Topic: Where Did It All Go Wrong.

[shy_talk]

It is a question that has bugged me for years. Really fucking has.

Where did society, both here and abroad go so fucking wrong?

Was it really the financial crisis of 2008 which initiated both Brexit and the rise of Trump and other populists - is it actually the case that the moment the first plane went to the North Tower that fateful day - and we have been dealing with the shitstorm ever since - or was it something else?

We've got some really bright, thoughtful and intelligent people on this forum - and I would be intrigued what your thoughts are?

Bit of a 50/50 decision on this, but in fact both aspects boil down to the same thing.

"there is no such thing as society" vs "let the market decide"

I'm alright Jack!

[Nobby Reserve]

A symptom:

Burglars broke into Bronson Battersby’s Skegness home after his and father Kenneth's bodies were found

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/burglars-broke-bronson-battersby-skegness-205737320.html?guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cudGhld2VhdGhlcm91dGxvb2suY29tLw&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAD5lVpHLhO6jbNzXNrnFZY2YbT7EEbjFOAfXR4ekHEBH8yWlQvtXJHyrhiw5ksJX8IkZLfl4RAVYT02ihuT8MRmdBLalpFJ9J3hKE9j81bkGiFDwm15uvkyM_Mf8QIxkebEnIi5pHJNYmUMe0FHJLvqGYCW56JQlfpYWjOVMFwjM

[Yorkykopite]

A symptom:

Burglars broke into Bronson Battersby’s Skegness home after his and father Kenneth's bodies were found

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/burglars-broke-bronson-battersby-skegness-205737320.html?guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cudGhld2VhdGhlcm91dGxvb2suY29tLw&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAD5lVpHLhO6jbNzXNrnFZY2YbT7EEbjFOAfXR4ekHEBH8yWlQvtXJHyrhiw5ksJX8IkZLfl4RAVYT02ihuT8MRmdBLalpFJ9J3hKE9j81bkGiFDwm15uvkyM_Mf8QIxkebEnIi5pHJNYmUMe0FHJLvqGYCW56JQlfpYWjOVMFwjM

A symptom of what though? Evil, perhaps. Decline? Probably not. Trawl through the police archives of Victorian London or Liverpool and you'd see far worse. Heartlessness beyond belief sometimes.

Isn't it all a bit Daily Mail to pick on something so unusual and call it a 'symptom' - of "modern Britain", of "socialism", of "kids today", of the "permanent damage done by the Sex Pistols"?

[Nobby Reserve]

A symptom of what though? Evil, perhaps. Decline? Probably not. Trawl through the police archives of Victorian London or Liverpool and you'd see far worse. Heartlessness beyond belief sometimes.

Isn't it all a bit Daily Mail to pick on something so unusual and call it a 'symptom' - of "modern Britain", of "socialism", of "kids today", of the "permanent damage done by the Sex Pistols"?

A symptom of how fucked-up modern society is.

I wasn't comparing to different eras, although in contrast to Victorian London/Liverpool, the scumbag(s) doing this sort of shit likely won't be doing it to survive or for a living, but to feed an addiction

[Yorkykopite]

I feel like getting all Albert Camus on you. "There's more to admire in men than despise."

That was true when he wrote it (in the immediate shadow of the Holocaust). It's true now.

I don't think that Skegness story faithfully reflects modern society. I say again that this sounds like a scaremongering Daily Mail way of looking at it. "It's dangerous out there. Everyone's fucked up and sick in the head. Protect you and your family. Society's not worth saving." 

[reddebs]

What a bleeding mess we've made where instead of everybody living side by side and enjoying some level of freedoms and standard of living, we're witnessing more wars, more hatreds and more discriminations.

The upcoming elections here and in America seem such an utterly useless blip but also a potentially gigantic boot up the arse.

The most disheartening part is, how inadequate I feel to improve or change any of it.

[Nobby Reserve]

What a bleeding mess we've made where instead of everybody living side by side and enjoying some level of freedoms and standard of living, we're witnessing more wars, more hatreds and more discriminations.

The upcoming elections here and in America seem such an utterly useless blip but also a potentially gigantic boot up the arse.

The most disheartening part is, how inadequate I feel to improve or change any of it.

A lot of the tribalism and hate is being driven and funded by Billionaires

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/may/23/americas-billionaire-class-is-funding-anti-democratic-forces
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/5050/the-american-dark-money-behind-europes-far-right/

Why would they do this?

During the 90's and 00's there was a move in various parts of the world for countries to harmonise within trading blocs. Unified regulation on issues like environmental protections, workers' rights, consumer standards, etc In the EU and elsewhere, there was talk of minimum corporation tax rates, closer political alignment/cooperation, and legislation seeking to cut down on tax dodging and share information between nations.

These billionaire shitstains despise that. They want fractured international relationships and zero cooperation, so they can pick off country by country to weaken regulation, to weaken environmental protections, to weaken workers' rights, to block efforts to tackle tax dodging by the super-rich and tax corporations more.

So they fund far-right movements and parties that promote nationalism and oppression and hate, trying to drag the Overton Window to the right (or at least try to drag the mainstream right-of-centre parties to the right to counter the threat from the far-right movements). They destabilise alliances. They target trading/political blocs.

Because, when it comes to accumulating money, too much is never enough.

[reddebs]

A lot of the tribalism and hate is being driven and funded by Billionaires

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/may/23/americas-billionaire-class-is-funding-anti-democratic-forces
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/5050/the-american-dark-money-behind-europes-far-right/

Why would they do this?

During the 90's and 00's there was a move in various parts of the world for countries to harmonise within trading blocs. Unified regulation on issues like environmental protections, workers' rights, consumer standards, etc In the EU and elsewhere, there was talk of minimum corporation tax rates, closer political alignment/cooperation, and legislation seeking to cut down on tax dodging and share information between nations.

These billionaire shitstains despise that. They want fractured international relationships and zero cooperation, so they can pick off country by country to weaken regulation, to weaken environmental protections, to weaken workers' rights, to block efforts to tackle tax dodging by the super-rich and tax corporations more.

So they fund far-right movements and parties that promote nationalism and oppression and hate, trying to drag the Overton Window to the right (or at least try to drag the mainstream right-of-centre parties to the right to counter the threat from the far-right movements). They destabilise alliances. They target trading/political blocs.

Because, when it comes to accumulating money, too much is never enough.

But they became billionaires under those regulations and some of those same billionaires have been telling world governments that they want and should be contributing more to alleviate the inequality.

Not all obviously but nevertheless it seems governments are the ones creating issues rather than just pointing the finger at the very wealthy.

Crazy people being elected or grabbing power with seemingly the sole aim of impoverishing their own people and antagonising their neighbours.

[Nobby Reserve]

But they became billionaires under those regulations and some of those same billionaires have been telling world governments that they want and should be contributing more to alleviate the inequality.

Not all obviously but nevertheless it seems governments are the ones creating issues rather than just pointing the finger at the very wealthy.

Crazy people being elected or grabbing power with seemingly the sole aim of impoverishing their own people and antagonising their neighbours.

Mutual patronage - the malevolent billionaires fund the far-right/nationalist politicians* to help them win power; the politicians then follow a deregulation agenda and withdraw from international organisations as per the desires of the malevolent billionaires.

Mutual patronage has been around for millennia. It used to be monarchs/tribal leaders and religious/holy men. I guess this is a modern twist on it.


* or, as with the orange anus and Bozo, politicians who embrace and harness right-wing populism to assist with their ego-driven political ambitions

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

It is a question that has bugged me for years. Really fucking has.

Where did society, both here and abroad go so fucking wrong?

Was it ever right.

Maybe the reason we think it's gone "so fucking wrong" is because the world is so much more connected and we get a load more news than ever before.

[Gnurglan]

It is a question that has bugged me for years. Really fucking has.

Where did society, both here and abroad go so fucking wrong?

Was it really the financial crisis of 2008 which initiated both Brexit and the rise of Trump and other populists - is it actually the case that the moment the first plane went to the North Tower that fateful day - and we have been dealing with the shitstorm ever since - or was it something else?

We've got some really bright, thoughtful and intelligent people on this forum - and I would be intrigued what your thoughts are?

When I focus on my home country over the last thirty years, my conclusion is somewhere our leaders stopped thinking of the common good. They began thinking of themselves to a greater extent than before. How do we see it? We have lost our military capacity, our police force is too small, gang related shootings are at an all time high, our healthcare system is a mess, we stopped investing in our energy production, our railroad system is old, our water supply systems are old etc. This happens gradually and it's hard to notice year by year. But over a longer period you can spot it.
The question people begin to ask is - where did all the tax money go? Interestingly, in this period the number of super rich has grown rapidly. Former Prime Ministers and leading politicians have become very wealthy.

At some point people will say enough. They will take their pitchforks and torches and go burn down the castle. I think that's close to where we are now.

[RAWK Meltdown #1]

I've always been quite invested in the notion that I'm a spiritual being whose been sent to have a "physical" experience on planet "whack-job" (also known to its inhabitants as planet Earth)

Because I've always framed my life this way, I've never really had high expectations when it comes to what takes place on this planet. What I mean by this is that.... its "collective" growth and maturation rate is incredibly slow and is heavily obstructed by the sheer amount of dysfunction that it has to either overcome or over-power (as a single, global entity) ....in order to make positive forward strides.

So naturally, anybody who sees themselves as a "physical" being whose sense of peace is bound up with that which they witness on planet "whack job" is going to become greatly disturbed, despondent and ill-at-ease with what they observe.

Solitary "soul-growth" however, can occur much more rapidly and meaningfully. It doesn't mean that you totally disengage with Earth's collective issues, concerns and dilemmas....it just means that you do what YOU can do to help, but at the same time....you're not in the slightest bit deceived about what kind of place this planet really is.

It's here to be "experienced" predominantly.

What it's not here for, is to be either "fixed" or "repaired" by any ONE person...(or soul)

Sure, we can lend our support to movements, pressure groups or political ideologies which we believe will help with the slow "nudge" the planet needs to experience growth, but we also have to try and manage our own expectations with this.

We're here to experience our own growth (primarily).....rather than to waste our entire lives trying to achieve planet "repair."

The planet's collective "spirit" was already f*cked when we got here, and was far from utopian, and it'll be like this looong after we've departed.

This is not a nihilistic philosophy by any means.

To worry about this planet, you have to have a caring nature, and that's not a bad thing.

What IS bad, is worrying about it "too much" or in total disproportion to your own power to change things on the scale that's so obviously required.

The Serenity Prayer:

Grant to us the serenity of mind to accept that which cannot be changed,
Courage to change that which can be changed,
And wisdom to know the one from the other...

 

 

 

[Nobby Reserve]

Can I ask where you get your mushrooms from?

[Fortneef]

And we even saw it coming

https://www.theonion.com/bush-our-long-national-nightmare-of-peace-and-prosperi-1819565882

[hide5seek]

It is a question that has bugged me for years. Really fucking has.

Where did society, both here and abroad go so fucking wrong?

Was it really the financial crisis of 2008 which initiated both Brexit and the rise of Trump and other populists - is it actually the case that the moment the first plane went to the North Tower that fateful day - and we have been dealing with the shitstorm ever since - or was it something else?

We've got some really bright, thoughtful and intelligent people on this forum - and I would be intrigued what your thoughts are?

Billionaires, it went wrong with them. They rule the roost and  few  of them are  decent humans.

[west_london_red]

A thought on this subject crossed my mind although it’s quite grim I would be interested to hear what people think

So we haven’t had a war for a long time… a proper war. The reason I say this is if you look at British history, a lot of societal changes came after a war. The Boer war was a humiliating victory for the British, the British won the war but it was close, and one of the reasons was the state and health of the population, that while Britain was the most prosperous country on the planet its population was so poor and unhealthy that its army struggled against a few Dutch farmers, and you then had beginning of the welfare state. After WW1 we had the first Labour government, and after WW2 you had the Attlee government and all that they achieved to improve people’s lives.

So I guess the question is how do we get a ‘reset’ without the war? Covid for a time appeared like it might have been a chance but with a Tory government that’s always unlikely.