Author Topic: 3rd Round Table: Liverpool 5-1 Oldham  (Read 11380 times)

Offline Hinesy

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3rd Round Table: Liverpool 5-1 Oldham
« on: January 6, 2012, 10:04:02 pm »
Plaudits to Oldham and Simpson for their first goal, well taken and possible fluke but screamer all the same. At that time we looked like we were going to get another draw and be grateful for it.

So what changed for us? And how do we get Andy Carroll to stop thinking and having so much time on the ball? Instinct - great goal - two mins later, time to head in and misses it...

Downing scores too, Carragher back, Shelvey good and bad, Bellamy showed promised & I do think he blends with Gerrard who, apart from the mistaken Hollywood pass looks like he's never been away...

So onwards to the 4th round but was Kenny right to have that back 4? We'd have been in trouble with a better team... was that his idea?

Yep.

Offline Azi

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Re: 3rd Round Table: Liverpool 5-1 Oldham
« Reply #1 on: January 6, 2012, 10:30:17 pm »
going forward we looked great Bellamy and Shelvey for me were great but defensively we were poor and if its a similar side to play against city in the semi then we will get picked apart Carra and Coates were a shambles early on no communication between either was it the long lay off for both i don't know, cos they were immense against Chelsea last time they played,also i totally forgot maxi was on the pitch second half just drifted away

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Re: 3rd Round Table: Liverpool 5-1 Oldham
« Reply #2 on: January 6, 2012, 11:13:28 pm »
Kenny switched things at half time and a disjointed performance became a coherent and powerful one. Shelvey was too wide in the first half, Gerrard too deep. Gerrard deep is wasted. There's nothing particularly special about his build-up play from the back where, too often, he turns his back on the man with the ball. And Shelvey lacks the pace to play on the flank. But in the second half Bellamy went wide on the right and was phenomenal (especially with the excellent and always improving Kelly behind him). And Steven and Shelvey took it in turns to get forward from central midfield and drive beyond the man with the ball. They're both good at this. They do make the same runs - as we saw when Shelvey scored his goal by nipping in front of his skipper to collect Bellamy's cross and stick it in the Kop goal -  so I can't imagine Shelvey getting much playing time when Steven is fully fit. But the long-term prospects for Liverpool look good. Shelvey and Henderson are as bright a pair of young attacking central midfield players as exists in England. We have 'em both. That's good.

At the back though we were a shambles in the first half. Carragher is a busted flush. He's slow, he's incapable of pressing and he simply cannot move with the ball at his feet. Not even a yard. There was a dreadful moment in the first half when Coates lost possession and the Oldham centre forward then nutmegged Carragher before shooting high and wide with only Reina to beat. The fault was mainly Jamie's. He got so close to Coates that the young Uruguayan suddenly had no one to pass to. His hesitation was understandable. I'm sure he couldn't believe that an experienced international centre-back partner would make such a basic error by cutting off any passing option he might have.

Spearing continues to play ok, but nothing more than that. Too often you see him with both arms raised in the air, screaming for passes that are simply not on. While he's doing this he's completely stationary. And sometimes he's stationary for 5 or 6 seconds while we have the ball. That's unbelievable. The longer he calls for the ball without moving the more suicidal would be a pass to him. Why doesn't he know this? When we don't have the ball he's labrador-like in trying to retrieve it and that's good. Though sometimes a tackle can be less effective than a jockey. He made a stupid tackle from behind right on the edge of our box, which merely plonked the ball forward into an even more dangerous area.

We really do miss Lucas in these situations.

Maxi though. What a fine footballer. I want to see more of him. He does almost everything right. The pass that Bellamy almost hooked in was made in Argentina. The spin on the ball, the perfect judgment of Bellamy's pace. And who saw it coming, even from the privileged perspective of the TV camera? Not I. 

Great that Carroll scored. And from such a fierce shot. Great that Downing broke his duck too. He'd have had an assist as well but for Carroll somehow heading over the bar.

Kuyt was poor again. Bobble, bobble, bobble. He hates the ball. The ball hates him.

 

 
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Offline BazC

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Re: 3rd Round Table: Liverpool 5-1 Oldham
« Reply #3 on: January 6, 2012, 11:14:46 pm »
I missed the first half hour or so as I was travelling (turned the game on just as they'd gone 1-0 up, and we were about to score). So it sounds like I missed the defensive shambles... but it's not surprising - that back 4 was a mish-mash of players who won't play in a big game for us. The one thing I did notice was Coates' passing. In that it was horrifically bad (like pass it to an opponent 5 yards outside your own box bad). But he'd make it up by putting in an inch perfect tackle anyway!

The best thing to come out of the game was Carroll and Downing scoring. Obviously Stevie's back and for the better..... but it was Shelvey who really stole the show today. The guy's good. Took his goal very well, his attacking passing was spot on and the way he found space and commanded the ball was good to see. I'd like to see more drive and energy from him though- I'd like to see a player who can really inject that into our game considering how much we missed Stevie and will miss Suarez.

Decent game in all- I hope Andy and Stewart take that on to their next games because we really do need them to start producing now (they're already a couple of months late).

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Offline the 92A

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Re: 3rd Round Table: Liverpool 5-1 Oldham
« Reply #4 on: January 6, 2012, 11:34:04 pm »
Big positive for me is that despite the personell changes you can see that Dalglish wants pass and move football. At the back kelly was a positive  but Coates had a real stinker but he'll improve,hopefully,  but Carragher's career is coming to the end, it's sad to see him so out of his depth, nice to see aurelio playing. You can see that our whole game is based on quick passing but to be effective this needs players with real game intellegence and to often our midfield look static but Lucas and Gerrard will solve this, echo Baz great to see Carroll and Downing grab goals, tonight the players will be feeling positive.
 
Best positive though was in the Main stand, I was in the middle of a Creche, at one point I was missing the 'Fucking' out of the steve Gerrard song,so as not to offend the kids, but it was no use, that was the one part of the song they wanted to sing,as they looked at their embarrassed Dad's and Mum's for a reaction ;D  I had so many kids around me I felt positively old. Shows how to get the next generation in, lower the price and put the tickets on general sale. Half time, it was bouncing when the Coke and Hotdogs came out, nearly as good as the goals as far as the kids were concerned, tomatoe sauce everywhere.
« Last Edit: January 6, 2012, 11:54:50 pm by The 92A »
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Re: 3rd Round Table: Liverpool 5-1 Oldham
« Reply #5 on: January 6, 2012, 11:49:48 pm »

At the back though we were a shambles in the first half. Carragher is a busted flush. He's slow, he's incapable of pressing and he simply cannot move with the ball at his feet. Not even a yard. There was a dreadful moment in the first half when Coates lost possession and the Oldham centre forward then nutmegged Carragher before shooting high and wide with only Reina to beat. The fault was mainly Jamie's. He got so close to Coates that the young Uruguayan suddenly had no one to pass to. His hesitation was understandable. I'm sure he couldn't believe that an experienced international centre-back partner would make such a basic error by cutting off any passing option he might have.


Good post, but I think you're giving Coates a little too much credit there. His distribution is at best erratic, at worst fucking bizarre. He seems to think our full-backs are fifteen foot tall because I've seen him play a ludicrous cross-field ball on three separate occasions. You've got to fear our options if Agger or Skrtel pick up an injury, to be honest.

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Re: 3rd Round Table: Liverpool 5-1 Oldham
« Reply #6 on: January 6, 2012, 11:56:38 pm »
Good post, but I think you're giving Coates a little too much credit there. His distribution is at best erratic, at worst fucking bizarre. He seems to think our full-backs are fifteen foot tall because I've seen him play a ludicrous cross-field ball on three separate occasions. You've got to fear our options if Agger or Skrtel pick up an injury, to be honest.

You've got something there Garstonite. But Coates will be ok. He's got a bit of a raw deal at the moment because he only gets to play alongside Jamie who is in catastrophic decline. He'll be better alongside Agger.

You impressed by Shelvey?
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Offline Degs

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Re: 3rd Round Table: Liverpool 5-1 Oldham
« Reply #7 on: January 7, 2012, 12:05:11 am »
I secretly enjoy matches where a "B team" is selected as much as any big match, it's that foray into the unknown and the possibility that at some time the stars will align and you will be able to look back in 20 years and say "I saw Robbie Fowler in his first Cup game and you knew he was a superstar then". It's the unpredictability that makes the FA Cup so special, unknown players from a shite mill town team halfway down the football league you've never heard of, washed up never was beens and Cinderella stories of "he's a postman, he works in a bank and that one's a bin man" flood the football commentary of the special weekend and yet as much as they try and dilute it with the continuous repetition of "magic of the F.A. Cup" deep down we all love it.

With that said it is no surprise Oldham were fast out of the blocks, for all of the players concerned this was the biggest game of their careers. This was no B-Team, this was Oldham at their best and giving every drop of blood, sweat, and at one point tears, for the cause.  Liverpool on the other hand were a rabble of strangers, unsure of their positions, too eager to play that extra short ball and for 20 minutes Oldham were on top.

In a tactical sense the first 20 minutes was a shambles.  Dirk Kuyt was supposed to be a focal point in attack yet dropped 20 yards at any occasion, while Carragher and Coates played at a pace that can kindly be called "glacial", however the biggest tactical error came from the full-backs.  While Johnson and Enrique can often be found in the final third of the pitch providing width and an "out" ball Aurelio and Kelly were static and maintained a flat back 4.  Maybe this was a tactic to keep a relatively highish line while maintaining some pace at the back but ultimately it didn't work. Maxi and Shelvey played as inside-wingers and this allowed Oldham to tuck inside and fill any gap with bodies, there was no space created out wide and it meant every pass that was played was an attempt to thread the eye of a needle, that every move consisted of 2 passes to many with players seemingly scared to shoot only further played into the Oldham gameplan and the only suprise after 20 minutes was that it was only 0-1.

After the goal there was an instant reaction, the devils that sit on either side of Craig Bellamy awoke and started telling him  that the Oldham back line called his mum a slag while Steven Gerrard realised that if he went through Oldham, rather than around, they would wilt.  Soon enough we were back on track but it was not until half time tactical changes from Kenny that we saw a truly different team.

At half time Bellamy was pushed to the right while Gerrard played the second striker role and Shelvey dropped deep.  This suited everyone, it suited Gerrard who prefers a shot, Bellamy who likes to run at players, Kuyt who received better balls, and Shelvey who didn't have to provide that "killer" pass. 

This is what concerns me, we only have a few "greedy" players, that is players willing to choose to shoot over the decision to pass.  Far too many times this season we have been too intricate and too slow in our build up with too few players willing to just have a shot.  Adam has done this a few times, Henderson less so, Downing almost never.  It is only players such as Suarez, Gerrard, Bellamy and Maxi who have the guts to regularly risk the wrath of their team-mates and ignore them in favour of a shot.

By the 80th minute the toll was showing on Oldham and good cameos from Carroll (a support striker if ever I saw one -NOT a target man) and Downing showed that their is hope for them.  Shelvey grew into the game and eventually found his natural position between Gerrard and Spearing as Oldham pushed back. Like Henderson young Jonjo is talented but still needs to learn the positional elements of the game and most importantly that it is OK to take a risk whether it be through a forward run or a shot, it's OK to lose the ball if you're trying things.

All in all it was a flattering scoreline but ultimately an expected one. We advance to the 4th round with relatively little surprises from our B-Team with the possible exception of Coates may not be as ready as some think, what I will say though is John Flannaghan was very impressive off the bench and that did surprise me.

With the football out of the way it brings me on to a sad part of tonight's match.
I was in the Kop, block 105 not far from the front, I never heard or saw what, or in what manner it was, said to the Oldham right-back and I certainly will not have a go at a fellow Kopite on rumour and conjecture.  What I will say though is that we really need to get rid of this collective chip on our shoulder now.

In the middle of the Suarez song it looked to me like something bad was said to the Oldham right back.  Immediately, with his extreme reaction, everybodies thoughts were that something had been said with a racial tone.  Some took it as the Oldham lad having a problem with the Suarez song and sung it louder, I have no problem with that.  What I have a problem with is that as time went on it was clear this wasn't the case and the Oldham player was singling out one of the crowd.  Something was said.  What I didn't like was a large portion of the Kop then started booing the lad, for all we know he has a genuine grievance and has a right to kick off and the look on his face said to me that it did.  To then boo this lad, or for that matter the lad in the Kop, without knowing ANY facts is wrong and we need to realise that if we don't get rid of this chip on our shoulder we're going to end up on the wrong side of where we want to be not just as a football club but as people.

Bring on the 4th round, it can't come soon enough.
« Last Edit: January 7, 2012, 12:11:04 am by Degs »

Offline Garstonite

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Re: 3rd Round Table: Liverpool 5-1 Oldham
« Reply #8 on: January 7, 2012, 12:06:57 am »
You've got something there Garstonite. But Coates will be ok. He's got a bit of a raw deal at the moment because he only gets to play alongside Jamie who is in catastrophic decline. He'll be better alongside Agger.

You impressed by Shelvey?

Hugely. Really glad he's been recalled. The only silver lining of Lucas' injury, although I don't think he should have gone in the first place. I think Adam's form over Christmas has shown he clearly doesn't have the legs/focus to play consistently and I have absolutely no fears that Shelvey's capable in his absence.

He seems to have the right level of arrogance. Doesn't quake in the presence of Gerrard like some players seem to. Always demanding the ball, always moving, unafraid of making mistakes. I've thought he was going to be a player from the first time I saw him in the flesh (against Northampton last year, no less) and he'll be absolutely buzzing tonight.

Should definitely be in contention for a starting place against Stoke next weekend.

Offline StevenLFC

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Re: 3rd Round Table: Liverpool 5-1 Oldham
« Reply #9 on: January 7, 2012, 09:38:03 am »
I'm glad Kelly got a start, he's deserved it and playing either him or Johnson will not weaken us at all. Glad to see Fabio back, he could provide cover if Enrique got injured/suspensed, which is better than moving Agger to left back.

I thought them scoring give us a kick up the arse, and in the end the score flattered us somewhat, but that can happen against lower league clubs due to the better fitness of our players.

I like the look of Shelvey, he's got the confidence to try things and makes us look a better team attacking wise.

Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: 3rd Round Table: Liverpool 5-1 Oldham
« Reply #10 on: January 7, 2012, 12:35:06 pm »
The back four played like the strangers they were, very iffy for the first twenty minutes, Coates now knows what the FA cup is all about, he looked a bit like a stranded whale on the left of Carra. Kelly showed that Glen should be looking over his shoulder and this competition for that position can only help the club.

Midfield again disjointed at first in fact half way through the first I was wondering whether Henderson should have been out there to steady the midfield because it seemed a bit like headless chickens at times. Ironically their goal was the best thing that happened to us, we started playing from that point, getting the instant equaliser helped as did going in ahead after Gerrard's pen, in off a small part of the woodwork was a good thing to see has our luck turned?

Second half switched Bellamy over to the right and he destroyed their wing back, for me Craig was MOTM he was the inspiration for the second half onslaught. Plusses from the game are we are in the next round, Jonjo is looking the player who I believe will be great for us  for many years to come, Spearing looked steady certainly better in the second half, Maxi was simply Maxi,  class player. Steve 90minutes and at times it looked like he was tutoring a couple of the younger lads. Goal for Carroll and Downing is for them something to build on, goal for Jonjo was good and well taken. Other plusses was Aurelio and Flanagan got some time on the pitch.

Negatives if only small ones was Dirk nothing is going for him, his movement off the ball is still good but he needs to score one off his arse or anywhere to get going for us. Carra and Coates not a combination I want to see too often for us but that is about it.

For them cracking goal by Simpson and the lad who looked like a young David Fairclough was a decent player at times, and a special word for the man who has had more clubs than Craig,  Kuqi nice to see the old warhorse still battling on the pitch.

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Offline John C

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Re: 3rd Round Table: Liverpool 5-1 Oldham
« Reply #11 on: January 7, 2012, 12:46:56 pm »
The many that showed frustration at half time should remember that not only is a game over 90 minutes but beside Stevie and Pepe that was our reserve side that eventually nailed a 5-1 win.

That said, we are the Craig Bellamy show aren't we. His enthusiasm and more importantly ability is incredible.

Delighted for Carroll and Downing.
Its interesting that Spearing hasn't lost his desire for a tackle either, he's attacked the ball in two games in exactly the same manner he was sent off for.

Shelvey once again claimed his place as a long term prospect in a position yet unknown - he could really be a bit of a utility player.

Some of the lads, including SG, must have been shattered and I'm surprised Kenny didn't do a Sven and make 10 subs. I suppose there's no need to consider SG for the City game anyway, go there and just stay compact

Made up for Kenny, its great being in the hat.

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Re: 3rd Round Table: Liverpool 5-1 Oldham
« Reply #12 on: January 7, 2012, 12:59:10 pm »
In a tactical sense the first 20 minutes was a shambles.  Dirk Kuyt was supposed to be a focal point in attack yet dropped 20 yards at any occasion, while Carragher and Coates played at a pace that can kindly be called "glacial", however the biggest tactical error came from the full-backs.  While Johnson and Enrique can often be found in the final third of the pitch providing width and an "out" ball Aurelio and Kelly were static and maintained a flat back 4.  Maybe this was a tactic to keep a relatively highish line while maintaining some pace at the back but ultimately it didn't work. Maxi and Shelvey played as inside-wingers and this allowed Oldham to tuck inside and fill any gap with bodies, there was no space created out wide and it meant every pass that was played was an attempt to thread the eye of a needle, that every move consisted of 2 passes to many with players seemingly scared to shoot only further played into the Oldham gameplan and the only suprise after 20 minutes was that it was only 0-1.

Beautifully put - they'd often get a run on us up narrow-ish channels as a result when the needle wasn't quite threaded or it broke down en route forward.

It was very open and the tempo stayed frenetic the whole game. Pepe at one stage seemed to intentionally stop and impose a pause for thought, but for me we could have used a wee bit more of that last night.

Saying that, it wouldn't have been as entertaining a game - I really enjoyed it.

Offline skidz73

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Re: 3rd Round Table: Liverpool 5-1 Oldham
« Reply #13 on: January 7, 2012, 01:01:33 pm »
Wasn't it worth giving Carroll a start  for this game? Not like he needed a rest.
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Re: 3rd Round Table: Liverpool 5-1 Oldham
« Reply #14 on: January 7, 2012, 01:05:44 pm »
Wasn't it worth giving Carroll a start  for this game? Not like he needed a rest.

Carroll had played 3 full games in the space of 8 days, prior to this game.

Offline Umbarto

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Re: 3rd Round Table: Liverpool 5-1 Oldham
« Reply #15 on: January 7, 2012, 01:06:55 pm »
Was a beautiful goal by Carroll.  On his birthday too.  Definitely made up for him and hope it helps his confidence.

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Re: 3rd Round Table: Liverpool 5-1 Oldham
« Reply #16 on: January 7, 2012, 01:09:37 pm »
Slow start. Nicely taken goals. Nice to see Downing and Carroll Score. Both can thank Mr. Kuyt who ran the defence ragged. By the time Carroll and Downing were on, their defence were out on their feet.

Great result.
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Re: 3rd Round Table: Liverpool 5-1 Oldham
« Reply #17 on: January 7, 2012, 01:10:54 pm »
Already people steaming in on Coates. Had a bit of a stinker yesterday tbf but this reaction is unwarranted. His distribution has been good on other occasions, actually thought he was brilliant v Chelsea despite what for me was a cast-iron pen in the opening minutes. He'll come good, i'm very confident of that.

I really like Shelvey. Very clever movement and a gifted right boot, would like him to get a bit of game time over Adam in the future as he breaks into the box very often, something we've needed with the lack of goals. People have said he needs to get his final ball right, but no footballer has ever been 100% consistent in doing that, especially not at 18. Definitely got time on his side and the signs look positive. Getting him, Carroll and Downing on the scoresheet at last will do us no harm.

Spearing impressed me again, doesn't half keep it simple but it's a disciplinary quality we lack without Lucas, and should keep his place no doubt. Bellamy MOTM for me no question,  seeing Gerrard burst from midfield still makes me feel as excited as ever.
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Offline itsgunnabebarnes!

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Re: 3rd Round Table: Liverpool 5-1 Oldham
« Reply #18 on: January 7, 2012, 01:11:56 pm »
Thought we were shocking first half,  Fabio was dreadful as was dirk. Second half we were better, but nothing to shout about.

Guess this is what happens when you play a makeshift team as such. Bellamy was great, a real menace. Has to start at City.
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Re: 3rd Round Table: Liverpool 5-1 Oldham
« Reply #19 on: January 7, 2012, 01:13:17 pm »
Fair play to Oldham, they never gave up and to be fair the first 20 minutes or so they had us rocking. Experimental back 4 that creaked a few time but over the 90 started to settle for a first time as a full back 4.

Midfield much the same in getting better as the 90 went on and nice to see some of our more unluckyer(?) players get on the score sheet, that will no doubt give them a boost.
Biggest plus of the night? .....Getting through so that means Suarez is now back for the Spurs game.

We're in the hat and thats all that matters. Another home tie out the hat please mister ex-footballer come z-list celeb, whoever you are.

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Offline Cpt_Reina

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Re: 3rd Round Table: Liverpool 5-1 Oldham
« Reply #20 on: January 7, 2012, 01:25:24 pm »
Coates was shaky. But he'll learn a lot from these sort of games. They'll stand him in good stead.

Kuyt continues to remove all doubt that he should be moved on as quickly and efficiently as possible. Cant fault him for effort, never could, but the goals have dried up and he's just not scaling the heights any more.

Bellamy again proved what an astute signing he's been. His pace and direct play is so important to us given our lack of players of that type. He could and perhaps have had many more assists then he had at the final whistle.

Was very apt that both Kelly and Spearing continued to prove what fine young players they are on the night that Gary Ablett was appreciated around Anfield. They're a credit to him and us. Always solid always looking to play football and never found wanting those two.

Carroll's career was summed up in the few minutes on the pitch. A sublime finish for his goal. Power and finesse in equal measure. And then an easy chance squandered. But the evidence is there. The lad CAN play football. He just needs his performances to level out. Patience will get him there. He might need a few years but he can get there.

All in all we won a match we should have won. Hopefully the goals will be the boost players like Downing, Carroll, Gerrard and Shelvey need to really kick on in to the second half of the season.

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Re: 3rd Round Table: Liverpool 5-1 Oldham
« Reply #21 on: January 7, 2012, 02:20:20 pm »
While I agree that Kuyt hasn't had the best games lately, I find it a bit odd that people say he's at the end of his career and needs moving on. While at the same time often the same people put high hopes on to Gerrard who's two months older than Kuyt and had a pretty horrible times with injuries for nearly two years now.
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Re: 3rd Round Table: Liverpool 5-1 Oldham
« Reply #22 on: January 7, 2012, 02:24:12 pm »
While I agree that Kuyt hasn't had the best games lately, I find it a bit odd that people say he's at the end of his career and needs moving on. While at the same time often the same people put high hopes on to Gerrard who's two months older than Kuyt and had a pretty horrible times with injuries for nearly two years now.

Gerrard's shown more in 2 games then Kuyt has all season.

That's the difference.

Offline Lord Roger Hunt

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Re: 3rd Round Table: Liverpool 5-1 Oldham
« Reply #23 on: January 7, 2012, 02:33:03 pm »
I think we have some brilliant youngsters coming through in Kelly, Spearing and Carroll but Shelvey just doesn't do it for me, think he's way down the pecking order for a middle field spot so he may vote with his feet as he's too young to sit on  the bench.

Kelly is really a centre half which adds to his performance at right back last night - hope he remains happy to sit on the bench, as Glen is only mid 20's so, unless we sell him, Kelly is only going to get the occasional game.                                                                                     
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Offline redbyrdz

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Re: 3rd Round Table: Liverpool 5-1 Oldham
« Reply #24 on: January 7, 2012, 02:33:14 pm »
Gerrard's shown more in 2 games then Kuyt has all season.

That's the difference.
Don't agree, but don't want to turn this into another Kuyt thread. Just find it odd to write a player off that easily.
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Offline Bangin Them In

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Re: 3rd Round Table: Liverpool 5-1 Oldham
« Reply #25 on: January 7, 2012, 02:38:24 pm »
Old School FA cup tie from the day where a Kenny inspired LFC were ripped at by lower division teams and finished them 2nd half of 2nd half.

Strangely for all the plaudits heaped on Rafa in his days here (and all richly deserved) I never really felt that we would properly get at these teams then like we did last night, always seemed to be hanging on grimly.

Seemed a plan and a method to last night, Bellamy excellent again, like Shelvey a lot (with Henderson) seems an industrious player with an eye for goal and the skipper is the skipper.
Spearing has proved me wrong and is stepping up nicely, never though it, but we have a player there.

Coates will be fine, just needs time and those going at the back 4 - they hardly ever play, defending is about being a unit and having faith in those around you, you can't do that if you barely know them in games, we are defensively fine, they just need games.

A win for the Liverpool country

Offline farawayred

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Re: 3rd Round Table: Liverpool 5-1 Oldham
« Reply #26 on: January 7, 2012, 06:02:55 pm »
Unusual game. Credit to Oldham for coming at us as they did and for. Ever giving up even a few goals down. Their goal was magnificent. We, on the other hand played really bad. Our passing was just terrible, we didn't fight for second balls, let Oldham play their game which put our refurbished defence under pressure, and they made mistake after mistake. A bit more composed opposition would have seen us out. Instead, we won by a large margin... Long live the days when we play poorly and win! Stevie's penalty should go in the FIFA training videos, incredible combination of composure, power and accuracy. Bellamy scored with his torso; does that count toward his shots to goal ratio, was that a shot? ;) Jonjo was also very composed for his goal, and good thing that Stevie didn't kick him hard enough to miss... Andy scored as he's been banging them day in and day out, no sign of the weight of the dry spell. And of course Downing might gain confidence from his goal. It all looked like it was planned in advance and played by the script. The best thing may be that the scoters were all different, and all that before the City game. Excellent! Especially in contrast to the performance.
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Offline Vulmea

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Re: 3rd Round Table: Liverpool 5-1 Oldham
« Reply #27 on: January 7, 2012, 08:40:14 pm »
Cup game  meant I was up in row 58 - oxygen  mask was called for and  abit of an unusal view - but it was a bit of a bizarre night all round - very mild night in more ways than one not just that me extra socks weren't needed - it seemed a bit low key from the off - Oldham had the whole bottom tier of the anny road but they behaved like typical tourists - hard to hear but it looked like they even joined in the ynwa, camera's flashing, scarves aloft etc made what was to follow even more bizarre

until they scored I think it would be wrong to criticise tactics or style of play or anything because we simply didn't turn up, we were so lack lustre it was like being in a trance - they created two glorious chances before they scored we had a couple of decent chances but nothing on par with theirs - only when they scored diod we actually start playing -

Aurelio is a class player its such a shame he's made of  glass - some of his play is ice cool, the way he finds time and space and an angle for a pass when a player is right in his face.

Coates on the other hand had a mare he couldn't pass a ball five yards even when he had time and space and he was outmuscled and out jumped by even the smaller Oldham players - to blame that on Carra says more about the poster than Carra - whether the lad's head was elsewhere or he was overawed by the occasion and full house I dont know but from what I've seen of him before including the stiffs this was by far his  poorest game -

once they scored though we just transformed - I didn't think this was down to some grand tactic or positioning of players or anything other than the fact we just woke up and realised it was a proper game - the remainder of the half they were lucky to get out of their half

start of the second  - we were up and down in our seats like a fiddlers elbow how many times was Bellamy played in down the flank - missed what happened with one of them - did Maxi actually kick it the wrong way? Kuyt just lacked that yard to get ahead of his player (probably why sometimes he runs ahead of the ball) - finally Shelvey finished one of them off - Thought the lad did well - there was a period in the first half when he was everywhere left wing, right back, centre mid - thought he covered Kelly well a couple of times

then the incident - suddenly the Oldham supporters were Mancs, we were to quote them  'a town full of racists' and although the atmosphere became loud it left a bit a sour note on the whole night - as did Carroll missing that absolute sitter near the end but I left thinking more about the club and its reputation than having just seen us win an fa cup tie 5 -1 , with Shelvey, Downing and Carroll on the score sheet and a great pen from Gerrard.

oh and what was happening with that fella in Gerrards face for a good 30 seconds before the pen?

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Offline Rafette

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Re: 3rd Round Table: Liverpool 5-1 Oldham
« Reply #28 on: January 7, 2012, 08:54:12 pm »
Made up for Carroll and Downing, hopefully last night should get a few critics off their backs, for a while at least. As someone else has said, I'm not sure yet what Shelvey's actual position will be, but he's showing a lot of promise. Great to see Kelly again, I think he's a beast of a player.

Thought Coates looked a bit clumsy last night, but I suppose that's down to lack of time on the pitch, if we get a good cup run and he keeps getting picked, it should bolster his confidence and we'll see what the club saw that made them go for him. Frustrated by Kuyt again, can't understand how he seems to have fallen from grace so much.

I didn't know what was going on with regards to the Adeyemi incident as I was in PK5 last night- (possibly the least animated block I've ever sat in), all I saw was the 4th official speaking to the copper. Annoyed with (and embarrased by) the lads sat behind the dug out, they were giving Dickov dog's abuse but all the nearest steward kept saying was "one more and your out...one more, I'll throw you out..."

Still, bring on the draw- it's tomorrow isn't it?
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Offline Upinsmoke

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Re: 3rd Round Table: Liverpool 5-1 Oldham
« Reply #29 on: January 7, 2012, 09:44:42 pm »
The game changed when kenny put Shelvey into the middle to support spearing and Gerrard. We look lost in the middle of the park before that and was getting outplayed by Oldham.

Just a couple of points as I agree with most posted in here.

Never realised how effective craig was down the right, always fancied him down the left but I cast my mind back to the Chelsea game where he assisted maxi I think it was and that was down the right, Would actually really fancy him to start there more often now, he has pace, great timing of runs and great awareness around him, he put a couple of balls on a plate for dirk and I'd hope if he did that in future big andy would be there. He can whip a ball in as well.

Secondly, disappointed by the whole back four last night but not suprised. When was the last time they played, never mind as an actual back four together. I think Coates looked nervous but Jamie did him no favours playing alongside him, it just seemed to me that seb had little faith in carragher as a cb partner  and that definitely impacted on his performance. It's a shame to see carra struggle but not surprising, when he was starting he was the weak link in the back four but regular appearences kept him at a decent level, now he hasn't featured as much it's definitely had a massive negative effect on his game.

Offline Barney_Rubble

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Re: 3rd Round Table: Liverpool 5-1 Oldham
« Reply #30 on: January 7, 2012, 09:52:56 pm »
"Five?"



"We scored five??!!!!?!!"

87:13

Offline TH

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Re: 3rd Round Table: Liverpool 5-1 Oldham
« Reply #31 on: January 7, 2012, 10:47:06 pm »
Some great posts and food for thought in this thread as always. Nothing to add really, but as "we're not allowed another Downing thread yet" I want to share my absolute delight with this lad breaking his duck. Was an average goal all right  :P Anyway he celebrated like it was his first cameo for Liverpool FC. Let's give him a chance to restart his career with us, not just because this guy is going to have a fucking purple patch smashing run of top performances, assists and goals. He's one of us eh? We're all behind you Stewart  :wave

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Re: 3rd Round Table: Liverpool 5-1 Oldham
« Reply #32 on: January 8, 2012, 02:34:02 am »


In the middle of the Suarez song it looked to me like something bad was said to the Oldham right back.  Immediately, with his extreme reaction, everybodies thoughts were that something had been said with a racial tone.  Some took it as the Oldham lad having a problem with the Suarez song and sung it louder, I have no problem with that.  What I have a problem with is that as time went on it was clear this wasn't the case and the Oldham player was singling out one of the crowd.  Something was said.  What I didn't like was a large portion of the Kop then started booing the lad, for all we know he has a genuine grievance and has a right to kick off and the look on his face said to me that it did.  To then boo this lad, or for that matter the lad in the Kop, without knowing ANY facts is wrong and we need to realise that if we don't get rid of this chip on our shoulder we're going to end up on the wrong side of where we want to be not just as a football club but as people.

[/quote]

Thank you. 

Offline danhumby

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Re: 3rd Round Table: Liverpool 5-1 Oldham
« Reply #33 on: January 8, 2012, 09:10:57 am »
While I agree that Kuyt hasn't had the best games lately, I find it a bit odd that people say he's at the end of his career and needs moving on. While at the same time often the same people put high hopes on to Gerrard who's two months older than Kuyt and had a pretty horrible times with injuries for nearly two years now.

Kuyt's predominant strength has always been his work rate which you still can't doubt but we have a more positive, dynamic style of play than recent seasons and I believe he takes away from that. I still think we need genuine width on the right similar to that which we thought we were getting with downing on the left. Henderson has shown enough for me that he can command a place in the side in the future but believe he's more effective in the middle.

Offline ALANM

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Re: 3rd Round Table: Liverpool 5-1 Oldham
« Reply #34 on: January 8, 2012, 10:22:18 am »
For an hour Oldham ceratinly gave as good as they got and scored a brilliant goal. The final score was harsh on them, but how many times this sesaon has the score been harsh on us?

Bellamy was superb on Friday. We also look a lot better with Gerrard back. Hopefully his return will help compensate for the loss of Suarez as he has the ability to score goals himself, but also proved the service that our strikers should be able to thrive on. Defensively I wasn't impressed. Some of the passing from the back was poor, we didn't defend well both individually or collectively, and I thought Coates looked very nervous on his Anfield debut.

Job done though as we enter the unchartered territory of the 4th round!! Another home draw please, and a life ban for the idiot who abused Adeyemi. What was he trying to achieve?

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Re: 3rd Round Table: Liverpool 5-1 Oldham
« Reply #35 on: January 8, 2012, 11:03:24 am »

In the middle of the Suarez song it looked to me like something bad was said to the Oldham right back.  Immediately, with his extreme reaction, everybodies thoughts were that something had been said with a racial tone.  Some took it as the Oldham lad having a problem with the Suarez song and sung it louder, I have no problem with that.  What I have a problem with is that as time went on it was clear this wasn't the case and the Oldham player was singling out one of the crowd.  Something was said.  What I didn't like was a large portion of the Kop then started booing the lad, for all we know he has a genuine grievance and has a right to kick off and the look on his face said to me that it did.  To then boo this lad, or for that matter the lad in the Kop, without knowing ANY facts is wrong and we need to realise that if we don't get rid of this chip on our shoulder we're going to end up on the wrong side of where we want to be not just as a football club but as people.



Thank you. 
I agree totally. My initial reaction was that Adeyemi was throwing a hissy fit over the Suarez song. Prior to that it had been sung occassionally by the back of the Kop, but this was the 1st time it was in full flow. It soon became apprent to me though that his grievance was with an individual. At that point we should have given him some leeway.

Offline Shanks1965

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Re: 3rd Round Table: Liverpool 5-1 Oldham
« Reply #36 on: January 8, 2012, 11:21:28 am »
Sat in the Lower Centenary with my best mate, an Oldham fan. Anyone sat near the half way line up at the back hear someone from Oldham vocalising throughout... that would be him. Knows the way to behave though, likes us as his 2nd team. Wore his Hillsbourough sticker, sang Never Walk Alone, supported his team and didnt slag us off. Did have to tell him to "oh do fuck off" and one point though and that brought a chuckle of amusement from those sat nearby.

I really enjoyed an open game and perhaps the score flattered us a little bit but they were always going to tire in the last 20 minutes. Had no idea what was going on with the 'incident' other than he looked pretty annoyed about something. Took a bit of the edge off the night when we found out to be honest but in football terms it was just nice to see us score some goals for a change. Pissed off when they scored though.... another clean sheet for the Fantasy team down the pan.
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Offline leivapool

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Re: 3rd Round Table: Liverpool 5-1 Oldham
« Reply #37 on: January 8, 2012, 11:35:18 am »
To me the main lesson from this game was that J.J Shelvey needs more minutes.  And while others have noted that Gerrard and Shelvey seemed to get in each others way, I think for the most part they were making appropriate runs, and we must remember that this was their first match playing together.  The way our squad is currently, I think we should continue to play both on the pitch, as they are dangerous attackers centrally, whereas this entire season we tend to concentrate a little too much on our wide attacks, with the most glaring manifestation the lack of numbers in the box from our crosses.  Not only that, the way our squad looks, we actually have better quality in central positions that out wide (as far as midfield and forward).  Which is why I'm of the opinion that perhaps trying out the Brazilian 4-4-2 would make sense, especially given how Shelvey looks as a player.  It might solve our problems with players getting into each others way out wide, and our lack of numbers in the box.    The poster Felipe in Rio described the formation here:  http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=278619.msg9118024#msg9118024

Basically, IMO, the system would allow Johnson and Enrique to function as the two "laterals", occupying the wide areas like Roberto Carlos and Cafu (and they are actually not bad approximations of the two players, though they might not be at the same level).  As others have noted, Enrique tends to get in the way of some our wide players, but in this system he would be the primary wide player (though obviously, in the flow of the game, others will end up on the wing at times) and this may help balance the attack.   Also, they are both more than capable of bringing the ball up field to initiate the attack.

In the midfield 4, we could incorporate both Shelvey and Gerrard as the "8" and the "10", as they are both better as attacking central midfielders, given their goal-scoring prowess and passing ability.  They would also have freedom to roam out and create  on the wing depending on the flow, and Gerrard as the "8" might decide at times to drop deeper, even though he is better upfield.  These two are both creators AND goalscorers, and it doesnt hurt at all to have more players capable of doing both, rather than having to keep one on the bench.  We need as many goal-scorers on the pitch as possible.  Continuing on in the midfield, Henderson would be the 7, more of a DM but also involved in attack, but having to keep an eye on the space and if Agger/Skrtel decide to march upfield with the ball.  Spearing would be the 5, strictly a DM and horizontal passer, which he does do well enough.

Obviously Suarez would be the ideal 11, but for now, Maxi or Bellamy could play the role.  In fact, I think Maxi is better served in central areas rather than out wide.  When wide, his lack of acceleration is prominent, and his strengths of great timing of runs and close control can be better served centrally IMO (and his goal-scoring).  For instance, in the City game, he got off a half-chance in a crowded penalty box after having received the ball on the ground.  Maxi could also conceivably function deeper in the "10" role.  Bellamy, of course, can easily play the 11 or 9.  I think Downing could function here as well, although he would likely drift wide.  The "9" would be Carroll or Bellamy, with Carroll greatly assisted by having more attackers around him to occupy the opposition.  In Carroll's case he should, like others have observed, remain on the last man as much as possible, rather than getting too involved in the buildup - playing to his strengths.


Great post, and whilst it would be a brave move by Kenny to try and play like this, we've probably got the players to attempt it at the moment.

Couple of points, I think you over simplify the role of the No 5 position,  I was led to believe it was THE crucial position in this system, hence the translation as 'steeering wheel'.  Certainly once Lucas is fit, as Felipe in Rio notes, he is completely suited to this position, and it's the one that gets the best out of him.  It would be a huge ask of Spearing to play this role though as he is still learning the DM role.  Don't think Adam would  fit in to this system though?

Do Uruguay play this type of system?  Is this the reason they appear to get so many more goals out of Luis, or do they use a more traditional one?

Anyways, some thought provoking stuff in your post, Thanks
Rossiter absolutely bossed it tonight. Really believe he'll end up playing more games this season than Lucas.


Henderson won't make it here. Sorry but he won't and won't

Offline leivapool

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Re: 3rd Round Table: Liverpool 5-1 Oldham
« Reply #38 on: January 8, 2012, 03:28:25 pm »
You're right, I did oversimplify the "5" position, although Felipe had noted that in recent years the "5"s had become more defensive.  Also, these things would have to be modified to our players.  I'd put Spearing over Adam for better cover defensively, even though Adam offers more going forward.  Henderson would be the key. 

I think Uruguay have a more traditional system, although I seem to recall them occasionally using three at the back.  Not sure though.  As for us, I think they key is still to try to get as many playmakers and goal-scorers on the pitch as possible, and I think Shelvey fits the category of both, and Henderson is definitely a playmaker (so the system would get Gerrard, Henderson and Shelvey on the pitch with Spearing as DM).  We looked to be playing closer to a 4-3-3 in this Oldham game, with Bellamy making runs out wide at times, and with Gerrard and Shelvey heavily involved in attack.  Dalglish I'd presume might persist with this, especially if Downing has to miss games for his charge.  The only reason I was musing on the Brazil system was as an idea on how to play to our strengths, of which are Enrique and Johnson, who would make great laterals IMO.

Certainly with the fit players we have Spearing has to play the No5 role.  Looking at the description of the attributes a No 5 has below from Felipe in Rio, , Adam is completely unsuited to doing this. Henderson would indeed be the key, but Adam would be left out completely as he is unsuited to any of the roles within the Brazil style system.  If Spearing could cope with the No5 role, Lucas has also previosuly played as the second volante so could do the Henderson role.

So we'd have

 Lucas/Spearing for no 5 (first volante)

Henderson/Lucas for the second volante

Gerrard/ Shelvey for the more attacking positions.

I think Johnson would be an excellent lateral, but I'm not so convinced with Enrique.  Excellent defensively, but liable to have major brain fart moments in the attacking third. 

Anyways interesting to mull over on a slow Sunday afternoon!! 

From a post by Felipe in Rio

Lucas is a DM, a player who needs to have an incridible rate of stealing the ball, who must understand the big picture of a match very well to know when to fool, which pass to pick (thinking ahead some 2 or 3 moves so that he can analize which way is the better one to attack through). He is not perfect at those things, but he IS very good at them as you have mentioned yourself, you just thought that wasn't enough to make him a really outstanding DM, but that's really all his need.

Because his job isn't to score goals, dribble defenders or even place pinpoint passes inside the opposition's defense, his job, the end product of the DM game, is to allow the ones who are most capable of doing these things (ie. Gerrard, Suarez, and the other attacking players) to have as many chances of trying them as possible.

And that's important because even with Gerrard being as good as Gerrard is at long shots for example, if he only has the opportunity to try it 2 times a game, he will rarely score, but if Lucas does his job well and the ball keeps getting in good conditions to Gerrard, he will be able to try it 10 times instead of 2, and the chances of 1 in 10 being a goal is MUCH greater than 1 in 2.

That's why people rate Lucas so highly, his attributes are perfect for that job."

« Last Edit: January 8, 2012, 03:30:53 pm by leivapool »
Rossiter absolutely bossed it tonight. Really believe he'll end up playing more games this season than Lucas.


Henderson won't make it here. Sorry but he won't and won't