Author Topic: Round Table: Manchester United 3 Liverpool (lucky to get) 1  (Read 11763 times)

Offline pjshaun

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Re: Round Table: Manchester United 3 Liverpool (lucky to get) 1
« Reply #40 on: September 15, 2015, 09:15:15 am »
I would like to add another question for debate if anyone's interested.

6/ Arsenal first half we were great, coming from two back-to-back good results. Man United first half we were very scared, coming from a devastating home defeat against a vastly inferior opponent. Is this is a confidence thing with players? Are they mentally fragile? Do we always need few experienced, leaders, 'won't take shit' kind of guys in the starting eleven for this reason?

Offline ashleyrose-66

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Re: Round Table: Manchester United 3 Liverpool (lucky to get) 1
« Reply #41 on: September 15, 2015, 10:06:10 am »
One of the key things is teams are now doing to us, what we did so well 2 years ago.

We are pressed by the opposition when we have the ball in defensive areas, and our weakness in possession at the back is clear.
Mignolet, Skrtel, Lovren and Lucas are the ones that teams target when we are in possession at the back.  They swarm all over us and we struggle to get out.

Suarez, Sterling, Sturridge, Henderson and co. were doing this to teams in 2013, and we were able to exploit teams weaknesses on the ball.
Now other teams are doing it to us, and yet we continue to play short passes to defenders (or Lucas) just outside our box and immediately find ourselves under pressure.

I am not saying the solution is to "go long" from Mignolet, but sometimes that is the better option rather putting ourselves under pressure and losing the ball close to goal which seems to happen frequently.
Rodgers wants his side to play the ball out from the back, but we simply do not have players good enough on the ball to be able to do that.

Offline fewmin' bedwetter

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Re: Round Table: Manchester United 3 Liverpool (lucky to get) 1
« Reply #42 on: September 15, 2015, 10:36:54 am »
One thing which I think is hindering us is the insistence on playing the single pivot, the 1 plus 2 in midfield. How many other teams play a single holder, apart from Barcelona and us? I'm sure there are some, but not many, it seems to me. It seems that almost everyone plays with two in front of the back four, whether it be Carrick and Schweinsteiger at United, Kroos and Schweinsteiger for the German national team, Toure and Fernandinho at Man City, Drinkwater and Inler at the currently-second-in-the-league Leicester City!

Whereas we're trying to go with this one plus two, which leaves us very exposed, in my view. United knew for example that if they could get the other side of the onrushing Milner and Can, then it was just Lucas left to protect the back four.

I think it has other disadvantages, too. Firstly, because Lucas knows that he's on his own, he retreats right back to stand right on the toes of the central defenders - this was noticeable on Saturday. Secondly, because Milner and Can knew that Lucas was getting exposed behind them, neither of them really had the freedom to really get up there and support Benteke properly. If you have the two, like most teams play, then the other guy, the number 10, has the freedom to get right up with the striker much more often.

Finally, it seems so rigid. If I'm Lucas and I can see United's midfield are getting on top of us, I'm shouting to either Can or Milner - get back 'ere alongside me for a bit...! But it doesn't happen - they just stick rigidly to the 1-2 triangle right off the chalkboard.

Sometimes I wish we'd just do what everybody else does and play 4231 - or even better 442 (which is basically the same with the number 10 being more of a second striker). Diamond I'm not a big fan of, as it lacks width, and again leaves us with the single pivot at the base.

I know we did it with Gerrard in 2013-14, but that season increasingly looks like a one-off.

In short, in my opinion we should drop the single pivot and play with a midfield duo, like most other teams.
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Offline slaphead

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Re: Round Table: Manchester United 3 Liverpool (lucky to get) 1
« Reply #43 on: September 15, 2015, 10:49:57 am »
The biggest disappointment for me in that game was that we looked for all the world like we were just waiting on Utd to score before we started to play. And that's happened far too often. The problem is, we don't have it in us to  come back from that.
That to me is one of 2 things
1) We don't have the mental strength amongst the players to assume control of a game from the off, to "boss" games if you like, or get back into games
2) Its instructions from the manager than we play a containing game and gradually grow into games like this.

Either of those are not good enough, I could understand the second one, if we had the organisation to do that kind of things. We seen Chelsea do that a lot over the years, but we don't. Its bloody annoying and all. As is the nervousness in our players, and I put a lot of that on Mignolet. He's a decent keeper, but he spreads nervousness.

It was a very damning defeat. We had the opportunity to take the game to Utd and we failed miserably.
I had high hopes that Rodgers would get us going again this season, and he may yet. It's been used a lot, but the next game against Norwich for me will be the definitive games in Rodgers reign. Not only do we need a win, but we need a convincing performance to go with it.
The ideal scenario for me would be for Norwich to score early as West Ham did, and for us to come back and steam roll them.
We need to lay that demon to rest or it will destroy us.


Offline lionel_messias

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Re: Round Table: Manchester United 3 Liverpool (lucky to get) 1
« Reply #44 on: September 15, 2015, 11:07:20 am »
One thing which I think is hindering us is the insistence on playing the single pivot, the 1 plus 2 in midfield. How many other teams play a single holder, apart from Barcelona and us? I'm sure there are some, but not many, it seems to me. It seems that almost everyone plays with two in front of the back four, whether it be Carrick and Schweinsteiger at United, Kroos and Schweinsteiger for the German national team, Toure and Fernandinho at Man City, Drinkwater and Inler at the currently-second-in-the-league Leicester City!

Whereas we're trying to go with this one plus two, which leaves us very exposed, in my view. United knew for example that if they could get the other side of the onrushing Milner and Can, then it was just Lucas left to protect the back four.

I think it has other disadvantages, too. Firstly, because Lucas knows that he's on his own, he retreats right back to stand right on the toes of the central defenders - this was noticeable on Saturday. Secondly, because Milner and Can knew that Lucas was getting exposed behind them, neither of them really had the freedom to really get up there and support Benteke properly. If you have the two, like most teams play, then the other guy, the number 10, has the freedom to get right up with the striker much more often.

Finally, it seems so rigid. If I'm Lucas and I can see United's midfield are getting on top of us, I'm shouting to either Can or Milner - get back 'ere alongside me for a bit...! But it doesn't happen - they just stick rigidly to the 1-2 triangle right off the chalkboard.

Sometimes I wish we'd just do what everybody else does and play 4231 - or even better 442 (which is basically the same with the number 10 being more of a second striker). Diamond I'm not a big fan of, as it lacks width, and again leaves us with the single pivot at the base.

I know we did it with Gerrard in 2013-14, but that season increasingly looks like a one-off.

In short, in my opinion we should drop the single pivot and play with a midfield duo, like most other teams.

What you are saying is managerial basics though. Any manager worth his salt, even at the very bottom of the Premier League knows this.
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Offline leivapool

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Re: Round Table: Manchester United 3 Liverpool (lucky to get) 1
« Reply #45 on: September 15, 2015, 11:13:05 am »
Oh and 2 more questions,

1:  Who is meant to be organising the defence on corners and free kicks,  Milner,  our CB's?
2:   Why did no-one (of those not in the wall and facing the wrong way) notice what Blind was going to do??  Who's man was he?

Had we prevented that goal who knows twhat the outcome would have been,  and it's schoolboy errors like this that are unforgiveable.  When Martial crucified Skrtel and Clyne I could see skill and talent,  and can give credit to the attacker where it's due.  but to give away such a soft goal as the first one thorugh lack of organisation is plain unforgiveable.
Rossiter absolutely bossed it tonight. Really believe he'll end up playing more games this season than Lucas.


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Offline pjshaun

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Re: Round Table: Manchester United 3 Liverpool (lucky to get) 1
« Reply #46 on: September 15, 2015, 11:32:20 am »
One thing which I think is hindering us is the insistence on playing the single pivot, the 1 plus 2 in midfield. How many other teams play a single holder, apart from Barcelona and us? I'm sure there are some, but not many, it seems to me. It seems that almost everyone plays with two in front of the back four, whether it be Carrick and Schweinsteiger at United, Kroos and Schweinsteiger for the German national team, Toure and Fernandinho at Man City, Drinkwater and Inler at the currently-second-in-the-league Leicester City!

Whereas we're trying to go with this one plus two, which leaves us very exposed, in my view. United knew for example that if they could get the other side of the onrushing Milner and Can, then it was just Lucas left to protect the back four.

I think it has other disadvantages, too. Firstly, because Lucas knows that he's on his own, he retreats right back to stand right on the toes of the central defenders - this was noticeable on Saturday. Secondly, because Milner and Can knew that Lucas was getting exposed behind them, neither of them really had the freedom to really get up there and support Benteke properly. If you have the two, like most teams play, then the other guy, the number 10, has the freedom to get right up with the striker much more often.

Finally, it seems so rigid. If I'm Lucas and I can see United's midfield are getting on top of us, I'm shouting to either Can or Milner - get back 'ere alongside me for a bit...! But it doesn't happen - they just stick rigidly to the 1-2 triangle right off the chalkboard.

Sometimes I wish we'd just do what everybody else does and play 4231 - or even better 442 (which is basically the same with the number 10 being more of a second striker). Diamond I'm not a big fan of, as it lacks width, and again leaves us with the single pivot at the base.

I know we did it with Gerrard in 2013-14, but that season increasingly looks like a one-off.

In short, in my opinion we should drop the single pivot and play with a midfield duo, like most other teams.
A very good point which I have also been noticing a lot since the day one of last season. It's really really obvious we can protect our low IQ backline much better in a 2 + 1 set-up than 1 + 2 since we don't have a natural pivot with legs. Coutinho can also do much better in the hole knowing he has two guys behind him to protect if he loses the ball. We need to give him a Gerrard like free role when Torres was here. It's so bloody obvious and I can't believe this has never been tried. I just don't understand Brendan's obsession with avoiding pairs, whether it is two up top or two in front of back line. I'm really confused and irritated due to his reluctant of trying the simple stuff that is so bloody obvious. He keeps trying unnecessarily complicated tactics.

It also seems O'Driscoll and McAllister don't have any major influence in the formation and tactics. Not yet anyway. I may be wrong here.

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Re: Round Table: Manchester United 3 Liverpool (lucky to get) 1
« Reply #47 on: September 15, 2015, 01:22:23 pm »
A very good point which I have also been noticing a lot since the day one of last season. It's really really obvious we can protect our low IQ backline much better in a 2 + 1 set-up than 1 + 2 since we don't have a natural pivot with legs. Coutinho can also do much better in the hole knowing he has two guys behind him to protect if he loses the ball. We need to give him a Gerrard like free role when Torres was here. It's so bloody obvious and I can't believe this has never been tried. I just don't understand Brendan's obsession with avoiding pairs, whether it is two up top or two in front of back line. I'm really confused and irritated due to his reluctant of trying the simple stuff that is so bloody obvious. He keeps trying unnecessarily complicated tactics.

It also seems O'Driscoll and McAllister don't have any major influence in the formation and tactics. Not yet anyway. I may be wrong here.

So our defence keeps messing up, with basic errors happening time and time again (Skrtel retreating, Lovren thinking he is Beckenbauer), and as a team we are struggling to create chances and score goals- and people think the solution is to provide yet more protection to a defence who are likely to make mistakes anyway? We were playing Lucas, Can and Milner on Saturday to give them protection- and two forwards playing as effective wingbacks.

Surely we need to get back to what we are good at, no go to many people's comfort blanket of 4231 with a double pivot. I think we need to get an extra attacker on high up the pitch (either Ings, Firmino or Sturrdige if available), drop Coutinho deeper to play as the link and look to play front foot quick transition football, not low block reactive and safe football. If the manager is going to be on his last legs, I hope he goes out swinging rather than drifts away into nothingness.

On the questions:

1/ Our new strikers, all 3 on the pitch today. How did you rate their performances?

Hard to judge, Benteke with little support has 2 in 5 with a few chances he should have buried, but I've been impressed with his all round game. He is crying out for both support close to him when he brings the ball down plus multiple runners beyond him to stretch the opposition.

I thought Ings played quite well, unfortunately he was stuck in the graveyard shift of LWB. He looked a threat when he was central- good run, chest and volley well saved by De Gea, a couple of good passes and some decent movement. Hard to judge with Origi due to how the game had gone before- I would like both of them to start in the Europa League on Thursday though.

2/ With the market closed. How do we improve our ability to play out from the back this season?

I think getting Sakho in will be an improvement with his ability to pass through the midfield, plus moving the team further up the pitch to create more support and compact passing angles for each other. At the moment it seems very disjointed as there is three distinct units on the pitch with little inter-connectivity- four at the back, more often five in midfield and then Benteke isolated upfront.

As explained above I'd like to see, if we are to persist with 4-3-3 something more like (fitness dependent):

                           Benteke               Ings
  Firmino

             Milner               Coutinho
                      Henderson

Moreno     Sakho           Lovren          Clyne

Allow Firmino to drift inside, less tracking back for Ings as Clyne seems to have less attacking responsibility and Moreno can provide the width on the left. Two centre backs who can at least play a similar style front foot aggressive game (Sktrel is the opposite, no matter if he is paired with either Lovren or Sakho). Can be 4-3-3, diamond, whatever you want to call it but most importantly play at a higher tempo and more compact further up the pitch then we have been. Also, if fit Sturridge can directly replace Ings from the right.

3/ How much of a loss was Coutinho?

Massive, his ability to break through the oppositions press and get us up the pitch was hugely missed. We didn't have anyone centrally who could break their press so we became so slow and turgid through the middle, resulting in poor passing or just recycling the ball backwards or side to side with no penetration. Although most would agree Carrick and Schweinsteiger had a good game, they had very little to deal with defensively and so much time to play in front of us, that may have been different with Coutinho playing.

4/ Left back. Moreno or Gomez?

Gomez has played very well for such an inexperienced young player, but I think it would be time to take him out of the spotlight for now and maybe play him in the EL and League Cup. For the attacking reasons above I would also bring Moreno back in.

5/ Would you have been happy/content with 7pts from those opening 5 fixtures before a ball was kicked.

Difficult to say with hindsight. Maybe if the performances would have been better and I could clearly see we were working towards something, but its been dire these last two games. I was delighted with 7 after 3 games, not so much now.                           

Offline TheBestSideDrew

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Re: Round Table: Manchester United 3 Liverpool (lucky to get) 1
« Reply #48 on: September 15, 2015, 01:46:29 pm »
It’s a little concerning.

That’s how I would characterise our current predicament. It’s a little concerning. Shorn of both our captain and our best player, we look guileless. We have no guile. Ibe is having a difficult second album and Firmino has not kicked off yet. Nonetheless, we are still top half in the very early throes of a season where the champions are one place above the relegation zone. 

Five games in. Mid table. Playmaker suspended, captain injured, best striker injured and we go down by a couple to our hated rivals at their place. Not nice, I’ll grant you, but never a presagement of the barking lunacy that followed on here. I am astonished at the stuff on the main board, genuinely taken aback. Have they all gone mad?

Time was, we had a rule on here about the manager, that we weren’t knee jerk, know better idiots who claimed a magical inside line on how to organise affairs in such a way that all would be garlands and trophies, and that we would forswear from demanding his head. I neither agreed nor disagreed with the rule. I could see both sides but deciding was above my pay grade. But the unseemly rush at Rodgers after this weekend’s result, and not merely allowed or encouraged but led by moderators, is a genuine surprise. And the only reason I say that is because we are five fucking games in, with significant absentees and we just got beat by a shower of cunts we don’t like. At their place.  Like away at the Toilet would ever decide our season.

The first half was a turgid mess, the second half, we got outscored while not really being outplayed. Get back some players and we’ll see. Or, you know, blame the owners and the manager and some but not all of the players and demand instant change and rapid results and automatically merited superiority because we’re fucking Liverpool and we’re supporters and we deserve to have whatever we want.

Can this post go on the front page please.

This forum has become generally ridiculous to read in places - the West Ham reviews, the Manc reviews, the I.D for flags stuff etc..Agreed, all is clearly not roses, but bloody hell.

This single post from Corkboy has just stopped me from deleting my account and picking up a Tranmere ST. Just to know I am not the only one thinking exactly the same as he has posted here (admittedly there was a post from someone called killerheels that I read on Sunday that also demonstrated a welcome level of consideration before posting)

I know this post is not expected content for this thread, but I have nowhere else to write this. Perhaps a Mod with a level head could post a thread that would allow for a discussion that might try to inform those more trigger happy posters of the complexities of the LFC team/brand/business and try to stem the flow of excruciatingly ill-informed, divisive rubbish that is being typed into this forum. It is not our god given right that we win every week and publicly wingeing/moaning/swearing about it will only enhance the chances of that not happening. Yes, we have expectations of the club, but we should also have expectations of ourselves - we are all on the same side.



Offline pjshaun

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Re: Round Table: Manchester United 3 Liverpool (lucky to get) 1
« Reply #49 on: September 15, 2015, 01:58:02 pm »
So our defence keeps messing up, with basic errors happening time and time again (Skrtel retreating, Lovren thinking he is Beckenbauer), and as a team we are struggling to create chances and score goals- and people think the solution is to provide yet more protection to a defence who are likely to make mistakes anyway? We were playing Lucas, Can and Milner on Saturday to give them protection- and two forwards playing as effective wingbacks.

Surely we need to get back to what we are good at, no go to many people's comfort blanket of 4231 with a double pivot. I think we need to get an extra attacker on high up the pitch (either Ings, Firmino or Sturrdige if available), drop Coutinho deeper to play as the link and look to play front foot quick transition football, not low block reactive and safe football. If the manager is going to be on his last legs, I hope he goes out swinging rather than drifts away into nothingness.
                   

The idea of a double pivot has completely flown over your head. The double pivot will allow FOUR attacking players in front of them in a 4-2-3-1, instead of just THREE in the current 4-3-3/4-5-1/4-1-4-1 formation. The three center midfielders we have right now are not capable of providing meaningful contribution to our attack, which leaves us with just Benteke and two wide players playing out of position. 4-2-3-1 gives complete freedom to the player playing in the hole in front of double pivot. I haven't come up with a magic formula, it's just the basic nature of a 4-2-3-1. Double pivot doesn't mean defensive. In fact it allows one pivot to be a deep lying play-maker, making the formation even more attacking.

Offline pjshaun

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Re: Round Table: Manchester United 3 Liverpool (lucky to get) 1
« Reply #50 on: September 15, 2015, 02:08:35 pm »
Can this post go on the front page please.

This forum has become generally ridiculous to read in places - the West Ham reviews, the Manc reviews, the I.D for flags stuff etc..Agreed, all is clearly not roses, but bloody hell.

This single post from Corkboy has just stopped me from deleting my account and picking up a Tranmere ST. Just to know I am not the only one thinking exactly the same as he has posted here (admittedly there was a post from someone called killerheels that I read on Sunday that also demonstrated a welcome level of consideration before posting)

I know this post is not expected content for this thread, but I have nowhere else to write this. Perhaps a Mod with a level head could post a thread that would allow for a discussion that might try to inform those more trigger happy posters of the complexities of the LFC team/brand/business and try to stem the flow of excruciatingly ill-informed, divisive rubbish that is being typed into this forum. It is not our god given right that we win every week and publicly wingeing/moaning/swearing about it will only enhance the chances of that not happening. Yes, we have expectations of the club, but we should also have expectations of ourselves - we are all on the same side.

It's post like these that are knee-jerk if anything.

Can I suggest you to go and have a read in Arsenal's round table thread? People were full of praise of our players, manager and tactics even though we didn't win that game. People were happy because we really performed well in that first half and we saw progress from the previous two games. The West Ham game and Man Utd game were polar opposite to how we played in the first half of that Arsenal game. People will post what they see. People were right to be furious of our dismal end of last season and people are right to be furious with two back-to-back performances they have never seen from a Liverpool side in their lifetime. Sure we had rough days here and there but what we just saw (and have been seeing since Man Utd defeat at home last season) is the stuff you see from a relegation fodder.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2015, 05:04:09 pm by pjshaun »

Offline Suareznumber7

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Re: Round Table: Manchester United 3 Liverpool (lucky to get) 1
« Reply #51 on: September 15, 2015, 02:19:22 pm »
1/ Our new strikers, all 3 on the pitch today. How did you rate their performances?


Benteke had a good game considering that we offer him absolutely no support.  He scored an excellent goal that got us back into the game even if for only 2 minutes.  Ings, how can you evaluate him as a striker when he was played out of position?  As a third choice striker I think he'll do well for us but only if he plays in his natural position. 

2/ With the market closed. How do we improve our ability to play out from the back this season?


Can and Sahko as our two centerbacks.  I'm not really sure that Can is best as a CM, at least not in the way that we have been playing.  He has played as a CB before, played as a RB for Germany, and is an excellent passer of the ball.  Playing at CB would give him a little more time and space to pick out good passes and get the attack started.  Sahko is clearly a better passing CB then Lovren so that' s a no brainer to me. 
3/ How much of a loss was Coutinho?

4/ Left back. Moreno or Gomez?


Depends on the opponent.  Against Arsenal away, go ahead and play Gomez as he offers better defensive ability.  Against Utd, West Ham, and any other team where we can get at the opponents it has to be Moreno.  He offers us much more going forward. 
 
5/ Would you have been happy/content with 7pts from those opening 5 fixtures before a ball was kicked.


Not really unless the performances were really good.  With the money spent we should have the players to get good results against the likes of Stoke, Bournemouth, West Ham.  9 points were the minimum requirement for me. 

Offline Suareznumber7

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Re: Round Table: Manchester United 3 Liverpool (lucky to get) 1
« Reply #52 on: September 15, 2015, 02:30:08 pm »
The idea of a double pivot has completely flown over your head. The double pivot will allow FOUR attacking players in front of them in a 4-2-3-1, instead of just THREE in the current 4-3-3/4-5-1/4-1-4-1 formation. The three center midfielders we have right now are not capable of providing meaningful contribution to our attack, which leaves us with just Benteke and two wide players playing out of position. 4-2-3-1 gives complete freedom to the player playing in the hole in front of double pivot. I haven't come up with a magic formula, it's just the basic nature of a 4-2-3-1. Double pivot doesn't mean defensive. In fact it allows one pivot to be a deep lying play-maker, making the formation even more attacking.

In a 4-3-3 you actually have 5 attacking players ahead of a single pivot.  The three CM's in a 4-3-3 would be a #6 (DM), and #8 (box to box), and a #10 (attacking mid).  The #6 would sit back and be the single pivot with the #8 getting forward to support the #10 and the Striker.  You are right that the players that we have chosen to play as the CM's are not providing any contribution to the attack but it's not because of the system.  For me, the 3 CM's that we should be using if we are going to continue to play a 4-3-3 would be Can as the #6, Hendo as the #8, and Coutinho as the #10.  I think that provides good balance in the midfield. 

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Re: Round Table: Manchester United 3 Liverpool (lucky to get) 1
« Reply #53 on: September 15, 2015, 02:45:10 pm »
In a 4-3-3 you actually have 5 attacking players ahead of a single pivot.  The three CM's in a 4-3-3 would be a #6 (DM), and #8 (box to box), and a #10 (attacking mid).  The #6 would sit back and be the single pivot with the #8 getting forward to support the #10 and the Striker.  You are right that the players that we have chosen to play as the CM's are not providing any contribution to the attack but it's not because of the system.  For me, the 3 CM's that we should be using if we are going to continue to play a 4-3-3 would be Can as the #6, Hendo as the #8, and Coutinho as the #10.  I think that provides good balance in the midfield.
I know theoretically 4-3-3 has 5 attacking players but I was comparing our ineffective version of 4-3-3 with a 4-2-3-1 system. In any case we don't even have the players to play wide roles in a 4-2-3-1. It looks like a diamond or 3 at the back is our only option at the moment.

Offline Suareznumber7

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Re: Round Table: Manchester United 3 Liverpool (lucky to get) 1
« Reply #54 on: September 15, 2015, 03:10:45 pm »
I know theoretically 4-3-3 has 5 attacking players but I was comparing our ineffective version of 4-3-3 with a 4-2-3-1 system. In any case we don't even have the players to play wide roles in a 4-2-3-1. It looks like a diamond or 3 at the back is our only option at the moment.

Based on the players that we currently have, I would think that the 4-4-2 diamond midfield would be our best option. 

Offline tarentheara

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Re: Round Table: Manchester United 3 Liverpool (lucky to get) 1
« Reply #55 on: September 15, 2015, 03:38:34 pm »
I think 4-4-2 with diamond suits our squad and fits our best 11, however we are left with a similar problem we face now with very little width. We would have to have Sturridge coming in from either side to allow us that bit of width. I think personally Rodgers wants to play the 3-5-2 and I only seeing it working with Clyne down the right and Milner down the left leaving Can and Hendo in the middle.

Offline Penfold78

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Re: Round Table: Manchester United 3 Liverpool (lucky to get) 1
« Reply #56 on: September 15, 2015, 08:05:17 pm »
I would like to add another question for debate if anyone's interested.

6/ Arsenal first half we were great, coming from two back-to-back good results. Man United first half we were very scared, coming from a devastating home defeat against a vastly inferior opponent. Is this is a confidence thing with players? Are they mentally fragile? Do we always need few experienced, leaders, 'won't take shit' kind of guys in the starting eleven for this reason?

 This is the priority question. A good answer won't come from me. My football knowledge doesn't even scratch the sides and the highlights of the Man Utd game don't give me many clues. I'd love thoughts on this question and some similar ones.....

 What made us so self assured when we played Arsenal yet so anxious against Man Utd?

 Why do newcomers to our side look so good and then fade?

 Which players do opposition teams fear because of their physicality or aggression?

 Do we deploy technical pressing as a preference to assertive pressing (elbows, ribs & plenty of verbal barracking) and what difference would it make?

 Are we over coached and under motivated?

 Why was Rogers able to take so many points off teams with a very technical, not very aggressive Swansea team? Were other teams less motivated to beat them?

Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Round Table: Manchester United 3 Liverpool (lucky to get) 1
« Reply #57 on: September 15, 2015, 08:17:28 pm »
Performance flatter than Twiggys breasts, no passion, no formation, no thought, appeared like a team playing it off the cuff and badly executing it, he was badly let down by all the team and the team was badly let down by Rodgers, and the fans were badly let down by both,  i can't think of one player that did his job well and even Benteke's goal had no place in that performance great though it was it was totally out of context to the game itself.
First goal for them well conceived but nothing original about it, second came because of the panic with the first going in, third by their young lad had our defence making him look like Messi we parted like the nile for him.

The fact was they didn't play well but to beat us they didn't have to play well.

thought for the next game pick Sakho, play Firmino just behind or alongside Benteke, ditch the 4-3-3 or 4-5-1 and go with a straight 4-4-2/ 4-4-1-1
« Last Edit: September 15, 2015, 08:19:08 pm by Mutton Geoff »
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Offline markedasred

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Re: Round Table: Manchester United 3 Liverpool (lucky to get) 1
« Reply #58 on: September 15, 2015, 08:46:04 pm »
This is the priority question. A good answer won't come from me. My football knowledge doesn't even scratch the sides and the highlights of the Man Utd game don't give me many clues. I'd love thoughts on this question and some similar ones.....

 What made us so self assured when we played Arsenal yet so anxious against Man Utd?

 Why do newcomers to our side look so good and then fade?

 Which players do opposition teams fear because of their physicality or aggression?

 Do we deploy technical pressing as a preference to assertive pressing (elbows, ribs & plenty of verbal barracking) and what difference would it make?

 Are we over coached and under motivated?

 Why was Rogers able to take so many points off teams with a very technical, not very aggressive Swansea team? Were other teams less motivated to beat them?

A general response to your negative point: maybe because we had our three best players unavailable, and six new players in the team? Would the look good then fade have something to do with being out of position because of reply 1 I made? Two short factual answers, plus have a look at the table end of October. Brendan is not going anywhere, and things will get back to normal soon I suspect. Afew wins and the confidence they give will make a world of difference I suspect. Straight after the match I was edging towards joining the angry mob, now I've had a few sleeps I can see reason again. We have good players and a good manager, who are having a bad September.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2015, 08:48:22 pm by markedasred »
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Re: Round Table: Manchester United 3 Liverpool (lucky to get) 1
« Reply #59 on: September 15, 2015, 08:55:29 pm »
A general response to your negative point: maybe because we had our three best players unavailable, and six new players in the team? Would the look good then fade have something to do with being out of position because of reply 1 I made? Two short factual answers, plus have a look at the table end of October. Brendan is not going anywhere, and things will get back to normal soon I suspect. Afew wins and the confidence they give will make a world of difference I suspect. Straight after the match I was edging towards joining the angry mob, now I've had a few sleeps I can see reason again. We have good players and a good manager, who are having a bad September.

The only change from the Arsenal game to the Manchester game was that Coutinho didn't play. Ings came in for him.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2015, 08:59:49 pm by Chakan »

Offline Always_A_Red

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Re: Round Table: Manchester United 3 Liverpool (lucky to get) 1
« Reply #60 on: September 15, 2015, 11:25:39 pm »
One thing that really hit home with me is how much we've changed in just under 18 months. I just cannot comprehend the amount of change that we've had in that time, considering the fact we come 2nd that year.

Literally 18 months earlier we go to OT and this is the starting lineup:

Mignolet
Johnson
Skrtel
Agger
Flanagan 
Gerrard (Lucas - 87' )
Henderson
Allen
Sterling (Coutinho - 72' )
Sturridge Booked (Iago Aspas - 92' )
Suarez

Only 2 of the starting 11 that started the game in March 2014 were in the team that wiped the floor with UTD. Just 2. Ironically, 18 months later we're bemoaning the fact that our little magician in Coutinho is injured when back then, he couldn't even get a look in.

How many of our starting line up on Saturday could get into the same lineup 18 months ago? 1? 2? 0? Its not many. When you change so many good players with average players, don't be too shocked to see the team perform at a lower level. When you take out leaders like Agger, Gerrard & Suarez replace them with losers like Lovren, Milner & Benteke/Ings then don't be too shocked to see your players go missing and hide.

We can talk tactics and positioning all day but the fact is, our squad is possibly the worst squad of players we've had in over a decade. We're toothless and gutless.

Last season we played UTD a home, again a massive game that could go a long way in helping us secure CL football. The 1st half was so bad, that it prompted a pissed off SG to go flying into a tackle to show everyone what it meant to play in a Livepool/UTD game. You would think we'd learn something from that? Perhaps know from the reaction our performance got that day it was not good enough to plod through this type of game?! Maybe we should put the record straight and show the world that we have got heart, that we will fight, get in their faces and make it difficult for them? We owe that to the fans at least! Did we do that? No. We served up another abject, toothless performance against a very poor UTD team which basically said 'we don't believe we can win, so we'll take a draw'.

Liverpool exists to with games and to win trophies, not to exist to get 18 points from the last 15 PL games playing turgid, scared football. Neither to turn up to OT to play for a 0-0. This is Liverpool Football Club ffs! I don't care who the players are, what their names are, how much they are paid. If they cannot get themselves up for a Liverpool/UTD game then they can get out. Same with the manager. I've made my feelings known about his performances against the big teams before but if he cannot motivate the players and cannot set up a team to beat possibly the worst UTD team in 15 years, then he's not the right man for us. At least have a fucking go. Don't serve us that and then say afterwards that you're lucky that you 'have an honest bunch of players that will learn and try to put things right'. We don't want a bunch of honest losers Brendan, we want winners with heart.   

I wasn't angy at the game because sadly I think most of us there knew our fate, but im angry at not being angry at losing 3-1 to our biggest rivals. Im angry at people shrugging it off as another one of those results or suggesting that because its 'only 5 games in' that we should allow it. Im angry that in the space of 18 months we've gone from being one of the most exciting teams in Europe to one of the most dullest, ineffective sides in Europe. We sit 53rd in Uefa co-efficient rankings! 53rd! And yet we seem happy to allow our team to plod along into mediocrity. Im angry that we seem happy to do this spare the feelings of players, manager and senior management staff who are failing more than a chocolate kettle. Something has to change. Something has to happen to stop the rot because for a club like Liverpool Football Club we should expect much, much more.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2015, 11:35:14 pm by Always_A_Red »
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Offline Gnurglan

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Re: Round Table: Manchester United 3 Liverpool (lucky to get) 1
« Reply #61 on: September 15, 2015, 11:53:56 pm »
I would like to add another question for debate if anyone's interested.

6/ Arsenal first half we were great, coming from two back-to-back good results. Man United first half we were very scared, coming from a devastating home defeat against a vastly inferior opponent. Is this is a confidence thing with players? Are they mentally fragile? Do we always need few experienced, leaders, 'won't take shit' kind of guys in the starting eleven for this reason?

Don't think we are mentally fragile, but it's not a naturally strong area for us. We could do with some more leaders. When I say leader, I mean that anyone can lead. You play your game, do your task and you do it well. That way the team can rely on you. Benteke for example, was more of a leader vs United than Ings or Firmino. Even if he wasn't a typical captain.
If we speak captains, then we have lost a lot of that leadership in recent years. Right now, I honestly don't think we have any real captain in the squad. None that I have seen at least.

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Re: Round Table: Manchester United 3 Liverpool (lucky to get) 1
« Reply #62 on: September 15, 2015, 11:54:07 pm »
Johnson and Aspas were shite, Agger and Gerrard were past it and Sterling and Suarez wanted bigger things than we can offer post Gillete and Hicks.

The rest of the players are still here. 8 of them and some have improved since then. Add Sakho, Benteke, Milner, Clyne, Can and Firmino to that also,

It's a strong side it should be finishing top 4 or certainly close and it's still on course contrary to the knee jerking on here.
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Re: Round Table: Manchester United 3 Liverpool (lucky to get) 1
« Reply #63 on: September 16, 2015, 01:51:05 am »
New super slo-mo footage from the game, min 84 revealed this very brief but interesting moment just as the ball comes in:



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Offline wordroam

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Re: Round Table: Manchester United 3 Liverpool (lucky to get) 1
« Reply #64 on: September 16, 2015, 02:06:12 am »
The biggest disappointment for me in that game was that we looked for all the world like we were just waiting on Utd to score before we started to play. And that's happened far too often. The problem is, we don't have it in us to  come back from that.
That to me is one of 2 things
1) We don't have the mental strength amongst the players to assume control of a game from the off, to "boss" games if you like, or get back into games
2) Its instructions from the manager than we play a containing game and gradually grow into games like this.

Either of those are not good enough, I could understand the second one, if we had the organisation to do that kind of things. We seen Chelsea do that a lot over the years, but we don't. Its bloody annoying and all. As is the nervousness in our players, and I put a lot of that on Mignolet. He's a decent keeper, but he spreads nervousness.

It was a very damning defeat. We had the opportunity to take the game to Utd and we failed miserably.
I had high hopes that Rodgers would get us going again this season, and he may yet. It's been used a lot, but the next game against Norwich for me will be the definitive games in Rodgers reign. Not only do we need a win, but we need a convincing performance to go with it.
The ideal scenario for me would be for Norwich to score early as West Ham did, and for us to come back and steam roll them.
We need to lay that demon to rest or it will destroy us.

Well its obviously got to be 2. as we clearly had it in us to get back in the game. For one thing we actually created decent chances in the second half.

However,, just to slightly contradict, what I remember from BR's first season is that he pushed the players out of their comfort zone. Yes they got the hang of it but anybody remember that nervy 'pass it out the back' period ? Its almost like this time he's compromised on his 'balls out play with confidence' principles and has allowed them a safety zone to build from.

Offline LiamG

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Re: Round Table: Manchester United 3 Liverpool (lucky to get) 1
« Reply #65 on: September 16, 2015, 08:25:58 am »
We missed Coutinho but we also had another brazilian playing who could of opened them up, but he was wasted out on right midfield/wingback

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Re: Round Table: Manchester United 3 Liverpool (lucky to get) 1
« Reply #66 on: September 16, 2015, 08:28:04 am »
I am no set piece or tactical expert but i dont understand what happened on Blind's goal. There were 5 guys marking on the edge of the 6 yard box and then Milner drops in to make it 6 to mark Felliani and 2 more Utd players. Surely on numbers alone the players would know that seems odd?

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Re: Round Table: Manchester United 3 Liverpool (lucky to get) 1
« Reply #67 on: September 16, 2015, 09:23:26 am »
Don't think we are mentally fragile, but it's not a naturally strong area for us. We could do with some more leaders. When I say leader, I mean that anyone can lead. You play your game, do your task and you do it well. That way the team can rely on you. Benteke for example, was more of a leader vs United than Ings or Firmino. Even if he wasn't a typical captain.
If we speak captains, then we have lost a lot of that leadership in recent years. Right now, I honestly don't think we have any real captain in the squad. None that I have seen at least.
Well this is important. If we had leaders on the pitch, surely someone would have spotted something strange on the Man Utd free-kick which led to the goal? I understand all set-pieces are planned for each game in advance but surely players can sometimes take responsibility if they spot something wrong on the pitch? Someone like Carra would never have let opposition players completely free on a set-piece.

I have to applaud Man United for the creativity on that set-piece as well. I think it was only after realizing our set-up, they decided to play that trick. Looking back at the free-kick, this was our set-up:

- We had two players in the wall.
- Two were double man marking Fellaini (one tight, one loose).
- Three were defending zonally in the six yard box.
- One was marking zonally just outside the six yard box but within the penalty area.
- One was man marking outside the six yard box but within the penalty area.

So we had TEN players (nine outfield players + Mignolet) inside the box defending that set-piece. Surely at least one player could have moved from the zone to man mark one of their free players? I don't know how flexible our players are allowed to be on set-pieces but I think the goal could have been prevented with little bit of common sense.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2015, 09:25:21 am by pjshaun »

Offline TSC

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Re: Round Table: Manchester United 3 Liverpool (lucky to get) 1
« Reply #68 on: September 16, 2015, 09:26:28 am »
A general response to your negative point: maybe because we had our three best players unavailable, and six new players in the team? Would the look good then fade have something to do with being out of position because of reply 1 I made? Two short factual answers, plus have a look at the table end of October. Brendan is not going anywhere, and things will get back to normal soon I suspect. Afew wins and the confidence they give will make a world of difference I suspect. Straight after the match I was edging towards joining the angry mob, now I've had a few sleeps I can see reason again. We have good players and a good manager, who are having a bad September.

Not really the thread for this debate but just to say it's not merely about the seeming lack of basic footballing technical ability across all areas of the pitch it was the apparent lack of fight, will to win, call it what you wish.  It was meek acceptance of another defeat, rolling over if you like, made worse from a support point of view because it was against UTD.

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Re: Round Table: Manchester United 3 Liverpool (lucky to get) 1
« Reply #69 on: September 16, 2015, 09:30:24 am »
I am no set piece or tactical expert but i dont understand what happened on Blind's goal. There were 5 guys marking on the edge of the 6 yard box and then Milner drops in to make it 6 to mark Felliani and 2 more Utd players. Surely on numbers alone the players would know that seems odd?

what was odd was that as soon as Young ran over the ball it was clear it was not going to be a whipped in-swinger, simply because the remaining taker was shaped to hit it left footed.  And it made no sense to hit an out-swinger high from that angle.  So there was a period of a couple of seconds where we should have reacted.  No-one did.  Milner eventually switched on but only after the free had been taken.

Why we were lined up like we were even before the kick was taken is also another point entirely.  A line of 5/6 marking 2?  Bizarre.

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Re: Round Table: Manchester United 3 Liverpool (lucky to get) 1
« Reply #70 on: September 16, 2015, 09:37:59 am »
1/ Our new strikers, all 3 on the pitch today. How did you rate their performances?

Benteke was outstanding for his goal. His strength and trickery were there to for all to see but once again we succeeded in isolating him.
Firmino and Ings both struggled in their winger roles. I think the experiment of lets play players out of their preferred role/position time and again has clearly failed - Ings, Firmino, Balotelli, Lallana, Markovic etc. etc. Time for us to stop making weird experiments in the business end of the pitch.

2/ With the market closed. How do we improve our ability to play out from the back this season?

Skrtel is hopelessly out of form. I think he should be dropped. We should stop playing Gomez at LB. We should stop expecting Mignolet to suddenly improve. Lets face it, he isn't good enough at all, so we need to minimise the possible blunders he'll make and maximise on his strengths which is shot stopping.

3/ How much of a loss was Coutinho?

Not sure it would have mattered to be honest. We didn't press them hard enough or make them work hard in midfield at all. For our all strength, power and energy with Milner, Lucas and Can, we were completely outmuscled in midfield. We don't work hard enough off the ball, and give the ball away cheaply when we have it. Both of these are recipes for failure.

4/ Left back. Moreno or Gomez?

Moreno is the only left back we have (unless you count Enrique, who's been marginalised). Gomez has not played PL football in ANY position, let alone one that he is unfamiliar with. What a stupid thing to do, to send a young debutant into the premier league in a role he isn't comfortable with. Not surprisingly, his mistakes have led to goals. Noone will blame the young lad because an 18y inexperienced defender would be expected to make exactly those errors. Not good enough.

5/ Would you have been happy/content with 7pts from those opening 5 fixtures before a ball was kicked.

It's far too early in the season to focus on points and positions. We need to be looking at our performance level. Quite frankly, our performance level leaves a lot to be desired. In 10 halves of football, we've seen 1 half of pretty good play and 9 halves of performance that won't bring us into the top 4. We need to up our performance level sharpish, or else we'll continue to take the same points from games and find ourselves mid table by Xmas or so, from which point the damage will be done.

We need a quick change in attitude. All I've seen is some overly cautious displays where we look to play for a draw. We are LFC and have spent enough money that we should be going out to look for 3 points regardless of whether we have a player or 2 injured, or suspended etc. We need to start becoming a bit fearless and translate that into producing energetic, daring displays for the whole 90 minutes. So far, we have a bunch of players just going through the motions. Some of them need a rocket up the arse quite frankly. It hasn't been anywhere good enough.

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Re: Round Table: Manchester United 3 Liverpool (lucky to get) 1
« Reply #71 on: September 16, 2015, 11:18:05 am »
I am no set piece or tactical expert but i dont understand what happened on Blind's goal. There were 5 guys marking on the edge of the 6 yard box and then Milner drops in to make it 6 to mark Felliani and 2 more Utd players. Surely on numbers alone the players would know that seems odd?
The issue is that it's obviously been prepared for them to line up like that. One zonal line of five (Skrtel ends up marking Fellaini simply because he's within his zone, in front of him, rather than actually being assigned to mark him), Milner also marking zonal in front and Clyne marking Schweinsteiger (I'd guess because he's the closest short option to the ball rather than actually being assigned to mark Schweinsteiger).

Now, you could argue that players should react to the fact that Blind is on the edge of the area and there's a very clear possibility that the ball will be cutback - I mean I thought it was pretty obvious that's what was going to happen as soon as Mata was around the ball. The problem is if you've been told to set up in a certain way from wide free kicks in a certain area, it's very difficult to suddenly go out and mark the guy on the edge of the box and to make that clear to everyone around you. If Milner goes then it only takes Clyne to follow the decoy run and then there's a load of space in front of the line of five. If Clyne goes then no one's getting out to Schweinsteiger. If one of the zonal line of five goes then you're taking away one of your best headers and the other four have to very quickly react to fill the space before the free kick comes in. Considering all that, I'm relatively sympathetic to the players in this scenario, even if they should get out quicker.

Other than that, I think this is simply a weakness of setting up in one line of zonal from a wide free kick close to goal. When free kicks are deeper on the flank, one line of zonal works well. When they're that high up, the cutback is always on. At the same time, full man marking that close only requires one block or one man to get beaten and there'll be a good chance on goal. Personally, I'd prefer having two zonal lines from that sort of position, possibly two lines of four (retaining the two men in the wall), possibly one line of four and one line of three (the deepest line with four and the front line with three), with one player on the edge of the area. I think that sort of setup deals better with this sort of free kick close to goal and is probably simpler to put into effect as well.
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Re: Round Table: Manchester United 3 Liverpool (lucky to get) 1
« Reply #72 on: September 16, 2015, 11:34:10 am »
Edited, put in a more suitable thread.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2015, 12:01:17 pm by LFC4LIFENET »
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