Cowtownred, I am gone for only a few hours but I return to find you – hitherto a poster that I do not recall ever exchanging posts with – assailing me in more than one thread with numerous accusations and a position very much like geoffstrong, though to your credit you are considerably more coherent than he is. I am going to collectively call you and geoffstrong and everyone else of your ilk “the superfan” for reasons of convenience as I can’t be bothered to waste any more time to reply point by point to all of you, since it is all rather tiresome to have to make essentially the same replies over and over again and to pick through the same half-baked arguments and fallacies that pass for the superfan’s position, and in the end it is to a degree quite pointless too because the superfan does not really want to listen and does not really want to understand anyone else’s position.
You all seem determined to drown out all intelligent discussion of on pitch difficulties on this forum in the name of “supporting the manager”, so if that is what everybody here wants, then the forum deserves to endure the kind of `discussion’ that it wants, so I won’t stand in the way.
Therefore I am going to make this last reply to cowtownred and geoffstrong, and then I am going to move on from this to more interesting and fruitful things.
Firstly, a reply to the scurrilous accusations against me:-
1. geoffstrong said he is ignoring me because I am “obnoxious” and cowtownred says that I make “snidey” insults against superfans. The hypocrisy and complete lack of self-awareness and total self-deception that is contained in this accusation against me is breathtaking. Any objective scrolling through all the exchanges between me and geoffstrong and other superfans would disclose that it always starts with me making a comment on an issue pertaining to deployment of personnel or style of play and pointing out the errors that were made by the management. The superfans would then swoop in with numerous accusations and name-calling (I have been called self-important, not acting as a fan, negative, and much more - cowtownred even called me a "f*king balloon"...) and they would then accuse me of various improper motives against Dalglish and allegedly wanting to get him sacked. I would be mocked in various ways, satirized, my true position distorted beyond recognition, etc. Ad hominem attacks would be the order of the day. In other words, it always starts with me trying to focus on the issues and ends with others becoming personal and making personal ttacks against me. After that, I would then reply pointing out the fallacies and the errors made by the superfans and why they have misconstrued me, and I would frequently return at them with the same kind of scorn that they had subjected me to without any provocation. So if there is anyone obnoxious or making snidey insults, then I have been the one sinned against a great many times, and by the very people who now accuse me of being snidey! And if I have insulted geoffstrong, he has certainly richly deserved every one of those insults!
And by the way cowtownred, I call you and your ilk “superfans” as a term of convenience because you set yourself out as being a better fan than those of us who discuss issues. It is not an insult in itself – which is more than I can say for you lot because your kind first of all label us as disloyal and not worthy to be fans and the Sky generation etc FIRST.
But the issue of who is the one who first made it personal and made personal insults and attacks is always forgotten by you lot, because you and geoffstrong like to act as the victim when you are in fact the aggressors.
2. cowtownred, you actually descended to the depths of even accusing me of being one of the people who did the dirt on Benitez. You said “Mr subroc or his ilk helped roll the wrecking ball to Rafa. They're not going to be satisfied until it happens to Kenny Dalglish.” This is totally untrue and a vile slander against me. You don’t even bother to check your facts before you launch slanderous and untrue allegations against me. If you had even bothered to use the search function, you would have found me defending Benitez many times. I opposed his removal and I considered it catastrophic to the club at a time when many on this forum actually thought that it was necessary to “unite” the club and to heal the divisions between the supporters.
And I am sure that you will not apologise for your untrue statement and allegation against me even after I have refuted it because that is the sort of people you superfans are – I still do not have a single retraction let alone apology for all the untrue things that geoffstrong said against me despite being completely refuted and shown to be incorrect.
Lastly, here is the problem with the superfans:-
1. Extreme Polarisation
To the superfans, it is black and white – either you support the manager without a hint of any criticism, or you are calling for the manager’s head and you are a gloryhound. There can be nothing in between, and if you purport to be in between, you are a fifth columnist secretly calling for the manager’s head and having an agenda to remove him! There is a complete inability and an unwillingness to understand that there is a middle ground and another position not covered in this simplistic view of the world – where the fan can rationally and discuss problems with the team and even point out that the manager has made mistakes without wanting Dalglish to be sacked at all.
The superfan fails to understand that consistency with his own extreme position will result in a completely inane forum that is devoid of most intelligent and interesting posts as well as doing nothing to reduce the level of concern that most fans feel towards the kind of play that the team is displaying. In fact without any venue to discuss it with other fans in a calm manner, the stress goes underground and manifests itself in increased frustration with the team and the manager regardless of how supporting your conscious mind will want to be.
2. Hypocrisy & Double Standards
But the fact of the matter is that the superfans themselves do not follow their own mantra to support the manager at all times. It is apparently acceptable to criticize Roy Hodgson for his errors, but not Dalglish. The rule to support the manager at all times apparently excludes Hodgson. Why? `Because he is a tosser’ would probably be the reply. But if you set a rule, the same rule applies to all managers regardless of what you think of the manager. Otherwise you create double standards - one rule for Dalglish and other managers you like, and another rule for Hodgson and everybody else you do not like?
And it is apparently wrong to cast insults against superfans but it is perfectly allright for the superfans to start the mud slinging first.
3. No Attempt to even Understand
Both geoffstrong and you do not really read the posts that you purport to reply to. Half the time, I don’t think geoffstrong really understands the nuances of the posts he thinks he is replying to. You understand better than him, but you have the same refusal to actually comprehend what it is that your opponent is saying before responding to him. The post that you made to RedCrown where you completely misunderstood his very clear post displays this clearly.
4. Demonisation of Opponents
Because of all of the above, the superfan cannot help but get personal with whoever who is discussing the problems critically. He will attribute the most fantastic and vile motives to the other poster and feel free to drag his online name through the mud without any evidence or in defiance of the evidence.
5. Emotionalism
In the end, the superfan’s reason for not allowing such comment is because it supposedly creates an atmosphere of negativity which facilitates the manager’s removal. But the answer to mistaken ideas of the manager’s unsuitability is not to ban discussion – it is to expose error with truth. If the issue is not caused by the manager’s mistake, then disprove it with objective, calmly and well-reasoned arguments citing the facts.
But the superfan cannot do this because for him, it is antithetical to the whole point of being a fan. Geoffstrong illustrated this attitude when he criticized my “robotic” “Aristotlean” logic and argumentation, and repeatedly cites the emotional, passionate spirit of the fan as the antidote or the “correct” attitude of the fan. Redcrown pointed out that this kind of attitude is worse than religious fundamentalism – I would differ concerning that as religious fundamentalism is often very reflective and intellectual in my own experience. However, I think perhaps the quality he was trying to describe is an anti-intellectualism that is unproductive and self-defeating. And that is certainly the problem here because unless we adopt a more engineer’s or doctor’s mentality to analyse and diagnose the problem, and then to figure out the solution or medicine for the ailment, and to encourage the patient to take the medication, then how will the fans be able to even comprehend the problem? And unless we discuss it with other fans, how will we realise if we are wrong or learn a better approach?
Anyway, like I said, this forum will get the kind of discussion it deserves and it wants as far as the majority is concerned. If you want to follow the way of the superfan, then be consistent with it, but don’t be surprised if it creates far more problems than you thought.
