Topic: Would this formation work?

[Jonno]

Before you guys murder me with this thought, would love your view on the following.

Been thinking about this since the last game of the season, had a bit of a reflect on our season and while we played brilliantly towards the end of the season, from February onwards to be precise, there are times where we are unable to break the teams down, particularly when we come up against opponent who has a good DM, especially the other big 3. However, the result of 4 draws and 2 defeats doesn’t read well, and throw in the draws to Birmingham, Wigan, loss to Reading and other results.
Since we changed to the 4 – 2 – 3 – 1 formation, things are a little different, the play began to flow, we begin to open teams up more, and as a result, the result in general improved. Still, the general play is still a bit lacking, where we probe and probe until they break before capitalising on their mistakes. However, when we come up against teams with very good DMs, like Makalele at Chelsea, Carrick at the Mancs, to a lesser extent the likes of Flamini, we struggle to break the team down as the gap between Torres and the supporting 3 of Gerrard, Kuyt and Babel (or Benayoun) is being widen as the DM would play in between them and stop the supply getting to Torres to do the damage. This is seen time and again, most notably in the match against the Mancs and the CL Semi against Chelsea. The supporting 3 especially Gerrard was subdued by the opposition DM, making him play deeper, and less effective in linking up against Torres.
What if the formation is tweaked a little, from 4 – 2 – 3 – 1 to 4 – 1 – 3 – 1 – 1? With the same line up (assuming the team doesn’t change)Mascherano still sits in front of the back 4, but Alonso is moved to behind Torres, making him an attacking defensive midfielder (if that makes sense to you). His job would be to counter the opposition DM, in taking away the attention they would otherwise give to the likes of Gerrard. And limit the link up play. The role is a bit like the nobber of old, only that it’s done higher up the pitch, and instead of using an attacking midfielder against the DM, we are putting another DM to nullify them. I have noticed that the biggest threat aren’t from the likes of Joe Cole, C*** Ronaldo or Walcott, but the DM who would spread the ball to them, making the slide rule pass, the short passes in which they would use against their opponent. If this supply is interrupted or even cut off, they would have no inlet, no way to get the ball out of their defensive third, making them play a little deeper, and hard to get out of their own half. Many would point out that such formation is suspect to the odd long ball to the front man, especially if the likes of Drogba is chasing them down, down forget Monster Masch is there to help out the defence, he would be like the 5th defender, ensuring the striker doesn’t get a whiff of the ball.
Another variation of this formation is to switch Alonso with Mascherano, especially against big teams, imagine Mascherano against the likes of Carrick or Hargraeves or Makalele, where he doesn’t give them an inch to move and to pass the ball. This would also throw the DMs off their game as they would normally be up against attacking player that is trying to get pass them rather than someone that is trying to stop them. That way, with the supporting 3 would be able to really support, get forward of the front DM and properly support Torres in a (ideally) 4 vs 4 situation.

Any Comment? 

Sorry, edited.

[Bosshog]

are u for real

"would formation this work?"..........mmmmmmm

[Greg]

So Alonso is in the Gerrard position?

Can you actually write the formation down in the normal way, with your preferred players in it?

[Jonno]

are u for real

"would formation this work?"..........mmmmmmm

hahaha

Sorry, a bit too fast, when I realised it, it was too late, edited...

[PaislyShankley]

Most formations are fluid dependent on what's happening on the pitch at any given time.

[Baz76]

Interesting to see how the current formation would work with more offensive full backs and a bit more pizazz; rather than perspiration on the right!

[Jonno]

So Alonso is in the Gerrard position?

Can you actually write the formation down in the normal way, with your preferred players in it?

Not too good with this thing, but here goes:
The back 5

                                   Mascherano

Kuyt                                Gerrard                              Babel

                                        Alonso

                                        Torres

[Jonno]

Most formations are fluid dependent on what's happening on the pitch at any given time.

Agree, but then again, my thought was that perhaps this could be used to try and counter the inability (at times this season) to penetrate the opposition as the DM is sweeping everything and starting atacks. Thus far, we have yet to be able to do anything about it, yet.

[Lacey]

I know its your a-typical sceptic remark, but...


'this isnt football manager'.

alonso is a defensive midfielder, this isnt just a fancy listing someone decided to put on him once, he likes to play deep, pick up the ball from defneders or masch, turn and look up at the pitch in front of him, allowing him space and time to think and pick his pass and create a move.

In front of our midfield he would be at sea, would be caught for pace and relatively ineffective i think. its a nice enough idea though, might try it on Fm later honest.

what we need, is an actual attacking midfielder, something for all the 'fantastic understanding' he shares with torres gerrard is NOT, someone who is used to playing that position and reading the spaces quickly, seeing between the gaps and nimble on their feet. Aimar is a good example, kranjcar does this too i think and i always find hleb class at it. gerrard is a central midfielder, when he gets the ball with space to play with he can be lethal at picking out torres, what we really need tho in my opinion to tackle what your talking about is someone who can spend their whole game trying to pick out those spaces then look to receive the ball. Gerrard gets too consumed in actually getting involved in the game. might sound silly buts its why Harry redknapp said the likes of d'allesandro would never work in england, cos english fans just arent used to players like that and no one ever really tries to play them in the game. Effectively your playing with ten in terms of closing down and general build up, whilst your creative outlet goes in search of a gap, then if he gets the ball bang killer ball sent through. english game doesnt suit that mostly because english mentality is for everyone to earn their socks. Interesting to see if rafa plays with that a bit. garcia might have been that type of player really. useless in general link up but could find space and when the pass to him was right in the right space he was killer. just didnt play him like that really

[RobbieRedman]

someones going to remind you about a certain other thread in a minute...........

[Jonno]

I know its your a-typical sceptic remark, but...


'this isnt football manager'.

alonso is a defensive midfielder, this isnt just a fancy listing someone decided to put on him once, he likes to play deep, pick up the ball from defneders or masch, turn and look up at the pitch in front of him, allowing him space and time to think and pick his pass and create a move.

In front of our midfield he would be at sea, would be caught for pace and relatively ineffective i think. its a nice enough idea though, might try it on Fm later honest.

Let us know how it works in FM. Honestly, I don't even play FM, would ove to but just don't have the time or patience now. Would rather think up something like this. 

Would he really be caught for pace? It's the start of the attack and DMs are generally not that fast, compare to the attacking ones. This is to allow the supporting 3 behind him to get beyond him and do the attacking, plus there's an option of him spraying short(er) passes to the flanks or slipping one through to Torres. 

[Lacey]

Let us know how it works in FM. Honestly, I don't even play FM, would ove to but just don't have the time or patience now. Would rather think up something like this. 

Would he really be caught for pace? It's the start of the attack and DMs are generally not that fast, compare to the attacking ones. This is to allow the supporting 3 behind him to get beyond him and do the attacking, plus there's an option of him spraying short(er) passes to the flanks or slipping one through to Torres. 

read above, i updated my post

also, masch, hargreaves, diarra, flamini, gattuso..

any defensive mids i can think of are quick fuckers. theyd have to be to get across and break up the play as its developing

[BURNA]

It's common knowledge that modern day managers swear by FM to aid them with their jobs.

[Sarge]

Not too good with this thing, but here goes:
The back 5

                                   Mascherano

Kuyt                                Gerrard                              Babel

                                        Alonso

                                        Torres

Why? Swap Gerrard with Xabi and it is pretty much what we played for the last half of the season.

[Jonno]

It's common knowledge that modern day managers swear by FM to aid them with their jobs.

Let us know how it works in FM. Honestly, I don't even play FM

 

[Matts]

Didnt we used to pretty much do that in Momo's first/ maybe second season? He played high up the pitch dominating midfielders

[Kop]

Why? Swap Gerrard with Xabi and it is pretty much what we played for the last half of the season.

Yep, Stevies better mobility and drive mens he is better suited to that position behind Torres.  That said the basic principle of pushing Xabi further up the pitch is a valid one I think.

[minusone]

Totally sceptical about the initial premise for this concept...

Although giving it some hypothetical legs... i would maybe suggest you not put Alonso up there, for the reasons of mobility etc stated above. I'd suggest someone along the lines of Benayoun or even Pennant would be better. Admittedly both are lightweight on the ball, but out of our current squad both have better close quarters control which would be needed in a crowded area on the edge of the box, and could slip the pass to an on-rushing Gerrard or a pouncing Torres.

I think i've suggested this before in another thread, and i cbf finding which one, but it went something like this...

                          Alonso             Mascherano
                               
                                     Gerrard
                 Kuyt                                           Babel                             
                                       Torres

It looks the same as now, except the change is in the philosophy. Babel and Kuyt(or a replacement) rather than playing as wingers-esque players, play more of a front 3 with Torres, switching positions behind him as the focus of the attacking 3. The width on the wings would come from 2 attacking FB's like Aurelio (which we have, when fit) and Degen (apparently he is of the attacking FB mould), and the additional cover required when these FB's take turns getting forward would come from the CB's pushing out wider and either or both of the DM's dropping back towards the centre of defence when required, plus Stevie can be quick at getting back when he feels like it.

Then, with the 2 wider strikers drawing defenders out of position or across the edge of teh box with their runs, Stevie would have space to make a nuisance of himself, or to receive a pass back and a shooting chance from not too far out.

Obviously issues still have to be worked out, and well drilled defenses won't be so easy to manipulate, but against some of the shitter teams, smart running and the piledrivers from Stevie might see continued pressure on the defenders and goalkeeper and so mistakes made.

Fuck you if you disagree with me, Rafa told me all this in a dream i had.

[SupaDupaReds]

mate, i swear thats the same formation as we're playing now, just written down a bit different.

my idea is to fuck kuyt off, get a 2nd striker in to support torres, play babel as a wing forward from the "other" side, and keep the rest as it is.

p.s. you couldnt play xabi in the hole on FM, wouldnt suit his natural game and "preferred moves." he's 30 on my game now and a world class DM.

[Red Heaven]

with Xabi playing so far up the pitch it take out his passing game which is his best quality

[nutmeg94]

If you wanted someone to mark the opposing DM, Gerrard would suit the role better than Alonso, as Stevie is more mobile and better defensively.  Of course that would entail buying a real playmaker to provide for Torres while Stevie is defending.

We could apply your philosophy using the same line-up as we do now:

                 Alonso         Masch

(playmaker)       Gerrard       Babel
                           
                          Torres