Topic: The race to criticise – “Well SORRY for having an opinion”

[sinnermichael]

What did he say

With Virgil van Dijk back, Liverpool are still joint-favourites for the Premier League title alongside Manchester City next year, insists Paul Merson.

In his latest column, Merson insists Liverpool have been unlucky this season, and that with their best defenders back, the intensity will return and they will still be one of the teams to beat in 2021/22.

"They will be back, 100 per cent. As soon as Van Dijk is back, this is a different team. I have no doubt about that. I still think next season, they will be the team to beat. If everyone is back fit, it's 50-50 for me, heads or tails with City for the title.

It's the biggest points drop, but you have to remember the figures they were putting up last season. They were out of this world. I know they haven't been great, and they've had a load of injuries, but at half-time against Man City at home they were still in the title race, which I think is a phenomenal feat given the players they've had out.

If you asked us how Liverpool were going to start each week last season, we'd get the starting XI right nine times out of 10. It picked itself, it was such a machine. They suffocated teams.

When you gave players coming in who haven't played a lot of football, it's hard to play that tempo. If one switches off, you are punished.

When Van Dijk is in the team, Liverpool are playing on the halfway line. They win the ball back 25 yards out, then it's one pass and they score. Now they've playing with a central midfielder at centre-back and they're playing in their own half. This year I don't think they've had a lot of luck at all.

There is a drop in intensity this season, and that's because of the players coming in. The goalkeeper is, for me, the best in the world. Look at him now. There's no trust at all in the back four, and he's playing on a knife edge. It's all because of Van Dijk.

Why are Man City succeeding at the moment? They have defenders playing out of their skin. Nobody wins anything without a good defence, and at the moment Liverpool's defence is nowhere near the level they were at last year."


And on Thiago:

"Bayern Munich have the ball 99 per cent of the time. Now all of a sudden, he comes into this league, gets booked in virtually every game, then he's walking a tightrope and the intensity has to go.

He comes over here, and it just proves that this is the hardest league in the world by a million miles. But he's coming into a team that is struggling. He thinks he's getting time on the ball, trying to make things happen, but it's just hard.

When Van Dijk comes back, I think we see a better Thiago. He can see a pass like Kevin De Bruyne. But at the moment he's having to run around, get the ball back, and that pass is 40, 50 yards away from his own goal. He needs to get the ball on the edge of the box and thread it through the eye of a needle.

At the moment, it's the wrong team for him. When they start getting their best players back, and they're getting the ball to him 30 yards out, he will cause problems. I have no doubt about it.

He can't tackle, and if that was his job when they bought him, it's a bad buy. But that's not what they bought him for."

[Historical Fool]

Exactly. Leicester also lost 18 games that season, nearly fucking half of their games. City lost 9 games last season and what about the media darlings Utd? The season after their last title, they finished 7th and lost 12 games all the while smashing records of being beaten by shite at home. But Liverpool are the biggest pile of shite on earth and it's the worst ever title defence with 15 games to play. The absolute fucking clowns.

It’s strange criticism of the media because this attitude or opinion that ‘omgomg this is the worst title defence ever in history’ does appear to be trending in recent post match threads, and it’s 5 star posters that are saying it, not the media.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Merson hasn't made more sense in all of his life until now

[FowlerLegend]

I think if we had signed a CB in the first week of January the criticism would likely be less vocal.

Would agree with this. If Pearce is correct and owners waited until Matip completely broke to authorise a move for a centre half was crazy. Risking CL qualification for the cost of Caleta Car was not the smartest financial move.

[Jookie]

I think if we had signed a CB in the first week of January the criticism would likely be less vocal.

I agree with this and I think 99.9% of Liverpool supporters would have wanted a centre back on January 1st.

But there's a bit of revisionism by some with the benefit of hindsight. On January 1st, despite coming off 2 draws with Newcastle and West Brom in the Xmas break, we were top. We had 33 points from 16 games. We'd conceded 9 goals in the 12 league games since Virgil was injured and we'd easily navigated a potentially tough CL group at the same time. We were 7 points ahead of 4th, albeit that some teams had games in hand.

The continued injuries (not just at centre back), the loss of form by some players and tiredness have caught up with us in the last 6 weeks. Like I said, we all would have wanted a centre back on January 1st but there was always going to be a gamble one way or the other given the global pandemic and it's effect on finances. Someone at the club (and we don't know 100% it's FSG) decided we didn't need to roll the dice on a centre back on January 1st. We rolled the same dice in summer 2020 when we bought Thiago as a Lovren replacement. In hindsight. not buying a centre back on either occasions wasn't the correct call. However, even on 1st January it wasn't the slam dunk decision many are suggesting now given a) we are well set for a title challenge never mind 4th and b) it would have had an impact on future finances/transfer kitty.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

I think if we had signed a CB in the first week of January the criticism would likely be less vocal.

I know I wouldn't be calling them out.I've stuck up for them each and every window,telling myself that they were saving money for the bigger buys but this time was different as our whole season depended on it.

[mickeydocs]

Merson

Merson is no fan of Liverpool yet he can see what many of our own supporters can't see.
This team needs some minor changes, not open heart surgery. We'll be back next season.

[mickeydocs]

Ieven on 1st January it wasn't the slam dunk decision many are suggesting now given a) we are well set for a title challenge never mind 4th and b) it would have had an impact on future finances/transfer kitty.

So the loss of Vvd and Gomez and Matip's injury record didn't scream out that we needed to get a CB in?
It was clear to most of us that this was essential.
The only ones to blame if we do not make the CL will be FSG.

[Bobinhood]

It was clear to most of us, in fact all of us and the entire football world, that we really really needed a left back until Milner played there all year. Subsequently we got robbo on a bargain and in the meantime the savings on the budget combined with Ragnar cheap and Matip on a free went allowed us to bring in gini and sadio in that window. If we had bought a lb one of gini or  sadio plus robbo would not likely be in the squad

Simple thing is, based on track record they have a preferred player or maybe a list of 3 they want to get in for that spot and they didn't want to blow that budget on a 6 month stop gap that might only play for us 10 times. Simply having the need is only part of the story. so it looks like they arranged to bring in #3 on a trial, so imo they have nailed it even though its not perfect like people demand it should be.

Yes its true that the team looks likely to suffer this season, possibly more than expected, because they didn't move quickly to bring in a cb in jan. Well, life is like a box of chocolates. every now and then you get shrimp.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

It was clear to most of us, in fact all of us and the entire football world, that we really really needed a left back until Milner played there all year. Subsequently we got robbo on a bargain and in the meantime the savings on the budget combined with Ragnar cheap and Matip on a free went allowed us to bring in gini and sadio in that window. If we had bought a lb one of gini or  sadio plus robbo would not likely be in the squad

Simple thing is, based on track record they have a preferred player or maybe a list of 3 they want to get in for that spot and they didn't want to blow that budget on a 6 month stop gap that might only play for us 10 times. Simply having the need is only part of the story. so it looks like they arranged to bring in #3 on a trial, so imo they have nailed it even though its not perfect like people demand it should be.

Yes its true that the team looks likely to suffer this season, possibly more than expected, because they didn't move quickly to bring in a cb in jan. Well, life is like a box of chocolates. every now and then you get shrimp.

Barrel well and truly scraped.

And it doesn't look likely because it has happened and if/when we miss out on the CL the money you guys talk about saving will be fucking peanuts.

[Willy Poolman]

Refreshing to read that contribution from Merson. Who would have thought it? Perhaps his views might trickle down to some of the other commentators who have refused to acknowledge that Liverpool have been doing it tough in a bizarre season.

On the claims we should have brought in a new centre back at the start of January: there is no guarantee that anyone brought in at that point would have hit the ground running and stopped the slide that set in. That person would now be under the hammer, accused of being as bad a recruit as Thiago is alleged to be. No one individual could possibly patch over the dreadful setbacks we have endured and is bound to become the target of the frustration. Totally unrealistic expectations on the part of some.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Refreshing to read that contribution from Merson. Who would have thought it? Perhaps his views might trickle down to some of the other commentators who have refused to acknowledge that Liverpool have been doing it tough in a bizarre season.

On the claims we should have brought in a new centre back at the start of January: there is no guarantee that anyone brought in at that point would have hit the ground running and stopped the slide that set in. That person would now be under the hammer, accused of being as bad a recruit as Thiago is alleged to be. No one individual could possibly patch over the dreadful setbacks we have endured and is bound to become the target of the frustration. Totally unrealistic expectations on the part of some.

Klopp wanted one and should have been backed end of story & anybody claiming that Thiago is a bad signing should stick to watching Poker on the tv because they've not a fucking clue about this footy lark.

[Timbo's Goals]

Tolstoy: “All happy families are alike; each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way.”

The point, I think, being that there's more to discuss - and frankly, it's more 'interesting'; ultimately this is a place for people to waste their own time and exchange ideas, rather than actually materially 'solve' any issues affecting the football side of things - when things are going badly than when they're going well. I've barely looked at the football threads here in two years - there are only so many ways of saying "Yeah, we're great". No doubt those few posters who did raise minor negatives in the good times were lambasted for not being able to enjoy it .

Of course, there's a way of presenting arguments which are critical or just plain scared about the club. And those making those arguments should be aware (and not then react) that some people really don't want to hear it and do think our job (and this forum) should be primarily or even wholly supportive, positive and a counter to perceived negativity from other clubs' fans, pundits and the media. Certainly allowing an escalation of negativity can have real world consequences for the club if it's allowed to promote a view that 'the fans' have 'turned'.

I think there are reasons to be fearful, regardless of the bizarre circumstances, without (giving or receiving) abuse, apportioning blame or being assumed to be stepping down an inevitable road to 'Klopp out'. But that's a difficult discussion to pitch when emotions are high.

I've made it abundantly clear in this thread, in the Bobby Firmino thread and in the injury ravaged season thread exactly where I'm coming from and where I feel we all should be in respect of refraining from excessive criticism - such as Bobby's had his chips or the team needs an overhaul or even that Juurgen should be given another season at least [this was actually said] - at this particular time when the team has been fucked left, right and centre. If you don't take the points myself and others have made in this regard then that's up to you mate.

BTW - Tolstoy's fucking shite. Far preferred Tostao 

[Timbo's Goals]

Klopp wanted one and should have been backed end of story & anybody claiming that Thiago is a bad signing should stick to watching Poker on the tv because they've not a fucking clue about this footy lark.

Had it not been for the impact and uncertainty of Covid, I'm sure he would have been. Sadly they took the decision to go with three and Fabiho as stand-by and it's backfired on them and us. That said nobody can cater for all three central defenders getting fucked and the main stand-by being in and out like a fiddler's elbow with repeated niggling injuries. Nobody. So as far as I'm concerned we stop fucking whining about that water under the bridge and get on with it. Just like jurgen

[Bobinhood]

Barrel well and truly scraped.

And it doesn't look likely because it has happened and if/when we miss out on the CL the money you guys talk about saving will be fucking peanuts.

That highlighted part 1s called humor lad. A joke. you dont actually get shrimp in your chocolates, but in the movie he has a boat and ......oh never mind.

sometimes our brain trust take calculated risks in order to compete with the oil states and when you take risks you dont always win. Feverish finger pointing when you dont win doesn't change anything, doesn't help and most of all doesn't mean it wasnt worth taking the risk. They knew we needed a centre back as soon as lovren left, probably for a year before that, but they thought we had lots of cover so they took a risk and it appears not to have paid off this time. so they have gone ahead and fixed it as best they could in the short term without screwing up the long term plan.

they are demonstrably not the mooted idiots portrayed, they simply had a plan not work perfectly because of plain old bad luck. They have said from the start the team has to be self financing and in this last couple of years they have spent a wack of cash for the long term betterment of the club on expansion, axa, expansion again and also the playing staff in salary terms. now they have remedied this unforeseen situation up by providing davies and kabak, inside the budget more or less.

the plan as it was working took us to 3 European finals and won us a Prem, so im willing to accept with the rough patch we have encountered with as much as i dislike it, and still feel that they have a pretty good idea of what they are doing and how to do it in that front office.

[HomesickRed]

That highlighted part 1s called humor lad. A joke. you dont actually get shrimp in your chocolates, but in the movie he has a boat and ......oh never mind.

sometimes our brain trust take calculated risks in order to compete with the oil states and when you take risks you dont always win. Feverish finger pointing when you dont win doesn't change anything, doesn't help and most of all doesn't mean it wasnt worth taking the risk. They knew we needed a centre back as soon as lovren left, probably for a year before that, but they thought we had lots of cover so they took a risk and it appears not to have paid off this time. so they have gone ahead and fixed it as best they could in the short term without screwing up the long term plan.

they are demonstrably not the mooted idiots portrayed, they simply had a plan not work perfectly because of plain old bad luck. They have said from the start the team has to be self financing and in this last couple of years they have spent a wack of cash for the long term betterment of the club on expansion, axa, expansion again and also the playing staff in salary terms. now they have remedied this unforeseen situation up by providing davies and kabak, inside the budget more or less.

the plan as it was working took us to 3 European finals and won us a Prem, so im willing to accept with the rough patch we have encountered with as much as i dislike it, and still feel that they have a pretty good idea of what they are doing and how to do it in that front office.

Fair summary. We missed a trick not getting a defender and another striker to replace Origi in the close season. Since then the god's and Lady Luck have conspired against us. We probably would have struggled anyway but we could have been better prepared at least.

For all the naysayers, Klopp has not suddenly discovered he cannot trust Williams, Phillips and Origi anywhere near the first team. He knew it before the season even started.

Fingers crossed our luck --- and results --- will turn sooner rather than later, because up until recently, our general plan was working wonders.

[ToneLa]

I think if we had signed a CB in the first week of January the criticism would likely be less vocal.

*looks at Kabak thread* 

[redmark]

I've made it abundantly clear in this thread, in the Bobby Firmino thread and in the injury ravaged season thread exactly where I'm coming from and where I feel we all should be in respect of refraining from excessive criticism - such as Bobby's had his chips or the team needs an overhaul or even that Juurgen should be given another season at least [this was actually said] - at this particular time when the team has been fucked left, right and centre. If you don't take the points myself and others have made in this regard then that's up to you mate.

BTW - Tolstoy's fucking shite. Far preferred Tostao 

Obviously 'excessive' is bad (as one of my favourite teachers a long time ago said, "too much of anything is bad for you - that's what too much means"). The point is who/how/where we define excessive. Opinion, criticism, worry, fear, general miserableness is inevitable. Most social media doesn't offer a good format for any kind of nuanced discussion; RAWK can (and sometimes doesn't). I'm not sure I'm particularly desperate to take part myself, but this was the first place I came to see what intelligent Liverpool fans thought about the situation in more than 280 characters - which incidentally is the format I think we should try and be overwhelmingly supportive/positive in, as it's most visible to players and staff. Though football twitter is even worse than political twitter...

I don't really disagree with your point that without supporters in the ground, what we say online is more important than ever, though; and I'm not going to expend much energy on defending anyone's right to politely and respectfully discuss issues on RAWK, let alone abuse or disrespect. Only to briefly offer my own, that some degree of negativity (at least the merely worried tone, rather than more malicious or triumphant 'I told you so') is inevitable in the circumstances. If the RAWK definition of 'excessive' in the circumstances is 'any', rather than rightly calling out the particularly moronic and excessive, that's fine.

[Jookie]

So the loss of Vvd and Gomez and Matip's injury record didn't scream out that we needed to get a CB in?
It was clear to most of us that this was essential.
The only ones to blame if we do not make the CL will be FSG.

Why do we need to blame anyone?

I don’t think there’s any one  thing or decision that alone has got us into this situation. For me it’s the combination of a number of factors and decisions that have added up to give us the current less than ideal situation. Some aspects have more weight than others. My personal opinion is the the global pandemic is the biggest driver since it probably inhibited players sales last summer, and therefore our purchasing power in summer 2020 and Jan 2021. I think the van Dijk injury was also a factor. I’m not sure reversing either of these things in isolation gets us to a dominant team this season. Mainly because it’s more complicated than that and more factors involved -some of our own doing but a load that are out of the control of anyone at the club.

Buying a centre back on Jan 1st probably would have helped. I don’t think it’s as big a factor as some people seem to think. We lost a lot of games since early January and I’m not sure a new CB alone would have solved that. Mainly because whilst a lot of issues stem from centre back buying one in January was not going to be the same as putting a prime VvD in the team. It was always going to be a compromise due to availability. It probably would have helped. By how much though?

I think my issue is that people look at complex situations, with many factors involved, and think if 1 thing was changed then everything would have been fine. This relates to everything from politics to sports team. Personally, I see not getting a CB in January as a small piece of the wider issues we currently have. The same fir not buying a 4th choice centre back in summer. I think it’s simplistic to think these 2 decisions alone derailed our season. Others are obviously welcome to think differently.

[afc tukrish]

Why do we need to blame anyone?

Because it permits those apportioning the blame a sense of superiority...

[Jookie]

Because it permits those apportioning the blame a sense of superiority...

I don’t think it’s a sense of superiority.

I think it’s easier to process if you can pin an issue on 1 factor and therefore apportion blame to one thing or individual. FSG are a easy target when the manager is universally popular and the players have delivered a CL and PL.

FSG have obviously made mistakes or at the very least been part of the decision making process. I dare to suggest Klopp has also. Maybe not in January. But I’d be amazed if he was part of the decision process to sell Lovren and buy others (including the decision to utilise Fabinho as 4th choice cb). They are only small things individually though. It’s the combination of factors that have got us to this situation. At lot of those are down to luck and out of the clubs control.

That’s why I find it hard to blame any one thing, individual or group of people. Doesn’t help me to focus my anger and disappointment on any one individual or thing but it’s probably closer to the truth that this season has been the perfect storm of anything that could go wrong, going wrong. It’s crap but don’t think the in fighting or finger pointing is deserved or helpful in any way. Whether those fingers are being pointed at FSG, Klopp or the players.

[Son of Spion]

I don’t think it’s a sense of superiority.

I think it’s easier to process if you can pin an issue on 1 factor and therefore apportion blame to one thing or individual. FSG are a easy target when the manager is universally popular and the players have delivered a CL and PL.

FSG have obviously made mistakes or at the very least been part of the decision making process. I dare to suggest Klopp has also. Maybe not in January. But I’d be amazed if he was part of the decision process to sell Lovren and buy others (including the decision to utilise Fabinho as 4th choice cb). They are only small things individually though. It’s the combination of factors that have got us to this situation. At lot of those are down to luck and out of the clubs control.

That’s why I find it hard to blame any one thing, individual or group of people. Doesn’t help me to focus my anger and disappointment on any one individual or thing but it’s probably closer to the truth that this season has been the perfect storm of anything that could go wrong, going wrong. It’s crap but don’t think the in fighting or finger pointing is deserved or helpful in any way. Whether those fingers are being pointed at FSG, Klopp or the players.

For me, the point you made about processing things is highly relevant.

Human beings, quite naturally, do not like uncertainty. They do not like feeling that their world is out of their control. With this in mind, people like, and often need, simple explanations to complex issues. They/we either cannot or will not deal with the full reality of a situation, so will focus on just one aspect of it instead.

Look at the Covid pandemic for instance. Such a life-changing world event that is so far out of our control that it's incredibly difficult to process. Now a great way to cut out all the pain, all the uncertainty, all the worry etc is to look for a simple answer to explain it all away. Hey presto! You buy into a conspiracy theory that suggests it's all a hoax and doesn't exist anyway. What a great way of opting out of having to actually process the truth.

With our season, and I've said it a thousand times, it's a monumental collection of factors that see us where we currently stand. Success is made up of a multitude of positive things coming together at the same time, and it's the same with our current plight. It's not one factor, or two, not even three. It's an avalanche of negative factors arriving in a very short time frame. To be fair, I think the club have handled it better than most would have.

Fair dos, i think not having a new centre back sorted early in the transfer window was a big mistake, but our current situation is down to infinitely more factors than just that one. Yes, it would be easy to pin everything on FSG or another easy scapegoat, but although that may make us feel better inside on a personal level, it also ignores the wider reality of the situation.

Of course, it's much harder to process and accept that the situation is complex rather than simple, so it's much easier to pick on one thing, one person, one circumstance and blame that instead. By believing we know the real answer, we claw back a sense of control in a situation we actually have no control over at all. This is also how conspiracy theorists deal with Covid. By believing that they alone know the truth and the answers, and the rest do not. This then relieves them of any need to process reality, and that suits them, because reality is painful.

Edit:
It's also worth mentioning how the above is exactly how Bitters deal with their own reality. Rather than process and accept the multitude of mistakes that have left them in the mess they're in, they look outside of themselves for scapegoats to criticise and blame. In their care, it's all the fault of the 'RS'. The blame game absolves them of any need to bother to process the actual, painful reality.

[Eeyore]

I agree with this and I think 99.9% of Liverpool supporters would have wanted a centre back on January 1st.

But there's a bit of revisionism by some with the benefit of hindsight. On January 1st, despite coming off 2 draws with Newcastle and West Brom in the Xmas break, we were top. We had 33 points from 16 games. We'd conceded 9 goals in the 12 league games since Virgil was injured and we'd easily navigated a potentially tough CL group at the same time. We were 7 points ahead of 4th, albeit that some teams had games in hand.

The continued injuries (not just at centre back), the loss of form by some players and tiredness have caught up with us in the last 6 weeks. Like I said, we all would have wanted a centre back on January 1st but there was always going to be a gamble one way or the other given the global pandemic and it's effect on finances. Someone at the club (and we don't know 100% it's FSG) decided we didn't need to roll the dice on a centre back on January 1st. We rolled the same dice in summer 2020 when we bought Thiago as a Lovren replacement. In hindsight. not buying a centre back on either occasions wasn't the correct call. However, even on 1st January it wasn't the slam dunk decision many are suggesting now given a) we are well set for a title challenge never mind 4th and b) it would have had an impact on future finances/transfer kitty.

The second Joe Gomez got ruled out for the season then it became a slam dunk. His injury meant the only senior centre back at the Club was Matip. A player who simply cannot play two games a week for an extended period.

[afc tukrish]

The second Joe Gomez got ruled out for the season then it became a slam dunk. His injury meant the only senior centre back at the Club was Matip. A player who simply cannot play two games a week for an extended period.

Superiority...

[John C]

So the loss of Vvd and Gomez and Matip's injury record didn't scream out that we needed to get a CB in?
It was clear to most of us that this was essential.
The only ones to blame if we do not make the CL will be FSG.

That's absolutely not true mickey. For large parts of the season we've failed to score enough to win a game. That hasn't necessarily been through lack of creativity from MF but often because we've been impotent in the final 3rd.


The general injuries have decimated us, but you can't blame it all on the CB's absence and ignore goalie errors.


And significantly I can't ever remember a season when officials decisions have cost us points as well as awarded points in games for other teams. Like Maguires hand ball in the last second against WHU, etc. There's been loads of examples.


Plus the lack of a crowd meaning we can't give the team an extra 10% at the home games.


It's a combination of many things that make it a sheet of shit of a season.

[Jookie]

The second Joe Gomez got ruled out for the season then it became a slam dunk. His injury meant the only senior centre back at the Club was Matip. A player who simply cannot play two games a week for an extended period.

The availability of players and lack of funds would never make it a slam dunk decision. The fact we were coping well up to 1st January probably had some small part to play.

I refuse to believe that a club that’s worked meticulously to build a competitive squad that won a CL and PL, by using funds to retain players and add to that on a reasonably consistent basis, thought f**k it we can do without in January. I think funds would have been tight due to circumstances and player availability would have been severely restricted so getting someone in on January 1st was never going to be easy. I think the club probably tried to but that’s an educated guess based on how I’ve seen them operate over the last 3-4 years. In the same way you are having an educated guess on the assumption that FSG are either (a) holding money back from the club or (b) should be moving away from the current strategy and investing money, in the form of loans, into the club.

[Willy Poolman]

Had it not been for the impact and uncertainty of Covid, I'm sure he would have been. Sadly they took the decision to go with three and Fabiho as stand-by and it's backfired on them and us. That said nobody can cater for all three central defenders getting fucked and the main stand-by being in and out like a fiddler's elbow with repeated niggling injuries. Nobody. So as far as I'm concerned we stop fucking whining about that water under the bridge and get on with it. Just like jurgen

Exactly TG. We can only assume that the decision not to bring in another centre back was based on a careful assessment of the probabilities - as they were calculated at the time - and the risk was taken. No-one could have foreseen the improbable events occurring as they have done or concluding we should go ahead with making a deal, "just in case". That is not how important business decisions are made. Before anyone objects - yes, it is a business. It is not what I would prefer, but it is what it is, so I have to suck it up and make the best of it.

My other point is that the decision-making process would also presumably have included the risks of bringing in someone (anyone some had insisted). There was no guarantee that a good fit could be targetted, brought in, and assured of hitting the ground running in January. We would thus be in the same place we were at the end of January anyway. No calculation of relative risk is ever easy, but 20-20 hindsight can tempt us to overlook the realistic appraisals we could make back then.

So, as you say TG, this is were we stand mid-February, and we have to make the best of it. Give the team and the manager our support and we might just make something of this season. The latest result should surely give us all a bit more reason to be optimistic?

[Ratboy3G]

The availability of players and lack of funds would never make it a slam dunk decision. The fact we were coping well up to 1st January probably had some small part to play.

I refuse to believe that a club that’s worked meticulously to build a competitive squad that won a CL and PL, by using funds to retain players and add to that on a reasonably consistent basis, thought f**k it we can do without in January. I think funds would have been tight due to circumstances and player availability would have been severely restricted so getting someone in on January 1st was never going to be easy. I think the club probably tried to but that’s an educated guess based on how I’ve seen them operate over the last 3-4 years. In the same way you are having an educated guess on the assumption that FSG are either (a) holding money back from the club or (b) should be moving away from the current strategy and investing money, in the form of loans, into the club.

This is spot on mate
I'm sure I heard on TAW that Schalke wanted £30m for Kabak at the start of January, then settled for a loan with option to buy if £18m. The world and his dog knew we were after a centre back on Jan 1st, so doubled their prices. We were never gonna be the ones to blink first and that's one of the things we've praised the club for over recent years.

[Ghost Town]

Thanks for acknowledging.
I just find it strange..

Have you ever read a book about an historical figure, then after that book which raised different thoughts about how that person's role in an event was shaped from a different angle?

Have you ever watched a documentary on a topic - but seen it in a different light thereafter or it has raised certain questions that you wouldn't have thought about before?

Have you ever met a girl/guy you fancied - and after a relationship with them think about them in a different way and your future relationship with them?

The media/pundits etc will make ridiculous comments about our situation, we know better, but to say that it cannot raise any questions you have about our future without being labelled as a pessimist or spun by the media is ridiculous. It happens all the time in other areas of life.

I'm not saying getting carried away with their agendas is fine. Its not.
But there is such a thing as seeing a topic of conversation, and then ignoring the outrageous elements but have a reasoned discussion with people who are supposed to be like-minded

While the thread seems to have moved away from its original purpose and become another generic, beige transfer/FSG thread, I'm gonna step back and call bullshit on this. There's plenty of debate and discussion here, reasoned and otherwise, on a myriad of subjects, real and speculative, without anyone stopping it. Normally when someone starts crying about 'we're not allowed to talk about anything' it's because they've said something daft or in a daft way and been called out for it.

I'm no-one to give advice on the matter but for what its worth I would suggest that opprobrium is attracted less by what is said than by the way it is said. If people could modulate the way they say things esp. when heading into contentious or dangerous territory they'd probably find they are fine and a good debate can ensue.

I'd also suggest that just because one thinks something does not mean one always has to say it out loud (or posting it on a forum). We all have angry or irritable or moany thoughts from time to time about the club, the team or individual players...is it always worth posting them? Esp when it's just emotion talking and you'll calm down and change your mind pretty soon? A bit of compsure and restraint does no harm

Many pronounce themselves as reasoned debaters but when you come down to it it's just the same tired kneejerk shite watered down from twitter. People play about with rhetoric but at heart, some people are only comfortable being negative. Nothing wrong with that per se but I just don't want to hear it.

Exactly. Some stuff deserves to be called kneejerk and bedwetting because it just is, no matter how the poster tries to wrap it up with weasel words.

[Golyo]

So the loss of Vvd and Gomez and Matip's injury record didn't scream out that we needed to get a CB in?
It was clear to most of us that this was essential.
The only ones to blame if we do not make the CL will be FSG.

We have seen in the last 11 years that these owners stick to their principles. The club simply didn't have the money to buy players. Hence the last minute buy and loan for a net spend of 1.5 mil.

[Fitzy.]

I was intrigued by a poster in the half time thread who suggested it was ok to slag the team off given recent performances. I'd say that was fair, apart from the fact that there have been half time posters coming up with the exact same half time analysis for 3 years...even when we were in the thick of record breaking runs.

Just because it seems ok now...I see you...I see what you've always been.

Cheers.