Topic: LFC, the Premier League and the VAR vote

[Fromola]

The Premier League clubs will vote in June whether to get rid of VAR.

The clubs will vote the motion down. Our own club have been pretty robust about voting to keep it, at least in briefings.

However, where is the fan consultation? Polls run by other clubs supporters groups seem unanimous in their desire to be rid of VAR and what it takes away from the sport..as Klopp said VAR if used properly can be more workable - albeit with issues - but that's not the case in the PL ergo Klopp would vote to scrap it.

Are our own supporter groups at least going to be polling members and feeding back to the club. VAR won't be scrapped but the club needs to be aware of fan sentiment. Man United for example https://x.com/henrywinter/status/1796451003514200089

It's not just a PL issue either. The refs are dire here we know, but there's a myriad of issues in other leagues as well. Fan protests saw Sweden rid of it recently.

[telekon]

As a note, Sweden never had VAR nationally. A month ago the Swedish FA decided not to motion implementing it.

[macca007]

Issue is not VAR it's the useless c*nts reffing. Reform of the pgmol, an independent VAR hub and tighter rules would go a lot longer a way to improving things.

I rarely have a problem when we play in europe with reffing and the standards and that goes for watching most neutral matches.

Problem with a lot of other clubs is the majority don't play in europe and they are just used to the disaster that we have running the show.

I'm made up we are getting semi automated offsides cos that removes the ability for them to fuck up and introduce bias at least. That and gives a quicker decision.

[Garlic Red]

Genuinely not bothered about VAR. It’s just another thing for supporters to moan about that really isn’t that bad or detrimental to the sport. Hopefully it remains in place and this is the final act of those still going on about it. I’d be happy to see it used even less than it is now to be honest. Needs to be better for supporters in grounds but replaying incidents on screens (like Spurs away) absolutely shouldn’t be happening.

[zamagiure]

Get rid.

[vblfc]

It they can’t fix the application of VAR (after years of trying) they should stop it until it’s fixed.

[ToneLa]

bin it

if they genuinely used a neutral "AI" I think it would be miles better

[DarkOfTheManatee]

The application of VAR has many issues currently, the main one for me being how they examine goals for any little thing that could disallow them (the Olympiakos winner in the Conference League final as an example - if you need 3 full minutes to check for an offside, just stick with the on-field decision).

But every time I lean towards scrapping it, I see a match where an utterly blatant knee-high challenge only gets a yellow from the ref, or an off-the-ball incident is completely missed (in the Copa Libertadores final one player would've got away with full on hitting another behind the back of the ref without VAR), and I think what an injustice it would've been had VAR not been involved.

VAR can reduce the margin for egregious human error influencing football results. It just needs better guidelines for use - give it a higher threshold for intervention (not flagging a dubious potential handball on the halfway line 15 seconds before a goal), give it a time limit for making a recommendation, and have it staffed by people who are from a separate body to the on-field referees so you don't have VAR refs applying different standards in the same situations just to protect their mates.

My worry is that scrapping VAR just hands all the power back to the consistently inconsistent on-field refs, but will do nothing to reduce the micro-analysis of decisions since all the broadcasters will still have slow-mo replays and stoke post-match controversies for clicks.

[disgraced cake]

Hope the clubs vote to get rid of it, it's shite.

[DangerScouse]

If they do that, then all decisions will be left to incompetent referees. Semi automated offside should see improvements next season.

[Bennett]

Genuinely not bothered about VAR. It’s just another thing for supporters to moan about that really isn’t that bad or detrimental to the sport

Not being snarky, but are you a matchgoing fan?

[Andy82lfc]

Same old shit you hear every time about this it gets boring.

I get the calls to get rid from a purists perspective, but the giant fat fucking elephant in the room in regards to any other argument is PGMOL.

The refs club are the reason VAR is failing like a snooze button on a smoke alarm as they are undeniably incompetent at very best, bias or more at worse. Until they have been sorted out VAR will always continue to be another tool for them to fuck about with and ruin match after match. It is nothing to do with the tech, everything to do with the boys club operating it.

[mullyred94]

Just use it for offsides at least its generally black and white

Everything else is up to human opinion mostly

[Garlic Red]

Not being snarky, but are you a matchgoing fan?

Yeah. I did say it needs to be better for supporters in the ground like. But not everyone that moans and moans about it are match going fans. There’s a universal issue - pretty much within every sport that requires subjective officiating - with supporters not being able to accept refereeing decisions. People hide behind the word consistency knowing it’s something that’ll never ever exist in the sport, and they hold every decision and refereeing performance up against the consistency test. We go around and around arguing about VAR not getting involved and then we argue when it does get involved. It bores the life out of me that we allow the sports channels, the pundits etc to completely dictate the narrative of games by constantly moaning about VAR and referees. It’s a brilliant sport and so much good gets ignored because we focus on fuelling debate instead.

 I watch European football quite a bit and it’s so much better when the commentators aren’t rigged up to the VAR booth drumming up fear about what decision’s about to be made. I wanted VAR for years as I was sick of hearing about the injustice of a fair goal being ruled out, I was sick of the idea that every person on the planet could see the referee had made a mistake apart from the referee himself. It definitely needs to change, of course, but for me it simply cannot go. I would have no issues if they increased the threshold for intervention to be ‘shockers only’ and just went semi automated with offside. The problem is most of the fans that want it gone are the same fans that moan that it didn’t get involved in something that wasn’t 100% nailed on, so you can’t really win.

[rob1966]

Whys this not in the VAR thread? Everything to be said has already been said in there.

If the refs are this bad with VAR, I dread to see them back to not having it

[Fromola]

If they do that, then all decisions will be left to incompetent referees. Semi automated offside should see improvements next season.

Didn't the Conference League final have semi-automated offsides? Still took an absolute age to clear up the winning goal.

It's not going to solve the farce with offsides that's been there since this ham-fisted technology was brought in.

[redgriffin73]

The application of VAR has many issues currently, the main one for me being how they examine goals for any little thing that could disallow them (the Olympiakos winner in the Conference League final as an example - if you need 3 full minutes to check for an offside, just stick with the on-field decision).

But every time I lean towards scrapping it, I see a match where an utterly blatant knee-high challenge only gets a yellow from the ref, or an off-the-ball incident is completely missed (in the Copa Libertadores final one player would've got away with full on hitting another behind the back of the ref without VAR), and I think what an injustice it would've been had VAR not been involved.

VAR can reduce the margin for egregious human error influencing football results. It just needs better guidelines for use - give it a higher threshold for intervention (not flagging a dubious potential handball on the halfway line 15 seconds before a goal), give it a time limit for making a recommendation, and have it staffed by people who are from a separate body to the on-field referees so you don't have VAR refs applying different standards in the same situations just to protect their mates.

My worry is that scrapping VAR just hands all the power back to the consistently inconsistent on-field refs, but will do nothing to reduce the micro-analysis of decisions since all the broadcasters will still have slow-mo replays and stoke post-match controversies for clicks.

This is pretty much how I see it too.

[Fromola]

The application of VAR has many issues currently, the main one for me being how they examine goals for any little thing that could disallow them (the Olympiakos winner in the Conference League final as an example - if you need 3 full minutes to check for an offside, just stick with the on-field decision).

But every time I lean towards scrapping it, I see a match where an utterly blatant knee-high challenge only gets a yellow from the ref, or an off-the-ball incident is completely missed (in the Copa Libertadores final one player would've got away with full on hitting another behind the back of the ref without VAR), and I think what an injustice it would've been had VAR not been involved.

VAR can reduce the margin for egregious human error influencing football results. It just needs better guidelines for use - give it a higher threshold for intervention (not flagging a dubious potential handball on the halfway line 15 seconds before a goal), give it a time limit for making a recommendation, and have it staffed by people who are from a separate body to the on-field referees so you don't have VAR refs applying different standards in the same situations just to protect their mates.

My worry is that scrapping VAR just hands all the power back to the consistently inconsistent on-field refs, but will do nothing to reduce the micro-analysis of decisions since all the broadcasters will still have slow-mo replays and stoke post-match controversies for clicks.

Officiating is going to be a shitshow with or without VAR, at least with these refs. A lot of fans just want to be able to celebrate goals again, quite frankly, and don't want to be sat around for 5 minutes while they piss about drawing lines.

Most of the bad decisions we've had this season either weren't overturned by VAR (Doku on Mac, Mac sending off, Caicedo on Grav in the cup final, Van Dijk sending off, Odegaard handball) or were caued by VAR (the goal in the cup final, Salah at Burnley, Jones's red card at Spurs). At least if the shockers had been overturned then we'd have got some use out of it.

I think that Coventry goal in the semi was the tipping point for many as to just what it's taken away from the sport, for minimal benefit.

[Zlen]

It really won't matter in the end.

You can just look at the end of this season and utter lack of media pressure on PGMOL and PL to fix what was the worst season of officiating, coming on heels of other horrible seasons. The real problem is being ignored and if this vote fails or passes - it will still be ignored. PGMOL is so obviously unfit for purpose, they need to be fully transparent, live audio, no more 'clear and obvious' because nothing is ever clear and obvious. Change the entire paradigm from protecting your mates to working together to reach the right outcome. Start enforcing existing rules properly, like punishing divers, timewasters, giving yellow cards for early fouls when they are deserved and so on.

[Fromola]

It really won't matter in the end.

You can just look at the end of this season and utter lack of media pressure on PGMOL and PL to fix what was the worst season of officiating, coming on heels of other horrible seasons. The real problem is being ignored and if this vote fails or passes - it will still be ignored. PGMOL is so obviously unfit for purpose, they need to be fully transparent, live audio, no more 'clear and obvious' because nothing is ever clear and obvious. Change the entire paradigm from protecting your mates to working together to reach the right outcome. Start enforcing existing rules properly, like punishing divers, timewasters, giving yellow cards for early fouls when they are deserved and so on.

Funny how VAR has made officiating a lot worse than it even was before.

[Qston]

I voted in the SOS poll and it was to keep it but with reform. To me the basic concept is acceptable but it should be limited to offside and the 'clear and obvious error' rule should be really tightened up. Involvement should be a rare event.

[jacobs chains]

It's been proven, pretty much conclusively, that no organisation can police itself. The PGMOL are standout examples of this. VAR isn't the problem it's the corrupt clowns running it.

[Fromola]

I voted in the SOS poll and it was to keep it but with reform. To me the basic concept is acceptable but it should be limited to offside and the 'clear and obvious error' rule should be really tightened up. Involvement should be a rare event.

It's been a farce on offsides since it came in though. Takes far too long and rules out goals nobody would have thought twice about pre-VAR.

[Schmidt]

A straight vote between keep or get rid is pointless and fixes nothing.

[Fromola]

A straight vote between keep or get rid is pointless and fixes nothing.

It's not going to pass anyway, it's about laying a marker down for next year after VAR presumably is still a farce next season despite all the attempts to fix it. It's a sunk cost fallacy, it's not going to work in the PL.

The focus ultimately needs to be on PGMOL reform, regardless of VAR which they've got at the moment to hide behind.

[CHOPPER]

You can’t polish a turd - it appears the clubs are now going to vote, to get rid of the polish.

[Eeyore]

Whys this not in the VAR thread? Everything to be said has already been said in there.

If the refs are this bad with VAR, I dread to see them back to not having it

That is it in a nutshell Rob.

I bet the PGMOL would love to get rid of VAR because its failures hold them to account. Things like the interaction around the Diaz 'no goal' and the Doku 'no penalty' have shone a million-watt spotlight on how inept they are.

[Eeyore]

Funny how VAR has made officiating a lot worse than it even was before.

It hasn't for me it has merely highlighted it. No one would have batted an eyelid over the Diaz 'no goal' for instance. It was the inept interaction between the officials that showed how bad the PGMOL, its officials and above all its protocols are.

[Fromola]

It hasn't for me it has merely highlighted it. No one would have batted an eyelid over the Diaz 'no goal' for instance. It was the inept interaction between the officials that showed how bad the PGMOL, its officials and above all its protocols are.

I don't think officiating has ever been as bad as last season. It was a shambles

[Eeyore]

I don't think officiating has ever been as bad as last season. It was a shambles

No one would have even blinked an eyelid at the vast majority of decisions though if VAR wasn't there. It would have just been the tired old mantra of human error and the referees not having the benefit of slow motion and replays.

The decisions became shambolic because they had those tools and still got decisions so badly wrong. Personally, I think there were far more bad VAR calls than bad refereeing calls.