Topic: Liverpool 180 on furlough decision

[Motty]

Spurs reversed their decision to furlough now.

[Motty]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/sport/amp/football/52271235

[redgriffin73]

Those Spurs quotes are odd (or just badly worded), unless I'm reading them wrong, they just make it sound like they are now paying the staff the 20% that they weren't before to make it up to 100% rather than actually taking them off furlough.

[Dim Glas]

Those Spurs quotes are odd (or just badly worded), unless I'm reading them wrong, they just make it sound like they are now paying the staff the 20% that they weren't before to make it up to 100% rather than actually taking them off furlough.

The quote on Spurs official website deosn't make it clear either:

'In our last update we said we would keep our position under review, especially in the context of revised budgets and cost cutting. Having done so we have decided that all non-playing staff, whether full-time, casual or furloughed, will receive 100 per cent of their pay for April and May. Only the Board will take salary reductions.'


Considering all the fuss, I'd have though they'd have made the distinction between who's paying the furloughed staff all the salary, but they don't actually say they are now doing so.

[Iska]

They’re quite clearly now making up the 20% but leaving them on furlough.  They wouldn’t say: ”all non-playing staff, whether full-time, casual or furloughed” if they were taking them off furlough.

[Dim Glas]

so why does everyone in the media think they reversed it then? It's like I'm missing something obvious  I admit I have not read much about it other than their statement, and the stuff on the BBC.

[CraigDS]

They’re quite clearly now making up the 20% but leaving them on furlough.  They wouldn’t say: ”all non-playing staff, whether full-time, casual or furloughed” if they were taking them off furlough.

Furlough simply means being off work.

[Iska]

Furlough simply means being off work.

What I mean is that if they were taking them off furlough, then in that quote ‘furloughed’ wouldn’t be a separate category of workers.

[Iska]

Though there’s a different quote in the Guardian’s story which says “it is not our intention to make use of the [furlough] scheme that runs until the end of May”, so who knows?  If that’s right, then they have followed us.

[Dim Glas]

Though there’s a different quote in the Guardian’s story which says “it is not our intention to make use of the [furlough] scheme that runs until the end of May”, so who knows?  If that’s right, then they have followed us.

That's a bit clearer, sounds like the statement was a bit poorly written! Nothing wrong with them being furloughed of course, being as people who had an issues - had it with who was paying the money! 

Anyway, it took 'em long enough!

[LovelyCushionedHeader]

What I mean is that if they were taking them off furlough, then in that quote ‘furloughed’ wouldn’t be a separate category of workers.

They will still be furloughed though, which is Craig's point. Furloughed just means still employed but no longer required to do work; the original definition of the word has nothing to do with the Government. So Tottenham can furlough an employee and pay them 100% of their salary themselves. Sheffield United have done this.

Before Covid-19, a furloughed employee would generally be told not to work and would receive no pay, but had the security of still having a job when things within their company picked up. It was just an alternative to letting people go.

[Iska]

They will still be furloughed though, which is Craig's point. Furloughed just means still employed but no longer required to do work; the original definition of the word has nothing to do with the Government. So Tottenham can furlough an employee and pay them 100% of their salary themselves. Sheffield United have done this.

Ah, I see what you mean.  I just assumed that if Spurs were paying, nobody would care whether they were still having to work or not?  I don’t think anybody’s taken issue with that side of it, though I suppose there’s always somebody capable of working up a rage about anything.

[LovelyCushionedHeader]

Ah, I see what you mean.  I just assumed that if Spurs were paying, nobody would care whether they were still having to work or not?  I don’t think anybody’s taken issue with that side of it, though I suppose there’s always somebody capable of working up a rage about anything.

Yeah I think they've kept the term furloughed in to make sure nobody thought those that had been furloughed would now be required to go into work.

[elsewhere]

they would do anything furlough, but they won't do that 

"Maybe they are crazy, but it's crazy and it's true
I know they can save money,  no-one else can save money now but them"

[oojason]

.
From r/LiverpoolFC (the mods on there believe the following post - "We've done our best to verify OP's identity, and we're satisfied that this is legitimate.")...


'LFC Staff using charities to survive lockdown':-

https://www.reddit.com/r/LiverpoolFC/comments/jicguc/lfc_staff_using_charities_to_survive_lockdown


'I work for Liverpool Football Club in a number of different roles, one of which is at the tour and museum centre.I thought you would all like to know the feeling on the ground., in the first lockdown anfield tour centre staff were given an average wage by the club after the failed attempt at a furlough claim due to the negative press, this was very helpful as about 60 members of casual staff lost their income and could have been destitute without.

What do I mean by casual staff? the majority are casual staff at tour and museum, zero hour direct employees of Liverpool some of whom work 4-5 times a week spanning many years at the club, casual only in name and rights but often full time in commitment. this suits many of us as we are retiree's but some of the younger men and women rely solely on the club for income.

This is not an attack on the club but feel this context is important for what is happening at the moment.

what has happened in the last few weeks has been far worse, the club have started sending the shifts out on a daily basis with most people not receiving any at all.the feeling at the club is that the place should be closed due to lack of visitor numbers thanks to lockdown/covid anxiety but the club don't want to do that as they will have to compensate the staff again, they are instead left in limbo. it is unfortunately much more viable to reduce the shifts of most to zero and leave them to walk alone whilst this all blows over.

Some members of staff have set up an in house charity where we can drop off food and money for other members of staff to come in and receive no questions asked, this is crazy at a club like Liverpool .Many long term employee's using charities and claiming Universal credit (we all know how long that takes to come in) does not tide well with YNWA,

I have attached a couple of screenshots from the in house whatsapp messaging group to give you a feel for the problem, names and numbers blurred.

I am making an account here under a pseudonym to protect my self.

edit: reposted as a username was visible


https://preview.redd.it/teuuznvt5fv51.png?width=564&format=png&auto=webp&s=88eecc09441a0259837aeb946812ccbfd025d75a ...




https://preview.redd.it/4yo6atvt5fv51.png?width=913&format=png&auto=webp&s=73e683fa64afad1bf0894630486061129295eb31'...




IF true, then the mod post on there says it all (https://www.reddit.com/r/LiverpoolFC/comments/jicguc/lfc_staff_using_charities_to_survive_lockdown/ga5ozra/)...

"It's also all very disappointing, but not surprising. Zero Hours contracts are bullshit, and this club shouldn't be exploiting that. Hope the attention will help shame them into taking care of the staff.

EDIT: Just to be clear, we believe this story but we can't vouch for everything being accurate, it's just an accusation right now. We just felt it was important for it to be addressed. Several people have already tweeted the usual LFC journalists about it, so hopefully we should get some clarity (and some changes, if this is true) soon."

[kavah]

^ Yes Zero hour (and temp workers that are in reality permanent) contracts are shit, feel bad for our staff, and everyone else affected at the moment.

The wider issue and outlook regarding jobs in hospitality and entertainment is truly bleak.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Maybe post a screenshot to Henry and his Mrs twitter & insta accounts and also as many players and staff as possible & if ignored post again & again until they acknowledge the post.

[Ghost Town]

Doesn't sound great. Don't want to say much until things become a bit clearer, but doesn't sound great.

[RainbowFlick]

In and out of football I think people are almost just expecting this unfortunately. I sent it to a few people who seemed surprisingly unmoved.

We could very easily raise healthy sums of money as a global fanbase to assist but ultimately it's the club (and its billionaire owners) who are the ones able to address the root cause.

[robertobaggio37]

Tweeted it to most of our journos as many have as well, unsurprisingly nothing came out of it... yet. Hope this will get more traction.

[K-Lo]

So sad to hear about this. Truly sorry for the ones who keep the club ticking over off the pitch, living with this constant insecurity.
At a time when most involved in the game are coming out in support of Marcus Rashford's attempts to wake up the government, our owners are letting themselves down very badly. How empty life must be to live with only money as a goal and no real empathy for the lives of others. I guess that's why they become wealthy in the first place.

FSG have been very smart in the way they have run the club and brought it back from the brink but unfortunately they have shown themselves to be deeply lacking as human beings.

[matt_lfc]

Disgusting if true, after all the press recently, a multi billion pound club and owners that can afford to pay the staff in these bad times is treating its staff very unfairly.

[Snail]

That's a disgrace.

[CraigDS]

Don’t see much of an issue with the zero hours as seems most the employees are happy with / want that - however not giving them the average hours like they previously did during lockdown, and leaving things totally unknown until on the day, is pretty shitty.

Hopefully this is a case of middle management making a poor call and will be changed once the top bosses get wind.

[gazzalfc]

I've bought 2 vouchers for me and my dad for Christmas to do the tour and museum.

Thinking I might give them to him early so we can go in and support the staff

[PhilV]

^ Yes Zero hour (and temp workers that are in reality permanent) contracts are shit, feel bad for our staff, and everyone else affected at the moment.

The wider issue and outlook regarding jobs in hospitality and entertainment is truly bleak.

I am going to wait for the story to develop further before commenting but if true I wouldn't put 100% blame on LFC for this. More of a business thing in this day and age.

Zero hour contracts are a thing in this day and age, that in itself is the problem, personally don't agree with them but generally they suit both parties here, until it doesn't. As the poster of the accusations said, most are retirees and the zero hour contracts works for them too.

Let's wait to hear further before jumping on it with pitchforks, no?

[kloppismydad]

Are these people directly contracted with the club or are they through a 3rd party company?

Regardless, I doubt these people make a significant sum of money and it's a bit sad that we have to hear such stories. Hopefully, the club takes immediate cognizance of this and corrective action is taken. It will reflect poorly on the club otherwise.

[rob1966]

Don’t see much of an issue with the zero hours as seems most the employees are happy with / want that - however not giving them the average hours like they previously did during lockdown, and leaving things totally unknown until on the day, is pretty shitty.

Hopefully this is a case of middle management making a poor call and will be changed once the top bosses get wind.

My HGV job is zero hours, it suits me as I can work as and when I need to, they can offer me work and I can turn it down. The downside is when there is no work, but I knew that when I started working there. The HR dept will just be following HR rules and the top guys won't be aware, they pay people to run these depts.

I'm sure once Hendo or Klopp is made aware of this, things will be said and done internally to help the staff out.

[Hendollama]

I am going to wait for the story to develop further before commenting but if true I wouldn't put 100% blame on LFC for this. More of a business thing in this day and age.

Zero hour contracts are a thing in this day and age, that in itself is the problem, personally don't agree with them but generally they suit both parties here, until it doesn't. As the poster of the accusations said, most are retirees and the zero hour contracts works for them too.

Let's wait to hear further before jumping on it with pitchforks, no?

As per my understanding, Zero hour contracts is not the issue here. The issue is that the club has opened the place specifically so that they don't have to pay all the staff. By opening the place they can only pay the staff called for any shift, while keeping it closed would mean they have to pay all the staff.
That is a bit scummy.

[CraigDS]

As per my understanding, Zero hour contracts is not the issue here. The issue is that the club has opened the place specifically so that they don't have to pay all the staff. By opening the place they can only pay the staff called for any shift, while keeping it closed would mean they have to pay all the staff.
That is a bit scummy.

Not sure that’s the case at all. If they closed it they’d not need to pay them as they are on zero hour contracts.

I think it’s more there are no hours to give and rather than pay them their average salary (which they did last time) they are giving them nothing and only giving them the odd few hours (at short notice) for the odd bit of work there is.

[Hendollama]

Not sure that’s the case at all. If they closed it they’d not need to pay them as they are on zero hour contracts.

I think it’s more there are no hours to give and rather than pay them their average salary (which they did last time) they are giving them nothing and only giving them the odd few hours (at short notice) for the odd bit of work there is.

Yeah, you could be right. I was thinking a bit differently earlier.

Guess it's not as scummy as I thought. It still bothers me, because the owners claim to espouse certain ideals. One of the best things about this club was the social aspect, and now it seemingly has no meaning whatsoever.

[CraigDS]

Yeah, you could be right. I was thinking a bit differently earlier.

Guess it's not as scummy as I thought. It still bothers me, because the owners claim to espouse certain ideals. One of the best things about this club was the social aspect, and now it seemingly has no meaning whatsoever.

I highly doubt the owners, or even CEO, has a clue this is happening.

The club employs somewhere around 600-650 admin/commercial/other staff who work 20+ hours a week. With a further 2,000+ part time temp staff. These will be managed by middle management with no input from the higher bosses.

They may know, but I doubt it personally. Hopefully when they do it's sorted out.

[rob1966]

Yeah, you could be right. I was thinking a bit differently earlier.

Guess it's not as scummy as I thought. It still bothers me, because the owners claim to espouse certain ideals. One of the best things about this club was the social aspect, and now it seemingly has no meaning whatsoever.

Yeah, zero hours is exactly that, you are not contracted to do any hours so you only earn when you work. In my own situation, at lockdown, General Haulage fell off a cliff, so all the agency drivers and casuals like me got fucked off in favour of the full time lads, which is how it should be. Then Tesco went mad busy, there wasn't enough drivers to cope, so full time drivers an some of the casuals were put on that work. Once the panic settled and shopping habits returned to normal, then the casuals were all left with no work. I didn't do any work for about 6 weeks until it started to pick up again.

As Craig says, the top guys pay people to do these jobs, unless anything is brought to their attention, they won't have a clue what is going on. Hopefully once the CEO finds out, things will be put in motion to help those who are struggling - I'm not talking all the staff, just the ones without other incomes/pensions that just do the work for extra money/to get out of the house.

[Hendollama]

It was nice knowing the perspective of someone who works on a zero hour contract. Hope things stay good for you here on out, Rob. 

I think I will listen to you guys and give them the benefit of the doubt. The furlough bothered me enough that I stopped with footy and perhaps I am just looking for any justification to stick to my decision.

[K-Lo]

Very interesting discussion here. I may have been a bit too strong in my criticism of fsg above.

I do feel quite disturbed at the way our society has been corporatised in the last two decades, however it is always good to hear other viewpoints. I work as a teacher in Norway (working with young people around 16yrs) and I always warn about the perils of conservatism. One of the things I don't like is zero hour contracts as I think it undermines efforts to build a strong and cohesive society, so it was really interesting to hear from Rob about the advantages of zero hour contracts in relation to flexibility. I can see how this is a real benefit for some.

I think its important that people have a choice though as there must be many others who sit waiting by the phone in the morning unsure if they will work that day and therefore whether or not they can feed their kids.

In relation to fsg, I find it hard to believe they are totally in the dark on the situation. Day to day decisions may be made at management level but with the policies of the organisation (decided at the very top) acting as a framework and limiter to those decisions. I don't think those at the top are bad people but they may be out of touch with the realities of everyday life for many.

[gazzalfc]

The club has commented

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/liverpool-fc-worker-reddit-thread-19176256

Liverpool FC has insisted that it does not have any zero hours contracts, with a spokesperson explaining: "We do, however, have colleagues who work with us on casual contracts who supplement our core staffing."

LFC spokesperson said: “At the beginning of lockdown in March our mission was to protect as many jobs as possible and so we paid our casual contract workers what they would expect to earn if football matches hadn’t been suspended.

"We did this for four months which was very much a payment of goodwill which we made clear at the time.

“Since then we have tried to ensure as many casual workers are offered as many shifts as possible during these uncertain times including offering shifts in different roles in other parts of the club, yet up to now we have seen a very low take up on these shifts that have been made available.

“As a club we are very aware of the challenges that face our city and our staff and protecting the jobs of both our permanent and contracted workers has been our top priority.

“Now almost eight months on from the beginning of the pandemic it is an unavoidable truth that our club, like many businesses, has seen a huge downturn in revenue which has impacted our ability to operate as we previously have.”

[oojason]

Very interesting discussion here. I may have been a bit too strong in my criticism of fsg above.

No mate, you weren't too strong in your criticism.


Anyway, the club have released this statement...

"“It’s important to first clarify that as a club we do not have any zero hours contracts. We do, however, have colleagues who work with us on casual contracts who supplement our core staffing.

“At the beginning of lockdown in March our mission was to protect as many jobs as possible and so we paid our casual contract workers what they would expect to earn if football matches hadn’t been suspended. We did this for four months which was very much a payment of goodwill which we made clear at the time.

“Since then we have tried to ensure as many casual workers are offered as many shifts as possible during these uncertain times including offering shifts in different roles in other parts of the club, yet up to now we have seen a very low take up on these shifts that have been made available.

“As a club we are very aware of the challenges that face our city and our staff and protecting the jobs of both our permanent and contracted workers has been our top priority."

“Now almost eight months on from the beginning of the pandemic it is an unavoidable truth that our club, like many businesses, has seen a huge downturn in revenue which has impacted our ability to operate as we previously have.”

^ from https://www.empireofthekop.com/2020/10/28/anonymous-reddit-user-claims-some-lfc-staff-are-relying-on-hand-outs-from-colleagues

and now also at https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/liverpool-fc-worker-reddit-thread-19176256


To me that statement above (re the 'low take-up of shifts') reeks of shifting of blame onto the club staff who are relying on generosity of other staff for food. And also somewhat conflicts with the anonymous member of staff claim that 'the club have started sending the shifts out on a daily basis with most people not receiving any at all.' In essence, going on that above statement the club aren't doing anything else about this.

The uncertainty of 'day to day shifts' being sent out (or not receiving hours to work) is stressful at the best of times for those on low incomes or restricted hours - making it almost impossible to plan or budget for even the basics. And that is before this global pandemic and with winter approaching (where any available money is spent on heating can over food).

Once again, it is the compassion and generosity of other lower-paid / full-time staff at the club helping fellow zero-hour workers (or 'casual contract workers' as the club terms it above).

And not the club itself.


From the Echo article...

'One said: "I don't know how I'm going to survive through this, not even worked an hour this week. We have been loyal giving our all through the summer holidays etc and not even an update, it is heartbreaking given our love for this club."'

[Greg86]

This is a dammed if you do, dammed if you don't for the club.

Imo, it's a direct result of them having to climb down over taking government money during the furlough. If they'd been allowed to do that, they'd also now be taking advantage of the post October support system, where they could have people working 20% of their usual shifts, and be paying them 2/3rds of their usual income but taking big chunks of Government money.

Instead, they've paid the average wages in full from the club, and have now taken the approach that they are not willing to do it anymore. Which from a business point of view, is understandable. Disappointing, but understandable.

I'm not however, a fan of the sophistry on show.

"“It’s important to first clarify that as a club we do not have any zero hours contracts. We do, however, have colleagues who work with us on casual contracts who supplement our core staffing.

Casual staff are either zero hours or agency staff imo.

[Thepooloflife]

This is a dammed if you do, dammed if you don't for the club.

Imo, it's a direct result of them having to climb down over taking government money during the furlough. If they'd been allowed to do that, they'd also now be taking advantage of the post October support system, where they could have people working 20% of their usual shifts, and be paying them 2/3rds of their usual income but taking big chunks of Government money.

Instead, they've paid the average wages in full from the club, and have now taken the approach that they are not willing to do it anymore. Which from a business point of view, is understandable. Disappointing, but understandable.

I'm not however, a fan of the sophistry on show. Casual staff are either zero hours or agency staff imo.

Good post mate, and tend to agree. It is semantics really to say '...colleagues who work with us on casual contracts...' but also that they have no zero hour contracts. It's pretty crap too, not continuing to pay them average wages, as they did earlier in the year - but, as you say, clearly a business decision. And, while I agreed with the decision they made to do a 180 on the furlough application.......I can somewhat see, from a business point of view now, the clubs situation regarding that and the Job Support Scheme - especially when you consider other big companies, like for example, Wetherspoons who applied for furlough and the JSS.........a company that earned £1.8 billion last year.