Topic: Round Table: Liverpool 0 Real Madrid 3

[steveeastend]

I'd guess if Borini had been showing up well enough in training then he'd have had the chances Rodgers seems unwilling to give him. I honestly don't think Sterling can succesfully play the front role leading the line. sahko's been injured just lately in any case.

Rodgers said at the beginning of the season in public that certain players game time will be limited, VERY limited. What do you expect from those players then for the rest of the season? It was stupid to no end, he limited competition with this statement and options to for. Now he ends up with a core of players who probably won't make it through the season, Gerrard, or simply are not good enough to retain last seasons style of play. For a different one, Rodgers has to change line ups but already exlcuded those players AT THE BEGINNING of the season. Well...

[Timbo's Goals]

We all are saying the same when it comes to the problem, I just don't care where it's are coming from at this point, I only care what we can do about it at the moment. You have to win your next game of football, that's all that matters and there are still enough options around to go for,

Agreed

Rodgers just has to solve some problems and give up being stubborn and inflexible.

Despite your belief that he's got options coming out of his ears I think he's been pretty well stymied by the lack of options due to the club not doing what they needed to do in the summer.

 

 

[Timbo's Goals]

I would just like to apologise at this juncture to Hinesey and the other mods for hijacking the round table thread and turning it into my own personal crusade for an understanding as to what has gone awry with the entire season since Sturridge got injured and we were left with no attacking outlet that fitted our particular bill.

If I hadn't have felt so deeply passionate about what I see as a huge management misjudgement in the summer transfer window I would never have been so compelled to post so much on the issue.

I'll politely cease as of now.

I hope.

 

[Gnurglan]

How's that work then?

If we actually  knew what we were doing then we'd have bought two pacy strikers not two immobile ones.

Or is there a different interpretation of 'knowing what you're doing other than actually knowing what you're doing?

Because it seems pretty evident to me that we didn't have a fucking clue what we were doing in buying two immobile strikers and no pacy mobile ones to accord with the way our game had been evolving for an entire season or so before.

 

 

It's not a bad idea to have different types of strikers. To me, it seems likely that we went for that on purpose. Suarez out and Lambert in? Balotelli vs Borini? If we think of this in a positive way, we knew we couldn't replace Suarez like for like. We went for having more alternatives to attack.

One thing we mentioned this summer, but not so much now, is that it's a World Cup year. So we had less time to form the group and get players used to each other and our style of play. We then decided to add quite a few players, so we made it even more difficult for ourselves. That we struggle to find our way is perhaps not so strange. Because with Sturridge out injured, we get strikers who are not used to how we played last season and the rest of the team therefore can't play the same way.

[vblfc]

A while ago Rodgers spoke about the Liverpool shirt being a heavy one to wear.  I think this is something really important to understand.  What was clear on Weds was that all our shirts got heavier very quickly after a strong opening.

So why are our shirts heavy?  Why can we watch other less prolific players at other teams (where their shirts are maybe  "lighter") pass the ball about at the back, attack the ball from set pieces etc?  I think it goes back to Shankly who I think purposely made these shirts heavy to instill a culture into our club.  Add 5 big cups, title after title and history is positioned to make the shirt what it is.  This, of course can be a proud and positive thing.  However our opponents know the downside of this, they smell it from YNWA.  The press certainly know this and feed on it (and make Mario's shirt heavier for example).  Exceptional players coming from smaller clubs, Spanish normal/average teams etc.,  pull on our history, our expectations, our culture when they wear our red, because we remind them we are Liverpool. Sometimes that has an effect - it's clear to see.

Last season we clicked and you could see/feel the weight drop off and then our culture, energy, momentum played to the positive, almost to the maximum. 

Add to that we did have the exceptional Suarez who,  being an exception to any normal laws, it seems doesn't feel any weight of any shirt, but he is the enigma that he is.

So we need to accept that that's who we are and that's why Rodgers told us that it would take a while this season.  Not all managers get this about Liverpool and can live with it.  Good news is that Rodgers seems to understand and knows that the whole club needs to flow together to get back the momentum,  Shankly built that, Paisley & Rafa got it, Kenny understands better than most anyone.  Others didn't.

So I expect every collective groan, every call to drop Stevie, blame Mario, feeds onto the weight of our shirt.  Sky know this, Steve Bruce piled it on at his press conf, other clubs' fans play on it and sing songs against it.  We need to be aware that's who we are.  Sometimes the whole team feel this (weds)  sometimes individuals.

We have a part to play in that, every song for a player, every constructive support can lighten the load.  At minimum we should avoid adding to the weight and trust our manager and players.  This all makes it one hell of an experience but gut wrenching when the shirts gain weight.  The great thing is when it goes well we are special and we become a powerful force. 

So it seems that according to their previous club and international performances we have signed good players.  We now need to find the whole formula to make the energy positive.  We must not feed more onto the negativity.  It is clear that the guys are struggling just now - It will come back, it may take time and more than at a normal club.

[SlowRap]

Utter bollocks.

West ham - no champions league - pacy attacking outlets brought in

Soton - ditto

West Brom - ditto

I bought the line in the summer that beyond Higuain, benzama, Falcao there was nothing available and that balotelli was the only option. Events in the premier league since have shown quite clearly that such a conclusion was utter bollocks and that there were many options available that could have provided us with an attacking solution that complemented our style of play. It would not have replaced Suarez or an injured Sturridge. However it would have gone some way towards plugging the gap. Instead we brought in TWO players totally unsuited to our needs.

Players performing well in a club that doesn't have high expectation shocker. BR refers to the character needed in order to play for LFC for a reason, you don't know that the players going through a good run of form for lesser clubs would transfer that into a Liverpool side with the added pressure to perform.

edit: I'd also add that Mario is by no means "slow" when he puts the burners on he keeps up with the best of em, it's just getting him to put em on that's the trouble.

[Mutton Geoff]

Players performing well in a club that doesn't have high expectation shocker. BR refers to the character needed in order to play for LFC for a reason, you don't know that the players going through a good run of form for lesser clubs would transfer that into a Liverpool side with the added pressure to perform.

edit: I'd also add that Mario is by no means "slow" when he puts the burners on he keeps up with the best of em, it's just getting him to put em on that's the trouble.

who says those clubs fans don't have high expectations?

[Timbo's Goals]

Players performing well in a club that doesn't have high expectation shocker. BR refers to the character needed in order to play for LFC for a reason, you don't know that the players going through a good run of form for lesser clubs would transfer that into a Liverpool side with the added pressure to perform.

edit: I'd also add that Mario is by no means "slow" when he puts the burners on he keeps up with the best of em, it's just getting him to put em on that's the trouble.

Highlighted bit - no, of course, you don't KNOW whether they would. If they're of a similar fast, pacy types however, like the West Ham pair or others like them then you're in with at least a fighting chance of them going some way towards replicating how we performed last season.

Meanwhile, what you do know is that the two we have signed are definitely not performing and without a suitable pacy mobile foil are unlikely ever to replicate the level needed.

As it is I spoke to around 20 different reds at the match today.

Didn't come across a solitary one who could find anything to dispute what I've said about the two signings we made in the summer being utterly and totally the opposite to what was required.

[Timbo's Goals]

It's not a bad idea to have different types of strikers. To me, it seems likely that we went for that on purpose. Suarez out and Lambert in? Balotelli vs Borini? If we think of this in a positive way, we knew we couldn't replace Suarez like for like. We went for having more alternatives to attack.

Highlighted bit - no, it isn't a bad idea G.

However, in the first instance you have to ensure the basic formula that brought us so near to glory last season is replicated as damn near as possible.

We haven't done that. All's we've done is ensure that we've got two players for the Plan B alternative.

If you think that's good management then so be it. I don't. I think it's utterly fucking irresponsible.

[Johnnyboy1973]

If only Sanchez wasn't attracted to London or Remy could pass our medical, this analysis would have been about a page.

[Gnurglan]

Highlighted bit - no, it isn't a bad idea G.

However, in the first instance you have to ensure the basic formula that brought us so near to glory last season is replicated as damn near as possible.

We haven't done that. All's we've done is ensure that we've got two players for the Plan B alternative.

If you think that's good management then so be it. I don't. I think it's utterly fucking irresponsible.

We may have overestimated the strength in what we had. Perhaps we thought Sterling and Sturridge, plus Lallana/Markovic could keep the pace in attack. Meaning it wasn't so important to add pace up front. I can see the logic in that.
It doesn't look to be a very good strategy now though, that must be said. It seems we assumed everything would work, all signings would click. And when it's not the case, we have lost our edge from last season. Plus we need to develop a new style of play to make it work.

[Timbo's Goals]

If only Sanchez wasn't attracted to London or Remy could pass our medical, this analysis would have been about a page.

The fact we at one stage realised we needed such fast, pacy striking talent merely serves to lend emphasis to the degree of incompetance in not unearthing the requisite alternatives to the two you mention that patently existed [see west ham etc etc] and who could have done a job for us.

But don't let the facts get in the way of your sarcasm.

 

[Timbo's Goals]

We may have overestimated the strength in what we had. Perhaps we thought Sterling and Sturridge, plus Lallana/Markovic could keep the pace in attack. Meaning it wasn't so important to add pace up front. I can see the logic in that.
It doesn't look to be a very good strategy now though, that must be said. It seems we assumed everything would work, all signings would click. And when it's not the case, we have lost our edge from last season. Plus we need to develop a new style of play to make it work.

I can see how some management at some levels might have viewed it like that. To an extent. But not at a club like LFC who had just had a season to remember and celebrate and one upon which it was so encumbent upon the management to build upon to at least maintain the level or possibly improve upon it despite the departure of Suarez.

We now await the return of daniel Sturridge and the winter window.

[Johnnyboy1973]

The fact we at one stage realised we needed such fast, pacy striking talent merely serves to lend emphasis to the degree of incompetance in not unearthing the requisite alternatives to the two you mention that patently existed [see west ham etc etc] and who could have done a job for us.

But don't let the facts get in the way of your sarcasm.

 

Not necessarily.

I'd agree if we hadn't have gone for those two. The fact that after them we seemed out of ideas for that type of striker warrants criticism but if it is defined by not identifying the leading striker in the French second division then I'm not sure how much.

I think it has to be taken into account that a young Sturridge lite alternative will be here next summer, so then it's about how far down your list do you want to drop. You also have to consider this is a long unforeseen lay off for Sturridge as he got injured on international and his injury record with us isn't that bad.

I can understand going for Mario and if we'd gone for him early we wouldn't have gone for Lambert.

Just think this isn't the time. I could go further and ask why we bough Lallana when he looks most comfortable in a position that Sterling occupies and Countinho and from the looks of it Markovic.

As for sarcasm - I bet you moaning like fuck at our transfer window come the end of it?

[SmallwoodRed]

Sam - I love your takes on music to bits but the scapegoat bollocks is just burying heads in the sand.

What's transpired - or more accurately what DIDN'T transpire - with this club in the summer is now simply a matter of historical fact.

We fucked up.

We did this by failing miserably to insure ourselves against the departure of Luis and a [likely] injury to Sturridge. The pacy, inventive, mobile, fluid and goal thirsty attacking outlet their play provided the team with either as a combo or even individually was absolutely pivotal to our performance levels. Aided and abetted by our two other top class performers it was almost enough to clinch us the league.

Not to find some means of replicating it as closely as possible was mindblowingly fucking irresponsible on the apart of the club as an entity. Instead we purchased two players who represented the diametric opposites of the two players upon whom are entire attacking strategy and performance hinged. The ensuing result has been a sterility that bears no relationship whatsoever to what was consistently produced last season.

Our current fifth place is a testimony to some sterling effort on the part of those players remaining and some of the others who have come in. However, it has been achieved with the team effectively straitjacketed by the dearth of attacking outlet. The player you presumably are citing as the scapegoat has himself been straitjacketed by being compelled to fulfill a role he is simply unsuited for. His abilities will only be realised when he is used to provide the foil for Sturridge.

If you doubt what I'm saying then simply read the following words of Brendan himself who is clearly biting the edge of the table in his frustration at entering every game with his hands tied behind his back by the failure of the club - and possibly himself - to bring in the sort of mobile and pacy attacking talent that was required. This will DEFINITELY be rectified come january. Of that there can now be no question.

From the Hull City press conference:-

"You take the goal threat out that we had last year and it has an impact.

"It hasn't been as fluid or as affective but we are trying to master that.

"When Daniel plays, it gives us that fluidity. We want him to get back as soon as he can."[/b]

Timbo - Agree with all of that.
Actually though, I was being more direct but didnt want to bring it down to a Mario B bashing thread as I was trying to offer why I thought we were so poor against RM and have been for most of the season as this is the roundtable thread for the RM game.

The reason I said we are playing with 10 men is because the contribution of MB was so small we might as well have been playing with 10 players-plain and simple.
If people think thats scapegoating then fine but read my other comments which also point to our defensive frailties in equal measure. Its the usual crap you get when offering what I think is a clear observation (coincindently being made by a lot of other people who have been watching liverpool for a long time) who are not knee jerk idiots or blamers.

[Timbo's Goals]

Not necessarily.

I'd agree if we hadn't have gone for those two. The fact that after them we seemed out of ideas for that type of striker warrants criticism but if it is defined by not identifying the leading striker in the French second division then I'm not sure how much.

I think it has to be taken into account that a young Sturridge lite alternative will be here next summer, so then it's about how far down your list do you want to drop. You also have to consider this is a long unforeseen lay off for Sturridge as he got injured on international and his injury record with us isn't that bad.

I can understand going for Mario and if we'd gone for him early we wouldn't have gone for Lambert.

Just think this isn't the time. I could go further and ask why we bough Lallana when he looks most comfortable in a position that Sterling occupies and Countinho and from the looks of it Markovic.

As for sarcasm - I bet you moaning like fuck at our transfer window come the end of it?

For answers to everything you say and then some - please read higher up the thread.