Author Topic: Roberto Firmino  (Read 2013373 times)

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11120 on: July 22, 2020, 09:31:09 pm »
Get in Bobbo

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11121 on: July 22, 2020, 09:31:47 pm »
BOBBY!!!!
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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11122 on: July 22, 2020, 09:34:49 pm »
Could have 3 if Salah had been more aware.

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11123 on: July 22, 2020, 10:58:12 pm »
Of course hes wearing red tinted glasses. Of course.
Anyone else being strangely drawn to Dion Dublin's nipples?

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11124 on: July 22, 2020, 11:30:14 pm »
Of course hes wearing red tinted glasses. Of course.

ha ha - great stuff  8)

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11125 on: July 22, 2020, 11:48:29 pm »
I just knew he’d score tonight. What a cross by TAA.
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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11126 on: July 22, 2020, 11:49:39 pm »
His season starts now  ;D

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11127 on: July 22, 2020, 11:56:10 pm »
He gets 20 goals next season.

Great for him to get the goal he deserved tonight. Even though it's a short summer, he still gets the first summer break he's had for years and the extra 1% or so he's maybe lacked at times this year will be back.

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11128 on: July 23, 2020, 12:07:17 am »
Saved that goal especially for Tyler

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11129 on: July 23, 2020, 12:33:54 am »
Saved that goal especially for Tyler
I'm with Tyler on this one. Firmino may have just earned a chance to save his place in the team for the next game with the goal, but if he doesn't score a brace on Sunday, I'd bin him for the rest of the season. That'll teach him a lesson.
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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11130 on: July 23, 2020, 12:50:02 am »
As I posted - he’ll revert to the mean next season and people will post endless nonsense about him ‘getting his confidence back’

xG works not because someone thinks it’s a good idea but because it’s correlative and predictive over time.
It’s not a perfect correlation and it can be (and is being) improved...   but over time players taking shots achieve the same results from the same positions. A few players can over achieve their xG or under achieve it .. but the margins over time are narrow

Therefore if we see a player like Firmino whose hit is xG more or less over his career having a freak spell of not finishing we can be pretty sure as night follows day that he’ll revert to the mean

The idea of confidence in finishing is one of the most over blown in football.
Maybe it can affect how many shots a player takes (Firmino is actually taking slightly more than last year) but the idea that a professional players mental state is the governing factor in the direction and velocity a ball takes off their boot in the micro seconds of time it takes to kick a ball is pretty fanciful

It’s one of those belief systems that’s simultaneously both not provable of disprovable.
xG is provable / disprovable / critiqueable by test - confidence levels are entirely supposition 

xG is based on the result of confident and unconfident players shooting.

If confidence has no influence on a player's conversion rate then please explain why strikers go on extreme scoring runs and extreme scoring droughts. If you have scored a few goals then your reactions become instinctive. When you have missed a few you start snatching at chances. 
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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11131 on: July 23, 2020, 06:29:26 am »
xG is based on the result of confident and unconfident players shooting.

If confidence has no influence on a player's conversion rate then please explain why strikers go on extreme scoring runs and extreme scoring droughts. If you have scored a few goals then your reactions become instinctive. When you have missed a few you start snatching at chances.
This is what people keep saying. I'd like to see it evidenced.

Happenstance is not evidence. It's as likely that mad scoring runs and long droughts are also anomalies, controlled more by all those minute and often non-discernible factors which, combined, we call good fortune or bad fortune or luck, than anything on the part of the player. After all, a goal drought begins right after a goal scored, and a mad scoring run begins right after a non scoring period. What changes? If it's confidence, why does it dip or rise?

I get that watching football is made up of a tapestry of narratives. Not sure how many of those narratives stand up to scrutiny, though.
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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11132 on: July 23, 2020, 06:41:27 am »
I think the above is true. I was a forward and once you bag one you feel invincible. Confidence and mind set is massive in sport
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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11133 on: July 23, 2020, 12:35:55 pm »


 8)
« Last Edit: July 23, 2020, 12:38:04 pm by oojason »
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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11134 on: July 23, 2020, 12:38:01 pm »
How boss did he look when he came up the steps to get his medal? Flamboyant Firmino.

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11135 on: July 23, 2020, 11:46:50 pm »
https://www.instagram.com/p/CC_8Zl9Fi-m/?igshid=iuyfye19vr4r

Good photo this. If someone more techno can embed it please do
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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11136 on: July 24, 2020, 12:26:55 am »


Three absolute hotties there

(I like the one with the big ears the best)

« Last Edit: July 24, 2020, 12:30:11 am by Ghost Town »
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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11137 on: July 24, 2020, 12:40:10 am »
What's Alisson doing by that European Super Cup?

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11138 on: July 24, 2020, 12:43:42 am »
What's Alisson doing by that European Super Cup?

Great foot positioning that.
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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11139 on: July 24, 2020, 12:59:00 am »
Its funny how all 3 of their wives are identical in height :D

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11140 on: July 24, 2020, 01:06:25 am »
This is what people keep saying. I'd like to see it evidenced.

Happenstance is not evidence. It's as likely that mad scoring runs and long droughts are also anomalies, controlled more by all those minute and often non-discernible factors which, combined, we call good fortune or bad fortune or luck, than anything on the part of the player. After all, a goal drought begins right after a goal scored, and a mad scoring run begins right after a non scoring period. What changes? If it's confidence, why does it dip or rise?

I get that watching football is made up of a tapestry of narratives. Not sure how many of those narratives stand up to scrutiny, though.

This is a great and really well put post. As humans we are biologically tuned to unconsciously search for patterns - it’s very difficult to ascertain within football to what degree our observations support our formed narratives

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11141 on: July 24, 2020, 01:43:04 am »
Its funny how all 3 of their wives are identical in height :D
Love how Bobby is standing on tiptoe so he can share the same airspace as the other lads :)
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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11142 on: July 24, 2020, 01:45:17 am »
This is a great and really well put post. As humans we are biologically tuned to unconsciously search for patterns - it’s very difficult to ascertain within football to what degree our observations support our formed narratives
Exactly. Someone once described the human brain as a ''pattern recognition engine'' and showed how because we are programmed to spot and benefit from patterns, we often see them when they aren't there.
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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11143 on: July 25, 2020, 06:37:32 pm »
This is what people keep saying. I'd like to see it evidenced.

Happenstance is not evidence. It's as likely that mad scoring runs and long droughts are also anomalies, controlled more by all those minute and often non-discernible factors which, combined, we call good fortune or bad fortune or luck, than anything on the part of the player. After all, a goal drought begins right after a goal scored, and a mad scoring run begins right after a non scoring period. What changes? If it's confidence, why does it dip or rise?

I get that watching football is made up of a tapestry of narratives. Not sure how many of those narratives stand up to scrutiny, though.

The effect on performance caused by a dip in confidence has been researched and evidenced. It is called cognitive anxiety. The biggest effect is on male high level athletes.

As for confidence usually the more you score the more your confidence grows which means you are more likely to take chances. The opposite happens during a drought, how often do you see a player who is not scoring take an extra touch or pass instead of shooting. How often do you see unconfident players who stop making runs or not wanting the ball. Confidence is a well documented effect in high level sport, the finer the margins the more important confidence is.
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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11144 on: July 25, 2020, 07:04:30 pm »
Quote
  The opposite happens during a drought, how often do you see a player who is not scoring take an extra touch or pass instead of shooting.   
The same amount you see it with a player who is on a scoring streak. However, I believe you are more likely to notice it if a player isn't scoring because it can just ne brushed off/forgotten if they go on to score.

Also is the suggestion here that Firmino had no confidence in himself scoring only when playing at home, and only when it was in the league?



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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11145 on: July 26, 2020, 12:07:38 am »
The effect on performance caused by a dip in confidence has been researched and evidenced. It is called cognitive anxiety. The biggest effect is on male high level athletes.

As for confidence usually the more you score the more your confidence grows which means you are more likely to take chances. The opposite happens during a drought, how often do you see a player who is not scoring take an extra touch or pass instead of shooting. How often do you see unconfident players who stop making runs or not wanting the ball. Confidence is a well documented effect in high level sport, the finer the margins the more important confidence is.
No, sorry. That's just wikipedia waffle. I'm talking about evidence of actual named individuals; real life instances. Evidence that someone you claim is suffering in his goalscoring due to lack confidence, actually is suffering for that reason.

Merely claiming that someone in a goal drought is in that drought because ''he is low in confidence'' or ''he's snatching at chances'' or ''he is failing to score because he wants the golden boot'' or any other similar claims, is not enough. It might be that that is the reason in a given instance. Or it might just be bad luck or exhaustion, or injury or something else entirely.

My point was that we are quick to clothe everything we see on the football field with (often off-the-peg) narratives, but it's not clear how often those narratives really stand up to scrutiny in any given instance.
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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11146 on: July 26, 2020, 12:25:17 am »
No, sorry. That's just wikipedia waffle. I'm talking about evidence of actual named individuals; real life instances. Evidence that someone you claim is suffering in his goalscoring due to lack confidence, actually is suffering for that reason.

Merely claiming that someone in a goal drought is in that drought because ''he is low in confidence'' or ''he's snatching at chances'' or ''he is failing to score because he wants the golden boot'' or any other similar claims, is not enough. It might be that that is the reason in a given instance. Or it might just be bad luck or exhaustion, or injury or something else entirely.

My point was that we are quick to clothe everything we see on the football field with (often off-the-peg) narratives, but it's not clear how often those narratives really stand up to scrutiny in any given instance.


How about a scientific study.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0264041031000101809?journalCode=rjsp20

The relative impact of cognitive anxiety and self-confidence upon sport performance: a meta-analysis
TIM WOODMAN & LEW HARDY
Pages 443-457 | Published online: 07 Feb 2011

    Download citation https://doi.org/10.1080/0264041031000101809

Abstract

This meta-analysis (k = 48) investigated two relationships in competitive sport: (1) state cognitive anxiety with performance and (2) state self-confidence with performance. The cognitive anxiety mean effect size was r = −0.10 (P <0.05). The self-confidence mean effect size was r = 0.24 (P <0.001). A paired-samples t-test revealed that the magnitude of the self-confidence mean effect size was significantly greater than that of the cognitive anxiety mean effect size. The moderator variables for the cognitive anxiety-performance relationship were sex and standard of competition. The mean effect size for men (r = −0.22) was significantly greater than the mean effect size for women (r = −0.03). The mean effect size for high-standard competition (r = −0.27) was significantly greater than that for comparatively low-standard competition (r = −0.06). The significant moderator variables for the self-confidence-performance relationship were sex, standard of competition and measurement. The mean effect size for men (r = 0.29) was significantly greater than that for women (r = 0.04) and the mean effect size for high-standard competition (r = 0.33) was significantly greater than that for low-standard competition (r = 0.16). The mean effect size derived from studies employing the Competitive State Anxiety Inventory-2 (r = 0.19) was significantly smaller than the mean effect size derived from studies using other measures of self-confidence (r = 0.38). Measurement issues are discussed and future research directions are offered in light of the results.


Cognitive Anxiety and Performance on Team and Individual Sports Athletes

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-981-287-107-7_32

Abstract

Cognitive anxiety has the capability to threaten a person’s well-being because it can increase worries and doubt. Athletes will achieve the best performance when their levels of cognitive anxiety were low. The rationale for this study was designed to examine the levels of cognitive anxiety before and during competition between team and individual athletes. In addition, this paper had examined the relationship between cognitive anxiety and sports performance, during competition. Cognitive anxiety was measured using the “Competitive State Anxiety Inventory-2” (CSAI-2) and the “Sports Performance Scale” (SPS). The participants for this research were 121 individuals and 103 team sports athletes. The study was conducted during sports events between schools. The players completed the CSAI-2 twice: before and during the sports competition. The result showed that the cognitive anxiety was higher on team compared to individual sports athletes, before and during competitions. Besides that, the results also revealed the tendency of cognitive anxiety increases during competition on team compared to individual sports athletes. Furthermore, the result showed a negative correlation between cognitive anxiety and sports performance during competition on individuals and team sports. Sport psychologists, sport counselors, and coaches should use the present findings to recommend coping strategies to team and individual athletes that are appropriate for dealing with their athletes’ levels of cognitive anxiety.



Sport-related anxiety: current insights
Jessica L Ford, Kenneth Ildefonso, Megan L Jones, and Monna Arvinen-Barrow

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5667788/

Abstract

To date, much research has been devoted to understanding how anxiety can affect sport performance, both in practice and in competitive settings. It is well known that sport has the potential for high levels of stress and anxiety, and that practicing and employing a range of psychological strategies can be beneficial in anxiety management. Equally, growing evidence also suggests that anxiety can play a role in sport injury prevention, occurrence, rehabilitation, and the return to sport process. The purpose of this paper is to provide current insights into sport-related anxiety. More specifically, it will provide the reader with definitions and theoretical conceptualizations of sport-related anxiety. This will be followed by making a case for considering the term “performance” to be broader than activities associated with sport-related performance in practice and competition, by including performance activities associated with sport injury prevention, rehabilitation, and the return to sport process. The paper will then highlight the importance of recognizing early signs and symptoms of anxiety, and the potential need for referral. Finally, the conclusions will emphasize the need for appropriate, client-specific, and practitioner competent care for athletes experiencing sport-related anxiety.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2020, 12:29:31 am by Al 666 »
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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11147 on: July 26, 2020, 12:44:22 am »
Actual individual cases, Al.

Here's one for you: Roberto Firmino. The evidence, please?
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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11148 on: July 26, 2020, 12:59:33 am »
Actual individual cases, Al.

Here's one for you: Roberto Firmino. The evidence, please?

Why would you want individual cases when there are scientific studies that show that cognitive anxiety has an adverse effect on elite athletes. The whole point of scientific studies is to remove the influence of a single individual.
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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11149 on: July 26, 2020, 01:41:24 am »
Why would you want individual cases when there are scientific studies that show that cognitive anxiety has an adverse effect on elite athletes. The whole point of scientific studies is to remove the influence of a single individual.

Maybe because we don't give a damn about studies.

We only care about Firmino, Salah, Mane, Origi, and the rest of our squad.

What proof is there that you have?
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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11150 on: July 26, 2020, 01:51:26 am »
Why would you want individual cases when there are scientific studies that show that cognitive anxiety has an adverse effect on elite athletes. The whole point of scientific studies is to remove the influence of a single individual.
Because I'm not disputing that it can happen, I'm asking how we prove whether in any given instance it is happening. In particular when people claim that a player is ''snatching at chances'' due to anxiety or low confidence or (in Salah's case) because ''he wants the golden boot'', can those claims be evidenced in those specific instances? If so, how?

Or is it mostly the case that people are reaching for off-the-peg narratives that ''seem legit''?

I'm not trying to argue for the sake of it, I'm asking whether greater clarity is achievable for us as fans/viewers?
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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11151 on: July 26, 2020, 01:51:36 am »
Why would you want individual cases when there are scientific studies that show that cognitive anxiety has an adverse effect on elite athletes. The whole point of scientific studies is to remove the influence of a single individual.

Elite athletes?

Competitions between schools equates to professional sport, then?

And is an athlete who is anxious unconfident?

Or is one who is not anxious then confident?

You're blurring terms to suit your own all-encompassing viewpoint.
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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11152 on: July 26, 2020, 01:55:26 am »
Elite athletes?

Competitions between schools equates to professional sport, then?

And is an athlete who is anxious unconfident?

Or is one who is not anxious then confident?

You're blurring terms to suit your own all-encompassing viewpoint.
Ha! I hadn't even read the links as it wasn't germane to my point. So we're now extrapolating from the egg-and-spoon race? :)
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Offline 4pool

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11153 on: July 26, 2020, 01:55:47 am »
Pre-covid article:

Why Roberto Firmino's huge goal drought doesn't matter and proves he is ideal Liverpool striker

The Brazilian's lack of home goals are worrying some supporters, but the surprise stat is non reflection of his performances or his efficacy in Jürgen Klopp's Liverpool system.



29 games. Eight goals. Zero at home. It’s not the season one typically expects of a number nine for a Premier League title winning side.

Scoring has always been an issue for the perception of Roberto Firmino. ( Edit: Al 666) His first season at Anfield saw him net 10 in the league, enough to make him the club’s top scorer, though not exactly something to shout about. But this was fine as he was usually playing wide or in the number ten role that year. The real story was that Christian Benteke, the man Liverpool signed to be a Proper Number Nine™, couldn’t even break double figures.

The following year saw Jürgen Klopp really put his mark on the club’s style of football, and that meant a move for the Brazilian. In the new 4-3-3 system, Firmino was suddenly leading the line, flanked by Philippe Coutinho and Sadio Mané. He was there for two reasons. The first was his almost unique pressing ability from the striker role. Klopp wasn’t here when Firmino was bought, but he could not have asked for a better pressing forward than the one he inherited. The second is his link-up play. Firmino involves himself a lot in the build up. This allowed Mané and later Mohamed Salah to make movements into the box and score so many goals. That’s not there without Firmino in the false nine role.

How Jürgen Klopp altered Sadio Mané and Mohamed Salah's positions to reinvigorate Liverpool's attack
But it comes at a price. In 2016/17, Firmino scored 11 league goals. This would have been considered a very poor season for Daniel Sturridge, Luis Suárez, Fernando Torres, Michael Owen or Robbie Fowler. Indeed, plenty of Liverpool fans wanted to see the club sign an “out-and-out” striker in the vein of those names that summer. Klopp and sporting director Michael Edwards ignored them.

Instead, they signed someone who would actually score those goals in Salah. You remember very well that he scored 32 goals that year, a record over a 38-game season, but you’ve probably forgotten that Firmino bagged 15. It’s an improvement, and yet the striker still scored less than half as many as the right winger. Salah was down the next year with 22, but Firmino was still well short of him at 12.

And so we get to this season, with just eight so far, all away from Anfield. Does it really matter where the goals come? Not really. They all count the same. And it’s not something that really carries over season-to-season. Gini Wijnaldum couldn’t score away from home until he did. It’ll happen for Firmino at Anfield.

It’s not for lack of trying on the attacker’s part. Per Understat, Firmino has run up a total of 7.99 expected goals at Anfield this season, despite scoring none. Away from home, his xG is similar at 7.22, but he has found the net eight times. Either he woke up one morning and suddenly lost the ability to finish at Anfield but retained it everywhere else, or it’s just a strange coincidence that will even itself out over time.


Liverpool's pivotal Brazilian could have defining say vs Atletico Madrid, and it isn't Fabinho
Nobody is really questioning any other aspect of Firmino’s performances, and rightly so. Liverpool generally don’t use a natural playmaker in midfield, preferring more industrious options, and Firmino is a big part of that system. You can afford a lack of incisive passing from these players when your striker is dropping deep and providing it himself. When he does this, it in turn creates space for Salah and Mané to provide the goalscoring threat in behind that they do. Of course, his pressing is everything. Liverpool just can’t create the transition opportunities that exist without him. He’s the human embodiment of what Klopp wants his team to do on the pitch. Liverpool don’t exist without him.

It might agitate people when he doesn’t score so many goals. ( Edit: Al 666) It agitates me when he misses good chances. But it really doesn’t matter that much. There’s no one out there who could provide what he does better than Firmino.

https://www.liverpool.com/liverpool-fc-news/features/liverpool-roberto-firmino-news-goals-17891883
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Offline PoetryInMotion

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11154 on: July 26, 2020, 04:21:37 am »
For a 100th time, Bobby is not a 'striker' just because he plays through the middle. Salah is our striker, Mane is our Supporting Striker and Bobby is our Deep Lying Forward.

Did anyone really get bothered by Ronaldinho's or Bergkamp's scoring droughts? No. Precisely why nobody should for Bobby as well. In an ideal world.

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11155 on: July 26, 2020, 08:49:55 am »
There's a saying that goes something like "if you can't see what a "Bobby Firmino" brings to the team, you don't understand football".

It's been said of other players over the years, I just can't remember who they are or who said it but he has that intangible quality that makes everything work.

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Offline Clayton Bigsby

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11156 on: July 26, 2020, 09:39:24 am »
For a 100th time, Bobby is not a 'striker' just because he plays through the middle. Salah is our striker, Mane is our Supporting Striker and Bobby is our Deep Lying Forward.

Did anyone really get bothered by Ronaldinho's or Bergkamp's scoring droughts? No. Precisely why nobody should for Bobby as well. In an ideal world.

1) He has the third most shots in the league, so why he is certainly not a traditional  number 9, he is not a number 6 either. You can appreciate what he does and still want him to score more. They are not mutually exclusive.

2) He is an integral part of the team that is current world, European and English champions.

3) Had we beaten Burnley this thread would probably be on page 2. But once that unique record chance had gone, a scapegoat was sort
« Last Edit: July 26, 2020, 09:41:34 am by Clayton Bigsby »

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11157 on: July 26, 2020, 09:57:11 am »
It's been said of other players over the years, I just can't remember who they are or who said it but he has that intangible quality that makes everything work.

He's brilliant. For all the stats people can throw at him, I just get so much joy just from watching him play. We're lucky to have had some genuine top class forwards here but none can match Firmino's combination of skill/ability and selflessness which makes our team work. He's going to go down as an all time great :)
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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11158 on: July 26, 2020, 10:01:12 am »
He's brilliant. For all the stats people can throw at him, I just get so much joy just from watching him play. We're lucky to have had some genuine top class forwards here but none can match Firmino's combination of skill/ability and selflessness which makes our team work. He's going to go down as an all time great :)

He finds and passes the ball in such tight spaces you can't believe you eyes.

He set up Naby's run and goal with a delicate and accurate pass in a space the size of a broom closet.

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11159 on: July 26, 2020, 10:07:57 am »
When I see that Bobby is not on the team sheet, I know we will look like we don't know each other up front

He is our edge in attack
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