Author Topic: Lionel Messi  (Read 923502 times)

Offline Corkboy

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7280 on: April 26, 2017, 03:02:54 pm »
For a proud Argentine like Messi, yep, definitely, representing his country in the World Cup knock outs would be a lot more pressured than playing for his club in a league game against an opposition he's played dozens of times and has absolutely nothing to prove against them. I take it you don't know much about Argentine society and how much representing the country means to their footballers? The albiceleste shirt weighs heavy. Very heavy.

Yeah, ok. I'll leave you to your world where you alone understand Argentine society, and where Messi has absolutely nothing to prove against Real Madrid.

Offline Samie

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7281 on: April 26, 2017, 03:17:00 pm »
Yeah just posting this again.

Messi said he'd swap a few World Player of the Year trophies for a World Cup win. So there's that.  :P

Offline J_Kopite

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7282 on: April 26, 2017, 03:17:38 pm »
Yeah just posting this again.


That proves nothing.

Offline Samie

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7283 on: April 26, 2017, 03:18:21 pm »
That proves nothing.

Proves everything.  The man want's the big one.

Offline J_Kopite

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7284 on: April 26, 2017, 03:18:56 pm »
Of course he does, it doesn't mean he's not the best player ever though does it? ??? He can't help where he was born.

Offline Samie

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7285 on: April 26, 2017, 03:20:27 pm »
He's not the best player ever though in my opinion. He's not even the best player his countries produced.  :D

Offline Xabi Gerrard

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7286 on: April 26, 2017, 03:25:09 pm »
How patronizing.

Wasn't being patronising at all. It was a perfectly valid assumption to make based on his question.

Enjoy him while you can.

Absolutely, the guy's a genius.

Offline Corkboy

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7287 on: April 26, 2017, 03:38:47 pm »
Wasn't being patronising at all. It was a perfectly valid assumption to make based on his question.

That's ok. I assume you're ignorant about pretty much everything.

Offline Xxavi

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7288 on: April 26, 2017, 04:18:11 pm »
So one big issue I have when people massively overrate a summer tourney like World Cup is to the extent which they can go with this overrating. You had genuinely "OK but meh" teams winning World Cup tournaments compared to top club sides. You had Greece winning Euro. It's a short tournament where team cohesion and tactics is as important, if not more, as the quality of players. You have 6-7 games, you have a bunch of players who barely know each other (on the pitch), how fast can they bond and form a team?

If World Cup is so important, David Villa and Iniesta are better than Messi. But nobody would argue this point due to the stupidity of this statement. Yet, they are ready to pull out arguments along this line when arguing Pele or Maradona vs Messi. So if you are unwilling to use the same analogy today (which basically tells you that yes, you have been watching Messi and you know that he is better than Iniesta and that it is silly to argue otherwise), why do you think it is OK to use it for the Maradona vs Messi debate? Seriously, there is a logical fallacy there. That if taking a minnow, an underdog to the international glory is so important, then, Greece players (pick one) should be the best ever.

The impression you get reading on here is that you have legendary teams battling it out in world cups. Really? Half of those teams are fecking shite, even some of those that appear in 1/2 finals, wouldn't make it to a Champions league spot in a top league. Brazilians glorify their 2002 WC team, but let's be honest, it was a terrible, terrible tournament with South Korea and Turkey in 1/2 finals, and every top team looking garbage (the favorites Argentina included).

Ask yourself a question, do you rate Rivaldo, Ronaldinho, Kaka, Ronaldo, Gotze, Muller, Xavi, Iniesta etc. above Messi? If not, then stop using world cup as your only argument. If your argument begins and ends with world cup thing, then there is not much to it.

PS Finally, in case this is news to some, good squads can make horrible teams. Messi having to drop to his own half to pick up the ball is the reason why he hasn't scored much for Argentina in world cups. If could get the ball further up the pitch, he'd love to. And yes, that's why he depends on the likes of Higuain to score the fecking goals. Because he is deep down below picking up the ball, dribbling and passing it to Higauin to score.

Offline Xxavi

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7289 on: April 26, 2017, 04:23:39 pm »
Also, this taking the underdog to titles argument is beyond silly. I was hoping that it ended with Leicester's league title win. Yeah, in a team sports, a good team of average players can win a trophy. But that doesn't stop their players from being decidedly average. Had this Leicester success happened 30 years ago, in Maradona era, they would by a mythical, legendary team by now. It's great that we can daily observe that it is in fact a good team full of average players.

It turns out, what Maradona apparently did with Napoli can be replicated, and this time, Mahrez has done it in the era of global super teams, with no transfer restrictions. Does this now mean Mahrez>Maradona? Seriously, people overrate Maradona's achievements (and they are truly overrated at this point, because Maradona fans would argue that he was playing with 10 plumbers at Napoli and 10 farmers in the Argentina team he played).

Make up your mind, what is the core of your argument?

1. Maradona did it for Argentina. Yeah, Villa did it for Spain. So Villa>Messi?
2. Maradona won titles with Napoli. Mahrez and Kante did with Leicester. Mahrez>Messi and Maradona?

Offline child-in-time

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7290 on: April 26, 2017, 07:10:04 pm »
Are you comparing the level, overall quality and competitiveness of the Premier League of now to the Serie A of then? Because if you really do, there is no point in arguing with you and I will gladly pass on this utterly ridiculous bullshit.
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Offline Xabi Gerrard

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7291 on: April 26, 2017, 07:37:01 pm »

That would all be great if anyone was actually making the points you're arguing against. But they're not. No one's said the World Cup is the be all and end all. Some of us just think the title of 'Greatest of all Time' should be bestowed upon someone who's looked like the best player in the world at all levels - club and country. Messi's been so much more superior for club than Villa that it doesn't matter if Villa's had a slightly better World Cup than Messi, Villa's still far behind Messi overall. Gets more complicated though when Messi hasn't been superior at club level to someone like Maradona but has been far far inferior at international level.

And by the way, if World Cup's are as crap as you make out, no excuses for Messi playing well within himself then is there??


Offline rawcusk8

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7292 on: April 26, 2017, 07:48:20 pm »
He's at it again tonight. Just sublime, a joy to watch.
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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7293 on: April 26, 2017, 07:56:51 pm »
That would all be great if anyone was actually making the points you're arguing against. But they're not. No one's said the World Cup is the be all and end all. Some of us just think the title of 'Greatest of all Time' should be bestowed upon someone who's looked like the best player in the world at all levels - club and country. Messi's been so much more superior for club than Villa that it doesn't matter if Villa's had a slightly better World Cup than Messi, Villa's still far behind Messi overall. Gets more complicated though when Messi hasn't been superior at club level to someone like Maradona but has been far far inferior at international level.

And by the way, if World Cup's are as crap as you make out, no excuses for Messi playing well within himself then is there??
Hasn't Messi won best player at two of his last three International tournaments?

Offline Xabi Gerrard

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7294 on: April 26, 2017, 08:15:43 pm »
Hasn't Messi won best player at two of his last three International tournaments?

Ha! I wouldn't read too much into the 2014 award. Even the guy defending Messi a few posts above said it should have been James. Means about as much as the time Beckham came 2nd in the Ballon d'Or when he wasn't even in the top two midfielders at Man Utd. Meaningless awards.

What's the second tournament by the way? I saw Sanchez got it in the 2016 Copa and no one was named best player in 2015.

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7295 on: April 26, 2017, 09:18:27 pm »
Been reading this thread and I have nothing to add other than I hate it when people say "Fat Ronaldo" as if that's the best way to describe him.
Hate it too. That's why all spanish-speaking countries (and I assume portuguese too) refer to Cristiano Ronaldo as Cristiano: Ronaldo is reserved por THE Ronaldo.

Offline Broad Spectrum

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7296 on: April 26, 2017, 09:26:46 pm »
He's at it again tonight. Just sublime, a joy to watch.

I bet he wouldn't have been as sublime if he were wearing that heavy Argentina shirt though tonight.

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7297 on: April 26, 2017, 09:34:31 pm »
I bet he wouldn't have been as sublime if he were wearing that heavy Argentina shirt though tonight.
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Offline trimore

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7298 on: April 26, 2017, 09:36:33 pm »
That's a well written post mate but massively flawed.

- You're basically saying that international teams are too well organised for a forward to thrive these days, but I keep on reading on here about how much better CL teams are organised than World Cup teams, which I agree with. So if Messi can do it against the better organised CL teams, why isn't he doing it against the World Cup teams?

- You're over-egging it massively suggesting he ever has 5 men "permentantly glued to him" during world cup knockouts - he doesn't, not even close.

- You say "Knockout stage or difficult group games in June and July are too mentally exhaustive these days for ANY forward across the globe who scored regular club goals (18+) to take over and dominate every game." - I take it you missed Griezmann doing the business with this 5 knock out goals and all round brilliant performances last summer?


This is what I mentioned early about people doing crazy mental gymanstics to explain away Messi's massive drop in performance levels in the highest pressure games (WC knock outs). I take it you've seen him play for Barcelona, right? Time and time and time again he'll receive the ball in areas where it looks unlikely, even impossible, to score in. Yet he keeps on doing it, over and over again. He finds himself in those same situations for Argentina in knock outs too. But he just doesn't pull of the impossible in these situations like we know he can when he's playing against better organised opposition in lower pressure games for Barca. That isn't because of systems, that isn't because of Higuain, that isn't because Maradona was his manager for 2 of the 7 games, or whatever desperate excuse his biggest fans come up with.

Griezman against Ireland, Iceland, and an aging Germany playing at home? haha, give me a break. And what does he do against Switzerland and Portugal? Nothing that's what. I said teams with strong atheltic defenders, properly motivated. (Edit: And if any knockout games count, check the highlights for last year's Copa America quarter and semi-finals against Venezula and USA)

And Messi doesn't always do it against top tier better organized teams in the CL, he lost to Inter, lost to Atletico, needs Iniesta against Chelsea, lost to Rafa's Liverpool etc. It's hit and miss like anyone else. And he does perform better because he had all year to practise with his midfielders and strikers.

I watched those games, check the hightlights against Germany, there is one moment where there is 5 German players surrounding him, at the center circle. 

I should have added Torres against Germany which was on par with Balotelli against Germany. But that's it. Why did Torres and Balotelli perform and Messi (who did play well just not amazing) doesn't? I can think of many reasons, both flattering and hard on Messi, but most importantly a grand total of THREE games played by three different teams over a span of 6 years isn't enough of sample size to come to any real conclusion about anything.

You are again ignoring the evidence to a complicated matter, simplfying an extremely complex matter of comparing people's entire careers. It's also important to understand, I have nothing against Maradona, but the numbers just aren't adding up for him.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 08:39:36 am by trimore »
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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7299 on: April 26, 2017, 10:46:21 pm »
Ha! I wouldn't read too much into the 2014 award. Even the guy defending Messi a few posts above said it should have been James. Means about as much as the time Beckham came 2nd in the Ballon d'Or when he wasn't even in the top two midfielders at Man Utd. Meaningless awards.

What's the second tournament by the way? I saw Sanchez got it in the 2016 Copa and no one was named best player in 2015.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/babb/11720312/Lionel-Messi-allegedly-refuses-best-player-award-at-Copa-America-as-trophy-removed-from-ceremony.html

What I don't get about the backing of Maradona is just how much did anyone actually watch of him at napoli, Barca and Boca? It's the same with Pele, or really any 80's and before player. There just doesn't seem to be enough footage, or even the ability to have watched these players a lot unless you were there to really compare them to today's players when we can watch and critique every single game.

Offline trimore

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7300 on: April 27, 2017, 09:21:48 am »
Gets more complicated though when Messi hasn't been superior at club level to someone like Maradona but has been far far inferior at international level.


I'd love to see the mental gymnastics to show how Maradona has been Messi's equal at club level. Please do mind the 200 goal gap.
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Offline J_Kopite

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7301 on: April 27, 2017, 09:37:28 am »
Sweepstake on Xabi Gerrard bringing up growth hormones within the next 5 pages?

Offline paulrazor

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7302 on: April 27, 2017, 09:42:49 am »
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/babb/11720312/Lionel-Messi-allegedly-refuses-best-player-award-at-Copa-America-as-trophy-removed-from-ceremony.html

What I don't get about the backing of Maradona is just how much did anyone actually watch of him at napoli, Barca and Boca? It's the same with Pele, or really any 80's and before player. There just doesn't seem to be enough footage, or even the ability to have watched these players a lot unless you were there to really compare them to today's players when we can watch and critique every single game.
true but maradona was class in fairness. to drag a team like napoli to the heights he did would be the equivalent of messi joining everton and winning the premier league. im sure there is the odd aul arse around to remember the like of pele and maradona etc
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Offline child-in-time

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7303 on: April 27, 2017, 09:46:19 am »
I'd love to see the mental gymnastics to show how Maradona has been Messi's equal at club level. Please do mind the 200 goal gap.
So its all about stats then?
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Offline paulrazor

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7304 on: April 27, 2017, 09:55:49 am »
So its all about stats then?
yes!

67% of people here know that.
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Offline Xabi Gerrard

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7305 on: April 27, 2017, 10:32:46 am »
Sweepstake on Xabi Gerrard bringing up growth hormones within the next 5 pages?

Now that you mention it...... ;D

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/babb/11720312/Lionel-Messi-allegedly-refuses-best-player-award-at-Copa-America-as-trophy-removed-from-ceremony.html

Hmmm..."allegedly refuses"? Are we going on rumours and hear say now? Why did he "allegedly" refuse it anyway? Higuain not post the acceptance RSVP in time?  :-*

I'd love to see the mental gymnastics to show how Maradona has been Messi's equal at club level. Please do mind the 200 goal gap.

I don't think Lampard was a better midfielder than Iniesta either, even though Lampard had a 200+ goal gap in his favour. Hope this statement doesn't blow your mind.

I also think La Liga is one of the most ridiculously unequal leagues in the world in terms of financial muscle for the top 2 and hence their quality. I think this massively favours Barcelona and Madrid players when it comes to racking up goal stats against the cannon fodder, unlike Serie A, which I think was the highest quality league in history during the late 80s & 90s.

Look, I'm quite conscious of the fact that I'm coming across as 'anti-Messi' here, which isn't my position at all. Just an internet forum thing I guess, people start taking more extreme stands to reinforce their points. I think there's a good argument for him being the GOAT based on his Barca performances, but for now I still personally think it's Maradona because to me, I'd like to see the GOAT do it at all levels. Fair enough if you don't, it's not a big deal. But I do think your justiucation of him not performing to his level in World Cup knockouts, like the other greats did, is a bit OTT. For example, a couple of posts above you dismissed my counter point of modern day players being able to do it in summer after a gruelling season, i.e. you dismissed Griezmann 'turning up' in France'16 by describing the German team France beat as "aging". Which is nonsense - have a look at the German team that played that day. 1 player over 30 in a team that won the World Cup at a canter 2 years earlier. I guess we should just agree to disagree. Who knows, maybe next summer in Russia he'll have a Baggio'94 esque tournament and put all doubts to bed. If he doesn't though, I'll still plump for Maradona in these pointless debates.

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7306 on: April 27, 2017, 10:57:41 am »
Yeah, the hype train does start early for some but I don't think either Ronaldo or Neymar were being called one of the best of all time at 22.

Yes he was. Maybe not at that exact specific age of 22, but around/before then in fact.
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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7307 on: April 27, 2017, 11:07:34 am »
Also, this taking the underdog to titles argument is beyond silly. I was hoping that it ended with Leicester's league title win. Yeah, in a team sports, a good team of average players can win a trophy. But that doesn't stop their players from being decidedly average. Had this Leicester success happened 30 years ago, in Maradona era, they would by a mythical, legendary team by now. It's great that we can daily observe that it is in fact a good team full of average players.

It turns out, what Maradona apparently did with Napoli can be replicated, and this time, Mahrez has done it in the era of global super teams, with no transfer restrictions. Does this now mean Mahrez>Maradona? Seriously, people overrate Maradona's achievements (and they are truly overrated at this point, because Maradona fans would argue that he was playing with 10 plumbers at Napoli and 10 farmers in the Argentina team he played).

Make up your mind, what is the core of your argument?

1. Maradona did it for Argentina. Yeah, Villa did it for Spain. So Villa>Messi?
2. Maradona won titles with Napoli. Mahrez and Kante did with Leicester. Mahrez>Messi and Maradona?

I wasn't aware Mahrez just took Leicester to another league title and also a major European trophy...
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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7308 on: April 27, 2017, 11:11:05 am »
Of course he does, it doesn't mean he's not the best player ever though does it? ??? He can't help where he was born.

Poor Messi. Born in a country where no one cares about football and that has a national history of not achieving much in the game. Also had to play with some seriously shit unknown entities such as Di Maria, Higuain, Mascherano, Aguero and so on.
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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7309 on: April 27, 2017, 11:34:37 am »
I don't take international football into account too much when weighing up players, ultimately the player has no control over what team mates he has, the manager, the playing style.

At club level they can find a club that suits their style and talent

And thats exactly why you should take it into account.

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7310 on: April 27, 2017, 11:39:51 am »
Now that you mention it...... ;D

Hmmm..."allegedly refuses"? Are we going on rumours and hear say now? Why did he "allegedly" refuse it anyway? Higuain not post the acceptance RSVP in time?  :-*

I don't think Lampard was a better midfielder than Iniesta either, even though Lampard had a 200+ goal gap in his favour. Hope this statement doesn't blow your mind.

I also think La Liga is one of the most ridiculously unequal leagues in the world in terms of financial muscle for the top 2 and hence their quality. I think this massively favours Barcelona and Madrid players when it comes to racking up goal stats against the cannon fodder, unlike Serie A, which I think was the highest quality league in history during the late 80s & 90s.

Look, I'm quite conscious of the fact that I'm coming across as 'anti-Messi' here, which isn't my position at all. Just an internet forum thing I guess, people start taking more extreme stands to reinforce their points. I think there's a good argument for him being the GOAT based on his Barca performances, but for now I still personally think it's Maradona because to me, I'd like to see the GOAT do it at all levels. Fair enough if you don't, it's not a big deal. But I do think your justiucation of him not performing to his level in World Cup knockouts, like the other greats did, is a bit OTT. For example, a couple of posts above you dismissed my counter point of modern day players being able to do it in summer after a gruelling season, i.e. you dismissed Griezmann 'turning up' in France'16 by describing the German team France beat as "aging". Which is nonsense - have a look at the German team that played that day. 1 player over 30 in a team that won the World Cup at a canter 2 years earlier. I guess we should just agree to disagree. Who knows, maybe next summer in Russia he'll have a Baggio'94 esque tournament and put all doubts to bed. If he doesn't though, I'll still plump for Maradona in these pointless debates.

Nothing wrong with what you're saying at all, people calling him 'Comfortable Goat' should be the one to elicit responses, you can't be comfortable goat when theres already a player who pretty much did everything you did and was arguably the best player in the world by 17, and was still the best player in the world by 30, no one is comfortable greatest when such player has existed.

Offline Xxavi

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7311 on: April 27, 2017, 09:05:31 pm »
Are you comparing the level, overall quality and competitiveness of the Premier League of now to the Serie A of then? Because if you really do, there is no point in arguing with you and I will gladly pass on this utterly ridiculous bullshit.
Again, the BS is coming from you. If you can put 2 and 2 together, you'd understand that the competitiveness of Serie A had a lot to do with the fact that no team could have more than 3 foreigners back in the day. Today's teams are all global superpowers, getting cream of the crop from all parts of the world. Leicester's achievement today trumps anything Napoli did back in the day.

I am spelling out it for you for one last time, Napoli had world's most expensive player in Maradona, some of the top international players in that squad, competing against teams (like themselves) who were restricted when it comes to transfers. Leicester, contenders for relegation due to the fact that they have an average squad, was competing against money bags that are ManCity, ManU and Chelsea who had no transfer restriction for years.

The stupid repetition of the same old cliche that football was better, smarter and more competitive long ago is just that. Had Leicester happened in 80s, you'd be glorifying their achievement here. You are one little step away from saying players shat gold in 80s.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 09:07:39 pm by Xxavi »

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7312 on: April 27, 2017, 09:12:29 pm »
Yes he was. Maybe not at that exact specific age of 22, but around/before then in fact.

Yes, you're right. I don't know why I said that. He was incredible for PSV/Barcelona/Barcelona and yeah, he is one of the best of all time. One wonders if he hadn't had his injuries and health issues, how much better he would have been.

But it's very rare that it happens, to my mind, despite the frequency of certain young players being hyped up, it doesn't happen all that much where a player gets that label, much less at 22. I was just reminded of how great Messi was at such a young age that he was called one of the best of all time even then, and then the fact that he got even better over the next few years is just mad.
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Offline child-in-time

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7313 on: April 27, 2017, 09:36:48 pm »
Again, the BS is coming from you. If you can put 2 and 2 together, you'd understand that the competitiveness of Serie A had a lot to do with the fact that no team could have more than 3 foreigners back in the day. Today's teams are all global superpowers, getting cream of the crop from all parts of the world. Leicester's achievement today trumps anything Napoli did back in the day.

I am spelling out it for you for one last time, Napoli had world's most expensive player in Maradona, some of the top international players in that squad, competing against teams (like themselves) who were restricted when it comes to transfers. Leicester, contenders for relegation due to the fact that they have an average squad, was competing against money bags that are ManCity, ManU and Chelsea who had no transfer restriction for years.

The stupid repetition of the same old cliche that football was better, smarter and more competitive long ago is just that. Had Leicester happened in 80s, you'd be glorifying their achievement here. You are one little step away from saying players shat gold in 80s.
I am pretty sure you cant name anyone from the Napoli team that won the title in 1987 other than Maradona and Ferrara without using Google. Thats because the rest were average. No top international players (in fact Ferrara wasnt even capped at the time) and Maradona was the only non-Italian player in the squad.

I am done arguing with you, you are well known for having an agenda against Italian football for years now and are obsessed with defending everything related to Barcelona, which is just ridiculous. Have fun.
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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7314 on: April 28, 2017, 05:35:18 am »
Like when I started this thread.

 I said Legend at the age of 22.

Now people will try argue if he's the best ever.

if yes or no, I don't think I will ever see a player like him again in my life, but that's ok with me as I don't see anyone coming along anytime soon anywhere near as good.

choose Life.

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7315 on: April 28, 2017, 06:13:32 am »
Now that you mention it...... ;D

Hmmm..."allegedly refuses"? Are we going on rumours and hear say now? Why did he "allegedly" refuse it anyway? Higuain not post the acceptance RSVP in time?  :-*

I don't think Lampard was a better midfielder than Iniesta either, even though Lampard had a 200+ goal gap in his favour. Hope this statement doesn't blow your mind.

I also think La Liga is one of the most ridiculously unequal leagues in the world in terms of financial muscle for the top 2 and hence their quality. I think this massively favours Barcelona and Madrid players when it comes to racking up goal stats against the cannon fodder, unlike Serie A, which I think was the highest quality league in history during the late 80s & 90s.

Look, I'm quite conscious of the fact that I'm coming across as 'anti-Messi' here, which isn't my position at all. Just an internet forum thing I guess, people start taking more extreme stands to reinforce their points. I think there's a good argument for him being the GOAT based on his Barca performances, but for now I still personally think it's Maradona because to me, I'd like to see the GOAT do it at all levels. Fair enough if you don't, it's not a big deal. But I do think your justiucation of him not performing to his level in World Cup knockouts, like the other greats did, is a bit OTT. For example, a couple of posts above you dismissed my counter point of modern day players being able to do it in summer after a gruelling season, i.e. you dismissed Griezmann 'turning up' in France'16 by describing the German team France beat as "aging". Which is nonsense - have a look at the German team that played that day. 1 player over 30 in a team that won the World Cup at a canter 2 years earlier. I guess we should just agree to disagree. Who knows, maybe next summer in Russia he'll have a Baggio'94 esque tournament and put all doubts to bed. If he doesn't though, I'll still plump for Maradona in these pointless debates.

I actually think Lampard is an underrated midfielder, his goalscoring record was seriously impressive while being a strong tackler and passer. Messi ability to be both an incredible attacking midfielder and record breaking goalscorer, to be Iniesta and Lampard in one player, will always be what defines him.

And looking at that German team against France now it was worse than I remembered. I meant a lot of them aged out, "transition" is the word I should have used. No Lahm, no Hummels, no Klose, aging Schweinsteiger (that's huge, he was the leader of those teams), 21 year old Kimmich at RB and we all know how inconsitent Can is. A lot of weariness from Ozil, Gotze and Muller (you don't need to be over 30 to be past your prime). I remember everyone saying how unimpressive that German team was last year and I stand by what I said. A lot can change in two years.

If people think Maradona is better that's fine. Messi's has had a better career (not quite as good at national level, but solidly better at club level everything taken into consideration) But from what I can gather Maradona had a certain appealing improvisational flair that Messi lacks.

My main issue isn't even the Messi vs Maradona debate. It's your post questioning his mentality. After twelve years of transcedent work from Messi, how can anyone question his mentality? It beggers belief. His physicality sure, but not his mentality. You don't do what he has done, for as long as he has done and question his courage. It takes insane courage and mental strength to lead those incredibly large and demanding fanbases of Barcelona and Argentina for over a decade and not snap in half, let alone lead them to the success they have had (4 finals with the NT, all-time leading scorer should really be nothing to scoff at). His mentality is as good as anyone who has played this game. Usually opinions are opinions, but that seems like a bad opinion to me.
 
To each their own I guess.

So its all about stats then?

Alone? Not quite. But he certainly does pass the eye test as well, for the majority of people at least. Both is a powerful combination.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 07:35:46 am by trimore »
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Offline Haemoglobin

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7316 on: April 28, 2017, 11:45:14 am »
If people think Maradona is better that's fine. Messi's has had a better career (not quite as good at national level, but solidly better at club level everything taken into consideration) But from what I can gather Maradona had a certain appealing improvisational flair that Messi lacks.
That's an interesting point of debate, and while I wouldn't completely go along with it (Messi has a fair few inspired magic moments of cheeky improv in his own showreel), it does touch upon another factor that makes him a slightly 'better' player than Maradona, for me.

I love Maradona and the way he approached the game; he had his influences (Bochini most notably), but he played in a way no one had seen before in one package. A very short, barrel-chested robust physical form with Garrincha-like close control at speed, and also an audacity akin to the likes of Pele, Cruyff, or Best. His rebellious cheek, and imagination, is probably what marked him out most when combined with that level of finely-honed technique. But I think Messi's is more finely-honed, more precise. Certainly when it comes to his passing and those delicate pass-like angled shots beyond a helpless 'keeper, but also with his dribbling - I feel like Messi has the ball more tightly under his control, more magnetised to his feet than Maradona tended to. There's not a great deal in it, Diego was an unreal dribbler at speed, no question about that, but Leo is the best at it I've ever seen.

I've hoovered up as much footage as I can in my time for pretty much every world great, as far back as old newsreels of the Mighty Magyars and that original all-conquering Real Madrid side. I've watched shitloads of Maradona's play since I was a youngster, wherever possible, and feel he would just have an idea, and then go with it, flow with it like a bebop jazz musician, responding to what's happening nanosecond by nanosecond, as opposed to it seeming like a rehearsed move coming off. Of course, he trained from a child until he had a rare mastery of that ball, and would've played about with certain scenarios in training, tried unusual things out for a laugh outside of competition, but you tend not to get the impression he is always performing something exactly as he visualised from start to finish, it doesn't appear to be the product of intensive training drills in the sense that I, for one, defo get from someone like Cristiano Ronaldo when he does his special things. Maradona's art has a totally different vibe for me, like he's constantly applying his formidable technical expertise to a brand new style of painting, if you feel me?

To be able to do what he does, Messi obviously reacts insanely quickly with his mind and muscles to every micro-event. But, to me, he seems to have a precision that simply eclipses everyone else; it's like he has slowed the world down to a 1000fps crawl, while he assesses everything around him in normal time in his mind, planning out where next to put his feet, how best to touch the ball, where to move his weight and feint and shimmy. Much of it has to be pure instinct, just has to, but that utterly precise aspect to his magic is also what makes him seem not so much to be improvising and adapting - it seems like he knows exactly what he's doing at every step, it's exactly how he pictured it all going before he even began the move. How he paid tribute to Maradona's most notable goals, in actual competitive games, appearing to deliberately mould the play to achieve the desired effect of replicating those goals so closely - that's fucking insane. Maradona invents it, then Messi replicates it at will to show his appreciation. That's a whole other level of genius, to be able to even dream up doing that in a match.

Now of course, as per how this discussion has gone, he has yet to replicate Maradona's most effective stuff in a World Cup. But despite, as I said before, such things not being a requirement for me to consider Messi the greatest at this stage, it's a positive in one sense, as he's hardly on his last legs (not yet 30!), and that still gives him "something to prove" (heh), an extra self-motivating factor. He's done everything at club level, better than anyone before him, and very likely never to be matched. He can't just decide to win an international tournament, click his fingers and have it happen, he'll require a hell of lot to fall fortunately into place for him outside of his control, and teammates who can at least provide solid support (good luck with that one). But it's another thing to keep driving him on at least, in case that "done it all before" thing starts to kick in and he considers proper, final retirement. It's good in a way that he's still got a big dangling carrot in front of him like that, rather than enter his 30s wondering what else is there for him to do in football. To be as stupendously good as he is, you'd have to have an undying love and committment to football, but everyone gets a bit jaded with the stuff you do day-in, day-out, especially if you've pretty much mastered it and earned all the recognition and acclaim you possibly can, and especially if you sense your prime is now behind you.
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Offline Corkboy

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7317 on: April 28, 2017, 12:08:51 pm »
We should also remember that Messi was only one very late Gotze goal from actually winning a World Cup. After that goal, he actually hit the bar. Fine margins.

Offline Xabi Gerrard

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7318 on: April 28, 2017, 12:35:45 pm »


Speaking of Muller, I'm curious, how does him turning up in 2010 & 2014 fit in with your theory of top level forwards not being able to play to their level in June/July after a gruelling season?



Great post Haemoglobin. Re:this bit in particular;

I've watched shitloads of Maradona's play since I was a youngster, wherever possible, and feel he would just have an idea, and then go with it, flow with it like a bebop jazz musician, responding to what's happening nanosecond by nanosecond, as opposed to it seeming like a rehearsed move coming off. Of course, he trained from a child until he had a rare mastery of that ball, and would've played about with certain scenarios in training, tried unusual things out for a laugh outside of competition, but you tend not to get the impression he is always performing something exactly as he visualised from start to finish, it doesn't appear to be the product of intensive training drills in the sense that I, for one, defo get from someone like Cristiano Ronaldo when he does his special things. Maradona's art has a totally different vibe for me, like he's constantly applying his formidable technical expertise to a brand new style of painting, if you feel me?

Maybe this best explains why he was able to translate his godlike form across Boca, Napoli and Argentina, but why Messi hasn't yet been able to translate his godlike form at Barca to Argentina? That style of player seems more adaptable than others.

Also, re: you watching loads of old Real Madrid footage - where does Di Stefano fit into all this GOAT business? I've never seen him (barring some grainy footage of the Hamden final goals) - does he have a claim to be the greatest as some oldies claim?

Offline Haemoglobin

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7319 on: April 28, 2017, 01:26:48 pm »
Also, re: you watching loads of old Real Madrid footage - where does Di Stefano fit into all this GOAT business? I've never seen him (barring some grainy footage of the Hamden final goals) - does he have a claim to be the greatest as some oldies claim?
Very difficult to say, as I tend to sort of separate the early 'pioneers' of very technical football from the giants who emerged once the sport properly exploded in the '60s and onward (when unedited filmed/televised matches became more commonplace) in my mind. A lot of the time the pitches were pretty crap - even in posh places on the continent like Spain, ha - and Di Stefano would come deep for the ball very often rather than wait to be fed, which is where you tended to see his skills at their best. I definitely think the claims of his being a 'complete' footballer hold up better for him than for some others around that era, because you really do get to see him dispossessing opponents in deep areas, doing a few stepovers and feints to evade challenges, then picking out forward passes that require real game intelligence and vision, along with yer fancy flicks an one-twos and the like. There's no doubting that he was enormously influential, as even today he's a joy to watch.

One thing I will say is that sometimes an golden oldie's reputation really does seem hyperinflated, most notably with someone like Stanley Matthews, who did not live up to his billing, at least from what I could see of his play. But Di Stefano and Puskas (and a few of the other Hungarians in that amazingly modern team) were two where you just go, "oh yeah, that's a proper footballer". It has little to do with their athleticism, they just look the business on the ball. I consider that in itself extremely valuable, as they were leading the way technique-wise in far more primitive eras than the likes of Cruyff plied their trade, and we all know how much of an impact he made on the game with his no-fucks-given brilliance.

There just isn't enough to put him at the very top though, for me. Same with Pele, just haven't got to see enough to elevate them above yer Maradonas and Messis; I believe in each of their roles as attackers, those two Argies are pretty peerless - influenced by their great predecessors certainly, but taking the art of creative forward play to new levels.

I have no issue with any arl fellas totally hero-worshipping Di Stefano though, he's up there with the best 'complete' players in history - it's certainly not highly arguable like anyone giving Duncan Edwards the benefit of the doubt that he was bound to fulfil his enormous potential to the fullest and beyond had he not died so tragically young. I would personally put him above Zidane, and I fucking love Zizou, me, so that's no small thing. But that isn't top 5 territory.
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