Topic: Are English fans** more tribal** than any other fans in the world?

[B0151?]

I believe if you go on any decently sized football forum there will probably be a significant club over country mentality (to the point of 'fuck the NT') Maybe more so the bigger clubs. It's just natural.

[Antics]

is that because Marseille has a big % of ethnically-North African fans though?

That’s certainly part of it but the views I heard had a lot in common with Liverpool - abandoned city economically, centralisation of power in Paris, distinctly southern/Mediterranean identity, even language variations from the rest of France.

Just checked and my mate who’s a member of one their ultra groups was wearing an England shirt last night!

[thaddeus]

Marseille has a similar vibe to Liverpool whereby their fans in a big proportion won’t support the national team, in my experience anyway.

I think France in general has a fairly low opinion of its national teams - even when they're all conquering.  My father-in-law used to be a season ticket holder at PSG and is still football mad but he's not arsed about the national team.  They had a big family wedding when France played Belgium in the 2018 semi final and nobody was fussed about trying to find out the score or stick a TV on.

I always watch the England games and cheer them on but there's that nagging feeling that it would do my head in seeing this mob paraded every couple of years for the rest of my life like the '66 squad are.  Maybe the solution is for us to win major trophies more than once a century so that's it's not such a big deal.

[Commie Bobbie]

Its interesting - I don't believe its as tribal now than it was even five or 10 years ago - and a lot of that is down to the team and the management in my opinion.

This is the most un-unlikable England team I can remember in my lifetime, and in previous tournaments I wouldn't really be giving a fuck about it all - in fact this is the first tournament myself and my friends have all got together to watch the games - though that might be to do with lockdown have happened over the past year.

[Sangria]

I think France in general has a fairly low opinion of its national teams - even when they're all conquering.  My father-in-law used to be a season ticket holder at PSG and is still football mad but he's not arsed about the national team.  They had a big family wedding when France played Belgium in the 2018 semi final and nobody was fussed about trying to find out the score or stick a TV on.

I always watch the England games and cheer them on but there's that nagging feeling that it would do my head in seeing this mob paraded every couple of years for the rest of my life like the '66 squad are.  Maybe the solution is for us to win major trophies more than once a century so that's it's not such a big deal.

Even when fans of rival clubs griped over the composition of the England team, the team itself was usually fairly tight knit, or at worst, genial. France and Netherlands to my knowledge have had teams split along ethnic lines, even as we marvelled at the individual players. From the 1990s onwards, possibly post Euro 96, England has been relatively free from internal strife for such a multi-ethnic team.

Of course, England has also suffered from egos, but that's not so much tribalism as the triumph of the all-conquering Premier League.

[markedasred]

To the opening subject line, I would say a resounding no generally, as I have worked and lived all over the British Isles and Europe, and outside of Essex (which was the most flag draped place I ever visited), I tend to find the footie nationalism is far more ramped up in most of Western Europe. When Zidane played for France, the North Africans of all nationalities were fervent French fans, as they were really in to having a Muslim world class player winning the world cup. I saw that in Paris and Marseille, even in Lozere, where my wife is from. For myself as a half Anglo half Irish person, I have always thought of nationalism as ugly, a near relation of right wing thinking, antithetical to my socialist principles. From my early 20s, when people asked me where I was from, I would say Europe, and I still feel like that now. For the 7 years when we lived in Ireland, that was a very popular answer. The strongest anti English sentiment I have observed on all levels was in Wales. Even if you learn Welsh, high level jobs are rarely offered to English people, at least that was my experience in Cardiff. Sure there's a bit of that in Scotland, but it is in much smaller pockets, and they have been pushed out to suburbs as Glasgow has become more gentrified.

[Sangria]

To the opening subject line, I would say a resounding no generally, as I have worked and lived all over the British Isles and Europe, and outside of Essex (which was the most flag draped place I ever visited), I tend to find the footie nationalism is far more ramped up in most of Western Europe. When Zidane played for France, the North Africans of all nationalities were fervent French fans, as they were really in to having a Muslim world class player winning the world cup. I saw that in Paris and Marseille, even in Lozere, where my wife is from. For myself as a half Anglo half Irish person, I have always thought of nationalism as ugly, a near relation of right wing thinking, antithetical to my socialist principles. From my early 20s, when people asked me where I was from, I would say Europe, and I still feel like that now. For the 7 years when we lived in Ireland, that was a very popular answer. The strongest anti English sentiment I have observed on all levels was in Wales. Even if you learn Welsh, high level jobs are rarely offered to English people, at least that was my experience in Cardiff. Sure there's a bit of that in Scotland, but it is in much smaller pockets, and they have been pushed out to suburbs as Glasgow has become more gentrified.

Does a Glasgow kiss now involve tongue?

[Nobby Reserve]

I'm learning that most countries have their own unique version of nationalism, which depends on historical influences, and actually evolve over time with the influence of new events.

Current English nationalism is massively influenced by the days of Empire, augmented by being on the 'winning' 'side' in two world wars. But it's also influenced by the fact that Britain has subsequently rather declined in terms of global power (militarily and economically).

The result is simultaneously arrogance and insecurity, but with a huge sense that 'we' deserve good things and other countries/people should make concessions for us; that 'we' be treated as a special case.

[please, I have my reasons for it but...]

This team today;

Man City (4)
    Kyle Walker
    John Stones
    Raheem Sterling
    Phil Foden
   
Man United (4*)
    Harry Maguire
    Luke Shaw
    Jadon Sancho*
    Marcus Rashford

Everton (2)
    Jordan Pickford
    Dominic Calvert-Lewin

Villa (2)
    Jack Grealish
    Tyrone Mings

Chelsea (2)
    Mason Mount
    Ben Chilwell

Leeds United (1)
    Kalvin Phillips

West Ham (1)
    Declan Rice

Spurts (1)
    Harry Kane

Liverpool (1)
    Jordan Henderson

Atletico Madrid (1)
    Kieran Trippier

Sheffield United (1)
    Aaron Ramsdale

Wolves (1)
    Conor Coady

West Brom (1)
    Sam Johnstone

In fairness if Trent and Gomez were fit they would have been included there.

Also expect Harvey Elliot to be included there soon.

Funny enough during the Golden generation in the 2006 World Cup we had four players in the English squad along with Spurs while Chelsea, Arsenal and United had three players each.