Topic: Mentality and Leadership

[Groundskeeper Willie]

You mention Lucas as not having any fight? He's the only one that has come in and actually played well.. Then subsequently dropped for the captain/vice captain who are both completely out of form.. Leadership comes from above and our Manager isn't giving you anything, why would players run through a brick wall for him when they get dropped and frozen out for his favourites.  Why would;

Manquillo try his hardest in his brief cameos? Irrespective of how well he plays he is dropped for Johnson - a player we aren't even offering a contract.
Why would Borini (a player Rodgers himself wanted as a primary target) try his hardest in training as it's clearly evident he isn't getting into the squad.
Sakho plays 3 games in a row and we conceed 1 goal in that time.. Lovren regains fitness and Sakho is subsequently dropped for the Everton game - then he storms out. I'd be fucking livid if I got dropped for Lovren after starting to build a partnership and some sense of solidarity at the back.

The list is endless.

Rodgers has surrounded himself with a core of  "old guard" players in a power play attempt v's the committee, it won't end well. There is no other reason for the marginalisation of the likes of Can, Manquillo etc.

Sorry it's an eloquent post, but pointing in all the wrong directions.

Some excellent points from Breakfast with Percy (why doesn't he post btw?) Rodgers got his first choice targets - Borini, Allen and said no to Sturridge as he wanted Dempsey.. This then meant he probably got overruled the next windows - hence Coutinho/Sturridge coming in etc.. On the back of a good season he got more say - and in come Lovren, Lallana etc. There is a reason he is being fought by the committee - his judgement on players is terrible.

Good post.

[surfer. Fuck you generator.]

Leadership can be about experience, and not being blow away, or letting you head go, but being consistent. Lucas is that. No matter the opposition, good or bad, he does what he believes is required. Finnan did the same, as did Dennis Irwin. Arbie, and Agger, Kuyt and Aureilo. No hiding or fancy shit, just do the job a hand with losing the head or being blow away.

I never understood the captain fantastic thing that people labelled on Gerrard or others. His job on the pitch was to do the irregular, the magic, because he could. It's not leadership, being able to smash the ball from 35 yards, its talent. When you are going out to play Stoke, knowing the team is playing shit and you need to keep a lid on the other teams supporters, and help keep the younger members of squad in the game. Thats leadership. Getting 7 points from 9 when you are slipping down the table, after being phased out and left out of the squad, thats leadership. Being told at 34 after not playing for a while that you are facing the Mancs at Old trafford in a title race and going out and being a rock. Thats leadership. And cast iron balls. 

Wonderful post.

Reading a lot of versions of 'leadership' on here, I would wager not all that many have actually had to do it.

There is nothing magical or 'extra' about it, it is rooted in the practical world. Be good at what you do. Whatever the circumstances, do not break. The end. The rest follows, depending on just how much you want to help others / are social. But the first 2 aspects are non negotiable to be a reference point for a group. You can see this dynamic at work from the mechanic's workshop to a football pitch or a company.

Can people look at the regulars in the team this season and pick out players who have fulfilled both aspects, consistently, this season?

I can't think of one standout, and the closest that come are Kolo, Lucas, who haven't been regulars.

[Floydy]

Lucas is a beaut... we need more like him for sure!

The relevance of the Rafa reference is, he seemed to prioritise leadership, sometimes over absolute top level talent, and hey, we achieved!

We had some AMAZING leaders during his time - Sami, Xabi, Agger, Carra, Lucas, Masch, Kuyt, Reina... natural captains every one of them.

I think that was a nice mix with the more enigmatic leadership style of Gerrard.

Gerrard is more mature now, and I think more comfortable with what it means to be a leader, but his style can always do with more leaders on the pitch.

Lovren and Skrtel feel like they should have it, and even Glen has shown some real courage this season. But there's something else there that is causing them to underperform massively and kind of invalidate their leadership claims.

Personally I reckon Emre Can is the man but until he plays it's hard to know

good post. I always remember making the observation that he signed captains back in the day.
The list goes on Robbie Keane, Torres, Zenden, Pelegrino,Fowler, Soto  and the ones that got away , Simao, Alves.

[Mutton Geoff]

I'm questioning how motivated these players are of playing for Liverpool. How willing they are to sacrifice themselves and to leave everything out on the pitch.

In the case of Lucas, he's someone who was shopped around Europe all Summer and then was left out in the cold for a few months. That's after 7 years of loyal service. If I was him, I would be feeling a myriad of emotions towards the manager and club.

Brentie your posts have been brilliant recently, this is another thought provoking one,

So in reply Lucas i feel is too much of a professional to allow any possible negative feeling towards the boss affect his game, he is for me a consumate professional with us.

As for the rest modern footballers kiss the badge but at times i think dont play for the badge, some go missing in games in all the clubs, they have too much money and power within a club and this leads to an attitude of we are doing you a favour playing here. I might be tarring them with a large brush but when i see the same players make the same casual mistakes game after game i wonder are they too much in a comfort zone.

Maybe though i have become a judgmental auld git.

[Sangria]

I'm questioning how motivated these players are of playing for Liverpool. How willing they are to sacrifice themselves and to leave everything out on the pitch.

In the case of Lucas, he's someone who was shopped around Europe all Summer and then was left out in the cold for a few months. That's after 7 years of loyal service. If I was him, I would be feeling a myriad of emotions towards the manager and club.

But you're not him. He's already shown that, in a situation where every other player on the pitch was looking out for their own future, he was still following the manager's instructions to the bitter end. He, more than any other of our players, deserves to be clean of any suspicions of self interest to the detriment of the club.

[Sangria]

Brentie your posts have been brilliant recently, this is another thought provoking one,

So in reply Lucas i feel is too much of a professional to allow any possible negative feeling towards the boss affect his game, he is for me a consumate professional with us.

As for the rest modern footballers kiss the badge but at times i think dont play for the badge, some go missing in games in all the clubs, they have too much money and power within a club and this leads to an attitude of we are doing you a favour playing here. I might be tarring them with a large brush but when i see the same players make the same casual mistakes game after game i wonder are they too much in a comfort zone.

Maybe though i have become a judgmental auld git.

For Lucas, the manager is the boss, to be followed without question or doubt, until such a time when he is no longer the manager. Fuck supposed nebulous stuff like leadership where it's something that can't be defined, but whatever it is, Lucas by definition doesn't have it. If everyone at the club was as loyal to the manager as Lucas has shown himself to be, we'd have a few more than 18.

[Gnurglan]

I rate Lucas highly as a DM nothing fancy just gets his head down keeps things simple breaking up play and linking defence with midfield, dropping Lucas is a mistake. I just don't think Brendan rates him or thinks a DM suits his footballing philosophy which is ludicrous because nearly every successful team has a DM of some sort. It honestly had me pulling my hair out when he was dropped for Allen, just no logic in that decision  at all.

That's how I see it. The work Lucas does is underrated. It looks so simple, but it's not. He's very rarely under pressure, he gets the ball to the right address, he plays it forward (as opposed to just sideways). We won't get the wonderful crosses or the genious throughballs, but when we play Lucas, I know what we get. And this is the kind of leadership all players could offer. Do your job well. It doesn't have to be fancy, just do it well, so people can trust you and rely on you.

[Maggie May]

Fucking ace thread.  Please keep it going.   

[scumbagcollege]

Lucas's attitude and performance after he took the figurative smack in the face of being snubbed for the captaincy v Middlesbro (Ricky Lambert & Toure being awarded the honour in that game!) and being bombed out of the squad completely prior to that, is an example of mentality and leadership to all our players. If all our back 6 players had his attributes, our shit defending would be no more! 

[Redman0151]

I remember being at the Boro game and seeing Lucas go crazy after we scored pens, trying to get the crowd up at times. Can never question his commitment

[Peabee]

I remember being at the Boro game and seeing Lucas go crazy after we scored pens, trying to get the crowd up at times. Can never question his commitment

He was whipping up the players beforehand also, and screaming encouragement to Mignolet.  No-one should question his mentality nor commitment.   

I also think it's too easy to start accusing players of being weak, lacking leadership, etc.   Does anyone actually believe we could manage to assemble a squad of professional, competitive athletes, with no leader and all lacking the mentality?  That would take some doing.  I'd say there'd be very few players who make it to this level with a weak mentality, unless they have exceptional gifts that outweigh those weaknesses.  If you think of how few academy players make it to the first team, and before that, the few that make it into academies or youth teams...  I remember the Gerrard documentary, where he said plenty of lads that he played with had more talent than him, but they didn't put the work in.  Surely it is all character building and most of those with the wrong mentality will drop out before reaching the top.

[LiverBirdKop]

But you're not him. He's already shown that, in a situation where every other player on the pitch was looking out for their own future, he was still following the manager's instructions to the bitter end. He, more than any other of our players, deserves to be clean of any suspicions of self interest to the detriment of the club.

I agree. He has been as loyal as they come for us. Wish we could bring him back once his playing days are over because he's an excellent reader of the game and that is hard to both learn and teach. Not to mention loyalty.

[jDJ]

It's amazing how good everyone says the spirit is when you're winning and how terrible it all is when you're on a bad run.  Could you honestly say our players hid against United?  i don't think they did at all, not even when 3-0 down, game over and being mocked and jeered by their fans.  We concentrate on character and bravery and all that absolute sh1te far too much in this country.  If a british bulldog spirit is such an important element of football then why don't wales and scotland ever qualify for major championships, why are England so utterly rubbish at international football.  The reason is technique, quality, tactics, etc.  Continental managers are shocked when they arrive in England and all they're ever asked about after a defeat is whether their players "wanted it enough", rather than being questioned on their tactical approach to the game.  I'm not saying it's not important, clearly approaching sport with the right mentality is important and confidence makes anyone at any level play better but confidence comes from winning games, you can't artificially create it.  Reaching near the pinnacle of your sport and that's what playing for a top premier league club is can't be achieved without having a great attitude and you'd be hard pressed to find a single player in our squad, let alone several who don't understand what they need to do when they cross the white line in terms of commitment.  The players are desperate to put it right.  Unfortunately, the reasons for our travails are a little more complicated.  Tactically we're  far from perfect, we have issues in defensive midfield, and in defence and the biggest problem of all is we don't have a single striker which is suited to playing with the 10 players behind him.  None of that will be solved by rolling our sleeves up unfortunately.

[Fromola]

I remember being at the Boro game and seeing Lucas go crazy after we scored pens, trying to get the crowd up at times. Can never question his commitment

Lucas and Toure both. I said that night that you can't question those two when it comes to leadership but it took ages for them to get a shot in the team. Don't forget as well Toure was allowed to leave for nothing to Turkey and chose not to go. Lucas was told he could go.

We could easily have lost these two as well over the summer. Add to obviously Suarez leaving, Agger being let go and Reina being treated like a leper returning from Napoli and it's almost by design that we're so lacking in leaders and character. We get rid of them all.

[Mutton Geoff]

Lucas has always conducted himself well on and off the pitch, he is the ultimate professional, who sometimes doesn't get the credit or selections he merits.
Right now he would be the first name on the team sheet for me, followed by Sakho

[SerbianScouser]

It`s very interesting that a player who was benched in Rodgers` first season because we lacked `leadership and organizational skills` is now a focal point of our 3 man defence.

Rodgers rightly so noticed back then that we had no one instructing people, berating ones who make mistakes and picked Carra from the bench to instill back some leadership qualities. Then when Carra retired with Sakho as a new player and Agger with injury problems Rodgers dipped into the market in the search of a new Carra a new leader. Unfortunately he got it horribly wrong with Lovren who regardless of the idea that in theory he does things that we need he simply doesn`t do them very well.

So what does this all tell you about our 29-year old CB who`s with us 7 years now. Why would Rodgers bench him and then openly state he needs a leader in his defence all the while having such experienced player in his rearguard? I think it`s very clear - Skrtel is simply someone who defends individually, on his own accord without much regard to whether we defend as an unit or not. Last season we picked Sakho to play next to him, this season Lovren and we struggled as a defensive unit to reach LFC`s standards.

Skrtel was able to look semi-competent alongside the leaders of men that were Hyypia, Carragher, Agger but now that he is supposed to be taking the mantle over and helping this new guys out to settle in our defence it`s simply not happening because it`s crystal clear he needs to be led still to this day rather than organize or instruct people around him.

That`s why I think people need to have this in mind if they want to criticize someone like Sakho in particular as you need to understand he`s defending next to a guy who is 3rd in the league in the number of clearances. It tells you he`s perfectly happy to drag us back to the 6-yard box where he can do his favorite thing next to slide tackles which is to twat the ball upfield. That`s mediocre mentality kind of approach to defending and LFC as a juggernaut deserves kind of defending that is based on trying to dominate opponents rather than defending deep and twatting the ball away.

[sgt bilbo]

Last year was a one off, we had the best player in the world at that time playing for us and showed leadership to the rest of the squad, they looked up to

him and went with him raising their games to a different level and nearly won us the title. It was his never give in mentality that inspired others, much

like Stevie has done for years and years, (think about that when questioning his mentality and leadership). Would we have won the title if Carra was still

in the squad you fucking bet we would have, he would have been shouting, pushing, pulling the defence to the title we should have won. Do I blame

current players for our current form ?  No, that has to be left at the managers door, we had money to spend and while I get the buying for the future is

needed we still needed a big player for now, someone the rest of the team can look at and take confidence from, a top top player. I like Rodgers but have

said it before that he has to get it right in the transfer market and this will make or break his time with the club. The new players are to young

to be natural leaders but this will come in time.

[Yorkykopite]

What a strange Opening Post.

Clearly not everything's right with the team. Compared with last season things are pretty miserable and anti-climactic. But there are some incredible statements made in the post and some fantastic exaggerations.

This is particularly interesting....

It’s in direct contrast to last season. A huge part of our success last year was due to a fighting mentality. We had a bunch of players who were frustrated for myriad of reasons and who all harnessed those feelings to the good of their game.

We had Daniel Sturridge wanting to show the world he was a world class talent. Raheem Sterling wanted to prove he belonged at this level. Philippe Coutinho who wanted to get into the Brazil world cup squad. Steven Gerrard trying to complete his trophy set. Martin Skrtel wanting to show Rodgers how fucking silly he was to try to get rid of him. Jon Flanagan, trying to show the world how silly they were for discounting him. And on, and on…

It's an easy thing to compare this season with last and conclude that none of the players cares anymore. But there was something in your whiny tone that made me want to check what you really thought about the team last year - not the team that came second after a brilliant string of performances in the New Year, but the team that struggled against the likes of Hull City and Southampton.

In October, after the first ten games or so, you made an interesting observation:

"Quite simply, there is not enough goals in this team."

It could be argued that you were wrong about that.

Over a month later, towards the end of November you said this about Gerrard and Sturridge:

"Both players put England and their personal ambitions before the football club's. Should have both been benched. At least Sturridge actually may think he has to fight for his place in the squad. Gerrard has no excuse."

To be fair to you, I've heard many Liverpool supporters complain about international duty - or at least international duty with England. But it smacks of hypocrisy to applaud the fact - as you now do - that our players played well last season because they were trying to press their claims for the World Cup. 

Finally, this from December, almost exactly 12 months ago:

"The killer is, I'm not shocked. I don't rate Jordan Henderson or Raheem Sterling. I don't think Victor Moses is particularly good. I've felt for a while that Gerrard and Lucas don't work together. Flanagan on the left will seldom offer any attacking threat. The only reason I felt we may get 3 points is if Suarez was on fire.

Just don't have the squad for top 4. Simple as that."

I suggest that you simply weren't a happy bunny last season until the players made it easy for you by winning all the time. That team eventually went on to defy your gloomy predictions. They not only had goals in them; they scored over 100 of them. They not only qualified for the top 4, they very nearly won the Title.

I don't expect anyone to be as happy this season as they were last season. That would be mad. But I expect people to recall how they actually felt last season when things weren't going too well. And I also expect them to take heart from last season, knowing that we have the same coach at the helm, rather than cast it aside so quickly - and indeed use it as a stick, as you're now doing, to beat the players (who, it turns out, you never much rated anyway).

[Halcyon Lissome]

I suggest that you simply weren't a happy bunny last season until the players made it easy for you by winning all the time. That team eventually went on to defy your gloomy predictions. They not only had goals in them; they scored over 100 of them. They not only qualified for the top 4, they very nearly won the Title.

I don't expect anyone to be as happy this season as they were last season. That would be mad. But I expect people to recall how they actually felt last season when things weren't going too well. And I also expect them to take heart from last season, knowing that we have the same coach at the helm, rather than cast it aside so quickly - and indeed use it as a stick, as you're now doing, to beat the players (who, it turns out, you never much rated anyway).

This is a fine post, and unfortunately too rare on this forum.

The gist of it reminds me of a certain quote by Twain. He is talking about patriotism, but I adapt it to being a fan in general.

In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot. - Mark Twain

[SerbianScouser]

In October, after the first ten games or so, you made an interesting observation:

"Quite simply, there is not enough goals in this team."

[Rush 82]

Marked for reading in future

[Kopenhagen]

What a strange Opening Post.

Clearly not everything's right with the team. Compared with last season things are pretty miserable and anti-climactic. But there are some incredible statements made in the post and some fantastic exaggerations.

This is particularly interesting....

It's an easy thing to compare this season with last and conclude that none of the players cares anymore. But there was something in your whiny tone that made me want to check what you really thought about the team last year - not the team that came second after a brilliant string of performances in the New Year, but the team that struggled against the likes of Hull City and Southampton.

In October, after the first ten games or so, you made an interesting observation:

"Quite simply, there is not enough goals in this team."

It could be argued that you were wrong about that.

Over a month later, towards the end of November you said this about Gerrard and Sturridge:

"Both players put England and their personal ambitions before the football club's. Should have both been benched. At least Sturridge actually may think he has to fight for his place in the squad. Gerrard has no excuse."

To be fair to you, I've heard many Liverpool supporters complain about international duty - or at least international duty with England. But it smacks of hypocrisy to applaud the fact - as you now do - that our players played well last season because they were trying to press their claims for the World Cup. 

Finally, this from December, almost exactly 12 months ago:

"The killer is, I'm not shocked. I don't rate Jordan Henderson or Raheem Sterling. I don't think Victor Moses is particularly good. I've felt for a while that Gerrard and Lucas don't work together. Flanagan on the left will seldom offer any attacking threat. The only reason I felt we may get 3 points is if Suarez was on fire.

Just don't have the squad for top 4. Simple as that."

I suggest that you simply weren't a happy bunny last season until the players made it easy for you by winning all the time. That team eventually went on to defy your gloomy predictions. They not only had goals in them; they scored over 100 of them. They not only qualified for the top 4, they very nearly won the Title.

I don't expect anyone to be as happy this season as they were last season. That would be mad. But I expect people to recall how they actually felt last season when things weren't going too well. And I also expect them to take heart from last season, knowing that we have the same coach at the helm, rather than cast it aside so quickly - and indeed use it as a stick, as you're now doing, to beat the players (who, it turns out, you never much rated anyway).

Brentie the prophet. 

[SlowRap]

Anyone else impressed with Lallana's mentality? I've seen him a few times now clapping on team-mates and shouting encouragement on the pitch, love that.

[Dowling10]

What a strange Opening Post.

Clearly not everything's right with the team. Compared with last season things are pretty miserable and anti-climactic. But there are some incredible statements made in the post and some fantastic exaggerations.

This is particularly interesting....

It's an easy thing to compare this season with last and conclude that none of the players cares anymore. But there was something in your whiny tone that made me want to check what you really thought about the team last year - not the team that came second after a brilliant string of performances in the New Year, but the team that struggled against the likes of Hull City and Southampton.

In October, after the first ten games or so, you made an interesting observation:

"Quite simply, there is not enough goals in this team."

It could be argued that you were wrong about that.

Over a month later, towards the end of November you said this about Gerrard and Sturridge:

"Both players put England and their personal ambitions before the football club's. Should have both been benched. At least Sturridge actually may think he has to fight for his place in the squad. Gerrard has no excuse."

To be fair to you, I've heard many Liverpool supporters complain about international duty - or at least international duty with England. But it smacks of hypocrisy to applaud the fact - as you now do - that our players played well last season because they were trying to press their claims for the World Cup. 

Finally, this from December, almost exactly 12 months ago:

"The killer is, I'm not shocked. I don't rate Jordan Henderson or Raheem Sterling. I don't think Victor Moses is particularly good. I've felt for a while that Gerrard and Lucas don't work together. Flanagan on the left will seldom offer any attacking threat. The only reason I felt we may get 3 points is if Suarez was on fire.

Just don't have the squad for top 4. Simple as that."

I suggest that you simply weren't a happy bunny last season until the players made it easy for you by winning all the time. That team eventually went on to defy your gloomy predictions. They not only had goals in them; they scored over 100 of them. They not only qualified for the top 4, they very nearly won the Title.

I don't expect anyone to be as happy this season as they were last season. That would be mad. But I expect people to recall how they actually felt last season when things weren't going too well. And I also expect them to take heart from last season, knowing that we have the same coach at the helm, rather than cast it aside so quickly - and indeed use it as a stick, as you're now doing, to beat the players (who, it turns out, you never much rated anyway).

Well played sir, well played.

[kcbworth]

In October, after the first ten games or so, you made an interesting observation:

"Quite simply, there is not enough goals in this team."