Topic: Round Table Newcastle 2-0 Liverpool

[scatman]

Agree with your general point, but it's more than harsh to pin the first goal on Carragher, and not Skrtel. The ball wasn't played in at that snapshot you show, but several seconds later. We did hold a decent line then, but for some reason Skrtel dropped about 5 yards behind the rest trying to cover Cisse, when there really was no need to that at the time. It was Skrtel's mistake, not Carragher's.

If that situation had been in reverse, I doubt you would've blamed Skrtel for being a yard of 5 seconds earlier. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but my impression is that everything is Carragher's fault, all the time. There's plenty of arguments against him starting already, I think it's best if we look at those, rather than blame every single fault the team makes on him.

it was literally a couple of seconds after that screenshot

as you can see Ben Arfa is turning onto his left foot, he actually swings the ball in after that moment.

[GrkStav]

The first goal was a one-off thing. Skrtel took one step up to put the opponent in an offside position and the ball was delivered at precisely the right time for him to be onside. The need to change momentum for Skrtel meant that he wasn't able to recover in time. He missed heading the ball out by "this much". That's the only thing that explains why Pepe was so obviously beffudled and wrong-footed, as well. Under normal circumstances, Pepe would have easily dealt with that header. It wasn't fizzed in and it traveled almost parallel to the goal-line and in front of Reina.

That was a great goal for them. The marking on the crosser/passer wasn't ideal but he's a tricky customer, with excellent ball-skills and change of direction ability.

[lukeb1981]

Carra was 5 - 8 yards behind Skrtel the whole game, he has created a nervousness accross the back line and Pepe never looks half the keeper he is when carra plays,Defending that deep pulls the midfield back which in turn leaves a massive gap to the strikers which we seen with Luis and Andy nearly back at the half way line collecting the ball.Then we have Gerrard running all over the place leaving holes in midfield, Newcastle walked right through us, we really are badly stuck for a good midfielder to play with lucas , it is something Rafa always had a strong midfield,teams are dominating us now and that is something that needs to be sorted soon or we will finish bottom half  of the table ,bring in Coates ,put gerrard on the right that would be a start.

[Eeyore]

Agree with your general point, but it's more than harsh to pin the first goal on Carragher, and not Skrtel. The ball wasn't played in at that snapshot you show, but several seconds later. We did hold a decent line then, but for some reason Skrtel dropped about 5 yards behind the rest trying to cover Cisse, when there really was no need to that at the time. It was Skrtel's mistake, not Carragher's.

If that situation had been in reverse, I doubt you would've blamed Skrtel for being a yard of 5 seconds earlier. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but my impression is that everything is Carragher's fault, all the time. There's plenty of arguments against him starting already, I think it's best if we look at those, rather than blame every single fault the team makes on him.

The problem is the failure to hold a line in the first place, in open play it is almost impossible for your four defenders to push up at exactly the same time. You hold a line, pressure the ball and leave Reina to deal with anything over the top. Once you have dropped to the edge of your box you have to defend the ball. Skrtel has lost his man and should of done better with the cross but we should never of been that deep in the first place.

[sattapaartridge]

I had that feeling before this game that we were going to get beat. But I thought we would have played them off the park and still lose, you know, the way we've been early part of the season.

But it was worse. We were so disjointed, and one word springs to mind:

Solid.

We were not solid in midfield. We were not putting in enough tackles, we were not pressing as much as we should have. Its been a feature of our game, this lack of tackling and pressing this season since Lucas' unfortunate injury.

The Carroll dive? I was disappointed, actually I was livid at the moment he did that. I thought it was on his right foot, and he could have scored that if he was confident. But he didnt, he went down like a sack of potatoes, it looked like a dive to me too.

But Carroll was desperate in this game. you saw his energy early on, he was winning headers, chasing the ball down, tracking back, trying to push us forward.....then they scored.

I have been wondering whether Reina has been at the races in the last 6-7 games. I think he has been mentally fatigued, but the reason I thought this was because I thought maybe Reina could have claimed that cross. It was floated in slowly, he could see the ball, but he was on his line and the only thing i could think of is that there were bodies ahead of him and he trusted the defenders. It wasnt his fault by any means, the goal that is, I just thought he could have spotted the danger and clear it up before it reached the danger area. We made that cross look sublime.

We looked suckerpunched, we worked hard, we had most of the ball, but we didnt make it tell.

2nd half we looked better, looked as though Gerrard moved more to the right hand side and Suarez upfront, we took the game to them, but again, they scored.

Offside it was.

But hey, you win some, you lose some. This season? We're against the world arent we? We're not getting the decisions, we're not even getting a basic throw in at times. The sending off was born right out of frustration. I felt for Reina, I really do, but those on here talking him up as if he's some God should take a look at themselves. He is a captain figure for us, he should be leading some of the team he should be conceding less goals. Some are actually his fault! I think he's at the right club, but he needs to get his head straight, get refreshed and back in this team leading us to glory. How does winning the Carling Cup have a negative effect on us? It doesnt make any sense.

But we need to start making things happen.

The wheels have fallen off, but still, we can salvage this season by fielding a more consistent first 11.

BTW, Gerrard was gash in this game, but still, the better moments came from him.

[Yorkykopite]

I fear for Kenny this summer. FSG have kept their counsel until now, which often indicates a pretty ruthless organisation. And there are some question marks over Kenny which may be hard to answer. His signings are a damning indictment - you either sign good players, or you make the best of your signings. Kenny has done neither.

Downing was a terrible signing - he's got a streak of yellow running through him so strong the sun seems to be shining wherever he runs. He's a disgrace.

Adam is what he is, an OK midfielder at about the £8m mark. He played quite well when Lucas was there to mop up for him, but he's out of his depth against the top teams.

Henderson, to me, is a mystery... he may blossom, but I suspect, like Downing, he doesn't have the mentality to play for this club. Good feet, good engine, but no willingness to take on responsibility, or bust a gut to break through into a danger area, or even compete for a 50/50. So many times this season he's stood there, flat on his heels, as a simple pass rolls past him...

Carroll, I actually feel some sympathy for. Clearly, he isn't top drawer. But it's not good management to sign a young striker for a big fee, then decline to play to his strengths. Even on Sunday, substituting him in front of the Geordies may have been understandable given his performance, but not when the whole team have played shit. This only undermines his confidence even more, and unfairly. He's not as ineffectual as he's being made to look, which is worrying.

If FSG have doubts about Kenny, how much will they back him in the summer? I think he's stuck - they'll either sack him, ask him to walk, or they'll decline to give him the big money he probably needs this summer, and he'll have one more season to try to get the best out of a very average squad. He's in a bind. If we win the FA Cup I can see him walking.

That's very well summarised and nicely expressed. I think you're too harsh on Downing and perhaps on Henderson too, but not absurdly so.

I do think Kenny will go and Fenway almost certainly have written the script already. They will say that Dalglish came to the club at a critical time in its history to perform a duty that no one else could possibly have undertaken. They will press the idea that he was a saviour and resurrect the idea that he was employed mainly as a caretaker to see the club into a new era. A trophy (possibly two) will then be cited as wonderful extras which he gave to the club. He will be said to have restored the important habit of winning silverware.

But Fenway can only use this script if they act at the end of the current season. Beyond that many of its assumptions - already a bit strained - will look positively dishonest.

[KirkVanHouten]

FSG didn't even want to sack Roy when they came in I highly doubt they are going to sack Kenny after 1 season. I also think their recent silence means very little other than the fact that they are trying to distance themselves at a time when the Red Sox supporters were angry about a perceived over-involvement at Liverpool FC combined with a poor season.

[Vulmea]

Gah. It was horrible wasn't it?

Good post - enjoyed that and appreciate the thought and effort but pretty much disagree with most of it Trying to multi quote that would have been painful so I've tried something different below -

Gah. It was horrible wasn't it?
It's just been a horrible season, to be honest. I know we could end up with two trophies to our name by the end of it (though that looks increasingly unlikely with the sheer number of absentees for the semi-final, Reina, Agger, Lucas et al.) but it has been dire.

Just not true though – it might feel that way right now in our worst run for 50 years but it did not feel that way earlier in the season. The second half of the season has been dire – the period since Bolton away has been dire but up until 4 games ago we were on for 2 cups and 4th place.

Directionless, chaotic, frustrating. The fact is it is April and I don't believe that with a fully fit squad Kenny would be able to pick a starting XI, or at least a starting XI where all of the players would be fielded in their correct positions.

4-2-3-1 : Reina, Johnson, Enrique, Skrtel, Agger, Lucas, Henderson, Gerrard, Downing, Suarez, Carroll

Bench – any from: Jones, Doni, Flanagan, Kelly, Aurelio, Coates, Carragher, Spearing, Adam, Shelvey, Bellamy, Maxi, Kuyt, Sterling, Eccleston………

Personally I’d have Bellamy for Carroll  but hey ho.

What is Steven Gerrard? Because he isn't a central midfielder, yet he is being played there.
Adam is injured, Henderson is off form, Shelvey is inexperienced and Lucas is out. WE are making do with what we have.



What is Luis Suarez, because he isn't a no. 9 and that's where he has been played every single time he has taken to the field for Liverpool this season, even when the actual no. 9 is on the pitch. And the less said about the aforementioned no. 9 the better at this stage.

No he hasn’t.

It is desperately frustrating because last season, we had the makings of a very, very good Liverpool side. It was as though you had rewound to the eighties (not that I was there), but added exotic names, pass and move football, international stars, goals and plenty of the, We were the second most in form team in the league and we went from relegation long shots to mounting a sort of assault on forth place.

In some games we played well in others we didn't - Braga, Spurs, Villa.

Eleven months on from that that wonderful evening at Craven Cottage, which in terms of pure footballing enjoyment from a Liverpool side comes second only to our demolition of Aston Villa at Anfield in 2009 that I have seen, we are an abject mess.

We scored three early goals two of them lucky and got battered for 20 minutes after half time.
 

It was considered by almost everyone that with Dalglish, Clarke, Comolli, and Fenway, with stability off the pitch, unity amongst the fan base that we had a winning formula. Yet this summers transfer activity tore up the foundations of a potentially very good Liverpool side that had pass and move coursing through its veins in favour of the current mess we have seen turn out for large portions of the season. And the reasons as to why are beyond me. Out went the shithouse whose probably won more tackles that Charlie Adam this season, into oblivion went Maxi Rodriguez, the fluid style of play where interchanging positions was common place waved goodbye and a static, rigid, lifeless 4-4-2 replaced it.

Nonsense – we played excellent pass and move at the start of the season –


The problems we are currently seeing, the nervousness across the back four, the hurried, uninspiring, uncreative play in the midfield, and the ineffective forward play has been there all season long.

No it hasn’t. We had the best back four in the prem for months.We created more chances than any other side, we’ve hit the wood work more than any other side, we’ve won more trophies than any other side.

If you could have drawn up a 'wish-list' in the summer most Liverpool supporters would have said we needed, a left back, a centre back, cover for Lucas Leiva, and support for Luis Suarez.

Nah – they’d have asked for a left back , a left mid, a centre back, a centre mid and a striker. We pretty much got them all.

And Kenny/Comolli went out and provided the first two, Jose Enrique came in and has done well save for his somewhat fatigued performances in recent weeks, unsurprising when considering that the only legitimate cover in the shape of Emiliano Insua was sent packing.

Other than Aurelio and Robinson and Johnson.

But after that our focus turned elsewhere, Adam came in as a partner for Lucas, and for 'partner' read 'the fella you leave to do all the legwork while you ping about the ball with gay abandon',
I’m guessing you don’t like Adam

Henderson came in as one for the future, a young lad many accredited as being good enough to potentially ascend Gerrard's throne, who has been shunted out on the right of midfield and gone from 'quietly effective' to a bag of nerves ironically cheered off at half time at Anfield, with moments of great technique and skill interspersed throughout.

Are these two things the crowd intolerance and him being a bag of nerves related – have the nerves increased as our league position has slumped – too much pressure on young shoulders?

The loss of Lucas Leiva was a shattering one, it pretty much spelled the end of our league season. He is growing more and more important to the Liverpool cause with each passing week and he can't even kick a ball again, yet. And while yes, everyone would miss a player of his standard and it is understandable there has been a dip in form as a result it makes the decision not to ensure our squad had adequate cover for the Brazilian a truly unforgivable one. Indeed he shouldn't have even been fielded in the game where his injury occurred, considering the legwork he had been doing in the centre of the park and his lack of preseason. It was horrendous mismanagement, because Spearing, likeable though he is, ain't the man to step into Lucas Leiva's boots.

Unforgivable? Spearing is improving just as Lucas improved – are we supposed to keep journeyman players like Poulsen kicking their heels in the stiffs costing large sums and contributing little except low morale? Nah it has to be a youngster and why not Spearing?  If Lucas is an important as you suggest who steps in to those boots? Who do we have sitting around in the reserves waiting to become the lynchpin of the team when needed? Part of the issue was when Spearing could have spelled Lucas and could have stepped in he too was injured or suspended meaning we went with other players again.

So that brings us to the question of where has it all gone wrong?
Tactics and personnel:
We have abandoned the offensive minded 4-2-3-1 (of sorts) from last season in favour of a rigid 4-4-2 and through this and judging by the players signed it was clear to me that Kenny/Comolli sought to accomodate Andy Carroll. £35M they had too, right?

So in came Charlie '10M for his set pieces alone' Adam for free kicks and corners, so too Stewart Downing a conventional left winger, and Jose Enrique who had linked well with him at Newcastle. But in order to do this Maxi Rodriguez, a perfect foil for Luis Suarez was dropped, and has barely featured even from the bench this season. Meireles went who likewise linked well with Suarez, as late as in our 2-0 victory against Arsenal in which the pair changed the game and grabbed us the three points.

And while Luis Suarez has still dazzled this season, he hasn't been the same threat as he was last term.

Have we – I thought we kept varying our formations. If anything we have tried to force Carroll into a formation and style that he is uncomfortable with not the other way around.

You think we’ve built a team to Carroll’s strengths when we’ve barely seen a ball whipped in for him to attack all season?

Stewart Downing the conventional left winger who plays on the right? I thought most conventional wingers actually tried to take on their man and go down the outside once in a while?

Meireles who wasn’t going to be first XI but wanted to treble his wages and who wanted to link up with his pal AVB – exactly as per Aquilani – they got no guarantees,  in fact in Aquilani’s case he was told the opposite,  so they wanted out. They have both massively improved in people’s perception since they left.

Rodriguez is an odd one, my take for what its worth (which is very little) , he’s leaving at the end of the year – he’s on first team wages and he’s a squad player – so rather than play him they want to bed in the new recruits for next year.


Attitude:
A wise man once said 'the difference between players is not always the quality but the mentality' and I think if our season is a testament to anything it is this, there is no fighting spirit, there is no drive, there is no leadership.

Stewart Downing is not a bad footballer, in fact he is a very good one, but he is all too content to go hide when the going gets tough. He has all the skill necessary to be a very good left winger for Liverpool, he is bloody quick, he can cross a ball, he can score goals, but he is all to happy to coast through games and go unnoticed. He is a good footballer but he doesn't have the mentality to perform at a Club like Liverpool, at Aston Villa a player like Downing flourishes but at Liverpool he has made next to no impact: 0 goals and 0 assists in the PL.

Agreed but he requires other players to make him shine and our finishing has been poor.

Andy Carroll, I had to mention him eventually. Newcastle was the final straw for me. I've been accepting of the fact he is young, he is inexperienced in the top flight, he has the burden of a price tag he didn't ask for and a move he was pushed into. But on very few occasions has he shown the character, or fight, or commitment that could repay the continued support Kenny Dalglish has given him.

Agreed. Not convinced he’s ever really wanted to be here.

And our captains attitude in the last two games has been unacceptable, certainly not befitting of the armband his is supposed to wear with such distinction, he spent the last fifteen minutes against Wigan hiding, and he barely broke a sweat in that 90 minutes against Newcastle, the only time he took control of anything was sending his manager packing back to his technical area, it may be a case of reading too much into it, but it didn't look good did it?

Agreed. Definitely has his eye on the FA Cup semi – the number of challenges he pulled out of against Newcastle……..

But the biggest reason why Carragher shouldn't be in that side is simply because there is a better player sat on the bench and ultimately the buck stops with Kenny. He has to make the call, galling though it may be for him, he has to make it, and if it's player power, he has to stand up and ship them out.

He is standing up and making the decisions you just don’t like them. Coates himself said he has to be patient and learn didn’t he? Coates was playing when we conceded three in 15 minutes, Skrtel was at fault for Newcastle and Wigan’s first goals. Every centre back in the league are to blame for Van Persie’s goal record, Carra was not at fault for the sack full of missed chances against Arsenal and QPR.

Now on to our captain, I'm sure everyone will have seen the statistics of Liverpool's form when since Gerrard returned to the starting XI and while in some quarters they'll be dismissed as part of a bitter agenda against him, anyone who is willing to look at them as 'player X', a 31 year old midfielder who has been riddled with injuries and has shirked responsibility for much of the last three years, and not Steven Gerrard the man who lifted the European Cup seven years ago, you will see there are massive, massive concerns.

You certainly like really really really exaggerating. His attitude has stunk, his work rate has not been good enough, he has always been a player who’s mentality is fragile, odd for a player who has pulled us up by his own personality on more than one occasion  and he’s still one of the best players the club has ever had – I’ve always thought the lad needs a captain like Souness or Roy Keane to bring the best from him – he’s never really had one. When he played against Cardiff you could see the sheer  desperation he had to succeed, right him off at your peril.

Playing in a position he insists on playing in, and really we cannot continue to pretend that Steven Gerrard is playing there for any other reason than Steven Gerrard thinks it is his best position, he has looked dramatically off the pace. With Steven Gerrard part of a midfield 'two' in a four man midfield, Liverpool FC will struggle. He isn't a central midfielder, and at 31 he isn't going to suddenly learn how to be one. We can make all the same arguments over and over again if we wish but the fact is the father away from goal, the less relevant Gerrard becomes. In the centre of the park he is wasted. He can't drive at defences (because if he does - which he has - he leaves our back four exposed), he can't link up with Luis Suarez, he cannot provide the crosses, or incisive passes the will create space for his teammates. We are opting to have a mediocre central midfielder in favour of a wonderful offensive midfielder.

Or he needs to learn to adapt his game – to use the skills he does have to control games, to learn when to unleash that dynamism he still has – for that he needs game intelligence something its unclear whether he can learn – plenty of players have dropped deeper in their careers but as has been pointed out we are currently weak in midfield – the idea its his preferred position is laughable – I prefer him there to Adam though - probbaly one of the reasons we keep trying three in midfield -  his stated preferred position is attacking central midfield behind the striker or strikers, making things happen, he’s being asked to play where he is because the team needs him to be there. The other option where  he would be excellent is right midfield but not sure his ego would wear it.

The first goal was evidence of the disarray in our defence. Why was Skrtel so deep? Why did both Spearing and Shelvey feign to close down Ben Arfa but neither actually do it? Why were Carragher and Enrique so flatfooted?

No the first goal was down to Skrtel dropping five yards instead of stepping up one.

The second goal was testament to the lack of presence and quality in the centre of midfield, Newcastle won the ball from a broken down attack deep in their half, they then passed the ball throughout the midfield with ease, with pace and most importantly without any pressure. No pressure. In fact the only time a Liverpool playergot within five feet of the ball was when Skrtel rushed out of the extremely deep back four and then the pass to Cisse was a simple one.

And five yards offside.

As for Carroll, s long as I live I'll never understand why he went down, it was a dive. Kenny is defending his player again, and to be honest it is testament to the man he is that he hasn't slaughtered him in the press because it was an embarrassment to the Club and to Kenny Dalglish. He was shown faith by getting a starting role, he then dives with the goal at his mercy, whines and moans for the rest of the game, playing the occasion and not the game, is subbed and shows disregard to his manager and his Club by stomping of down the tunnel hurling his shirt as he did so. He doesn't want to be here, he isn't good enough to be here, and he shouldn't be here when the league season kicks off in August.

I’d agree I’m not sure he wants to be here, the rest he’s a young man getting boo’d by probably the fans he considers his – he battered Newcastle on his own for about 15 minutes, until he realised the rest of the team had given up and then he joined them - he embarrassed himself which made the whole ordeal ten times worse – to me it looked like he anticipated the challenge, which never came and in doing that he over balanced and went down -  he has very slow feet. I genuinely hope this does not shorten your life span.  I also think Kenny made a terrible decision taking him off.

Kenny:
Quite simply isn't the problem, of course I am concerned at the lack of direction and game plan but he is entitled to a bad season and to reassess and regroup in the Summer. Of course he must take a degree of the blame, as all managers ultimately live and die by results but he has been let down by players, let down by the boardroom over important issues and has the nous to sort out the underlying problems. Last season showed he can get us playing and we don't know the dynamics of the relationship between him and Comolli to know who must take the 'blame' for whom.

Too early to say for me - some of our issues are definately down to management.

But these owners are an unknown entity and this run of form and failure to qualify for the CL is disappointing to say the least. He should be given more time and more money, but I doubt he'll get both and fear he won't get either.

I don’t think we should be looking to blame anybody there’s no point – we should be looking for whats wrong and fixing it.

[leivapool]

It was considered by almost everyone that with Dalglish, Clarke, Comolli, and Fenway, with stability off the pitch, unity amongst the fan base that we had a winning formula. Yet this summers transfer activity tore up the foundations of a potentially very good Liverpool side that had pass and move coursing through its veins in favour of the current mess we have seen turn out for large portions of the season. And the reasons as to why are beyond me. Out went the shithouse whose probably won more tackles that Charlie Adam this season, into oblivion went Maxi Rodriguez, the fluid style of play where interchanging positions was common place waved goodbye and a static, rigid, lifeless 4-4-2 replaced it.

Nonsense – we played excellent pass and move at the start of the season –

I disagreed with much of what you said, but this bit, this is revisionism at it's finest.  Go back to the post match threads, the Tottenham and Wolves matches in September,  the Norwich, Man U and Swansea games in October.  We may have had moments of pass and move, but we certainly did not play 'excellent pass and move' or anything resembling excellent pass and move.

[Roger Federer]

it was literally a couple of seconds after that screenshot

as you can see Ben Arfa is turning onto his left foot, he actually swings the ball in after that moment.

It isn't. I'm pretty sure. Because that is Ben Arfa getting away from Spearing, and he beat him and afterwards Shelvey, before he sent his cross in. He was much closer to our area when he crossed, it was 5-6 seconds later. Maybe we were too deep anyway, but Skrtel's positioning on the goal was the main reason we conceded. Spearing's and Shelvey's defending was also far worse than Carragher's in the whole scenario too.

I agree with the criticism of Carragher, and have done for years, but there's no need to blame him (more than anyone else), when others fuck up. Doesn't change anything long term, or even for the next game - I still want Skrtel, Agger or Coates to play instead - but I believe we should be as honest as we can, when assessing what went wrong, even if it's just a detail like this. I don't think Al really was, but it's possible he actually thinks Carragher did worse than Skrtel for the goal of course. I don't though.

[Yorkykopite]

It isn't. I'm pretty sure. Because that is Ben Arfa getting away from Spearing, and he beat him and afterwards Shelvey, before he sent his cross in. He was much closer to our area when he crossed, it was 5-6 seconds later. Maybe we were too deep anyway, but Skrtel's positioning on the goal was the main reason we conceded. Spearing's and Shelvey's defending was also far worse than Carragher's in the whole scenario too.

I agree with the criticism of Carragher, and have done for years, but there's no need to blame him (more than anyone else), when others fuck up. Doesn't change anything long term, or even for the next game - I still want Skrtel, Agger or Coates to play instead - but I believe we should be as honest as we can, when assessing what went wrong, even if it's just a detail like this. I don't think Al really was, but it's possible he actually thinks Carragher did worse than Skrtel for the goal of course. I don't though.

Roger's right. Skrtel played Cisse like a callow schoolkid. One might argue - at a stretch - that Martin has lost so much faith in Carragher holding any kind of line at all that he's decided to drop back with the man he's marking whatever happens. But that'd be a bit unfair in this case.

[Tsunami]

Thought I'd sign up to add a few thoughts from the outside. You didn't turn up at our place last year but this year you started the better, had our left side for the taking, conceded a goal against the run of play and never really recovered. After the 2nd goal you were a shambles.

There was no creativity, no leadership, a lack of closing down and an apparent acceptance of defeat. The decision to sub Carroll was crazy; KD will destroy the lad completely at this rate. He played him without width on both sides and a lack of crosses and then takes him off to a baying crowd and then introduces Downing.

Suarez and Carroll seem incapable of being a pair and I'd suggest that is more down to Suarez and your style of play than Carroll. I'd happily take Carroll back but we'd have to readjust to his strengths.

KD had a bit of a mare up here turning an attacking side into a ponderous, dour team. It was despite his management that we finished 2nd and got to the cup final. We went backwards from the moment he arrived. You need to let him go.

Lastly, we really aren't all wankers. Before and after the game away fans (except Sland) get a warm reception and can drink without worry (unless they are being a twat). Inside the ground we'll do whatever we can to encourage our team and put off the opposition - it's called support. Booing Carroll and Enrique is completely acceptable during the game. Afterwards Enrique stayed the night and went out with some of the players and Carroll regularly comes up and any trouble is of his own making.

You need to make some tough decisions to get back on track.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

Thought I'd sign up to add a few thoughts from the outside. You didn't turn up at our place last year but this year you started the better, had our left side for the taking, conceded a goal against the run of play and never really recovered. After the 2nd goal you were a shambles.

There was no creativity, no leadership, a lack of closing down and an apparent acceptance of defeat. The decision to sub Carroll was crazy; KD will destroy the lad completely at this rate. He played him without width on both sides and a lack of crosses and then takes him off to a baying crowd and then introduces Downing.

Suarez and Carroll seem incapable of being a pair and I'd suggest that is more down to Suarez and your style of play than Carroll. I'd happily take Carroll back but we'd have to readjust to his strengths.

KD had a bit of a mare up here turning an attacking side into a ponderous, dour team. It was despite his management that we finished 2nd and got to the cup final. We went backwards from the moment he arrived. You need to let him go.

Lastly, we really aren't all wankers. Before and after the game away fans (except Sland) get a warm reception and can drink without worry (unless they are being a twat). Inside the ground we'll do whatever we can to encourage our team and put off the opposition - it's called support. Booing Carroll and Enrique is completely acceptable during the game. Afterwards Enrique stayed the night and went out with some of the players and Carroll regularly comes up and any trouble is of his own making.

You need to make some tough decisions to get back on track.

Good user name.

Do you think Carroll really wants to be in Newcastle permanently? Do you think he wanted to move? Agree we need to make some tough decisions and quickly.

[Eeyore]

It isn't. I'm pretty sure. Because that is Ben Arfa getting away from Spearing, and he beat him and afterwards Shelvey, before he sent his cross in. He was much closer to our area when he crossed, it was 5-6 seconds later. Maybe we were too deep anyway, but Skrtel's positioning on the goal was the main reason we conceded. Spearing's and Shelvey's defending was also far worse than Carragher's in the whole scenario too.

I agree with the criticism of Carragher, and have done for years, but there's no need to blame him (more than anyone else), when others fuck up. Doesn't change anything long term, or even for the next game - I still want Skrtel, Agger or Coates to play instead - but I believe we should be as honest as we can, when assessing what went wrong, even if it's just a detail like this. I don't think Al really was, but it's possible he actually thinks Carragher did worse than Skrtel for the goal of course. I don't though.

You are spot on Ben Arfa beats Spearing and then runs seven or eight yards into space before he crosses and thats the problem for me. The defence and the midfield should be so compact in that situation that there simply isn't any space for Ben Arfa to run into.In those areas we should be hunting in packs and if you beat the first man the second and third should be putting pressure on the ball instantly. Ben Arfa has all the time in the world to pick his pass. Skrtels marking is piss poor for the goal but we shouldn't of been that deep.

When you play a top side you should have to work bloody hard and do something exceptional to push their defense that deep.With Carra in the side all you have to do is get the ball in our half. With Jamie in the side we end up with huge gaps between defence and midfield and between midfield and attack.

The art of modern football is to make the pitch as big as you can when you have the ball and as small as you can when they have the ball. When you drop off at the slightest danger you make it impossible to put pressure on the ball and you give them acres of space in between the lines to play in.

You stay compact and you can squeeze the life out of teams.

[Tsunami]

Good user name.

Do you think Carroll really wants to be in Newcastle permanently? Do you think he wanted to move? Agree we need to make some tough decisions and quickly.

Carroll is just a daft lad when it comes down to it. He's still immature and has a lot to learn to be a good pro. He appears to be unhappy with his lot and I do think he'd rather be up here. He knew his place, it was familiar and he'd earnt his spot and was performing increasingly well. We played to his strengths and the team at times protected and supported him when required.

He doesn't appear to have that at Liverpool and you've spent a shed load of money not to give the lad what he needs.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

Carroll is just a daft lad when it comes down to it. He's still immature and has a lot to learn to be a good pro. He appears to be unhappy with his lot and I do think he'd rather be up here. He knew his place, it was familiar and he'd earnt his spot and was performing increasingly well. We played to his strengths and the team at times protected and supported him when required.

He doesn't appear to have that at Liverpool and you've spent a shed load of money not to give the lad what he needs.

Interesting as common held opinion is that we spent millions to give him exactly what he needs.

[Tsunami]

Interesting as common held opinion is that we spent millions to give him exactly what he needs.

Is that the opinion down there? When he first went it sounded as if KD was providing some support (social) it seems he's now out and about town?

He needs an arm around the shoulder, a supporting word and friendship. He always appeared a little fragile and easily led astray up here (getting into trouble around town, behaving like a tit and breaking S Taylor's jaw come to mind). Nolan was a real support to him and he needs someone to keep him right.

On the pitch Suarez seems to largely ignore him and although you bought Downing the service from wide has been very poor. The join up play when you do knock the ball up to him isn't the the quickest and he gets isolated at times. Technically he's not bad, he has a decent touch but he's no Suarez and when he's not being used as the main target he's of limited use.

[Groundskeeper Willie]

Gerrard disappointed me to no end. Feels like he´s trying to presverve and save himself for the Euros this summer.

He needs to be called out on half arsed (not even that) like the against Newcastle. Has Kenny got the cojones to confront Gerrard? And the other passengers of course.

[Vulmea]

I disagreed with much of what you said, but this bit, this is revisionism at it's finest.  Go back to the post match threads, the Tottenham and Wolves matches in September,  the Norwich, Man U and Swansea games in October.  We may have had moments of pass and move, but we certainly did not play 'excellent pass and move' or anything resembling excellent pass and move.

we'll just continue to disagree on exactly who is being revisionist  - for each of those I'd  say Sunderland first half, Arsenal, , Stoke (though we lost), Bolton, Everton, Chelsea away twice. United and City I thought we matched the two top teams for football and edged both games towards the end when the game opened up and allowed us to play more -  thanks for sharing though

[1021]

Good post - enjoyed that and appreciate the thought and effort but pretty much disagree with most of it Trying to multi quote that would have been painful so I've tried something different below -
Just not true though – it might feel that way right now in our worst run for 50 years but it did not feel that way earlier in the season. The second half of the season has been dire – the period since Bolton away has been dire but up until 4 games ago we were on for 2 cups and 4th place.

I said from the start of the season that I didn't think our squad was good enough to qualify for the CL, predicting 5th place.
However, the simple fact is that having failed to extent an assault on forth place beyond February (at it was tenuous a that point) is hugely disappointing.

4-2-3-1 : Reina, Johnson, Enrique, Skrtel, Agger, Lucas, Henderson, Gerrard, Downing, Suarez, Carroll
Bench – any from: Jones, Doni, Flanagan, Kelly, Aurelio, Coates, Carragher, Spearing, Adam, Shelvey, Bellamy, Maxi, Kuyt, Sterling, Eccleston………
Personally I’d have Bellamy for Carroll  but hey ho.

Would you have Suarez off Carroll or out on the right of the three?
Gerrard is playing in the centre of midfield whether we like it or not and Adam was a mainstay in the centre even when Henderson and Lucas were fit and available.
That's your XI, but Kenny doesn't have one.
And up until Carragher's injury, that centre back pairing wasn't first choice either.

He was played deep in the middle of the park even when Lucas and Adam were fit.
No he hasn’t.

This could easily become a no he hasn't/yes he has debate.
But he really, has, he has played ahead of Andy Carroll. Yesterday Carroll was behind the play, and at home to Stoke in the Cup he was playing off Suarez from the offset, it's not as though he is dropping deeper as the game progresses in search of the ball, he is set out behind Luis.

In some games we played well in others we didn't - Braga, Spurs, Villa.

Braga, we were without the cup tied Luis Suarez and Carroll led the line leading us to appear disjointed and static.
Spurs and Villa were the last two games of the season; after an injury was sustained to Raul Meireles, and Spurs had pulled clear of us in the chse for fifth. They were dead rubbers without an influential midfielder.
The exceptions, when the rule was excellent football.

We scored three early goals two of them lucky and got battered for 20 minutes after half time.

Wouldn't you kill for us to fly out of the blocks like that more often? As I said it was blistering football, don't down play it. Because it was fucking boss.

Nonsense – we played excellent pass and move at the start of the season –

Seriously, name an occasion.

No it hasn’t. We had the best back four in the prem for months.We created more chances than any other side, we’ve hit the wood work more than any other side, we’ve won more trophies than any other side.

Best back four in the league was the product of an injury to Carragher allowing our best four defenders to play together.
I doubt we have created more chances than City, United, Spurs, and Arsenal. Go ahead an provide some stats.
Surely hitting the bar so often is indicative of ineffective forward play? Y'know, cos it isn't going in.
Yeah, cos it's April. Not the point really. Did Birmingham have it made because they were the only side with silverware to their name at this point last year?

Nah – they’d have asked for a left back , a left mid, a centre back, a centre mid and a striker. We pretty much got them all.

So a left back, a centre back, cover for Lucas, and support for Luis?
We got the first two, we got cover for Suarez in the shape of Craig Bellamy, a good signing but not reliable due to his injuries.
Lucas having no cover was serious mismanagement.

Other than Aurelio and Robinson and Johnson.

Fabio Aurelio wonderful though he is, is not cover for anyone.
Robinson, injured for much of the season, is 17 (and if Coates has to bide his time, we shouldn't be seeing anything of Jack for another five years)
Glen Johnson is a right back.
Fact is we could have done with him, he'd have provided excellent service for Carroll to stand and watch go past him, and is doing well in Lisbon.

I’m guessing you don’t like Adam

I don't think he is good enough to play for Liverpool FC, it's nothing personal, he tries his best.

Are these two things the crowd intolerance and him being a bag of nerves related – have the nerves increased as our league position has slumped – too much pressure on young shoulders?

yes they are.
I really like the lad, defended him to the hilt on here and in the ground and hope to God he is given enough time to become a star for us.

Unforgivable? Spearing is improving just as Lucas improved – are we supposed to keep journeyman players like Poulsen kicking their heels in the stiffs costing large sums and contributing little except low morale? Nah it has to be a youngster and why not Spearing?  If Lucas is an important as you suggest who steps in to those boots? Who do we have sitting around in the reserves waiting to become the lynchpin of the team when needed? Part of the issue was when Spearing could have spelled Lucas and could have stepped in he too was injured or suspended meaning we went with other players again.

We had to buy a player, there were hoards of us saying so in the summer, never mind in January. It was essential.

Spearing is a good little player, excellent for cup games and as a partner for Lucas in tough matches were we need defensive solidity, but he isn't good enough to fill the void if Lucas gets an injury as he has done. Fact is, it was coming. He had played for almost two solid calendar years, in the most physically tolling position on the field of play. He played too many games, he needed a quality replacement for rotation purposes not just in case of an emergency - stop gap measure.
It was a serious oversight.

And I've no idea what Poulsen has to do with anything.

Have we – I thought we kept varying our formations. If anything we have tried to force Carroll into a formation and style that he is uncomfortable with not the other way around.
You think we’ve built a team to Carroll’s strengths when we’ve barely seen a ball whipped in for him to attack all season?
Stewart Downing the conventional left winger who plays on the right? I thought most conventional wingers actually tried to take on their man and go down the outside once in a while?
Meireles who wasn’t going to be first XI but wanted to treble his wages and who wanted to link up with his pal AVB – exactly as per Aquilani – they got no guarantees,  in fact in Aquilani’s case he was told the opposite,  so they wanted out. They have both massively improved in people’s perception since they left.
Rodriguez is an odd one, my take for what its worth (which is very little) , he’s leaving at the end of the year – he’s on first team wages and he’s a squad player – so rather than play him they want to bed in the new recruits for next year.

We've played 4-4-2, and players were signed were players who fit into the traditional 4-4-2 formation and that clearly has had Carroll in mind, if we had bought more neat, tricky, pacy players I'd have thought we had Luis Suarez in mind.
Downing plays more often than not on the left, he played there almost unbroken for the first half of the season.
Meireles was told that his contract would be improved by Purslow but left in the pursuit of first team football. His old pal AVB was the same fella who sold him moments into his time at Porto. And Aquilani - is never going to get a reasoned debate on RAWK.
Fact is rather than maintain one quality offensive midfielder -even for squad purposes we sold the pair because they played in Gerrard's position or some rubbish like that, when our captain has been injured for the best part of two seasons.

Agreed. Not convinced he’s ever really wanted to be here.

Yep.

Agreed. Definitely has his eye on the FA Cup semi – the number of challenges he pulled out of against Newcastle……..

We simply cannot afford to have that kind of attitude on the field, least of all from the man who is meant to be leading the other players into battle.

He is standing up and making the decisions you just don’t like them. Coates himself said he has to be patient and learn didn’t he? Coates was playing when we conceded three in 15 minutes, Skrtel was at fault for Newcastle and Wigan’s first goals. Every centre back in the league are to blame for Van Persie’s goal record, Carra was not at fault for the sack full of missed chances against Arsenal and QPR.

But he was at fault for the goals that went in.
The forwards had done their job, they'd secured us a lead, and our defenders threw it away.
Carragher has had an instability to our defensive work, it's a fact.

You certainly like really really really exaggerating. His attitude has stunk, his work rate has not been good enough, he has always been a player who’s mentality is fragile, odd for a player who has pulled us up by his own personality on more than one occasion  and he’s still one of the best players the club has ever had – I’ve always thought the lad needs a captain like Souness or Roy Keane to bring the best from him – he’s never really had one. When he played against Cardiff you could see the sheer  desperation he had to succeed, right him off at your peril.

I've not written him off at all.
I'm just stating that he has not been fit enough to play for much of the last three years, and when he has done he has been poor, mostly because he is forcing himself into a position that he is not adept at.
He's had a career when he has shares a field of play with Hyypia, Carragher, Reina, Alonso, Mascherano, Hamann, Torres,and Lucas to name a few. Leaders and plenty of them. But now when we have hit this run of form we need our captain to pick up the slack and rally the troops and he is hiding. You acknowledged it yourself, it isn't good enough one eye of the semi-final or not.

Or he needs to learn to adapt his game – to use the skills he does have to control games, to learn when to unleash that dynamism he still has – for that he needs game intelligence something its unclear whether he can learn – plenty of players have dropped deeper in their careers but as has been pointed out we are currently weak in midfield – the idea its his preferred position is laughable – I prefer him there to Adam though - probbaly one of the reasons we keep trying three in midfield -  his stated preferred position is attacking central midfield behind the striker or strikers, making things happen, he’s being asked to play where he is because the team needs him to be there. The other option where  he would be excellent is right midfield but not sure his ego would wear it.

His team need him up creating chances and winning matches not taking the ball from the toes of his centre back and hitting the ball long more in hope than expectation.
There are a tonne of alternatives even with our depleted squad, but as you say, he ego won't wear it. And is that what you want from your leader?

No the first goal was down to Skrtel dropping five yards instead of stepping up one.

Look at Al555's recent posts.

And five yards offside.

Not the point, it shouldn't have come to that. We should know better than to let a side walk through our midfield with ease and not expect problems.
Defend as a team.

I’d agree I’m not sure he wants to be here, the rest he’s a young man getting boo’d by probably the fans he considers his – he battered Newcastle on his own for about 15 minutes, until he realised the rest of the team had given up and then he joined them - he embarrassed himself which made the whole ordeal ten times worse – to me it looked like he anticipated the challenge, which never came and in doing that he over balanced and went down -  he has very slow feet. I genuinely hope this does not shorten your life span.  I also think Kenny made a terrible decision taking him off.

Yep.


Thanks for your response, done my best to reply without taking up too much space.
We didn't disagree on *that* much, and I've clarified myself re: Kenny in subsequent posts

[Barney_Rubble]

Stick to the game ffs.

Almost every bloody thread is homogenising into the same, relentless boring shite.