Topic: 4-5-1 - The Difference!

[KopMadnezzz]

There was a marked difference between the 4-5-1 used by rafa earlier in on last season and before that and the one he used last match. The passing was much shorter than before and also more towards the wings. I believe this is not a new tactics which Rafa came up with just to neutralize Arsenal attack. I believe this is more towards the on Rafa used to have with Valencia.

The reason why Rafa could use this is because of the personal. Naturally, having 2 outright wingers had an effect, but i believe more than anything it was the presence of a natural defensive midfielder and attacking Full backs. Mascerano, alvaro and fabio were the difference for me. Before our game was too one dimensional. We would just pump the ball up to crouch and wait for people to come in. But now it was just not that.  For us we had a hell lot of variation in the way we could attack. I found 3 main ways in which we attacked.

1. As usual the masc/alonso would pump up the ball for crouch.
2. They could pass it to the wingers for a quick counter in which the wingers would "run" with the ball (for a change)
3. My fav: alonso/masc would build it up slowly until the full backs raise ahead pass it to them/ wingers and they will have a nice exchange leaving the opposite full back off..... and then the wingers would get to the byline or the wing back would have a nice deep cross for crouch to attack...

Personally I am Loving it....!

[Georgi_Angelovski]

It is much easier to play 4-5-1 when you have two great passers like Alonso and Mascherano on the team and when your wing players are having a good day ...

[Lolo]

I like this formation also. It does seem to give us more flexibility in attack. We also are allowed to use Gerrard, Alonso and Mash across the middle with 2 traditional wide men.
No more arguments about playing Gerrard on the right 

[GBF]

its a 4-5-1 minus Kuyt.  I think having a more attacking minded striker and with Stevie G supporting the striker, that is what makes it tick.  Plus all the players had an addition motivation to beat Arsenal because of the last 2 games we played against them.

[tommyboysmith1]

I think the formation worked a treat! But...... does anyone else not think Gerrard is far lkess effective playign with his back to goal. He's much more devastating facing the play, i dont like him in that "in the hole" role!

[tazskool]

It was a great display and a gret team showing as far as the style of football played.

It goes to show that Stevie is only really happy when he has a free role to play within the team and is not stuck out on the right hand side of the pitch!

Masha played well and surprising that Pennant did well on the ball as well and also his tracking back and passing were also better than normal.

Agger seemed a little overpowered with the strength of the Arsneal forwards to be honest. But hopefully he will grow on that side of his game.

One slight issue I have is that it does not really allow Kuyt into the game. Maybe some teams we play against will only allow us to play a 4-4-2 with Craig Douglas Bellamy and Kuyt upfront... who knows.

Bellamy had a knock so was out of the match and with PSV on Tuesday night I do think that is the main reason why Kuyt was on the bench and it was a 4-5-1 system.

I fully agree on the style of pressing football Liverpool played was somewhere near what they should do all season..quick passing... closign down every player with the ball and the passes (bearing a few) were to feet and spot on.

Arsenal expected everyball to be to Crouch's head and it never happened which was nice to see a variation of play.

It also goes to show that Arsenal can not cope with a tall striker at all with either of their CB's.. Both resorted to fouling and niggling Crouch as much as possible to unsettle him but he didnt give in..

Carra had another good game and I cant see why McClaren is not open to the FACT that Carra should be in the England 11 along with Crouch and Gerrard!

On an international point.. you get the feeling that Liverpool players are being forced to play out of position.. Carra, Gerrard and Finn (RoI)

[CalvinMalteseRed]

If you ask me, this 4-5-1 with Alonso and Masch, with wingers and attacking full backs is fecking hot.

[Armin]

i believe more than anything it was the presence of a natural defensive midfielder and attacking Full backs.

I agree that the personnel made the system work, both fullbacks were heavily involved. In the past we've tended to attack more down one flank but with genuine wide players and capable fullbacks we exploited every inch of the pitch. Both Aurelio and Arbeloa had great games and Mascherano was immense, covering like Sissoko but with better passing ability.

I think the formation worked a treat! But...... does anyone else not think Gerrard is far lkess effective playign with his back to goal. He's much more devastating facing the play, i dont like him in that "in the hole" role!

Did he spend much time with his back to goal? I thought Crouch did more of that. I like Gerrard in that role personally,especially against the stronger teams where his harrying can disrupt their buildup from the back. Although there was one occasion on Saturday where he laid the ball behind him precisely into the area he would naturally occupy and neither of the central midfielders had made the run. Without leaving the back door open it would be nice if Alonso could push into that space if Mascherano is covering.

It was one of the best 4 5 1 displays I've seen from Liverpool.

[KopMadnezzz]

I too agree... Gerrard plays better when he is facing the goal. A bit more deeper and he could go for those bursting runs.... but again, if it is deeper the team will lose its balance.

[bigbear]

It was a good performance but had Crouch not been on fire where are the goals coming from.

Yes, you could expect Gerrard to score 10-15 from there but there's still not enough from out wide.

The key to making that work is getting good contributions from the wide players both in terms of quality balls in to the box which we got (Gonzalez put in 2 or 3 really good balls as did Pennant) but also efforts on goal of which there were few.

I don't see many goals coming from Xabi/Masch although Xabi may get a bit more freedom.

I think this is a formation we will be using against the big sides and in Europe to ensure we control the midfield.

I don't think we will be using at home to the weaker sides.

[shanklyboy]

The difference was in the finishing, pure and simple.
If we had lost with this formation after creating tons of chances like we have done with 4-4-2 many times this season this forum would be full of the usual negativity.
"Why was Gerrard played out of position again"....."Why wasn't Kuyt playing"..."Where was Bellamy...is he going... who will we buy to replace him"..."We've got to play with 2 strikers...like ManUtd?.....Arsenal?"....."Why this, why that.....all the usual stuff!
Its all about players doing their jobs.......not necessarily about formations.
 

[Joe_Singh]

Even in a 442 formation, I can see Alonso and Mascharano having a great partnership.

I think Mascharano will be able to play just as well alongside Stevie G as well.

[Garstonite]

Even in a 442 formation, I can see Alonso and Mascharano having a great partnership.

I think Mascharano will be able to play just as well alongside Stevie G as well.

When do we ever have use a 4-4-2 system any more, though? We always have one striker leading the line and the other playing off him. Replace Crouch with Bellamy, and replace Gerrard with Kuyt, and you basically have the team we field most weeks.

The difference is Gerrard: when he plays as a central midfielder, we're not as balanced. The wingers haven't got as much freedom to get forward, as they did on Saturday, when we were basically operating with four centre halves when we were not in possession.

This leads to the same old debate: where is Gerrard's best position. It's certainly not out on the right, in my opinion, although it is very beneficial for the team, because we get Gerrard in attacking positions frequently and benefit from his great delivery from wide positions, but we miss the drive, determination and influence he has when he's in the centre. Then, we sacrifice leaving ourselves to open.

For me, playing just off the striker is his best position and it's something I hope we see more of. With three out of our four central midfielders more comfortable protecting the backline, I don't see why we shouldn't.

[GinKop]

For me, playing just off the striker is his best position and it's something I hope we see more of. With three out of our four central midfielders more comfortable protecting the backline, I don't see why we shouldn't.

The way his style of play has evolved over the seasons, he seems to be made for this role. He got forward well and gave Crouch a lot of support and got into goalscoring positions almost scoring from that Gonzalez cross.

I hope to see more of him in that position - it was a shame he couldn't see the whole match out, but it is certainly a formation Rafa should try for the remainder of the season, with the rest of our matches all being winable. We all know how devastating he can be in front of goal, and I can't see a reason why he can't still remain influential, just higher up the pitch.

Momo will have hard work getting back into the first team based on Saturday's peformance from Mascherano.

[4pool]

The difference was in the finishing, pure and simple.
If we had lost with this formation after creating tons of chances like we have done with 4-4-2 many times this season this forum would be full of the usual negativity.
"Why was Gerrard played out of position again"....."Why wasn't Kuyt playing"..."Where was Bellamy...is he going... who will we buy to replace him"..."We've got to play with 2 strikers...like ManUtd?.....Arsenal?"....."Why this, why that.....all the usual stuff!
Its all about players doing their jobs.......not necessarily about formations.
 

In one...

[Garstonite]

It's still a formation suited to playing the likes of Arsenal, Chelsea, Utd etc. And the more difficult away games too. In the 'easy' fixtures, we can afford the luxury of having Gerrard in the centre of midfield - with both him and two strikers on the pitch. Sheff Utd is a great example - only one defensive midfielder was required that day and he had very little to do.

Sometimes it's as easy as weighing up how many defensive and how many attacking players are required. Arsenal won a league title playing Petit and Vieira in the centre of the park, and neither of them are goal-getters in the mould of Gerrard, Scholes or Lampard.

Barcelona are also a case in point, switching full-backs weekly, with Belletti playing the majority of home games, while the more defensive-minded Oleguer starts most away matches.

Against Arsenal, I'd say we had 4 attacking players on the field - with 3 more in support (Alonso and two people that proved the difference, Arbeloa and Aurelio). Fortunately for us, one of the four had the game of his life. Against smaller teams, we can afford more. Off the top of my head, Watford away, we had 7 (playing a 5-2-3 formation), in you include Riise and Finnan supporting. What was the score? 3-0.

[bigbear]

When do we ever have use a 4-4-2 system any more, though? We always have one striker leading the line and the other playing off him. Replace Crouch with Bellamy, and replace Gerrard with Kuyt, and you basically have the team we field most weeks.

The difference is Gerrard: when he plays as a central midfielder, we're not as balanced. The wingers haven't got as much freedom to get forward, as they did on Saturday, when we were basically operating with four centre halves when we were not in possession.

This leads to the same old debate: where is Gerrard's best position. It's certainly not out on the right, in my opinion, although it is very beneficial for the team, because we get Gerrard in attacking positions frequently and benefit from his great delivery from wide positions, but we miss the drive, determination and influence he has when he's in the centre. Then, we sacrifice leaving ourselves to open.

For me, playing just off the striker is his best position and it's something I hope we see more of. With three out of our four central midfielders more comfortable protecting the backline, I don't see why we shouldn't.

Is there really a difference between 4-4-2 and 4-4-1-1.

Do Gerrard and Kuyt play any deeper than say Beardsley and Kenny did. They both dropped off a centre forward although arguably when Kenny first came he was the centre forward.

I think people get clever with systems and in many cases there is no difference between the old 4-4-2 and the new 4-2-3-1 or 4-1-4-4 or 4-4-1-1 there all basically variations on the same theme depending on the players in the system.

The biggest difference is that now it is deemed more usual for bigger sides to have 2 players holding in midfield possibly due to their usually being a withdrawn striker. Personally I think it's unnecessary and if United played that way then on Saturday Scholes would not have been there to score their first goal.

As for Gerrard. I think he'll play centre mid v poor sides at home when we're trying to get at sides and be open and a mixture of 3-5-2 in the middle, on the right or off the striker in big matches where we need to have protection.

It doesn't really matter as long as we're winning. The player who will play the least of the 4 will be Sissoko.

[KiNki]

sigh - been arguing for this formation for years now on rawk - basis of arguement being we've always been successful with one upfront and one playing just off the striker.

rush - kenny
aldo - beardsley
hunt - st john

the formation offers flexibilty to go with two out and out strikers and the ability for the one off - to slip back into midfield and be an extra body in there if need be.

of course in by gone years the formation has also been vastly aided by some fucking great wingers - barnes, heighway, callaghan and quality wide men - like ray kennedy - terry mac.

something i still think our current squad lacks...along with a decent striker.

but more to the point - i told yer so.

[red1977]

it worked really well,
but rafa rotates his systems regularly........and will continue to do so.
must say though we were as effective down the flanks as we have been in a long time which is very encouraging!!

[todda]

I think one of the main things that made the difference on Saturday was Masch breaking the play up and then finding either Stevie or Xabi who in turn could find a winger.  Our Midfield simply out-classed Arsenal's it was men against boys.  Hleb did nothing Fabregas did nothing the only danger they had came from Adebayor who looked very good.  Apart from him we beat them in every department.

[Red number seven]

As for Gerrard. I think he'll play centre mid v poor sides at home when we're trying to get at sides and be open and a mixture of 3-5-2 in the middle, on the right or off the striker in big matches where we need to have protection.

I think that's about right (although against the really poor sides at home he might not play at all)

I've always thought there are games where we should play 1 holder plus Gerrard (eg your Watfords and Sheff U's at home) and some games where we should play 2 holders with Gerrard either wide or pushed on (eg your Barcas and Arsenals away) The question is where do you draw the line?

Do we attack bad sides away from the off is probably the first question? As our gamebreaking players' quality improves (either by Pennant producing Saturday's perfomance week in week out, or by signing quality) the answer should surely be, increasingly, yes.


BTW agree re Momo - difficult to see where he fits in when all fit, if Masch continues to look as good as that consistently. Needs to get working on the passing!

[Guz-kop]

We played exactly the same way against Arsenal in 2004/5 (less so last season). Solid back four but width from the full backs, 2 central midfielders Alonso and Hamman(Mashcerano), wingers keeping the width in Kewell (Gonzalez) and Pongolle (Pennant), Gerrard roaming behind Mellor (Crouch), the lone man.

Obviously each component needs to work for the formation to suceed but the key imo in both games was the central trio with a purely defensive player (Hamman and Mascherano) allowing Alonso and Gerrard to push on further up the field, with less responsibility of looking over their shoulder to see what's behind them because they have a safety net. It means we get and keep the ball higher up the pitch, the wingers get the ball higher up the pitch and can take on the full back and also allows our own full backs enough time and space to move into which Arbeloa and Aurelio both did very well.

It worked well and if we maintain the shape it has a lot of potential but it's been used sparingly recently - probably because we play Alonso as the deeper of the two central midfielders.

[Rhaegar21]

sigh - been arguing for this formation for years now on rawk - basis of arguement being we've always been successful with one upfront and one playing just off the striker.

rush - kenny
aldo - beardsley
hunt - st john

Its not just us either. Think of how many sides over the years have been succesful with a system of one striker playing just behind the other. Off the top of my head:

Milan 88-91: Gullitt playing off Van Basten
Winners off a couple of European cups and leagues

United mid/early 90's: Cantona playing off Hughes
Winners of few league titles

Valencia (under Rafa): Aimar/Angulo playing off Mista
Winners of a league title and Uefa Cup

Arsenal 2002-2004: Bergkamp playing off Henry
Winners of two league titles and two FA cups

Juventus 2001-2003: Del Piero playing off Inzaghi
Winners of two league titles and European cup finalists

Italy 2006: Totti playing off Toni
Winners of the world cup

Liverpool Early 80's to 1990: Dalglish playing off Rush, and the Beardsley playing off Aldo
Winners of numerous league titles and two FA cups, and two European cups

Real Madrid 2000-2002 with raul playing just off Ronaldo
Winners of 2 league titles and 2 European Cups

Clearly Rafa has the right idea, and whether its Gerrard playing just off the striker or Kuyt, its ultimatley the same thing.

[arianaqd]

Juventus 2001-2003: Del Piero playing off Inzaghi
Winners of two league titles and European cup finalists

emm... you mean 1997-98? when the duo smashed totally over 50 balls in the back of net in one season? when Juve got league title and CL runners-up. And Zidane was also in Juve at that moment.

In 2002-2003, Inzaghi was in Milan, who got CL cup; but Del Piero was still in Juve, who got league title.

[BigV]

I agree, I think Mascherano and Aurelio have added a lot to the side with a bit more composure than Riise & Sissoko.

I think to improve further, we need the wide players need to support the striker more often, Pennant & Gonzalez dont do this enough although strangely enough on the odd occasion, Aurelio does from deeper.  The wingers need to be thinking of scoring >10 goals a season, just by having that mentality that they're goalscoring players, the pressure that puts on the opposition means the strikers & Gerrard will get more too.

[suttonoot]

I think Rafa looked at the two previous games  against Arsenal,saw us as the team with more possession
but easily caught out by their natural counter attacking style of play.

with two holding it gave us constant protection against it, and also a platform to start our own attacks

a good team performance and a great result

[Alf]

We played exactly the same way against Arsenal in 2004/5 (less so last season). Solid back four but width from the full backs, 2 central midfielders Alonso and Hamman(Mashcerano), wingers keeping the width in Kewell (Gonzalez) and Pongolle (Pennant), Gerrard roaming behind Mellor (Crouch), the lone man.

Obviously each component needs to work for the formation to suceed but the key imo in both games was the central trio with a purely defensive player (Hamman and Mascherano) allowing Alonso and Gerrard to push on further up the field, with less responsibility of looking over their shoulder to see what's behind them because they have a safety net. It means we get and keep the ball higher up the pitch, the wingers get the ball higher up the pitch and can take on the full back and also allows our own full backs enough time and space to move into which Arbeloa and Aurelio both did very well.

It worked well and if we maintain the shape it has a lot of potential but it's been used sparingly recently - probably because we play Alonso as the deeper of the two central midfielders.

Good shout I thought exactly the same thing when I read the opening post on this thread although I think Saturday's performance was more reminscent of Rafa's Valencia than it was on that day because of the personnel.

[woof]

I think Rafa looked at the two previous games  against Arsenal,saw us as the team with more possession
but easily caught out by their natural counter attacking style of play.

with two holding it gave us constant protection against it, and also a platform to start our own attacks

a good team performance and a great result

Agree with your point and it makes a world of difference when Mascherano is playing instead of Momo. He's not as quick as Momo but he passing was great and he won a number of balls. He'll be a fantastic addition to the team.

[Martyn.]

Its not just us either. Think of how many sides over the years have been succesful with a system of one striker playing just behind the other. Off the top of my head:

Milan 88-91: Gullitt playing off Van Basten
Winners off a couple of European cups and leagues

United mid/early 90's: Cantona playing off Hughes
Winners of few league titles

Valencia (under Rafa): Aimar/Angulo playing off Mista
Winners of a league title and Uefa Cup

Arsenal 2002-2004: Bergkamp playing off Henry
Winners of two league titles and two FA cups

Juventus 2001-2003: Del Piero playing off Inzaghi
Winners of two league titles and European cup finalists

Italy 2006: Totti playing off Toni
Winners of the world cup

Liverpool Early 80's to 1990: Dalglish playing off Rush, and the Beardsley playing off Aldo
Winners of numerous league titles and two FA cups, and two European cups

Real Madrid 2000-2002 with raul playing just off Ronaldo
Winners of 2 league titles and 2 European Cups

Clearly Rafa has the right idea, and whether its Gerrard playing just off the striker or Kuyt, its ultimatley the same thing.

You got some of the dates wrong there, (quick example: Ronaldo signed for Real after the World Cup in 2002). But yeah, we get the point, I just do not think it is as clear cut as you make it.

[BigV]

Yeah 2002 was Raul and Morientes.

I agree generally though, it is best to have one fulcrum for the attack and the other attacking players coming from deeper.

[Social Retard]

Hmm, i do wonder how it'll work with Mascherano, Alonso and Gerrard. The problem with different formations and a strong squad is that someone is always going to be left out. It might be a striker, a midfielder or a player being played out of position. This can lead to frailties in the squad and ultimately lowering of morale.

The rotation system works very well on a club level as it keeps the players fit but their are going to be some players who are on the edge of international call ups for big countries or fighting for places in their international sides (think Alonso and Mascherano especially) who will want to be playing week in week out to retain a place in the team.

Further forward, we currently have four first team strikers. With us playing 4-5-1 it's more likely that only one striker from the bench will get on unless their is a problem. This means we'll have at least one striker too many all ready. So let's remove Fowler from the equation and we have Bellamy, Crouch and Kuyt. We then think to the summer and think of new strikers coming in such as Voronin. That's one more striker so we assume that another player will be gone, but who? Crouch who seems to enjoy the revitalised 4-5-1 system, Kuyt who's been a fan and manager favourite all season? Bellamy who's been hit and miss but adds raw pace to our strikeforce that no-one else has. All of these players are internationals, all of them are going to want to be playing first team football at least 3 games out of 4 per month to retain their places in their respective international teams.

I then think about Liverpool's current strengths and weaknesses.

Strengths:
- Our defence
- Our ball playing defenders (Riise, Aurelio, Finnan, Agger)
- Our central midfielders
- Our height, strength and presence
- Our general ability to create chances
 
Weaknesses:
- Our wingers
- Our trickery
- Our lack of dimensions
- Our lack of inspiration at times
- Our inability to put away chances

So we've found the weakest part of Liverpool's squad - the wingers. I then think about the best players this season for Liverpool.

Reina
Finnan
Carragher
Agger
Gerrard
Kuyt
Crouch (Believe it or not, his goals tally and assists are the highest)

Then the players who have raw quality

Riise (Despite being dodgy at times)
Alonso
Arbeloa (3 brilliant performances)
Mascherano (22 years old, 20 caps for Argentina, enough said)

That gives us this team sheet:

Reina
Finnan
Arbeloa
Carragher
Agger
Riise
Mascherano
Alonso
Gerrard
Crouch
Kuyt

3-5-2 Anyone?

[BigV]

3-5-2 is a good alternative to have but generally, wingers like Robben and Ronaldo and Giggs would rip it to shreds.  I don't see Finnan or Arbeloa as centre-backs either, if we had 3, it would have to have Hyypia.

Couldn't say Riise is anything of a ball-playing defender either!

The 1 up front in a 4-5-1 doesn't necessarily mean only one forward is picked, in fact, you could look at 4-5-1 was 4-2-4 or 4-2-3-1 equally with the wingers also constituting attackers.  Having 2 out and out forwards is much more restrictive.

[Rhaegar21]

emm... you mean 1997-98? when the duo smashed totally over 50 balls in the back of net in one season? when Juve got league title and CL runners-up. And Zidane was also in Juve at that moment.

In 2002-2003, Inzaghi was in Milan, who got CL cup; but Del Piero was still in Juve, who got league title.

You're right. It was Del Piero and Trezequet

I typed my examples up in a hurry, so there are a couple of errors in players and dates. Ronaldo is another yeah

[kaz1983]

I like playing five midfielders, especially if it means having a attacking force through the middle, rather than having a striker dropping deep all the time. If we had a Del Peiro, Zola or even a Totti type forward, it would work but we don't and Kuyt doesn't suit that kind of role. If Garcia was fit I wouldn't mind him getting a run playing as a 2nd striker of either Kuyt or Crouch, now that Pennant is starting to play well out on the right.