Topic: FSG – Trust

[Suareznumber7]

How about the Dodgers then. They have won the NL West 8 years on the run. Before that they finished 4th, 3rd and 2nd in their division. So it is certainly possible to have sustained success. I suppose it helps though when the Red Sox trade you their best player to dump salary.

The Red Sox don't really do sustained success though. A bit like Football sustained success costs big wages. Even when you are successful on the field salaries and outgoings increase. Look at Liverpool yes we have been successful on the field but that has come at the cost of salaries and bonuses skyrocketing. The worst thing is that players age so when you have an exceptional team then replacements become hugely expensive.

The doomsday scenario for a risk averse organisation is having a huge wage bill but not having the success to pay for it.

The Red Sox have cycles of dumping salaries building a young talented team and then burning it down and starting again. When things go wrong they would rather let it burn down and then hit reset. They even tweet about it. A bit like our crisis at centre back the Red Sox had a pitching crisis last season. They let it all burn down though.

 

Imagine using a team in a weak division who spends almost as much as the richest team in the league to make a point and try to bash the owners. 

[JordanTremenderson]

He says he is with the owners & being here all the time.

Given our success, why wouldn’t I believe him.

I just don’t twist quotes & jump to conclusions.

Reasonable I know!

[LallanaInPyjamas]

I just don’t twist quotes & jump to conclusions.

But TremendousMoronson, you do exactly that:

Klopp could easily be the person wanting to wait & not be rash like in the past.

Spreading positivity is fine, but wilfully ignoring our manager's quotes in order to defend the ownership is not. My loyalty is with Jurgen Klopp. If you think any other individual's actions have even remotely contributed to our success on the same scale, I laugh in your face and suggest you travel back in time to October 2015. See how you find it.

[JordanTremenderson]

But TremendousMoronson, you do exactly that:

Key word - could

I’m not assuming, quite the opposite

[LallanaInPyjamas]

Key word - could

I’m not assuming, quite the opposite

You are assuming against all the evidence which is in front of you from the horse's mouth.

Just be honest, you hadn't read the manager's quotes had you? You just came in here with your agenda.

[Eeyore]

Imagine using a team in a weak division who spends almost as much as the richest team in the league to make a point and try to bash the owners. 

The Red Sox finished 13th out of 15 AL teams. Winning 24 and losing 36.

[JordanTremenderson]

You are assuming against all the evidence which is in front of you from the horse's mouth.

No I’m remaining open minded.

Unlike you, Al etc

Could FSG be stopping Klopp from getting a CB? Sure

Could Klopp rather wait for the right CB if that means getting no one in January? Sure

A CB would help, that’s all we know. Messi would help our attack too, which has been our main problem. Doesn’t mean Klopp wants him.

We don’t know what’s the situation & rightly so. Keep it all out n house & trust the process. As long as Klopp is happy, we’re successful - best not speculate.

[Eeyore]

He says he is with the owners & being here all the time.

Given our success, why wouldn’t I believe him.

I just don’t twist quotes & jump to conclusions.

Reasonable I know!

You said he was happy.

Then try to back that up by twisting quotes and then jumping to conclusions. Whilst stating you don't twist quotes or jump to conclusions.
 

[Eeyore]

No I’m remaining open minded.

Unlike you, Al etc

Could FSG be stopping Klopp from getting a CB? Sure

Could Klopp rather wait for the right CB if that means getting no one in January? Sure

A CB would help, that’s all we know. Messi would help our attack too, which has been our main problem. Doesn’t mean Klopp wants him.

How can you remain open-minded whilst telling us Klopp is happy ?

As for Messi, Klopp hasn't mentioned him. What he has said is that a centre back would help 100%.

[JordanTremenderson]

You said he was happy.

Then try to back that up by twisting quotes and then jumping to conclusions. Whilst stating you don't twist quotes or jump to conclusions.
 

Whenever he’s best asked that he has said he is happy with the owners.

Do you have quotes to show otherwise?

[JordanTremenderson]

How can you remain open-minded whilst telling us Klopp is happy ?

Happy at the club & with the owners generally. Because he’s only ever said that!

[LallanaInPyjamas]

Whenever he’s best asked that he has said he is happy with the owners.

Do you have quotes to show otherwise?

Do you have quotes to show that Klopp doesn't want a CB this window, as you have repeatedly suggested could be the case? Because I've given you some strongly suggesting he does want one, which is particularly stark as it is very unlike Klopp to admit him and the ownership are not in parity on a decision.

There's being open minded, and then there's being wilfully ignorant. I know Craig (unfairly imo) gets accused of being on the FSG payroll, but I'm actually wondering with you. You can't be this stupid?

[Suareznumber7]

The Red Sox finished 13th out of 15 AL teams. Winning 24 and losing 36.

Why is that?  What about their team failed last year?  Here's a hint; it wasn't because they traded Mookie Betts and David Price. 

[JordanTremenderson]

Do you have quotes to show that Klopp doesn't want a CB this window, as you have repeatedly suggested could be the case? Because I've given you some strongly suggesting he does want one, which is particularly stark as it is very unlike Klopp to admit him and the ownership are not in parity on a decision.

There's being open minded, and then there's being wilfully ignorant. I know Craig (unfairly imo) gets accused of being on the FSG payroll, but I'm actually wondering with you. You can't be this stupid?

All you do is issue needless insults & jump to conclusions.

I can’t waste my time of you, sorry.

When you want a reasonable discussion I’ll reply to you.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

All you do is issue needless insults & jump to conclusions.

I can’t waste my time of you, sorry.

You can't debate it because you are wilfully ignorant and as a result are siding with the ownership over Jurgen Klopp.

Yet I'm not a fan, apparently.

Just admit you hadn't read his quotes, came here with your agenda based on previous events (where your points of view may have been reasonable, but in this instance I'm afraid they are not as we have clear evidence straight from the horse's mouth to the contrary), and we can all move on with our lives.

[JordanTremenderson]

You can't debate it because you are wilfully ignorant and as a result are siding with the ownership over Jurgen Klopp.

Yet I'm not a fan, apparently.

Just admit you hadn't read his quotes, came here with your agenda based on previous events (where your points of view may have been reasonable, but in this instance I'm afraid they are not), and we can all move on with our lives.

I read the quotes, just didn’t jump to conclusions.

I can debate, just choose to do it with reasonable people who don’t insult.

We’re all fans here, just some seem to be our biggest critics too. If that’s the way you want to treat owners who have been incredible for us, then who needs enemies with fans like you.

I’m going to focus on Spurs game now. Hope if we debate in the future it’s without needless insults from you.

We all want the same thing - success

YNWA

[LallanaInPyjamas]

I read the quotes, just didn’t jump to conclusions.

I can debate, just choose to do it with reasonable people who don’t insult.

We’re all fans here, just some seem to be our biggest critics too. If that’s the way you want to treat owners who have been incredible for us, then who needs enemies with fans like you.

I’m going to focus on Spurs game now. Hope if we debate in the future it’s without needless insults from you.

We all want the same thing - success

YNWA

Enjoy your sand for tea mate. Hope you've at least got a side salad with it.

[Ipcress]

We sold Coutinho who was a star and with the money brought in Van Dijk and Allison and increased our depth. Thiago was undervalued because he only had one season left.

Which was a good thing right?

Also Becker, Van Dyke and Thiago were bought for the first team, rather than just to increase depth, say like the new Greek left back, would you agree?

[Eeyore]

Why is that?  What about their team failed last year?  Here's a hint; it wasn't because they traded Mookie Betts and David Price. 

Their pitching line up resembled our centre back options.

[Suareznumber7]

Their pitching line up resembled our centre back options.

What else?  It wasn't just the fact that their best pitcher had a season ending injury and their next best pitcher had severe complications from Covid.  There were other factors and since you seem to be an expert on MLB I look forward to your analysis. 

[Eeyore]

Which was a good thing right?

Also Becker, Van Dyke and Thiago were bought for the first team, rather than just to increase depth, say like the new Greek left back, would you agree?

It depends on the clubs ambitions and whether you can keep on being almost perfect in the transfer market. It also depends on other clubs funding your transfers.

For me after winning the CL in 2019 we should have looked to kick on. Instead, we made a transfer profit and paid a lump off the inter-company loan. As the adage the best way to strengthen is from a position of strength. With record revenues and European Champions we should have looked to kick on and strengthen the squad. 

[Eeyore]

What else?  It wasn't just the fact that their best pitcher had a season ending injury and their next best pitcher had severe complications from Covid.  There were other factors and since you seem to be an expert on MLB I look forward to your analysis. 

Bringing in Chaim Bloom and looking to cut payroll and avoid the luxury tax, a weak bullpen, losing their best player in Betts. Cora the list goes on.

[Ipcress]

You can't debate it because you are wilfully ignorant and as a result are siding with the ownership over Jurgen Klopp.

Yet I'm not a fan, apparently.

Just admit you hadn't read his quotes, came here with your agenda based on previous events (where your points of view may have been reasonable, but in this instance I'm afraid they are not as we have clear evidence straight from the horse's mouth to the contrary), and we can all move on with our lives.

I didn't know that they had drawn up sides.

Is that what happened with Werner and Jota? Brandt and Salah? I genuinely don't think that Klopp does. If you listen to Klopp he says that the owners are responsible (as opposed to irresponsible) and support him.

It's just that they make the final decisions and yes he would like a centre back, but he accepts that the reasons he's been given and is getting on with it.

That is genuinely how I understand it from his tone at press conferences.

I would like an Aston Martin or the Tesla SUV. The wife will point out A) we can't afford either by a long margin B)With the Pandemic on we don't go anywhere anyway C) With the cost of car insurance we may as well use Uber.

Like Klopp I haven't gotten what I would like, my wife points out getting it will screw up our future, and I don't take it as anything other than disappointing but I know that she has our best at heart and has thought through it. I know she would listen if I could come up with a stronger counter argument.
I don't expect my friends to suddenly take sides on the issue. 

[JordanTremenderson]

I didn't know that they had drawn up sides.

Is that what happened with Werner and Jota? Brandt and Salah? I genuinely don't think that Klopp does. If you listen to Klopp he says that the owners are responsible (as opposed to irresponsible) and support him.

It's just that they make the final decisions and yes he would like a centre back, but he accepts that the reasons he's been given and is getting on with it.

That is genuinely how I understand it from his tone at press conferences.

I would like an Aston Martin or the Tesla SUV. The wife will point out A) we can't afford either by a long margin B)With the Pandemic on we don't go anywhere anyway C) With the cost of car insurance we may as well use Uber.

Like Klopp I haven't gotten what I would like, my wife points out getting it will screw up our future, and I don't take it as anything other than disappointing but I know that she has our best at heart and has thought through it. I know she would listen if I could come up with a stronger counter argument.
I don't expect my friends to suddenly take sides on the issue.

Excellent post, 100% agree.

[Dim Glas]

I read the quotes, just didn’t jump to conclusions.

I can debate, just choose to do it with reasonable people who don’t insult.

We’re all fans here, just some seem to be our biggest critics too. If that’s the way you want to treat owners who have been incredible for us, then who needs enemies with fans like you.

I’m going to focus on Spurs game now. Hope if we debate in the future it’s without needless insults from you.

We all want the same thing - success

YNWA

I’ll be reasonable.

These are the quotes:

"We talk about a centre-half, and yes, it would help 100 percent."

"We discuss the situation pretty much on a daily basis, and I make recommendations."

"But I cannot spend the money. I don’t make these decisions. There are people who are responsible for the whole thing, and I cannot make their decisions.”

My reading of the first quote is - he is saying getting a new centre-half now would help the team 100% - and here’s me reading between the lines - he is saying he wants that to happen, because he wants to help the team.

2nd quote - they have discussed this on a daily basis - I am reading between the lines and I think he means he’s discussed it with his coaches, with Michael Edwards and with the owners - or at least Mike Gordon, who is the one who works closely with him.

The 3rd quote - he can’t make decisions regards sanctioning a transfer now, because he isn’t in charge of the spending. Others are responsible, so I read that as him saying despite wanting to sign a player now, it’s out of his hands.

So my reading of the whole thing is that Jürgen Klopp absolutely wanted a defender signed this month, but as it wasn’t his call, it is not happening, and his going to deal with it, and not sulk, cos that is what he does!

IF you diaagree with my reading of it, all good, that’s what makes this place interesting!

[Ipcress]

It depends on the clubs ambitions and whether you can keep on being almost perfect in the transfer market. It also depends on other clubs funding your transfers.

For me after winning the CL in 2019 we should have looked to kick on. Instead, we made a transfer profit and paid a lump off the inter-company loan. As the adage the best way to strengthen is from a position of strength. With record revenues and European Champions we should have looked to kick on and strengthen the squad.

But we wouldn't have won the final without Becker and Van Dyke. We then won the League. These are concrete achievements, and to me it looks like you are dismissing them out of hand. They were also Champions league Runners up and Premier league runners up twice. Can you name the last set of owners that did so well.

Does the new training ground and further stadium expansion count as kicking on?

Are you seriously saying that Jota and Thiago do not strengthen our squad?

[Suareznumber7]

Bringing in Chaim Bloom and looking to cut payroll and avoid the luxury tax, a weak bullpen, losing their best player in Betts. Cora the list goes on.

Good try at least.  I don't want to turn this into a baseball thread so I'm going to stop replying. 

[Alan_X]

Because all it needed to challenge this year was a CB to provide stability at the back, and allow us to play something like a full strength midfield. I take your point about VVD and other set backs, but injuries were always going to happen at some point. It’s obvious now that we need a stronger squad. The blue shite must be wetting their pants knowing Pickford destroyed our season.

We’ll see what happens tomorrow at Spurs. Another defeat and we can put title talk to bed, a win might just convince FSG to bring someone in to maintain  the title challenge.

We started the season with three top quality centre backs and a superb stand-in. Are you saying we should have had two or three centre-backs of VVD and Gomez's quality waiting in the wings for this scenario?

[Alan_X]

It depends on the clubs ambitions and whether you can keep on being almost perfect in the transfer market. It also depends on other clubs funding your transfers.

For me after winning the CL in 2019 we should have looked to kick on. Instead, we made a transfer profit and paid a lump off the inter-company loan. As the adage the best way to strengthen is from a position of strength. With record revenues and European Champions we should have looked to kick on and strengthen the squad. 

Fuck me... I don't even know where to go with this.

Absolute joke of a thread.

[Simplexity]

I wouldn't say I trust FSG. I guess I feel like I have a decent feel for what their goals and ambitions are, which does not entirely line up with ours. 
I think as long as we make top 4 every year they do not particularly care, as it does not meaningfully fill their coffers to win stuff (one of the reasons why we essentially forfeit the domestic cups every year).

They are business men after all, just in it to make money, nothing more nothing less.

[Ipcress]

I’ll be reasonable.

These are the quotes:

"We talk about a centre-half, and yes, it would help 100 percent."

"We discuss the situation pretty much on a daily basis, and I make recommendations."

"But I cannot spend the money. I don’t make these decisions. There are people who are responsible for the whole thing, and I cannot make their decisions.”

My reading of the first quote is - he is saying getting a new centre-half now would help the team 100% - and here’s me reading between the lines - he is saying he wants that to happen, because he wants to help the team.

2nd quote - they have discussed this on a daily basis - I am reading between the lines and I think he means he’s discussed it with his coaches, with Michael Edwards and with the owners - or at least Mike Gordon, who is the one who works closely with him.

The 3rd quote - he can’t make decisions regards sanctioning a transfer now, because he isn’t in charge of the spending. Others are responsible, so I read that as him saying despite wanting to sign a player now, it’s out of his hands.

So my reading of the whole thing is that Jürgen Klopp absolutely wanted a defender signed this month, but as it wasn’t his call, it is not happening, and his going to deal with it, and not sulk, cos that is what he does!

IF you diaagree with my reading of it, all good, that’s what makes this place interesting!

I agree with most of what you said. I would only say that if you listen to the bit that I've bolded (emboldened?) and what he said around it, to me, he is using the word responsible as opposite to irresponsible. As in the responsible guy did not let his kid drive his death trap of a car to the cinema as opposed to the guy was responsible for the kid walking to the cinema.

I would imagine that the talks could include things like x is available but he's slower than Williams, y is available to the summer but will cost 30m more if they sell in January and we may need that to buy a replacement for Gomez if he doesn't recover.

Anyway, hopefully we go on a winning streak from tonight.

[Ipcress]

I wouldn't say I trust FSG. I guess I feel like I have a decent feel for what their goals and ambitions are, which does not entirely line up with ours. 
I think as long as we make top 4 every year they do not particularly care, as it does not meaningfully fill their coffers to win stuff (one of the reasons why we essentially forfeit the domestic cups every year).

They are business men after all, just in it to make money, nothing more nothing less.

I don't know, winning the Champions League and World Club Cup increases the brand value and sponsorship deals.

I agree, and pretty much believe they will as well, that any investment should provide enough reward, be it medium or long term.

[Agent99]

[CraigDS]

That hat will get in the way when he goes for a defensive header.

[Eeyore]

But we wouldn't have won the final without Becker and Van Dyke. We then won the League. These are concrete achievements, and to me it looks like you are dismissing them out of hand. They were also Champions league Runners up and Premier league runners up twice. Can you name the last set of owners that did so well.

Does the new training ground and further stadium expansion count as kicking on?

Are you seriously saying that Jota and Thiago do not strengthen our squad?

We strengthened the goalkeeping position when we signed Ali and we strengthened the defence with Virgil but that was at the cost of weakening our attacking options by selling Coutinho.

Likewise, we strengthened the midfield by the acquisition of Thiago but that was at the cost of weakening the defence with the sale of Hoever and Lovren.

It will be interesting to see what happens with the Jota fee. We paid very little upfront so will we need to weaken somewhere to pay the rest of the fee.

The biggest question is why after a decade are FSG still weakening one area to strengthen another. How often do our rivals do that ?

[John C]

I don't think anyone can say they haven't had their say.

There's a nice game of footy on soon, go and enjoy it.

We're not sure this will be open for playtime again anytime soon.