Topic: New Ground at Liverpool Waters - What if...

[The Crimson Pirate]

My pal who has on overactive imagination and insomnia emailed me this ...

What if?

* Perenially skint Liverpool City Council volunteers to pay back £8m grant in exchange for Cruise Liner Terminal status. Where is this money coming from?
 
* Liverpool City Council announces two seperate clearance programmes around Anfield - one of the schemes involving housing owned by Liverpool FC. Speculation that the club has "given" the houses to LCC. Why would LFC do that?

* Peel Holdings signs a pre-contract with LCC guaranteeing thousands of jobs for locals on its Liverpool Waters scheme. The new cruise liner terminal is a key component.
 
* Liverpool FC features heavily on the home page of Inner Circle Sports. Why? It's the current team, photos of Stevie and Suarez etc. What is Inner Circle's current relationship with LFC? Inner Circle is a NYC-based sports finance agency that seeks to match up financiers with "franchises" who're looking for funding. Other clients past and present include
FSG (a nice page about their role in the Fenway Park refurb) and, erm... Everton FC. It's worth noting that many of those who believed the Kenny Huang takeover bid was real, were advised that Inner Circle's financier clients included Mill Finacial and the China Investment Corporation.
 
* China Investment Corporation is rumoured to be in the final stages of a major Liverpool (city) based property deal, with LFC one of the stakeholders.

* CIC was behind a massive re-gen scheme in Shanghai very similar in scale, ambition and physicality to Liverpool Waters.

* FSG spent a considerable time with Rick Parry analysing the fine print of the TV deal and, specifically, the rights situation in the Far East.
 
* With Financial Fair Play rules about to kick in, the only potential loopholes in terms of a major investment (using Man City's Etihad sponsorship as an example) stem from "Umbrella" financing from parent companies - for example, if a bank like China Investment Company was to sink £800 million into a (for illustration purposes) "Liverpool FC Village" element of the Liverpool Waters scheme (stadium, hotels, casino, bars, restaurants and, yes, globally-revered football team), it's possible to imagine 10% of that dripping down to the manager for team reinforcements. You could equally envisage FSG parting with 49% and Far East TV rights in exchange for equity.

Personally, I could never see why CIC would become involved in a project to re-generate the Anfield/Breckfield district. It's small beer, for them. Liverpool Waters, however, is much more their thing in terms of scope and aspiration.
 
Is there a major plan afoot, to re-locate Liverpool Football Club to the banks of the river? Are we in favour of such a move? If it is a genuinely high spec stadium of architectural excellence that enhances and becomes a part of Liverpool's iconic skyline then Yes. For me, a resounding Yes. Port cities look to the future as well as the past.

Finally, there was a suggestion that "even Everton will benefit". Outlandish I know but, with a few sweetners from CIC/LCC to replace the red seats with blue and build up their own Everton Village might they move back to... Anfield?

Like I say - I think too much.

[djphal]

Everton move back to Anfield???

wtf

[CraigDS]

There was always talk of any shared stadium being on the waterfront.

Personally I can't see it being true, not going off whats written above. FSG won't be able to sell/give away foreign TV rights, and even if they had found a loop hole the PL will plug that quickly, and prevent us playing in the PL unless we signed the new agreement. And even if they could, 49% of the club plus asian TV rights are probably worth more than any new stadium or land acquisition and redev of Anfield (massively).

[Nessy76]

"FSG spent a considerable time with Rick Parry analysing the fine print of the TV deal and, specifically, the rights situation in the Far East."

Whaaaaaaaat?

[scatman]

very interesting, especially if theres any truth in any of those points

[CraigDS]

To go through a few of these individually...

* Liverpool City Council announces two seperate clearance programmes around Anfield - one of the schemes involving housing owned by Liverpool FC. Speculation that the club has "given" the houses to LCC. Why would LFC do that?

I believe they havent announced anything with regards to the housing owned by LFC and this was more of a comment from a Councillor that LFC SHOULD give the houses away as making the area look a mess due to the state they are in and the council would demolish and tidy the area up.

* Liverpool FC features heavily on the home page of Inner Circle Sports. Why? It's the current team, photos of Stevie and Suarez etc. What is Inner Circle's current relationship with LFC? Inner Circle is a NYC-based sports finance agency that seeks to match up financiers with "franchises" who're looking for funding. Other clients past and present include
FSG (a nice page about their role in the Fenway Park refurb) and, erm... Everton FC. It's worth noting that many of those who believed the Kenny Huang takeover bid was real, were advised that Inner Circle's financier clients included Mill Finacial and the China Investment Corporation.

They advised FSG during their purchase of us, and think they have also worked with the club prior to FSG. We are one of the alrgest sports brands globally so of course are going to use our images to help promote their business.

* FSG spent a considerable time with Rick Parry analysing the fine print of the TV deal and, specifically, the rights situation in the Far East.

I need to look in to this more, but didn't Parry have something to do with the original (or current) TV deal? So given his knowledge of this would actually be a good person to help advise.
 

* With Financial Fair Play rules about to kick in, the only potential loopholes in terms of a major investment (using Man City's Etihad sponsorship as an example) stem from "Umbrella" financing from parent companies - for example, if a bank like China Investment Company was to sink £800 million into a (for illustration purposes) "Liverpool FC Village" element of the Liverpool Waters scheme (stadium, hotels, casino, bars, restaurants and, yes, globally-revered football team), it's possible to imagine 10% of that dripping down to the manager for team reinforcements. You could equally envisage FSG parting with 49% and Far East TV rights in exchange for equity.

This isn't really a loophole as would end up being a pretty transparent deal and think UEFA would be onto it fairly quickly if was above proven market value.

[Nessy76]

This isn't really a loophole as would end up being a pretty transparent deal and think UEFA would be onto it fairly quickly if was above proven market value.

I'm not of a mind to believe any of this without a lot more evidence, but "proven market value" would be the Man City deal, wouldn't it?

[CraigDS]

I'm not of a mind to believe any of this without a lot more evidence, but "proven market value" would be the Man City deal, wouldn't it?

Potentially yes.

[The Crimson Pirate]

A lot of it is supposition and joining of dots ... but as a proposition I reckon a stadium on that site would get a great deal of support from the supporter base.

[The Lord Admiral]

It's not so wild it couldn't be true.

All the hints back before Christmas were that we were definitely getting a new stadium. Because it's gone so quiet, I'd read that as us looking to stay at Anfield again, but it could be that there's a completely different option opened up.

It would explain why we were supposedly talking to those German architects who do the amazing designs as well - forget the name?

[The Las]

Can I go one further, Stadium, Bridge and Ferry terminal built on a man made island bang in the middle of the river mersey - Funded by the chinese! Isnt Shanghai twinned with Liverpool - could be a marketing bomb!

Fuck it - put an airport on it aswell.

It would be like nothing the world had seen before, .....dreams.

Oh yeah and we could build an over head transport system like that seen in bangkok running right out to where ever is needed. Ill go back to sleep now.

[Alan_X]

Oh yeah and we could build an over head transport system like that seen in bangkok running right out to where ever is needed. Ill go back to sleep now.

[Peter McGurk]

Peel aren't interested. Next.


But in detail...

There is no speculation that LFC is giving LCC any houses. There is a desire on council’s part for LFC to give them to them for free. Dream on.

The cruise liner terminal that LLC have to pay back for is NOT the same cruise liner terminal in Peel’s scheme. In fact it’s in competition with it.

Peel aren’t going to guarantee any jobs to anyone. Are you mad?

Peel are particularly keen on Chinese investment because they’ve got the money and the capability but Peel are not interested in the great unwashed traipsing through their nice shiny commercial and residential district and screwing up the deal with any Chinese investors.

A TV deal would add what exactly?

Anyone putting £5.5bn into Liverpool Waters isn’t going to be interested in finding 10% off the top on a whim.

But I like Alan’s picture.




.

[The Las]

genius that!

[keswick]

And to think LCC demolished what could have been a major tourist attraction!!

[Zeb]

Interesting post.

One minor point - tv rights are a non-starter as of right now. Merchandising rights and the like would be an interesting one to cost though.

CIC and Peel involvement remain the big stumbling blocks in this reading of tea leaves.

[TepidT2O]

[The Crimson Pirate]

The big problem with this is there is no firm evidence that Peel and CIC or any other investor are talking to each other.
NESV and LCC are talking, but NESV have no cash. It seems like inertia until ££$$ can be found.

[Nessy76]

The big problem with this is there is no firm evidence that Peel and CIC or any other investor are talking to each other.
NESV and LCC are talking, but NESV have no cash. It seems like inertia until ££$$ can be found.

NESV have been called FSG for ages now.

Just saying, if you want to look like you've got a finger on the pulse, it helps to get these things right. 

[CraigDS]

Also, where is the evidence they have no cash!?

[TepidT2O]

Also, where is the evidence they have no cash!?

It's not about no cash.

It's about their model for the club involves it living off its own resources, they said it when they took over.

[No666]

Peel aren't interested. Next.


.

Is this opinion or received information, Peter?
Weren't Peel at one point interested in accommodating Everton?

[Peter McGurk]

Is this opinion or received information, Peter?
Weren't Peel at one point interested in accommodating Everton?

Substantiated opinion. How can they be interested? A new stadium is hardly comparable with hundreds of thousands of square feet of commercial space/ residential accommodation. The difference is like renting a shop out for a bit of money or owning and running the shop for (allegedly) a lot. It's a waste of the land they bought. A guy called ScouseYuppie did a perspective of a stadium in the middle of Liverpool Waters. But they've just spent millions on a planning consent - no stadium. No, they're not interested.

Everton have looked at a number of sites. As we all know, notably at King's Dock (where the Echo Arena now is). As far as I'm aware, Peel have never owned that part of the dock estate. I believe it left the control of the MDHC in the 80s. There's a tender out now for the balance of the land there - no stadium. Peel did try to interest them in Switch Island and various others have had a go at the tunnel entrance site in Scottie Road.

.

[The Crimson Pirate]

Also, where is the evidence they have no cash!?

Are you serious?
If so - are you on glue?

[The Crimson Pirate]

It's not about no cash.

It's about their model for the club involves it living off its own resources, they said it when they took over.

Let me re-phrase your contribution there, Tepid water:

"its about their model for the club - one that involves them putting in no money as they haven't got any left over from running the Red Sox..."

[CraigDS]

Are you serious?
If so - are you on glue?

No I'm serious.

I'm not saying they have, and not saying they will pump it in for a new ground or whatever, but their is zero evidence they have no cash.

[Zeb]

Let me re-phrase your contribution there, Tepid water:

"its about their model for the club - one that involves them putting in no money as they haven't got any left over from running the Red Sox..."

You'd have to have been daft to believe that they were going to do that in the first place. Can't see that interest free loan remaining there long term either. Other options on the table were Hicks' mate with Hicks via the vulture credit company he runs (businessmen too by all accounts) and the Manchester United supporting Lim. Neither particularly appetising and neither with any prospect of the stadium or a redevelopment getting done.

Hicks and Gillett pumped money in right up until their last 18 months. Came at a credit card interest rate. Sometimes pumping money in isn't the answer. And the sugar daddies were conspicuous by their absence when they could have had the club for £230m cash in a sales process where they didn't have to deal directly with Hicks and Gillett.

edit: know you know all this already, but just want to highlight them again in contrast to the angle you've taken there.

[Nessy76]

No I'm serious.

I'm not saying they have, and not saying they will pump it in for a new ground or whatever, but their is zero evidence they have no cash.

Clearly they as individuals have a fair amount of cash. Werner produced some of the biggest TV shows in the world. The rights from Mork and Mindy alone would have made him a very wealthy man, and that pales next to Roseanne and the Cosby Show.

That doesn't mean that FSG has much to spend, of course; it's a fund, not the sum wealth of its members. There probably isn't much cash "in the bank" at all, it would be inefficient and these are (we hope) pretty smart operators.

[The Crimson Pirate]

You'd have to have been daft to believe that they were going to do that in the first place. Can't see that interest free loan remaining there long term either. Other options on the table were Hicks' mate with Hicks via the vulture credit company he runs (businessmen too by all accounts) and the Manchester United supporting Lim. Neither particularly appetising and neither with any prospect of the stadium or a redevelopment getting done.

Hicks and Gillett pumped money in right up until their last 18 months. Came at a credit card interest rate. Sometimes pumping money in isn't the answer. And the sugar daddies were conspicuous by their absence when they could have had the club for £230m cash in a sales process where they didn't have to deal directly with Hicks and Gillett.

edit: know you know all this already, but just want to highlight them again in contrast to the angle you've taken there.

I'm being delibereratly argumentative   :-)
As far as I can see FSG are very much hands off and seem to be treading water as far as we are concerned. Their priorities lie elsewhere - and this club deserves more.

[The Crimson Pirate]

Unless - dare I suggest! - they are doing things 'The Liverpool Way' ... and wheels are in motion; changes being made; strategems being drawn up, all discretely. And the first we hear is when they are unveiled. Just as if Peter Robinson was still there.

I bloody hope so.

[Zeb]

I'm being delibereratly argumentative   :-)
As far as I can see FSG are very much hands off and seem to be treading water as far as we are concerned. Their priorities lie elsewhere - and this club deserves more.

Last time I waved a pitchfork, I nearly had my own eye out

Can't disagree with what you say there. And there's not a counterargument to be had for it over the past 20 months. Least with the stadium they can say that things won't move forward until they can make some form of financial sense out of moving forward with it.

[southern scouse]

Well if the echo is to be believed, first point has a sort of tick, perhaps LCC have an over imaginative mind as well as your pal and maybe Air China can land at Speke on their way to Air Chinafield.......or is that just too imaginative

[plasterered]

"the docker's umbrella"

I hear there is a section or a mock section in the new museum.

God liverpool lost so many buildings and monuments since the war - what an amazing city of structure. All we need now is a stadium decision

[Zach2k]

So, erm, if said theory does hold any water (ahem), what kind of capacity are we looking at for a potential new stadium?

[Peter McGurk]

So, erm, if said theory does hold any water (ahem), what kind of capacity are we looking at for a potential new stadium?

a million

.

[Zeb]

a million

.

too small

[CraigDS]

too small

Ive heard the sweet spot is around 1,065,000