Author Topic: Gerrard - quoted as 'Gerrard open to move from Liverpool'  (Read 143661 times)

Offline gritsvanilla

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Re: Gerrard - quoted as 'Gerrard open to move from Liverpool'
« Reply #1320 on: November 11, 2014, 05:26:56 pm »
People have been saying this for three seasons. He's come around each time.

Well let's hope you're right mate. We'll know more once Sturridge is back. Still doesn't alter the fact that we seem as a club to be refusing to do anything about replacing him long term.

Offline harryc

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Re: Gerrard - quoted as 'Gerrard open to move from Liverpool'
« Reply #1321 on: November 11, 2014, 05:30:47 pm »
Well let's hope you're right mate. We'll know more once Sturridge is back. Still doesn't alter the fact that we seem as a club to be refusing to do anything about replacing him long term.

Maybe Brendan does not want a box to box midfielder like Gerrard of the past but at the moment because of his own tenious position can not drop him either.

Offline lorenzo23

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Re: Gerrard - quoted as 'Gerrard open to move from Liverpool'
« Reply #1322 on: November 11, 2014, 06:04:59 pm »
People have been saying this for three seasons. He's come around each time.
Kenny season? And Rodgers first? And first of last season? 😟 I must of watched different Gerrard.
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Re: Gerrard - quoted as 'Gerrard open to move from Liverpool'
« Reply #1323 on: November 11, 2014, 06:12:36 pm »
Maybe Brendan does not want a box to box midfielder like Gerrard of the past but at the moment because of his own tenious position can not drop him either.

Are you an Angler ?

you get Lame Duck Presidents not Lame Duck Liverpool Managers.
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Re: Gerrard - quoted as 'Gerrard open to move from Liverpool'
« Reply #1324 on: November 11, 2014, 06:13:29 pm »
Yeah his stuff is always great
The defensive drop off Gerrard has had this season is alarming - you just can't have someone contributing that little off the ball in that position. Something has to change or our results wont

If you look at Gerrard's performances this season defensively, it's been as bad as the early games he played in that position against the likes of Villa, Swansea and Stoke. After that he still had games like Cardiff and Palace where we conceded 3 away goals, or Norwich who were cutting through us at will when we should have been able to shut them out at 2-0, so to a degree he still struggled defensively last season in that position . But in that run-in he was a lot sharper and his numbers were better. And of course offensively and on the ball he was 10 x better than this season, although you have to factor S&S&S into that (ditto Henderson, Coutinho and Sterling).

I'm sure Gerrard's performances will pick up at some point this season because he's not finished by any means and is still a quality player. When he does start playing better then you'll get people saying how could you ever doubt him and his role in the team but at that point we could be out the CL and miles off the pace for the top 4 after a dreadful first half of the season.

I think there's a lot of symmetry between Toure and Gerrard. Toure's a cracking player but always been a liability for City in Europe in a midfield two because he just gets played through. City struggle to control games with him in the middle and although they can get away with that in the Prem, they can't in Europe. I think City need to build a midfield without Toure and Liverpool a midfield without Gerrard.
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Offline Notayesman

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Re: Gerrard - quoted as 'Gerrard open to move from Liverpool'
« Reply #1325 on: November 11, 2014, 06:24:51 pm »
Pretty good article on Gerrard and Toure's struggles this year.

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/steven-gerrard-yaya-toure-aging-midfielders/

Everyone should read that.

Offline -Daws-

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Re: Gerrard - quoted as 'Gerrard open to move from Liverpool'
« Reply #1326 on: November 11, 2014, 06:25:27 pm »
It was around this time last year that I wrote at length about our skipper.

The general gist was that of expectation. That his body was slowly in decline. That although his anaerobic fitness (the ability to perform multiple sprints with short recovery time) would gradually fall off a cliff,  he still had something significant to offer the squad and his technical qualities would find their place in our system. I was quite harsh on Gerrard (bar the romanticism in his exploits and miracles he had pulled off for the club in the past) but my point was a fairly clear one; Stevie was becoming very much a luxury player in regards to what he could offer and produce in any given game. His playing time had to be managed over the next 12 months; that was an expectancy on my part and Gerrard continued into the second half of the season expressing his superb vision and ability to be a key player at the highest level with several swashbuckling performances in his new quarterback role.

Twelve months later (maybe a tad more) this expectation hasn’t been met. Gerrard has still played a significantly numerous amount of minutes for club and country, being used heavily, and where once the way we played suited Gerrard with space being created for him by two forwards always looking to get in behind the defence with superb 1v1 qualities, pushing defenders back, giving Stevie the time and space receive the pass, get his head up, with multiple targets to aim for long and short, things have evolved (or devolved) since then.

But I’m not really here to discuss the tactical issues Gerrard has had with the loss of Suarez (and Sturridge thus far) as this is already something which is being discussed and covered pretty coherently by others and seems fairly obvious. Without a significant goal and pace threat to push teams back, teams are pinning us in more, we’re stuck deeper, Gerrard isn’t being given the time and space he needs as his nervous system slows down and he needs that extra split second to adjust his body shape and the ball to pull off each pass. The quicker he is pressed, the more trouble he is in, rendering his game almost inoperable when man marked (and this has always been a weakness of his no matter what year or position he is in).

It’s a pretty fundamental flaw in Gerrard’s inclusion at the moment. We simply cannot get the best out of him with the systems current set up. Without those runners, without that time and space on the ball, and Gerrard’s weaknesses – his positional sense, his inability to turn quickly and his lack of acceleration, are being ruthlessly exploited with little to nothing gained. A lob sided back four does him no favours, and the way they drop off after he has been beaten often hinders his ability to recover a situation as nobody is slowing the opposition up substantially.

But as I aforementioned, this is not really my gripe, for want of a better word, for Gerrard’s constant inclusion. I have always enjoyed writing and discussing at length systems, spaces, shape etc, and as a whole I think Brendan is making a major error in persisting with players he ‘trusts’ rather than players who would suit how we are playing at the moment and have done since Suarez’ departure. It’s arguable that Mignolet, Johnson, Skrtel, Gerrard and all our strikers bar Sturridge are not in tandem with how Brendan sold us his vision and how we played last year. Yet they are ‘trusted’ and played pretty religiously. It’s baffling, and I expect a lot more from Brendan given his obvious eye and knowledge for the game. He’s almost breaking his own rules.

But as is so often the case I digress. There is so much more to football than a functional or dysfunctional system. It could be conceived as unfair to criticise Gerrard in particularly given the issues we have revolve around with how Brendan is setting us up to play at the moment, we have to look at our long standing captain as a focal point. He plays even when he isn’t playing well, he plays most competitions, he usually plays the full 90, he doesn’t suit the way we should be playing, and he is playing badly.

But it’s challenging, in fact impossible, to get irritated at Gerrard for his misgivings currently. He is a notorious slow starter, even in his pomp when he was one of the best in Europe, it always took Gerrard a couple of months to get out of the blocks. Couple this with Brendan’s philosophy to condition players to peak physically around New Year, and I think even if we were playing well, people would be once again questioning Gerrard’s inclusion. Hell, even if we were playing like this but picking up points regularly, it would be over looked until Stevie comes good again and ‘defies the doubters’, proving the haters wrong. This is true, but not necessarily right.

I feel for Steven. My heart aches for the man right now. History repeats itself but it gets all the crueller. Those of us with any sense will never look at Gerrard and think ‘you lost the title’. There were plenty of other opportunities to pick up points that we missed long before Chelsea closed ranks at Anfield. But you can bet your bottomest of dollars, that every time Stevie glimpses himself in a mirror, he will think that very quote. It’s human nature. Alex, Brendan, Stevie’s parents and everybody else involved significantly in his life will tell him this is not the case lad, but he will think it is. He never shirks responsibility, and he will feel responsible.

But this is only one of the latest tales of woe. Of course we have had this before where Gerrard has given everything and been left with nothing. After United pipped us to the title in 2009, Gerrard looked exhausted, the player the team was built around as Gerrard had adapted to playing with, left the club for the bright white shirts of Real. The season after two of the other key players jumped ship in Mascherano and Torres for the Spanish sun and London; Gerrard was left again, as the one world class player in a rebuilding operation starting pretty much from scratch after the club went through its most horrendous financial crisis in decades.

The previous rebuild had occurred after the departure of another star forward who allowed Gerrard to play his game, when his boyhood pal Michael Owen left for a measly fee back in 2004. It had been a couple of seasons since we were last in with a shot and narrowly missed out, and there was a Rafalution on the horizon to be embarked upon, but this was the first sign for Gerrard that the team mates he built a game and relationship with would eventually flee for foreign lands and leave Gerrard every single time as the juggernaut surrounded by foot soldiers.  Gerrard has had this time and time again and having lost out on the title by a whisker in part due to a monumental error on his part, and arguably the best player he has ever played with flying the nest, again. He enters his 35th year still devoid of a league winner’s medal, and can surely feel the walls closing in.

There’s no reason either why he would forget the world cup in too much of a hurry, as much as he’d like to. He led a squad to footballs heart in Brazil with young, exciting talents around him, some of whom he had played with at International level for years, and several who had been part of an epic title challenge with him over the last 9 months. He must have felt there was a chance of competing. Even with Roy in charge I would argue with all the pundits and Roy and say that is one of the most exciting England squads to ever fly off shore. The nation may not have expected, but I suspect Gerrard might have.

You’d think that lightening couldn’t strike twice. Any England collapse that may have occurred couldn’t be pinned on Gerrard as simply as the title crumble had. However it did, and as Gerrard mis-timed his jump, the ball flicking off his head into the path of his soon to depart deadly striker at club level, Gerrard watched helplessly as Luis did exactly what Gerrard had seen so many times previously and fired accurately into the net, dashing any hopes England had of climbing out the group stage. Again, Gerrard will be playing that phase of play over and over again in his head. If only he had jumped a split second early, if only he hadn’t jumped at all, the timeline and events that ensued may have deviated massively. It’s crucifying, psychologically.

He needs a break. It’s been his most testing 6 months in football that he’s ever had emotionally. To be so close and to lose it all on the tred of the turf will be tearing him up inside as he sees any chance of a title medal slowly dissipate further and further away to a land he hasn’t got the legs left to make. The man is human, as we sometimes seem to forget, and we can all relate to huge pressures, build ups, and disappointments in all walks of life that significantly halt us from moving forward. Our brains do not let us just ‘forget’ traumatic events. There is not a day that will pass where Gerrard does not revisit his slip and he is likely petrified he will never have a day without a memory of it if he fails to clasp his hands round the Premier League trophy before he hangs ‘em up. He will torment himself, as so many of us do.

He needs a rest. Not just physically but mentally. The pressure he is under at the moment is ridiculous and now his long lasting supporters of such a truly great, legendary footballer are beginning to turn on him as he grasps onto a hope that he can make things right. It’s probably too late for him to make things right by being on the pitch regularly. Liverpool need to move forward and so does Stevie. He needs to realise that he still has a wealth of quality to offer this team if he is managed in the right way, played at the appropriate times, and that the team is now to be built around the likes of Raheem, Phil and Sturridge to move forward. Gerrard must pass the responsibility on to these lads and play a more supportive role. His experience around the dressing room, knowledge of the game and games where his technical ability can shine without his physical ability causing us more problems should now be his focus. It might be difficult for him, like accepting your spouse leaving you, but you have to do it for everybody to move on.

The responsibility truly lies with Rodgers. Brendan must have seen the change in Gerrard’s perspective, the damage last season and summer have done to a man who has suffered this fate so many times before and now finds himself in a position where he can’t wrestle things back as his legs slow. Its clear Gerrard is massively distracted as well as suffering from the natural hindrances age brings to a previously such explosive player. His contract being up in the air is something else that will be drawing Gerrard’s attention away from the pitch and that needs to be tied up as soon as possible. Give him an extension, but reduce his expectancy on playing time. I don’t think money has too much to do with it.

Rodgers needs to allow some space for Gerrard to pull his head back together, some time away from the limelight. He needs to be brave and take the flack he may get from the media manager and prove that he knows best. Gerrard is having a really tough time physically and emotionally and it is costing the team, it is costing Gerrard his longevity, and it’s costing Rodgers his reputation. It would best for all parties to give Gerrard a bit of a rest, let the experienced pro that is Lucas Levia come in and add some stability with his positional sense and knowledge of the position. His qualities suit us more than Gerrard’s right now and he hasn’t got his head in a mess over a title slip and disastrous world cup. Let him go and play, let Gerrard g and rest his mind.

It’s vital that Rodgers does this soon, in my opinion. Gerrard is of course a symbolic figure and leader at the club, but if he had any other name and had put in these performances he has this season he’d have been dropped a long time ago. Good performances need rewards, and poor ones need punishing. Right now the lack of faith Rodgers is showing other players and the lack of meritocracy in the team selections is a poor example to young players and potential recruits. Rodgers needs to be brave for him, Gerrard, and most importantly Liverpool Football Club, if they make the right decisions, neither Gerrard nor Rodgers will ever have to walk alone.
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Offline redprodigal

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Re: Gerrard - quoted as 'Gerrard open to move from Liverpool'
« Reply #1327 on: November 11, 2014, 06:36:18 pm »
Great post Daws  :wellin


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Re: Gerrard - quoted as 'Gerrard open to move from Liverpool'
« Reply #1329 on: November 11, 2014, 07:05:58 pm »
Talk has been pretty big out here too, apparently earmarked by Beckham for Miami, I can see it too.

Exactly the one I've heard from a semi-decent source.
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Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Gerrard - quoted as 'Gerrard open to move from Liverpool'
« Reply #1330 on: November 11, 2014, 07:06:44 pm »
that is one well balanced and astute post Daws !
A world were Liars and Hypocrites are accepted and rewarded and honest people are derided!
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Offline na fir dearg

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Re: Gerrard - quoted as 'Gerrard open to move from Liverpool'
« Reply #1331 on: November 11, 2014, 07:29:38 pm »
Immense post from -Daws-

Offline garcia-alonso

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Re: Gerrard - quoted as 'Gerrard open to move from Liverpool'
« Reply #1332 on: November 11, 2014, 07:55:54 pm »
I've read some fantastic posts on this site over the years, but that's one of the best Daws. Brilliant.

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Re: Gerrard - quoted as 'Gerrard open to move from Liverpool'
« Reply #1334 on: November 11, 2014, 08:18:47 pm »
Really enjoyed reading that Daws. Quality writing that encompasses everything Gerrard was and is  :wellin
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Re: Gerrard - quoted as 'Gerrard open to move from Liverpool'
« Reply #1335 on: November 11, 2014, 08:22:32 pm »
To echo everyone else Daws, eloquent, poignant and emotional.. Brilliant.

Offline karl740

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Re: Gerrard - quoted as 'Gerrard open to move from Liverpool'
« Reply #1336 on: November 11, 2014, 08:25:08 pm »
Gerrard still has plenty to offer but he shouldn't be playing/starting as much as he is. Rodgers needs to have the balls to drop/rotate gerrard more

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Re: Gerrard - quoted as 'Gerrard open to move from Liverpool'
« Reply #1337 on: November 11, 2014, 08:27:45 pm »
Good post there daws, also there's the england uruguay game in the summer too

Offline Fromola

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Re: Gerrard - quoted as 'Gerrard open to move from Liverpool'
« Reply #1338 on: November 11, 2014, 08:34:23 pm »
Good post there daws, also there's the england uruguay game in the summer too

I could empathise with Gerrard a bit further as well if he was regretting giving up England for the sake of this when he looks at this train wreck of a season and the total anti-climax of being back in the CL this season and from the highs of last season to this. It could add to his general angst this season which is clearly manifested on the pitch.

Whatever we think of Hodgson and England, Gerrard loved playing for his country. You wonder whether he'd rather be at Melwood this week or preparing to play Scotland.
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

Offline GrkStav

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Re: Gerrard - quoted as 'Gerrard open to move from Liverpool'
« Reply #1339 on: November 11, 2014, 09:15:48 pm »
This is effectively the Gerrard thread, and I don't want to rouse the usual reactions to my constantly focusing on Lucas, but I'd like to add something to Daws' outstanding piece:

Unless what he proposes takes place soon, unless Lucas starts playing a bit more regularly, he will no longer be around as an option past January. I know some will rejoice at that prospect; perhaps we'll thereby be motivated to bring in the midfielder they've been pining for. Fair enough. Still, whilst Gerrard is and will always be the biggest priority, even 'good soldier' Lucas has his pride.
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Re: Gerrard - quoted as 'Gerrard open to move from Liverpool'
« Reply #1340 on: November 11, 2014, 09:25:57 pm »
Lucas should get more game time while he's still here no doubt and he is a fine squad player but he too gets bypassed because of his lack of pace so we should deffo be looking for a top replacement for this position asap.

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Re: Gerrard - quoted as 'Gerrard open to move from Liverpool'
« Reply #1341 on: November 11, 2014, 09:33:08 pm »
That is an absolutley boss post Daws. well in lad.

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Re: Gerrard - quoted as 'Gerrard open to move from Liverpool'
« Reply #1342 on: November 11, 2014, 09:38:13 pm »
I don't post too often but just want to credit that awesome piece of writing and perspective..
Daws, that was a superb post. Everyone need to see that.

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Re: Gerrard - quoted as 'Gerrard open to move from Liverpool'
« Reply #1343 on: November 11, 2014, 09:56:43 pm »
Cracking post Daws. Exposes the blood and sinew of the challenges we all glibly post about. Bravo.

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Re: Gerrard - quoted as 'Gerrard open to move from Liverpool'
« Reply #1344 on: November 11, 2014, 10:13:32 pm »
I saw Callys legs go and I saw Nichols legs go, ....and with them respect for some my fellow Liverpool fans ..both were asked to perform in a way their bodies couldn't..both got slaughtered in the end (and this is in the Seventies and Eighties!) ..I recall fans tearing up the pink Echo after a game in the Park 'cos Michael Charter ( The Echo Liverpool reporter for many a year) dared to make Cally MOTM  ........Gerrard is being asked to play in a way his body cant nor the team can afford..he's been asked to do too much ...but he has so much still to offer the team....if its not addressed, I fear the same outcome  as Cally and Nichol, he ( and they) deserve more.

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Re: Gerrard - quoted as 'Gerrard open to move from Liverpool'
« Reply #1345 on: November 11, 2014, 10:15:23 pm »
Superb post that Daws, a must read for any Red.

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Re: Gerrard - quoted as 'Gerrard open to move from Liverpool'
« Reply #1346 on: November 11, 2014, 10:16:52 pm »
Lucas should get more game time while he's still here no doubt and he is a fine squad player but he too gets bypassed because of his lack of pace so we should deffo be looking for a top replacement for this position asap.
Like Grkstav I dont want to derail the thread, but can you tell me what you mean by 'bypassed' so I can compare the stats for it for Lucas and other players  playing as DM?  ???
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Re: Gerrard - quoted as 'Gerrard open to move from Liverpool'
« Reply #1347 on: November 11, 2014, 11:00:37 pm »
Like Grkstav I dont want to derail the thread, but can you tell me what you mean by 'bypassed' so I can compare the stats for it for Lucas and other players  playing as DM?  ???

For an example of "bypassed"... just watch Gerrard's performance against Chelsea :(

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Re: Gerrard - quoted as 'Gerrard open to move from Liverpool'
« Reply #1348 on: November 11, 2014, 11:05:27 pm »
Like Grkstav I dont want to derail the thread, but can you tell me what you mean by 'bypassed' so I can compare the stats for it for Lucas and other players  playing as DM?  ???

When i say bypassed I mean left trailing in the wake of opponents because of his lack of speed. I don't like all these stats as they don't always show the true picture and don't need them when my eyes tell can me the truth.

Offline kcbworth

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Re: Gerrard - quoted as 'Gerrard open to move from Liverpool'
« Reply #1349 on: November 11, 2014, 11:35:44 pm »
I know I'll be crucified for saying this, but I'm really starting to ...

Wrong thread

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Re: Gerrard - quoted as 'Gerrard open to move from Liverpool'
« Reply #1350 on: November 11, 2014, 11:51:34 pm »
It was around this time last year that I wrote at length about our skipper.

The general gist was that of expectation. That his body was slowly in decline. That although his anaerobic fitness (the ability to perform multiple sprints with short recovery time) would gradually fall off a cliff,  he still had something significant to offer the squad and his technical qualities would find their place in our system. I was quite harsh on Gerrard (bar the romanticism in his exploits and miracles he had pulled off for the club in the past) but my point was a fairly clear one; Stevie was becoming very much a luxury player in regards to what he could offer and produce in any given game. His playing time had to be managed over the next 12 months; that was an expectancy on my part and Gerrard continued into the second half of the season expressing his superb vision and ability to be a key player at the highest level with several swashbuckling performances in his new quarterback role.

Twelve months later (maybe a tad more) this expectation hasn’t been met. Gerrard has still played a significantly numerous amount of minutes for club and country, being used heavily, and where once the way we played suited Gerrard with space being created for him by two forwards always looking to get in behind the defence with superb 1v1 qualities, pushing defenders back, giving Stevie the time and space receive the pass, get his head up, with multiple targets to aim for long and short, things have evolved (or devolved) since then.

But I’m not really here to discuss the tactical issues Gerrard has had with the loss of Suarez (and Sturridge thus far) as this is already something which is being discussed and covered pretty coherently by others and seems fairly obvious. Without a significant goal and pace threat to push teams back, teams are pinning us in more, we’re stuck deeper, Gerrard isn’t being given the time and space he needs as his nervous system slows down and he needs that extra split second to adjust his body shape and the ball to pull off each pass. The quicker he is pressed, the more trouble he is in, rendering his game almost inoperable when man marked (and this has always been a weakness of his no matter what year or position he is in).

It’s a pretty fundamental flaw in Gerrard’s inclusion at the moment. We simply cannot get the best out of him with the systems current set up. Without those runners, without that time and space on the ball, and Gerrard’s weaknesses – his positional sense, his inability to turn quickly and his lack of acceleration, are being ruthlessly exploited with little to nothing gained. A lob sided back four does him no favours, and the way they drop off after he has been beaten often hinders his ability to recover a situation as nobody is slowing the opposition up substantially.

But as I aforementioned, this is not really my gripe, for want of a better word, for Gerrard’s constant inclusion. I have always enjoyed writing and discussing at length systems, spaces, shape etc, and as a whole I think Brendan is making a major error in persisting with players he ‘trusts’ rather than players who would suit how we are playing at the moment and have done since Suarez’ departure. It’s arguable that Mignolet, Johnson, Skrtel, Gerrard and all our strikers bar Sturridge are not in tandem with how Brendan sold us his vision and how we played last year. Yet they are ‘trusted’ and played pretty religiously. It’s baffling, and I expect a lot more from Brendan given his obvious eye and knowledge for the game. He’s almost breaking his own rules.

But as is so often the case I digress. There is so much more to football than a functional or dysfunctional system. It could be conceived as unfair to criticise Gerrard in particularly given the issues we have revolve around with how Brendan is setting us up to play at the moment, we have to look at our long standing captain as a focal point. He plays even when he isn’t playing well, he plays most competitions, he usually plays the full 90, he doesn’t suit the way we should be playing, and he is playing badly.

But it’s challenging, in fact impossible, to get irritated at Gerrard for his misgivings currently. He is a notorious slow starter, even in his pomp when he was one of the best in Europe, it always took Gerrard a couple of months to get out of the blocks. Couple this with Brendan’s philosophy to condition players to peak physically around New Year, and I think even if we were playing well, people would be once again questioning Gerrard’s inclusion. Hell, even if we were playing like this but picking up points regularly, it would be over looked until Stevie comes good again and ‘defies the doubters’, proving the haters wrong. This is true, but not necessarily right.

I feel for Steven. My heart aches for the man right now. History repeats itself but it gets all the crueller. Those of us with any sense will never look at Gerrard and think ‘you lost the title’. There were plenty of other opportunities to pick up points that we missed long before Chelsea closed ranks at Anfield. But you can bet your bottomest of dollars, that every time Stevie glimpses himself in a mirror, he will think that very quote. It’s human nature. Alex, Brendan, Stevie’s parents and everybody else involved significantly in his life will tell him this is not the case lad, but he will think it is. He never shirks responsibility, and he will feel responsible.

But this is only one of the latest tales of woe. Of course we have had this before where Gerrard has given everything and been left with nothing. After United pipped us to the title in 2009, Gerrard looked exhausted, the player the team was built around as Gerrard had adapted to playing with, left the club for the bright white shirts of Real. The season after two of the other key players jumped ship in Mascherano and Torres for the Spanish sun and London; Gerrard was left again, as the one world class player in a rebuilding operation starting pretty much from scratch after the club went through its most horrendous financial crisis in decades.

The previous rebuild had occurred after the departure of another star forward who allowed Gerrard to play his game, when his boyhood pal Michael Owen left for a measly fee back in 2004. It had been a couple of seasons since we were last in with a shot and narrowly missed out, and there was a Rafalution on the horizon to be embarked upon, but this was the first sign for Gerrard that the team mates he built a game and relationship with would eventually flee for foreign lands and leave Gerrard every single time as the juggernaut surrounded by foot soldiers.  Gerrard has had this time and time again and having lost out on the title by a whisker in part due to a monumental error on his part, and arguably the best player he has ever played with flying the nest, again. He enters his 35th year still devoid of a league winner’s medal, and can surely feel the walls closing in.

There’s no reason either why he would forget the world cup in too much of a hurry, as much as he’d like to. He led a squad to footballs heart in Brazil with young, exciting talents around him, some of whom he had played with at International level for years, and several who had been part of an epic title challenge with him over the last 9 months. He must have felt there was a chance of competing. Even with Roy in charge I would argue with all the pundits and Roy and say that is one of the most exciting England squads to ever fly off shore. The nation may not have expected, but I suspect Gerrard might have.

You’d think that lightening couldn’t strike twice. Any England collapse that may have occurred couldn’t be pinned on Gerrard as simply as the title crumble had. However it did, and as Gerrard mis-timed his jump, the ball flicking off his head into the path of his soon to depart deadly striker at club level, Gerrard watched helplessly as Luis did exactly what Gerrard had seen so many times previously and fired accurately into the net, dashing any hopes England had of climbing out the group stage. Again, Gerrard will be playing that phase of play over and over again in his head. If only he had jumped a split second early, if only he hadn’t jumped at all, the timeline and events that ensued may have deviated massively. It’s crucifying, psychologically.

He needs a break. It’s been his most testing 6 months in football that he’s ever had emotionally. To be so close and to lose it all on the tred of the turf will be tearing him up inside as he sees any chance of a title medal slowly dissipate further and further away to a land he hasn’t got the legs left to make. The man is human, as we sometimes seem to forget, and we can all relate to huge pressures, build ups, and disappointments in all walks of life that significantly halt us from moving forward. Our brains do not let us just ‘forget’ traumatic events. There is not a day that will pass where Gerrard does not revisit his slip and he is likely petrified he will never have a day without a memory of it if he fails to clasp his hands round the Premier League trophy before he hangs ‘em up. He will torment himself, as so many of us do.

He needs a rest. Not just physically but mentally. The pressure he is under at the moment is ridiculous and now his long lasting supporters of such a truly great, legendary footballer are beginning to turn on him as he grasps onto a hope that he can make things right. It’s probably too late for him to make things right by being on the pitch regularly. Liverpool need to move forward and so does Stevie. He needs to realise that he still has a wealth of quality to offer this team if he is managed in the right way, played at the appropriate times, and that the team is now to be built around the likes of Raheem, Phil and Sturridge to move forward. Gerrard must pass the responsibility on to these lads and play a more supportive role. His experience around the dressing room, knowledge of the game and games where his technical ability can shine without his physical ability causing us more problems should now be his focus. It might be difficult for him, like accepting your spouse leaving you, but you have to do it for everybody to move on.

The responsibility truly lies with Rodgers. Brendan must have seen the change in Gerrard’s perspective, the damage last season and summer have done to a man who has suffered this fate so many times before and now finds himself in a position where he can’t wrestle things back as his legs slow. Its clear Gerrard is massively distracted as well as suffering from the natural hindrances age brings to a previously such explosive player. His contract being up in the air is something else that will be drawing Gerrard’s attention away from the pitch and that needs to be tied up as soon as possible. Give him an extension, but reduce his expectancy on playing time. I don’t think money has too much to do with it.

Rodgers needs to allow some space for Gerrard to pull his head back together, some time away from the limelight. He needs to be brave and take the flack he may get from the media manager and prove that he knows best. Gerrard is having a really tough time physically and emotionally and it is costing the team, it is costing Gerrard his longevity, and it’s costing Rodgers his reputation. It would best for all parties to give Gerrard a bit of a rest, let the experienced pro that is Lucas Levia come in and add some stability with his positional sense and knowledge of the position. His qualities suit us more than Gerrard’s right now and he hasn’t got his head in a mess over a title slip and disastrous world cup. Let him go and play, let Gerrard g and rest his mind.

It’s vital that Rodgers does this soon, in my opinion. Gerrard is of course a symbolic figure and leader at the club, but if he had any other name and had put in these performances he has this season he’d have been dropped a long time ago. Good performances need rewards, and poor ones need punishing. Right now the lack of faith Rodgers is showing other players and the lack of meritocracy in the team selections is a poor example to young players and potential recruits. Rodgers needs to be brave for him, Gerrard, and most importantly Liverpool Football Club, if they make the right decisions, neither Gerrard nor Rodgers will ever have to walk alone.
ive  read a lot of posts in my time here but that has got to be the best written,thought provoking post ive ever seen in this or any other medium be it newspapers or whatever,its breathtaking in its simplicity and unbelievably well written...u have put any of my ramblings to shame with that ....unreal,well done.

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Re: Gerrard - quoted as 'Gerrard open to move from Liverpool'
« Reply #1351 on: November 12, 2014, 12:28:49 am »
When i say bypassed I mean left trailing in the wake of opponents because of his lack of speed. I don't like all these stats as they don't always show the true picture and don't need them when my eyes tell can me the truth.

The benefit of objectifying and quantifying this stuff is that then one can compare players. Otherwise, if one finds a video of even Mascherano being "left trailing in the wake of opponents" then one can (illegitimately) conclude that Mascherano also gets "bypassed". I understand what you mean, by the way.
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Re: Gerrard - quoted as 'Gerrard open to move from Liverpool'
« Reply #1352 on: November 12, 2014, 12:40:17 am »
Who knows with Lucas, we've seen that little of him in his best position over the last 12 months it's hard to tell whether he's anywhere near the level he'd reached pre injury.

What i will say is that Lucas at even 50% of the level he was at is still a better option as a DM than Stevie, of course if Brendan is sticking to his guns re playing more of a QB then there's no contest, Stevie gets the nod every time but why persist with such a role when your lacking two key ingredients to make it work.

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Re: Gerrard - quoted as 'Gerrard open to move from Liverpool'
« Reply #1353 on: November 12, 2014, 12:53:49 am »
Great post by Daws; I don't think anyone could have summarised the situation better.

I think this season Stevie Gerrard is in the same position that Bryan Robson was in for ManU in 1992.  Robson had been Utd's best player and talisman for a decade, but he'd just seen his side blow their best chance of the title in 25 years and at 34 he wasn't likely to get many more chances.

Ferguson took the decision to bench Robson for the following season and use him sparingly.  McClair was never anywhere near the player Robson was at this peak, but he did a job for them alongside Ince.  We all know what happened next.

If we start to use Stevie intelligently, coming on as an impact player with 30 mins to go, rather than continuing with this bizarre fantasy that a man rapidly approaching his 35th year can play 270 mins of top flight football a week, we just might be rewarded for it.

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Re: Gerrard - quoted as 'Gerrard open to move from Liverpool'
« Reply #1354 on: November 12, 2014, 01:23:32 am »
Daws that was without question the best post I have seen in quite a while and sums up my thoughts perfectly

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Re: Gerrard - quoted as 'Gerrard open to move from Liverpool'
« Reply #1355 on: November 12, 2014, 03:13:39 am »
It was around this time last year that I wrote at length about our skipper.

The general gist was that of expectation. That his body was slowly in decline. That although his anaerobic fitness (the ability to perform multiple sprints with short recovery time) would gradually fall off a cliff,  he still had something significant to offer the squad and his technical qualities would find their place in our system. I was quite harsh on Gerrard (bar the romanticism in his exploits and miracles he had pulled off for the club in the past) but my point was a fairly clear one; Stevie was becoming very much a luxury player in regards to what he could offer and produce in any given game. His playing time had to be managed over the next 12 months; that was an expectancy on my part and Gerrard continued into the second half of the season expressing his superb vision and ability to be a key player at the highest level with several swashbuckling performances in his new quarterback role.

Twelve months later (maybe a tad more) this expectation hasn’t been met. Gerrard has still played a significantly numerous amount of minutes for club and country, being used heavily, and where once the way we played suited Gerrard with space being created for him by two forwards always looking to get in behind the defence with superb 1v1 qualities, pushing defenders back, giving Stevie the time and space receive the pass, get his head up, with multiple targets to aim for long and short, things have evolved (or devolved) since then.

But I’m not really here to discuss the tactical issues Gerrard has had with the loss of Suarez (and Sturridge thus far) as this is already something which is being discussed and covered pretty coherently by others and seems fairly obvious. Without a significant goal and pace threat to push teams back, teams are pinning us in more, we’re stuck deeper, Gerrard isn’t being given the time and space he needs as his nervous system slows down and he needs that extra split second to adjust his body shape and the ball to pull off each pass. The quicker he is pressed, the more trouble he is in, rendering his game almost inoperable when man marked (and this has always been a weakness of his no matter what year or position he is in).

It’s a pretty fundamental flaw in Gerrard’s inclusion at the moment. We simply cannot get the best out of him with the systems current set up. Without those runners, without that time and space on the ball, and Gerrard’s weaknesses – his positional sense, his inability to turn quickly and his lack of acceleration, are being ruthlessly exploited with little to nothing gained. A lob sided back four does him no favours, and the way they drop off after he has been beaten often hinders his ability to recover a situation as nobody is slowing the opposition up substantially.

But as I aforementioned, this is not really my gripe, for want of a better word, for Gerrard’s constant inclusion. I have always enjoyed writing and discussing at length systems, spaces, shape etc, and as a whole I think Brendan is making a major error in persisting with players he ‘trusts’ rather than players who would suit how we are playing at the moment and have done since Suarez’ departure. It’s arguable that Mignolet, Johnson, Skrtel, Gerrard and all our strikers bar Sturridge are not in tandem with how Brendan sold us his vision and how we played last year. Yet they are ‘trusted’ and played pretty religiously. It’s baffling, and I expect a lot more from Brendan given his obvious eye and knowledge for the game. He’s almost breaking his own rules.

But as is so often the case I digress. There is so much more to football than a functional or dysfunctional system. It could be conceived as unfair to criticise Gerrard in particularly given the issues we have revolve around with how Brendan is setting us up to play at the moment, we have to look at our long standing captain as a focal point. He plays even when he isn’t playing well, he plays most competitions, he usually plays the full 90, he doesn’t suit the way we should be playing, and he is playing badly.

But it’s challenging, in fact impossible, to get irritated at Gerrard for his misgivings currently. He is a notorious slow starter, even in his pomp when he was one of the best in Europe, it always took Gerrard a couple of months to get out of the blocks. Couple this with Brendan’s philosophy to condition players to peak physically around New Year, and I think even if we were playing well, people would be once again questioning Gerrard’s inclusion. Hell, even if we were playing like this but picking up points regularly, it would be over looked until Stevie comes good again and ‘defies the doubters’, proving the haters wrong. This is true, but not necessarily right.

I feel for Steven. My heart aches for the man right now. History repeats itself but it gets all the crueller. Those of us with any sense will never look at Gerrard and think ‘you lost the title’. There were plenty of other opportunities to pick up points that we missed long before Chelsea closed ranks at Anfield. But you can bet your bottomest of dollars, that every time Stevie glimpses himself in a mirror, he will think that very quote. It’s human nature. Alex, Brendan, Stevie’s parents and everybody else involved significantly in his life will tell him this is not the case lad, but he will think it is. He never shirks responsibility, and he will feel responsible.

But this is only one of the latest tales of woe. Of course we have had this before where Gerrard has given everything and been left with nothing. After United pipped us to the title in 2009, Gerrard looked exhausted, the player the team was built around as Gerrard had adapted to playing with, left the club for the bright white shirts of Real. The season after two of the other key players jumped ship in Mascherano and Torres for the Spanish sun and London; Gerrard was left again, as the one world class player in a rebuilding operation starting pretty much from scratch after the club went through its most horrendous financial crisis in decades.

The previous rebuild had occurred after the departure of another star forward who allowed Gerrard to play his game, when his boyhood pal Michael Owen left for a measly fee back in 2004. It had been a couple of seasons since we were last in with a shot and narrowly missed out, and there was a Rafalution on the horizon to be embarked upon, but this was the first sign for Gerrard that the team mates he built a game and relationship with would eventually flee for foreign lands and leave Gerrard every single time as the juggernaut surrounded by foot soldiers.  Gerrard has had this time and time again and having lost out on the title by a whisker in part due to a monumental error on his part, and arguably the best player he has ever played with flying the nest, again. He enters his 35th year still devoid of a league winner’s medal, and can surely feel the walls closing in.

There’s no reason either why he would forget the world cup in too much of a hurry, as much as he’d like to. He led a squad to footballs heart in Brazil with young, exciting talents around him, some of whom he had played with at International level for years, and several who had been part of an epic title challenge with him over the last 9 months. He must have felt there was a chance of competing. Even with Roy in charge I would argue with all the pundits and Roy and say that is one of the most exciting England squads to ever fly off shore. The nation may not have expected, but I suspect Gerrard might have.

You’d think that lightening couldn’t strike twice. Any England collapse that may have occurred couldn’t be pinned on Gerrard as simply as the title crumble had. However it did, and as Gerrard mis-timed his jump, the ball flicking off his head into the path of his soon to depart deadly striker at club level, Gerrard watched helplessly as Luis did exactly what Gerrard had seen so many times previously and fired accurately into the net, dashing any hopes England had of climbing out the group stage. Again, Gerrard will be playing that phase of play over and over again in his head. If only he had jumped a split second early, if only he hadn’t jumped at all, the timeline and events that ensued may have deviated massively. It’s crucifying, psychologically.

He needs a break. It’s been his most testing 6 months in football that he’s ever had emotionally. To be so close and to lose it all on the tred of the turf will be tearing him up inside as he sees any chance of a title medal slowly dissipate further and further away to a land he hasn’t got the legs left to make. The man is human, as we sometimes seem to forget, and we can all relate to huge pressures, build ups, and disappointments in all walks of life that significantly halt us from moving forward. Our brains do not let us just ‘forget’ traumatic events. There is not a day that will pass where Gerrard does not revisit his slip and he is likely petrified he will never have a day without a memory of it if he fails to clasp his hands round the Premier League trophy before he hangs ‘em up. He will torment himself, as so many of us do.

He needs a rest. Not just physically but mentally. The pressure he is under at the moment is ridiculous and now his long lasting supporters of such a truly great, legendary footballer are beginning to turn on him as he grasps onto a hope that he can make things right. It’s probably too late for him to make things right by being on the pitch regularly. Liverpool need to move forward and so does Stevie. He needs to realise that he still has a wealth of quality to offer this team if he is managed in the right way, played at the appropriate times, and that the team is now to be built around the likes of Raheem, Phil and Sturridge to move forward. Gerrard must pass the responsibility on to these lads and play a more supportive role. His experience around the dressing room, knowledge of the game and games where his technical ability can shine without his physical ability causing us more problems should now be his focus. It might be difficult for him, like accepting your spouse leaving you, but you have to do it for everybody to move on.

The responsibility truly lies with Rodgers. Brendan must have seen the change in Gerrard’s perspective, the damage last season and summer have done to a man who has suffered this fate so many times before and now finds himself in a position where he can’t wrestle things back as his legs slow. Its clear Gerrard is massively distracted as well as suffering from the natural hindrances age brings to a previously such explosive player. His contract being up in the air is something else that will be drawing Gerrard’s attention away from the pitch and that needs to be tied up as soon as possible. Give him an extension, but reduce his expectancy on playing time. I don’t think money has too much to do with it.

Rodgers needs to allow some space for Gerrard to pull his head back together, some time away from the limelight. He needs to be brave and take the flack he may get from the media manager and prove that he knows best. Gerrard is having a really tough time physically and emotionally and it is costing the team, it is costing Gerrard his longevity, and it’s costing Rodgers his reputation. It would best for all parties to give Gerrard a bit of a rest, let the experienced pro that is Lucas Levia come in and add some stability with his positional sense and knowledge of the position. His qualities suit us more than Gerrard’s right now and he hasn’t got his head in a mess over a title slip and disastrous world cup. Let him go and play, let Gerrard g and rest his mind.

It’s vital that Rodgers does this soon, in my opinion. Gerrard is of course a symbolic figure and leader at the club, but if he had any other name and had put in these performances he has this season he’d have been dropped a long time ago. Good performances need rewards, and poor ones need punishing. Right now the lack of faith Rodgers is showing other players and the lack of meritocracy in the team selections is a poor example to young players and potential recruits. Rodgers needs to be brave for him, Gerrard, and most importantly Liverpool Football Club, if they make the right decisions, neither Gerrard nor Rodgers will ever have to walk alone.


This needs to be reported to the moderators. It's too true and logical to be posted here...

Wonderful read mate and made me feel a little better about my week!!
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Re: Gerrard - quoted as 'Gerrard open to move from Liverpool'
« Reply #1356 on: November 12, 2014, 03:15:14 am »
This needs to be reported to the moderators. It's too true and logical to be posted here...

Wonderful read mate and made me feel a little better about my week!!
This thread needs reporting - it's an individual player thread.
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Re: Gerrard - quoted as 'Gerrard open to move from Liverpool'
« Reply #1357 on: November 12, 2014, 04:36:44 am »
I think it's important not to get too involved in this Gerrard debate although I do concede it needs to be had. The point being is that Gerrard is not the main issue right now. It's at a stage where he's becoming the ultimate scapegoat and people are going to fall into a trap into thinking that if and when he's rested or dropped that everything will be all rosy again. The issue surrounding Gerrard and his excessive minutes does need to be had as I said but in matter of importance I would put it maybe third or fourth. There are bigger issues within the team and how we are playing and I believe they need to be addressed first.

First of all Brendan doesn't seem to know his best team. Players are not being played on merit, expensive and seemingly exciting buys are not being played at all and our best performing players are either being left out or taken off early. What happens here is that not only is Brendan confused, that confusion transfers to the players. They become jittery, it affects performance, confidence and overall play. We had a squad of players go to Real Madrid and perform extremely well only for the better performing ones not to play against Chelsea. It also then turns into complacency as the players who are constantly played don't need to play to their absolute best because they will more than likely keep their place anyway. I'm not saying their attitude is deliberately complacent but subconsciously it will be.

Secondly you've got severe issues with confidence and pressure. There is a comorbidity between the two and it's something that is so dramatically different from last season. Balotelli, Lambert, Johnson, Lovren, Gerrard, Henderson. Those 6 players come to mind and they are especially void of any self-belief at the moment. Others are too, but those 6. Balotelli can't buy a goal, he knows the pressure is on him with Sturridge out. We are playing poorly and he is getting no service so he is trying to do too much. Lovren is a £20 million pound marquee signing for the future of our defence and he's suffering from David Luiz syndrome that Gary Neville once referred to: he's trying to be every kind of player at once, rash tackles, rushing to the ball, expansive but inaccurate passing. I won't repeat in full the Playstation analogy but you'll know it. Henderson is a shadow of the player Rodgers has developed and he's petrified to make penetrating runs or do something constructive. You get the picture. Players are shot mentally right now - I am not slagging them off or using this as a platform to spout bile but it is just how I see things at the moment.

You've then got the long standing issue of our defence. This is nothing new, this is not specifically down to Gerrard (although partly you could argue) but when you lose a player like Suarez then temporarily Sturridge then the defence instantly knows it's under even more pressure. If the defence looked a shambles last season when it had the comfort of being bailed out time after time imagine just how bad it will be now.  We cannot ignore this issue any longer, I genuinely believe that even with a top class 'DM' in front of our back 5 then it would not make that much of a difference. If you subscribe to that same view, and I'm not sure many well, then the omission or inclusion of Gerrard isn't really that big of a deal.

It is not Gerrard's fault that we cannot defend a set play. It is not Gerrard's fault that other players do not track runners or are miles out of position. It is not Gerrard's fault that our players look exhausted after 60 minutes. If you look at a lot of our goals that we've conceded this season they come from the aforementioned situations. With that, what difference will Lucas or Allen make? Also it is not Gerrard's fault that any mistake is amplified because we cannot get the round leather thing into the back of the net. He may be culpable for some things, in fact there is no may about it, but putting Lucas into his position is not going to stop too many of them.

Gerrard is not blameless by any means but I do believe people are going over the top with him. The difficulty going forward is whether Rodgers sees this 'quarterback' system one he wants regardless of who plays there or it is one he specifically crafted to include Gerrard and extend his Liverpool career. If it is the first one then I'm not too worried as long as his minutes are managed much better because he can slot in when he does play and there will be minimal or no disruption (probably improvement because he'll be fresh). But if it's something that Rodgers tailored for Gerrard then we've got massive problems. We will not be able to move forward as a team if we will be continually changing the system to accommodate him. That would be stupid at best.

Questions, questions, questions. Only Rodgers and his staff have the answers. Gerrard is the greatest player I have ever seen pull on a red shirt and for me he's one of the greatest footballers this country has ever produced. But the world doesn't run on sentimentality, if it did we would be league champions right now. Rodgers has other issues to address before the Gerrard one but it's something he's going to have to do this season. I am hopeful that he'll make the right decision.


« Last Edit: November 12, 2014, 04:38:45 am by Fiasco »

Offline irish musicman

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Re: Gerrard - quoted as 'Gerrard open to move from Liverpool'
« Reply #1358 on: November 12, 2014, 05:13:27 am »
^^^^^
Whilst I agree with most of what you have said I believe that the Gerrard issue is the most important one that needs sorting out. not necessarily because he is playing so badly (as are the team), but because it affects every member of our squad. If for whatever reason Brendan finds it impossible to drop or sub Stevie and other players know this then that's not good for the moral in the dressing room. If people higher up in the club are looking at it and seeing the same problems being repeated(and there are a few up there that know a thing or two about football) they should be asking questions. Brendan Rodgers needs to stamp HIS authority on the club and his first step in doing that should be to manage Stevie, if he can do that then he may go on to become a Liverpool great, if he can't he may well go the same route as the great Roy.

Offline RedBeast

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Re: Gerrard - quoted as 'Gerrard open to move from Liverpool'
« Reply #1359 on: November 12, 2014, 06:39:13 am »

I agree entirely that Gerrard is not our only problem at the moment. I would even go as far as agreeing that he is not in the top 4 or 5 of underperforming players. However, I do think he is the biggest issue we have at the moment. Now, this may not seem to be a logical sequence of thoughts, but there is some method to my madness.

The introduction of Gerrard to the base of midfield last season, solidified a major shift in approach and setup to the entire team. Let me be clear, I am in no way criticizing the move as it nearly won us the title. However, Rodgers understood that teams were setting up to compress space to nullify our short passing game. His introduction of Gerrard essentially took off the top of the opposition defence. As a direct result of that change, we went from a high possession short passing team, to a significantly lower possession team playing very directly. Even our back line started playing deeper to invite additional space to counter.

It seems crazy that moving one player could create such a change but Gerrard has a unique and rare skill set. Not many players have his ability to pass the ball long. Unfortunately, at this stage in his career, he also has deficiencies which must be compensated for.

The problem we have now, is related to the development and progress of the team. Rodgers came in with a blue print for success. I for one was prepared to be patient because, as we know, developing a football philosophy cannot be implemented overnight. This is particularly true of the Barcelona type of style that Rodgers was looking to introduce. Barcelona could only truly implement that style using players that had been trained in those methods since the start of their footballing days. Even a player like Fabregas, who grew up playing that style, was viewed as tainted by his English experience.

What we are left with, is a style of play that is dependant on a 36 year old player. You could justify continuing if, as with last year, the short term rewards are worth the long term delay in development. However, at this time, it is not working. The difficulty I have, is that I can't see the long term strategy and that makes me nervous. It is entirely possible, of course, that Rodgers has a plan in mind. But for all of our league games this season, Gerrard has been the few players to play every game. To me, this means that Rodgers sees him as a crucial component to the team. Again, this makes me very nervous.

One of the things that struck me about Rodgers in his first two seasons with us, is that he seemed to be a problem solver. He made little and large  changes here or there which often worked or sometimes didn't. But, there always looked to be a plan to improve. I have not seen that this season. In fact, there seems to be more of an approach that it will simply click into place. Yet, the performances do not seem to indicate that.

I still have faith in Rodgers. I just hope we don't sink any lower before we see progress.