Topic: Round Table Discussion - Young Boys

[canadianscraggledog]

Henderson at right back was a perfectly acceptable change to make - he's right footed, so when YB are attacking down the line he can force them outside and tackle off his back foot.

Good point there, I don't think Hendo at RB is wrong per se, moreso in the grand scheme of things, since there was no Allen/Lucas in the middle at the time. I think it would have been better to bring on Coates and go 3-5-2 with wingbacks since there was no other FB on the bench I believe.

[Mutton Geoff]

But that would of made no sense whatsoever. Yes downing has played on the right, as a right winger, but moving him to right back to defend is a different kettle of fish. Hes only just starting making appearences at left back, on his natural foot and you want the manager to put him on his weaker side.

I am not having a go at you by the way mate, i just wanted to no your reasoning like

reasoning is more of we lost more from the midfield than we gained by moving Henderson to Wing Back and it showed later! As for you are not having a go no problem we all have different opinions about this.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Good point there, I don't think Hendo at RB is wrong per se, moreso in the grand scheme of things, since there was no Allen/Lucas in the middle at the time. I think it would have been better to bring on Coates and go 3-5-2 with wingbacks since there was no other FB on the bench I believe.

That would have been a good option but we would have lost something in the attack at that point, as we'd have had to play a "3-2" in midfield and attack. Cole was doing a good job coming off the wing, Shelvey was doing a good job in the free striker role, Assaidi as keeping them honest on the opposite side, although his touch wasn't good, and Suso was giving a lesson in midfield passing for someone so young. So it is a difficult call to make for Rodgers, or for any coach. As I keep saying, tactics is the short blanket, and when you pull one end up, you lose heat at the other, so you have to always figure out what you are willing to give up for what you want to get. At that point it was still 0-0, so clearly Rodgers gave up the midfield solidity for the chance of scoring, and it worked to a better extent.

[mtred1984]

Only reason br didnt do this imo to go to 3-5-2 it would of disrupted the shape of the team. But as they have shown v chelsea and in the capital cup, we can play a different number of systems, 3-5-2 being one of them

[GregCharrua]

Henderson at right back was a perfectly acceptable change to make - he's right footed, so when YB are attacking down the line he can force them outside and tackle off his back foot. If we put a left footer there, just like when Johnson plays on the left, he either has to show the player inside, which puts the central defenders under pressure, or he has to lunge into the tackle, which is one of the worst things a defender can do, as it throws them off balance and gives the attacker a yard of space. So it made sense, even if it was not the PERFECT fit in isolation. Add in the need for some sort of pace, some sort of addition to the attack when possible, and it makes more sense - Carra doesn't have the pace, and is not really an attacking fullback; added to that, Cole is not a defensive winger, so YB would have had free reign in the space between Cole and Carra, if Carra was played there. The interesting idea would have been Coates, as either the right back or as the central defender with Skrtel pushed wide. But again, the same problems of athleticism and balance exist - a gap gets created between the FB and the RW that Bobadilla would have loved exploiting. So taken in context, Henderson was a logical choice, with Gerrard coming on. The frist goal we conceded was a loss of concentration at the back post, which is, statistically, where most goals are scored. This is why intelligent fullbacks are vital. Wisdom has had a few of these lapses too, as has any other fullback who isn't Maldini, Cole, Johnson or Arbeloa. The second goal came through the middle, so the fullback change wasn't the issue here, and as well as that, it was a perfect storm that on any other day, with an extra touch or if Carra isn't halted momentarily, Reina would have been in perfect position to save the shot and we'd be talking about resting the players for Udinese, how Cole had a great game, and how Reina was back to form with his magnificent save. As it was, YB scored from a goal they will be hard pressed to score again in a hurry, because the conditions for the shot were perfect for YB. How they got into that position is up for question, for sure - but the mistakes weren't tactical - they were mental; players who couldn't control their impulses long enough to see out the game. That's a function of their personalities, not the tactics employed.

(Incidentally, YB had most of their attacks on Downing's side, not Henderson's. If they identified a weakspot - although I suspect it was more to do with Zarate's positioning and them playing through him a lot - then it certainly wasn't Henderson)

Very nice post, thanks for it.

I feel that BR made some tactical mistakes in this game and Gerrard/Sahin/Shelvey cannot be the 3 in the middle. You need at least one of Hendo/Allen/Lucas there to balance it out and protect the defense.

I think this is a huge issue. Sahin ought to be the CM sitting back and directing play, with the well placed pass and vision - in short he ought to be laying out those passes that Gerrard tends to dominate. Sahin doesn't have the motor to hold and shield our CBs. Gerrard has the quality to play that role but he can't help himself from taking over the other role as well and getting into attack and playing those long passes out.

Unless Gerrard is on the top of the triangle you can't play him and Sahin on the pitch. And maybe even then it isn't a great idea. Sahin/Hendo, Sahin/Allen, Sahin/Lucas would all be good pairings on the bottom of the triangle, with Gerrard, Shelvey, Suso left to reall focus on attack...

But as others have said, I think it was a lack of organization and concentration after Sterling sub. We should have been looking to slow things down and we couldn't. Perhaps that is all to the credit of the energetic pressing of the Young Boys squad who really showed up and played a great game as well for them.

Bummed we need to fight for it in Italy still but not as upset as I was just after the whistle.

Congratulations to Joe Cole as well, I've been a little embarrassed by some of the posts on here. Just awful, over the top really the insults his own support throw at him. Its all right to think he doesnt fit the team and his wages are sky high etc but the abuse that posters fling at him personally are just uncalled for really.

[mtred1984]

reasoning is more of we lost more from the midfield than we gained by moving Henderson to Wing Back and it showed later! As for you are not having a go no problem we all have different opinions about this.

But in hindsight, bringing on your captain, should only offer you more. Just shows the lack in faith we have in gerrard, that we should of kept henderson there

[BreakfastPercy]

The Good:
Young Boys played some nice football so I have to give them credit for that. They passed it better than many Premiership teams will do on Saturday. That said I thought there were times when we played with a lot of skill and verve. It was the exciting bit of a squad getting good at passing football, with our build-up rarely labored. With so many reserves we were never going to have a vice grip on them all game, but overall the team picked deserved to win. Even the substitutes did enough for us to win the game, so I don't hold a great deal against Rodgers other than the Sterling substitution.

Rodgers has done the impossible and gotten a performance from Joe Cole, so well done to both of them. B&H all round. Also heard Joe Cole guiding and encouraging Henderson in the first half, and his comments on controlling the game made me wonder whether we missed him last ten minutes. The game told me that if Joe Cole gets to any passable level of fitness, then he can do a job for some team somewhere. And I suspect 'Arry will have some cash burning a hole at QPR in January.

The Bad:
I was disappointed that our captain of many years, who has played 8 million European matches, did not do his job in guiding the midfield. Gerrard has always been described as a captain that 'leads by example' more than he shouts the odds. What happens when the example he sets is no longer the right one? Double whammy. We had Reina, Carragher, and Gerrard (add to that Skrtel, Suarez and Sahin) and that should be the spine of a team that knows- and takes responsibility for- how to control the flow of a European game (and their younger teammates) without prompting.

The number of Gerrard shots that get closed down to me shows that his gears turn slower than they used to. It's easier to justify/offset that if his experience brings benefits, but for me he doesn't steer games like we need him to. Compare his performance with Pirlo's against Chelsea. Pirlo even when not outstanding adjusts his team's play through experience. The game has consistently happened around Gerrard this season, and the only times he really gets a grip of the match is when he drags us into a style and tactic he is familiar with i.e. him as the quarterback in a kitchen sink team. Put any of 'the best midfield in the world' in Gerrard's place last night and in my opinion we get three points. It will be the most accelerating factor in his decline if he can't address it.

I won't slam Henderson for the mistake, but it wasn't a mistake that comes from playing out of position, it came from the fact he switched off. We've had players doing that all season, and maybe it shows why he doesn't get a lot of first team minutes. He should have been red hot the full 90mins if he's that desperate to be picked. I like the kid, I'm still hoping he does well, but he didn't run through that barbed wire last night.

Carragher is as good as any at stopping a goal, but he cannot stop attacks. He doesn't have the pace to get out and intercept in the first place, and doesn't have the pace to get back from either a missed interception or attacking 'foray'. It means he has to sit deep all game and is generally only effective defending his own penalty box. That stretches the midfield and makes it easier for teams to hit us on the counter, which is something we have generally improved on in other matches. It's not a question of performance with Carragher, just ability. Great for a backs to the wall Chelsea game though. Did think him and Downing were fairly well organized and that Henderson could have done with the same organization. Skrtel plays well in himself, but he's no Agger.

[Mutton Geoff]

But in hindsight, bringing on your captain, should only offer you more. Just shows the lack in faith we have in gerrard, that we should of kept henderson there

well defensively you have to admit Henderson was giving us more in CM, its not a lack of faith in Gerrard but if you think Cole doesn't track back much, Stevie looks like he cannot do box to box anymore, so we suddenly had a bit of a soft center!

[steveeastend]

Overall I thought it wasn´t a bad game at all. But mistakes did cost us. Not the ones which will always happen, the ones which SHOULD be prevented, as for being part of fooball basics.

Rodgers shouldn´t have played Henderson as a full back, there is no excuse for this. Gerrard should have stayed back at the end of the game, there is absolutely no excuse for an experienced player like him being aware of Sahin the only one behind him going on a counter with just a couple of minutes left to play.

Carra played kind of alright in his last euro games which makes it kind of understandable why Rodgers played him yesterday. But after this game Carra shouldn´t be near a line up anymore, other than sentimental reasons in some games as a substitute coming on. His body denies him top level football, it´s the time when a footballer should realise that it´s over and it was almost embarressing to watch one of the best one-to-one defenders of the club ever struggling in every movement on this level.

I cannot see too much wrong besides this, the overall tactical set up was very good again, Cole a positive surprise and without those mistakes we would be talking about a dominant LiverpoolFC being through.

On a last note I don´t share the excuses for Gerrard at all. He is a great player, that´s out of the question but his lack of discipline in center midfield hasn´t changed and makes us just too vulnerable in almost every game so why keep on playing him there? Not trusting Sahin, Shelvey or Henderson doesn´t make any sense as an argument as we are talking Young Boys Bern here.
This wasn´t a top side like Barca f.e. and those mentioned players for sure are good enough for putting in a disciplined performance in a euro league group stage game. And that´s all it needs in this kind of games as our tactical set up and attacking play was for sure good enough in all those games.

[Black Bull Nova]

Overall I thought it wasn´t a bad game at all. But mistakes did cost us. Not the ones which will always happen, the ones which SHOULD be prevented, as for being part of fooball basics.

Rodgers shouldn´t have played Henderson as a full back, there is no excuse for this. Gerrard should have stayed back at the end of the game, t

Strange decision, with Enrique and Coates on the bench (ie move Carragher across), unless the policy is take players on the way out and give them a run at full back to see if something can be salvaged. I suppose the fact that Enrique being the most left footed player since Alan Kennedy did not help but the other option was there.

[John C]

I understand we had a supposed weakened team but my concern is that we couldn't stop Young Boys play their own game, credit to them, they played some good football on our turf. They played across field and back again and attacked with confidence. I didn't rate Sahin as others have, I thought he was poor. Then factor in disappointing performances from Downing & Henderson and our subs and we're facing the opposite of recent league games when most players have been having 7 or 8 out of 10 games. That dip in performance meant we didn't kill the game making their 2nd irrelevant.

People must stop under-rating Jack Robinson, clearly BR does though, whenever he's played he's rarely put a foot wrong and I'm certain he'd even have filled in on the right.

So credit to YB and a lesson to BR in respect to his philosophy not just in cups but perhaps in some league games - insist on what you preach, ball retention.
Which brings me to my desire to see Henderson & Allen play as a 2 in a 4231 until Lucas returns ...... but that's for another thread.
 

[soberphobia]

Lots of good things and a few howlers for me. I have always thought this season is more about process and development than result which is why I can't understand why Coates doesn't get more minutes. Maybe BR doesn't want a young fullback and a young CB starting together?

I thought our play was generally pretty good and Suso is just a joy to watch. We had an attacking threat without Luis in the team so that is a positive. As usual we missed too many chances. Their first goal was just a defensive error from a guy who isn't a defender so I can forgive that. The second one was just from dumb football. Unforgivable to push so many bodies forward with so little time left and then make no concerted effort to get back into shape. Sahin went to ground when he should of stayed on his feet and been involved in the next tackle and not allow a free strike.

Just a really bad passage of play and lazy football. An accumulation of errors that cost us. Overall it hurts us because our squad is thin and we can't rest players for the Udinese tie now. More good than bad from the game but the last goal conceded really was poor.

The form of Pepe is a concern. At his best you think he would of done better with those strikes.

[bepoq]

first game under Rodgers that I've actually been angry—not just at him, nor just at the players, but collectively. I agree with much of what has been said above regarding team, position and overall tactics, but it is how we played after we scored to go 2-1 up that just kills me. When they equalised I was walking about the kitchen kicking things (lucky for the cat there's no cat at the moment). What the actual fuck were they doing with the ball? They should never have touched it after we scored. At Anfield, in a team that pretends to set out to own possession, in a team with a good bit of experience down the spine, in a team that is supposed to pass the opposition to death, we showed so little respect for possession that it literally was criminal (by which i mean I think they should all get a night in jail for it to think it over). When will we ever learn that lesson Valencia taught us, or, more sensibly, taught to us by us in our great years?—if they can't get hold of the ball, they can't score. Instead, in a team that has struggled to finish and consistently been sketchy about scoring no matter how good the chance, we get all cavalier and go looking for a flourish—it really is beyond naivety to the point of flat out stupid (especially when you figure in experience which sort of leaves out naivety as an excuse), and we got what we deserved for it. Problem is, in the last couple of years we seem to be unable to learn such lessons (Steven Gerrard in particular). Rodgers bears significant culpability for this, first by having a team on the pitch at that point that included both Gerrard and Shelvey, but secondly for being unable to communicate to that team that their job after taking the lead was to never let Young Boys see the ball again.

[Carlos: Very Kickable]

Just wanted to add that there seems to be a lot of criticism about chasing the goal at two one up.

We were obviously too gung ho about it but if we had dropped off and conceded there would have been just as much criticism.

The introduction of Sterling made sense against a team that was drawn out - oh and massive respect for the YB fans.

[bepoq]

Just wanted to add that there seems to be a lot of criticism about chasing the goal at two one up.

We were obviously too gung ho about it but if we had dropped off and conceded there would have been just as much criticism.

The introduction of Sterling made sense against a team that was drawn out - oh and massive respect for the YB fans.

aye yeah, but that isn't the choice—gung ho or drop deep. The sensible choice is the one that Rodgers has been advocating and, one supposes, drilling in all along, that of holding the ball and being conservative with regard to keeping possession of it.

And dead right, the Young Boys fans were really splendid.