enough, but I think the club should be trying to ensure that the atmosphere in the new ground is as good as possible.

IMO having a goal end for the home supporters that's split in two & is identical to the opposite end won't help matters. I'd have like to have seen a stand like the current KOP only bigger (16k) at one end for us & a stand like the current design at the other end, only smaller in capacity (10K) to allow for the over all total capacity of 60k.

Go with the flow mate. There's not a thing we can do to significantly change the plans. The Kop is dead, RIP. I did my time on the Kop and in its last years, it wasn't a patch on its former self.

We are in a new era and, I dont think adding another 5, 6, 7 8 or 10k to one end while reducing the other, is going to make one jot of difference to the atmosphere.

Someone made a comment about the plexy glass roof in the 'kop' end compared to just the edging in the other stand. Surely this is just to ensure sufficient light gets to the pitch for the grass to grow and is nothing to do with an impression of size?
These are my own opinions. They are not meant or intended as a criticism of anyone else's opinion just because they are different but if you can't see past that, then tough shit!

Offline Joe Rogans Chin

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The Kop is dead, RIP.

I consider myself luck enough to have caught the last 5 years of the KOP as a standing terrace.

But I don't think there is a Red out there that would disagree that the KOP played it's part in the European cup win, Olympiacos, Juve and most noteably Chelsea spring to mind. So I think it's premature to say the KOPS dead & any advantage the KOP gives LFC when we play at home should be preserved & transfeered to the new Stadium IMO.

Offline mikeb58

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Liverpool Spoin Kop is world famous, obviously things can never be as good as the old standing terrace. I was lucky enough to be a regular there from the late 60's, and although the best days of any sort of Kop are behind us, we still need one.

What most fans object to, is that if both goal stands are the same, then the Kop loses it's identity. Therefore it should differ from the opposite stand in size / design.

It might not make the world of difference to the atmosphere, but the fact remains the Kop as a structual design has to be something special.

My earlier comment regarding the mainly transparent roof, I realise nothing can be done about that, it's all to do with allowing natural light getting to the pitch etc.

What it does in the process though is make the Kop too ' airy and open ' looking. As I said, nothing can be done about that, but something can be done about the size and design, so that's what I'm hoping for.

If we simply 'go with the flow' and accept what the club give us, and they turn around and say well nobody seemed to mind or object at our plans, then we only have ourselves to blame if the stadium is shite.

At least by having a go at getting the club to listen to the fans, it means we've tried. It surely can't do any harm, and I applaud everyone that's took the time and effort in doing so.
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Offline Cally77 v2.0

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The biggest problem the club has is pleasing the most sentimental, hard to please fans in world football. Half of them want a luxury, modern, cutting edge stadium, the rest want it to look exactly like Anfield, complete with Kop replica.

If we are really going to move I just don't see any point in having a Kop lookalike. New era, new ground, new history.
Fuck off back to Koptalk

Offline Joe Rogans Chin

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The biggest problem the club has is pleasing the most sentimental, hard to please fans in world football. Half of them want a luxury, modern, cutting edge stadium, the rest want it to look exactly like Anfield, complete with Kop replica.

If we are really going to move I just don't see any point in having a Kop lookalike. New era, new ground, new history.


GED POYNTON -

One of the main points the board of directors have decided on, and I think it’s great on Liverpool’s behalf, is their going to retain a ‘Kop Three’ if we can call it that," he told Radio City.
“It won’t be a two tier stand; it will be a one lift stand for about 14,000 to 15,000 seats.
“It’ll look similar to the old Kop so we’re going to retain a Kop type of end to the new stadium which I think most fans will be happy with,” he added.


The Liverpool board seem to want it or we are being lied to?

Besides I'd like to think there's an Architect out there that can design a luxury, modern, cutting edge stadium with A KOP type end to be proud off.

Oh & by the by, the new stadium isn't cutting edge.

Offline shanklyboy

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The old Spion Kop was the focal point for players and fans alike.Due to its capacity it was possible to house virtually all of the fans who wanted to sing hence the atmosphere in the ground. For those too young to ever experienced it just imagine the current Kop housing twice the number of fans.
Anyone who attended the Arsenal game today could see how souless their ground is. Highbury only got atmosphere towards the very end. This in my opinion was due to their Champions League run and seeing what we had generated at Anfield. Their new ground lacks character which is only added to by the lack of character of their fans and the omission of a real 'end'. There is no focal point!
Anyone who thinks it's not vital for Liverpool to have a Kop, an end that houses the most vocal of our fans, doesn't value the contribution made by our supporters over many many years.
In my dreams I'd love to see a huge single bank which houses 18,000/20,000 fans. If this meant curving the sides around to meet the other stands then it wouldn't be a problem. Get as many supporters who want to support behind the goal. Stick the away fans in a box somewhere in a dark corner and the Upper Centenary corporates types in a hole in the ground  ( with phone charger facilities of course) somewhere in Stanley Park where they can watch the game on the telly.
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Offline mikeb58

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Some great points made above, good post.
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Offline Ste G

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Thanks for the update Dosy.

Interesting this. Could be that internal changes to the stand don't actually need to go through the formal planning process.

My view from my own research and correspondance with the club is that all that would happen would be for the walkway strip to be removed and for the wheelchair spaces to be put somewhere else and replaced with seats - which would allow for the Kop to have around 14000 seats. Parry said to me they were looking into it and whilst not guaranteeing it'd change, the indications were that it'd be different to how it's been illustrated.

Can't understand what Poynton is getting at here though. The shape of the stand isn't going to change and he's hinting at quite big changes.

I put a lot of effort into researching all this but the longer it all drags on the more I feel as though I just can't be arsed. I just wish we would hear something final i.e "Building starts for definite on 1 February 2007" or "It's off".

If it does end up being split in two and identical to the other end than it'll be a massive fuck up. Look at the Emirates or the City of Manc. Where is new North Bank or the Kippax? They're gone and replaced with boring symmetrical stands.

Offline GibletII

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I'm not a great fan of the design aesthetically, but I'm not it's biggest critic either.

Removing the gangway and wheelchair sections from the centre of the Kop is a no brainer. The other issue I'd look at is the corners where the stands meet the running track. This could indicate that the stands are closer to the pitch than we've seen at Man City and Arsenal so they've had to remove the front rows in the corner which I'd accept as the comprimise.

Offline Joe Rogans Chin

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Interesting this. Could be that internal changes to the stand don't actually need to go through the formal planning process.

My view from my own research and correspondance with the club is that all that would happen would be for the walkway strip to be removed and for the wheelchair spaces to be put somewhere else and replaced with seats - which would allow for the Kop to have around 14000 seats. Parry said to me they were looking into it and whilst not guaranteeing it'd change, the indications were that it'd be different to how it's been illustrated.


That's the problem i think, there is still doubt in my mind, because Poynton hasn't responded to me.

Rushian has also pointed out that it's only a minor change & that liverpool city council are unaware of this because to them it's not a major concern.

It's one of the few situation's in life where I hope the assurances Parry gave you are correct & that on this one, I got it wrong.
Time will tell I suppose.

Offline Kop4

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... .....the current Kop is the only Kop I know and it will always a be a special place for me, especially because of Olympiakos, Juve, Chelsea etc. The magic of the Kop could still be translated into the new stadium but a two tiered type stand that is exactly the same as one at the opposite end of the stadium will inhibit this.

Before those games you mention, I was not fussed about a 'two tier' stand, but the Kop as it is played such a part in those games, and two tier stands just can't re-create that atmosphere for me.  As a one-off venue it can be overcome, but for a home ground, the Kop would be split into two disjointed factions and they would eventually drift apart.

It is embarrassing now when two or more songs are being sung on the kop at the same time now, as in the PSV game.

My earlier comment regarding the mainly transparent roof, I realise nothing can be done about that, it's all to do with allowing natural light getting to the pitch etc.

What it does in the process though is make the Kop too ' airy and open ' looking.

Agree with that. the old kop had a low roof which added to it's menacing quality and no doubt threw sound outwards rather than 'upwards'.

.
Anyone who attended the Arsenal game today could see how souless their ground is. ...... There is no focal point!

True, and Souness made just that point recently on Sky.
A travesty of a sham of a mockery.

Offline Ned Kelly

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Just think of the  noise we have created at Cardiff with the smaller 'single tiered ' end.
It is a must for the new ground.
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Offline ttnbd

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Just think of the  noise we have created at Cardiff with the smaller 'single tiered ' end.


So none of the fans in the other parts of the stadium created any noise?  Come on, the main reason such a good atmosphere has been created at cardiff is because of the acoustics of the stadium and the occasions.
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Offline Ned Kelly

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So none of the fans in the other parts of the stadium created any noise?  Come on, the main reason such a good atmosphere has been created at cardiff is because of the acoustics of the stadium and the occasions.

The cheapest tickets for those matches (behind the goal) where available to Kop ticket holders who are traditionally the most vocal of the clubs support , therefore it is not unreasonable to say that the majority of the noise came from this section. I did not say anything about lack of noise from other sections.
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Offline GibletII

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Not true Ned, the cheap seats were at the front and very rear. A large portion of the stand has expensive ticket prices. The upper corners and rear of the upper tier are the cheaper seats.

I agree with the notion that a distinctive 'end' is the key rather than the biggest stand.

Offline Ned Kelly

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Not true Ned, the cheap seats were at the front and very rear. A large portion of the stand has expensive ticket prices. The upper corners and rear of the upper tier are the cheaper seats.

I agree with the notion that a distinctive 'end' is the key rather than the biggest stand.

Not as expensive as the rest of the ground , especially compared to the end behind the other goal.

http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/nimages/cardiff.jpg
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Offline GibletII

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N1 - N4 are towards the upper prices.

I'd like to see a pricing model similar to what we experienced at Bordeaux, cheap for the fans behind the goal, graded to expensive on the halfway line - something like £22 to £50/70. It won't happen with the restrictive capacity we've set ourselves though - 60k was chosen as it allows the club to control the market and optimise ticket pricing all around the stadium.

Good for reducing the initial financial risk to the club, bad for the fans who stump up hard earned cash.

Offline Ste G

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N1 - N4 are towards the upper prices.

I'd like to see a pricing model similar to what we experienced at Bordeaux, cheap for the fans behind the goal, graded to expensive on the halfway line - something like £22 to £50/70. It won't happen with the restrictive capacity we've set ourselves though - 60k was chosen as it allows the club to control the market and optimise ticket pricing all around the stadium.

Why? It's not fair for some fans to pay an extra £30+ for a ticket. The Kop should be a few quid cheaper but not at the expense of other ordinary fans. I can't see us even using the extra corporate facilities to subsidise cheaper Kop tickets as we'll be needing to suck out every penny.

Offline GibletII

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"it's not fair"

NURSE!!

Is it "fair" that someone on row 25, halfway line pays the same as someone sat 2 yards from the corners flag?

Knowing how Liverpool FC operate the 'ordinary fans' will end up subsidising the corporates.

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So you now where I’m coming from, I was one of the few fans who was unhappy with the design that was given planning permission in 2003. The design gave us the fans, a goal end that was just over 13,000 in capacity & had a concrete concourse half way up the stand that effectively split the stand in two, although I do accept that it’s a single lift stand & I might be a bit pedantic. That said I do think it will affect the atmosphere. To compound matters the opposite goal end is exactly the same.

For me what would really make this stadium is an impressive new Kop. If it had this I don't think I would care so muchabout the design (or any similarity with the Reebok).

I'd prefer if they could add more seats onto the top without altering the boundary, like with the existing Kop. The old Kop was higher than the other stands anyway. Agree about the concourse as well.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2006, 03:45:17 pm by Robbiegoal »

Offline GibletII

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The old Kop was higher than the other stands anyway.

In what way?

The old roof line drew the whole structure down .

Offline todda

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The new Stadium MUST have a KOP Three if thats what its being called now, different from the other end and hopefully similar to the one we have now only bigger.
I've been lucky enough to have stood and sat on both the Kop now and The Spion Kop and its what sets us apart from other clubs.
So say no to two identical ends and no to ANY sort of corporate facility in KOP Three.
"Friend 1st, Boss 2nd,......... Enteratiner 3rd!,  If I was asked to name 3 intellegent people, I wouldn't say Einstein, Newton..... erm you know, I'd Say Cleese, Milligan, Everett................ Sessions!" David Brent.