Topic: Mark Lawrenson in shocker...

[ouestlereferee]

I'd really like to see someone able to fill that gap that was there against United between the midfield and Torres. Kuyt is not that man in my opinion. It's been said before by others, we need better movement and vision, more speed of thought between midfield and the front line in order to bring others into play from deep and out wide.

I'm open to suggestions as to how this is best achieved.

I think Kewell is the best option we have for a player "in the hole" to be honest with you.  He's stronger than Benayoun and is better able to hold onto the ball.  I think Benayoun is an able deputy for weaker opposition but I'm more confident Kewell would be more dangerous in this position against better oppo (or physically stronger oppo).  The biggest difficulty with Kewell is the opportunity cost - you lose him from the left wing.

A long-shot here could be Lucas.  I think he was playing the "10" position for the ressies in one game (Spearing & Plessis in CM) and he was quite good.  If you look at his game he has the right attributes to be able to do it, he's strong, great passing & vision, really good close control.  He would play the role more in the Zidane-style i.e. ball on the deck & facing forward as opposed to a Sheringham back-to-opposition competing aerially with flick-ons etc.  The guy has fantastic movement (better than any of our other CMs IMO) so I think he could offer a very good foil for through balls from a Gerrard or Alonso behind him too.  It would also benefit our CM traffic jam which we are all worried about. This is me thinking outloud really.  Thoughts?

[ouestlereferee]

It's a fair point this.

But the problem we still have is that other than Torres, our strikers don't really look menacing with the ball. I think they're all capable of doing decent things and will all benefit from the playing alongside Torres but they don't look threatening enough with the ball. Infact, apart from Gerrard and occasionaly Benayoun - no one else in our side does, with the exception of Babel. Our full backs aren't as attacking or as settled as the other three and Kewell has lost all his pace. Voronin, Kuyt and Crouch are all, imo, one dimensional linear attacking players. They're not dynamic enough. Babel looks like he has that in him and I'd like to see him starting more games.

You make a fair point.  But, is Babel dangerous when he's on from the start?  I'm sceptical.  And I don't listen to people who say "Start Babel, then put Kuyt on" or "Start Babel, then put Crouch on".  For me, Babel works better as a sub because he has that ingredient nobody wants to play againt late in the game - pace.  Kuyt can wear down a defender, and so can Babel, but even if you put him on with 5 mins to go, Kuyt ain't gonna beat anyone for pace.  So he doesn't offer you a potential breakthrough - you may as well use him to soften up the defence for Babel, who does offer you that.  Crouchie offers something different, but it's not going to tire out anyone and prepare them for Babel, though I think he has his place against certain teams.  Kewell I think hasn't scored yet but (Utd aside) has been getting better and better.  He's just come back from injury, so he's not going to have the pace of old, whether he regains it or not remains to be seen.  In any case I think he will be chipping in with assists  more than goals - I don't mind this - against Utd our finishing wasn't exceptionally poor, it was our inability to create enough chances.

So for me, at the moment, if you want Babel to make an impact, you start either Kewell or Kuyt (preferably Kuyt as Kewell gets fit enough to give 90 good minutes) and bring on Babel as an impact sub.

[woof]

^ I agree that the difference is minuscule, but that is often where home advantage makes the difference. And my original point (thanks for not pointing out the mathematical error) is that we are not necessarily a team that plays well on the road.

We can be as we are more defensively minded that the other 3. We can exploit Torres' and Babel's pace to trouble defences when counter-attacking. Everyone knows we have a mean defence so let's leverage that. The CMs will need to practice on how to release the strikers earlier

[nico 8]

Garcia in the hole would have been nice.

[ouestlereferee]

Garcia in the hole would have been nice.

yeah i was really sad to see him leave.  i wonder if getting him back was a possibility - i heard he was unhappy at atleti....

[Guz-kop]

But, is Babel dangerous when he's on from the start?

Only one way to find out! 

[rocco]

Babel is coming along nicely...but i have been worried about his ball control at times, as though he used to more time on the ball or just not use to the Premier League yet ?

Don't take me up wrong , its just where i think hes letting himself down......but defo a talent that will get much better.

[OnizukaEikichi]

agrred Torres+babel would be great

[the_red_pill]

He's also the best rapper we've got, and I think Rafa signed him partly because he liked his flow.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Hz6Sb9AgWGM

Can't wait for the treble and the inevitable remake of "The Anfield Rap"
With the modern-day Molby, Barnes, Dalglish/Rush, Beardsley, Hansen, Nicol all involved.
Now that would be what I call class...

[cal_liverpoolfc]

babel is getting better and better every game....i also think games with a fast tempo is when he is at his best, like the mancs

[irishkopite77]

Worth a try, i know it means nothing but i've got him up front with Torres in my Liverpool starting 11.. Would like to see it happen, doubt it will though unless the strikers get injured.

[simplyred84]

Its a good piece in the sense that he's being positive about us but as has been said by a few others, Babel is not the foil for Torres!

Personally, i think that Kewell could slot in there perfectly as he has the vision and the brains suit the role. The only problem is that we then have a problem on the left. If rafa already had an option there, i dont think he would hesitate in playing kewell with torres.

[ouestlereferee]

Its a good piece in the sense that he's being positive about us but as has been said by a few others, Babel is not the foil for Torres!

I don't agree.  I'd rather give it a chance to see if it works or not first.  I don't think you could have had two Bergkamps or two RVNs playing together up front but you could certainly have two Henrys!  And, realistically, Torres & Babel are both more like Henry than any of the other strikers in the PL over the last 10 years or so  (maybe they won't score quite as many goals, but in terms of style of play, ability to create & finish chances rather than just one or the other)

Personally, i think that Kewell could slot in there perfectly as he has the vision and the brains suit the role. The only problem is that we then have a problem on the left. If rafa already had an option there, i dont think he would hesitate in playing kewell with torres.

Agree Kewell is the closest we have to a Bergkamp-style player.  I also think he will be better there over the next few years than out on the wing.  The opportunity cost of him playing in the hole is higher than for any other player at the moment though.

[ouestlereferee]

Worth a try, i know it means nothing but i've got him up front with Torres in my Liverpool starting 11.. Would like to see it happen, doubt it will though unless the strikers get injured.

who with in midfield?

[Johnnyboy1973]

Babel is a quality player.

Would it be too much pressure to put him on.

Possibly yes.

But, I do know that in the long run that Kuyt, Voronin and Crouch aren't good enough for our first team so fuck it, blood him and lets see what happens.

On the same note put Lucas in and push Gerrard to the right.

[ouestlereferee]

But, I do know that in the long run that Kuyt, Voronin and Crouch aren't good enough for our first team so fuck it, blood him and lets see what happens.

i hate to bitch about our players but none of those three will give a good defender sleepless nights.  that said, i still think crouch has a role because he does offer you something different, especially in europe, where if a defender has the measure of a talented conventional player (i.e. torres), throwing on crouch, with 15-20 mins to go, may give you a breakthrough.  putting on voronin or kuyt, i hate to say, just won't.

On the same note put Lucas in and push Gerrard to the right.

kewell on the left?  xabi or masch in cm?  what did you think of lucas in the "10" position tonight?

[Another Red]

There is no doubt that Babel will become a better footballer than Crouch, Kuyt & Voronin in time (if not already). However, Babel still has a lot to learn about team play and Rafa's philosophies. He is a brilliant individual player, but I don't exactly know where he fits in (i.e. who his best strike partner is), so I think Rafa is doing the right thing with him ATM by using him as a super sub.

We seem to be playing 4-3-3 a lot more lately. Are we evolving tactically to accommodate Babel? Probably not, but to get the best out of him probably means playing 4-3-3. This would explain why he rarely starts up front when we play 4-4-2.

[ouestlereferee]

There is no doubt that Babel will become a better footballer than Crouch, Kuyt & Voronin in time (if not already). However, Babel still has a lot to learn about team play and Rafa's philosophies. He is a brilliant individual player, but I don't exactly know where he fits in (i.e. who his best strike partner is), so I think Rafa is doing the right thing with him ATM by using him as a super sub.

good point.  tho i think with the likes of masch in the team most'd be happy to trade away kuyt's defending from the front for babel's cutting edge

We seem to be playing 4-3-3 a lot more lately. Are we evolving tactically to accommodate Babel? Probably not, but to get the best out of him probably means playing 4-3-3. This would explain why he rarely starts up front when we play 4-4-2.

i think this is also just playing to our strengths - number of central mids - and also pennant's injury, leto's slower progress (rafa involved him more  earlier in the season - wasn't even on the bench tonight, for example)

[all_names_taken]

Well, I'm not as convinced as you lads about Babel as a second striker behind Torres. He certainly is more dangerous with the ball than Kuyt, Voro and Crouch but the problem for me is he can't make space for himself especially when starting games. I think we saw that yesterday, where he was dangerous on a few opportunities when he had the ball, but overall he very rarely made himself available and as such created close to nothing apart from the moment where he managed to get past Bridge but failed to feed Lucas through. This is my main concern about him as second striker, he can hardly make space for himself, nevermind make space for Torres like Kuyt or Voronin can. In the future yes, but for the time-being he needs to improve his off-the-ball movement.

[ouestlereferee]

Well, I'm not as convinced as you lads about Babel as a second striker behind Torres. He certainly is more dangerous with the ball than Kuyt, Voro and Crouch but the problem for me is he can't make space for himself especially when starting games. I think we saw that yesterday, where he was dangerous on a few opportunities when he had the ball, but overall he very rarely made himself available and as such created close to nothing apart from the moment where he managed to get past Bridge but failed to feed Lucas through. This is my main concern about him as second striker, he can hardly make space for himself, nevermind make space for Torres like Kuyt or Voronin can. In the future yes, but for the time-being he needs to improve his off-the-ball movement.

maybe this is down to fitness??

[McmanaMark]

I reckon we offload a striker, push Babel up into contention for front-running places and look into getting a natural left footer to play on the wing. Having Harry back is a bonus, but his sharpness still isn't there and he's not the player he was at Leeds.

We need a Ronaldo. Kewell's more of a Giggs. With better delivery a Babel / Torres partnership could be frightening, and Vornonin / Kuyt are the kind of solid pros who won't mind sitting on the bench two thirds of the time.

[Johnnyboy1973]

i hate to bitch about our players but none of those three will give a good defender sleepless nights.  that said, i still think crouch has a role because he does offer you something different, especially in europe, where if a defender has the measure of a talented conventional player (i.e. torres), throwing on crouch, with 15-20 mins to go, may give you a breakthrough.  putting on voronin or kuyt, i hate to say, just won't.

kewell on the left?  xabi or masch in cm?  what did you think of lucas in the "10" position tonight?

All three are ok as squad players but first team for the majority I feel we need more class and guile.

At the moment Kewell on the left but I dont think that is a long term solution.

Then the two in the middle would be between Javier, Xabi and Lucas with Momo sold and Gerrard on the right.

On Lucas, I think he is quite frightening. He appears to have everything to his game - the abiltiy to tackle and close down, the ability to pass the ball and the ability to break forward and make it count.

At present he looks like one of the most complete midfielders I have seen at such a young age.

[ouestlereferee]

All three are ok as squad players but first team for the majority I feel we need more class and guile.

At the moment Kewell on the left but I dont think that is a long term solution.

Then the two in the middle would be between Javier, Xabi and Lucas with Momo sold and Gerrard on the right.

On Lucas, I think he is quite frightening. He appears to have everything to his game - the abiltiy to tackle and close down, the ability to pass the ball and the ability to break forward and make it count.

At present he looks like one of the most complete midfielders I have seen at such a young age.

as you can tell i'm a big fan - but i have been surprised that he seems physically weaker than anderson - i would have thought it the other way round from their footage...

is he gonna feature tomorrow - on the bench - with the three muskateers all playing together again finally???

[Solomon Grundy]

I'm pretty sure Babel will turn out to be some player for us, but i'm not sure if he would be the perfect partner for Torres. We need somebody who can play 'in the hole' like Pandev or Diego. Somebody in the Dalglish/Beardsley type mould who can keep supplying chances for Torres, someone with real football intelligance.