Author Topic: Labour Thread * No Gaza *  (Read 92014 times)

Offline stewil007

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,248
Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #160 on: November 9, 2023, 02:56:36 pm »
Were going round in circles
Q If you get into government how can you help the most vulnerable in society
A By growing the economy

If someone can explain how that directly benefits that demographic, then great



Surely this argument is about timeframes.

The most vulnerable need help on day one and i'm guessing this is where your argument is coming from?

The likely scenario is that growing the econony will take time and the positive effects of that on the most vulnerable group is likely to be counted in years instead of weeks and months.

Offline Sammy5IsAlive

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,855
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #161 on: November 9, 2023, 02:58:48 pm »
This is the same convo I had with Dr Beaker.

Yeah our two posts crossed over and we were making the same point/explanation for you. Hope it helped?

Offline ianburns252

  • RAWK Economist not the MP spelling and Crosby background differentiate
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,322
  • Gentleman in the streets; freak in the spreadsheet
Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #162 on: November 9, 2023, 03:00:20 pm »
Surely this argument is about timeframes.

The most vulnerable need help on day one and i'm guessing this is where your argument is coming from?

The likely scenario is that growing the econony will take time and the positive effects of that on the most vulnerable group is likely to be counted in years instead of weeks and months.

Its the whole "give a man a fish thing" - Starmer's answer is how we make things better in the long term rather than simply solving the symptom today.

I think many would also call him saying "we'll increase benefits through extra taxation" (for example) to simply be a sticking plaster so bit damned with whatever he says (not pointing that at you KJ btw)

Offline Kenny's Jacket

  • Kenny's Vegan Jacket Potato. Talks more sense than me.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,665
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #163 on: November 9, 2023, 03:06:42 pm »
Surely this argument is about timeframes.

The most vulnerable need help on day one and i'm guessing this is where your argument is coming from?

The likely scenario is that growing the econony will take time and the positive effects of that on the most vulnerable group is likely to be counted in years instead of weeks and months.


It will trickle down eventually
As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.

Offline oldfordie

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,450
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #164 on: November 9, 2023, 03:07:36 pm »
If you grow the economy you get higher tax returns. That gives you the money to increase benefits/funding to public services/fund infrastructure projects and the various other forms of government expenditure that benefits everyone, not just those who are in work.
Surprising what you take for granted isn't it. it's not as if it's something new so I just assumed people understood what it meant, it's played a part of Tory ideology for decades, I think Thatcher banged on about it as well.
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

Offline Sammy5IsAlive

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,855
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #165 on: November 9, 2023, 03:17:02 pm »
Surprising what you take for granted isn't it. it's not as if it's something new so I just assumed people understood what it meant, it's played a part of Tory ideology for decades, I think Thatcher banged on about it as well.

I think that there is a big difference between Thatcherite 'trickle down' economics and Blairite 'third way' economics.

The Thatcherite model is much more market orientated and associated with concepts of a smaller state/public expenditure. Basically the idea is that if you facilitate the rich getting richer, their wealth will trickle down through society by the means of the free market, without any need for the involvement of the state or public spending.

Third way economics (which is really what Andy is getting at) assumes a much greater role for the state and higher levels of public expenditure. So the government facilitates economic growth, even if that growth is unequal in distribution, in the expectation that the higher tax revenues can be used by the state to mitigate against those inequalities.
« Last Edit: November 9, 2023, 03:19:54 pm by Sammy5IsAlive »

Offline Kenny's Jacket

  • Kenny's Vegan Jacket Potato. Talks more sense than me.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,665
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #166 on: November 9, 2023, 03:24:44 pm »
I think that there is a big difference between Thatcherite 'trickle down' economics and Blairite 'third way' economics.

The Thatcherite model is much more market orientated and associated with concepts of a smaller state/public expenditure. Basically the idea is that if you facilitate the rich getting richer, their wealth will trickle down through society by the means of the free market, without any need for the involvement of the state or public spending.

Third way economics (which is really what Andy is getting at) assumes a much greater role for the state and higher levels of public expenditure. So the government facilitates economic growth, even if that growth is unequal in distribution, in the expectation that the higher tax revenues can be used by the state to mitigate against those inequalities.

You seem to know your stuff - wiki indicates 3rd way economics favours workfare rather than welfare.  Do you agree with that statement? 

As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.

Offline oldfordie

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,450
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #167 on: November 9, 2023, 03:33:21 pm »
I think that there is a big difference between Thatcherite 'trickle down' economics and Blairite 'third way' economics.

The Thatcherite model is much more market orientated and associated with concepts of a smaller state/public expenditure. Basically the idea is that if you facilitate the rich getting richer, their wealth will trickle down through society by the means of the free market, without any need for the involvement of the state or public spending.

Third way economics (which is really what Andy is getting at) assumes a much greater role for the state and higher levels of public expenditure. So the government facilitates economic growth, even if that growth is unequal in distribution, in the expectation that the higher tax revenues can be used by the state to mitigate against those inequalities.
Looks the same to me, still boils down to creating a thriving economy to help Companies thrive, they sell more and they bring in more revenue for the government to spend or distribute as you call it,  how the government spend it is not part of the discussion on what Trickle down economics means. it's a bullshit theory that argues giving the rich more money and they will let that money trickle down the ladder to the workers below them.
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

Offline Red-Soldier

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 16,706
Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #168 on: November 9, 2023, 03:37:24 pm »


Inequality still grew under the Blair/Brown governments, though.  We had a well-functioning welfare state then, however.  So, there was a safety net.  We didn't have the destitution of today.

That's when the Red-Wall started to leave Labour, too.

Inequality has been growning, unabated (mostly), since the late 70s.
« Last Edit: November 9, 2023, 03:50:49 pm by Red-Soldier »

Offline Sammy5IsAlive

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,855
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #169 on: November 9, 2023, 03:37:59 pm »
You seem to know your stuff - wiki indicates 3rd way economics favours workfare rather than welfare.  Do you agree with that statement?

No I don't to be honest.

I don't think that 'workfare' is an economic concept, more a social concept about what the 'social contract' should be between the state/taxpaying members of society and people in receipt of state welfare payments.

It's a bit like talking about New Labour's crime or education policies as being part of third way economics.

 


Offline Sammy5IsAlive

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,855
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #170 on: November 9, 2023, 03:42:46 pm »
Inequality still grew under the Blair/Brown governments, though.  We had a well-functioning welfare state then, though.  So, there was a safety net.

That's when the Red-Wall started to leave Labour, too.

Inequality has been growning, unabated (mostly), since the late 70s.

Oh yeah, I wasn't taking a position on whether 'the third way' actually achieved its aims or was/is a good approach. Just making the point that it was demonstrably different both in theory and practice to Thatcherite economics.

Offline Red-Soldier

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 16,706
Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #171 on: November 9, 2023, 03:44:58 pm »
Oh yeah, I wasn't taking a position on whether 'the third way' actually achieved its aims or was/is a good approach. Just making the point that it was demonstrably different both in theory and practice to Thatcherite economics.

Yes, it was very different.  And yielded very different results.

Offline Kenny's Jacket

  • Kenny's Vegan Jacket Potato. Talks more sense than me.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,665
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #172 on: November 9, 2023, 04:17:34 pm »
No I don't to be honest.

I don't think that 'workfare' is an economic concept, more a social concept about what the 'social contract' should be between the state/taxpaying members of society and people in receipt of state welfare payments.

It's a bit like talking about New Labour's crime or education policies as being part of third way economics.

OK thanks, Its not a concept that Im familiar with
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workfare

It sems to indicate it means benefits are conditional, like job seekers allowance

Im not trying to catch, you out, its a term I read for the first time 5 minutes ago and just researching it  :thumbup

As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.

Offline oldfordie

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,450
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #173 on: November 9, 2023, 04:22:33 pm »
Inequality still grew under the Blair/Brown governments, though.  We had a well-functioning welfare state then, however.  So, there was a safety net.  We didn't have the destitution of today.

That's when the Red-Wall started to leave Labour, too.

Inequality has been growning, unabated (mostly), since the late 70s.
I don't know if you remember the video Corbyn made 6 months before the last GE, I remember it well as it was a shocking thing for a Labour leader to say especially before a election. Corbyn said Labour have told you inequality doesn't matter which was untrue, he also said Labour ignored you, that was a disgusting thing to say for a few reasons, it was untrue, how many votes did that win for Labour 6 months later, it was a stupid thing to say.
 Blair destroyed him a few days later when he made a video in response telling him all of Labours achievements which took millions out of poverty. etc etc.
 I think this inequality argument is meaningless unless you explain what inequality means.
 I would look to see if they took people out of poverty as that is what the biggest problem inequality brings, then comes health, education and caring for the vulnerable and the old.
Labour did magnificently when it comes to improving all these problems. they are what inequality is all about to me.

It's no use people coming in calling the Torys cruel for allowing the massive rise in the need for foodbanks, it's no use attacking them for allowing millions to fall into poverty, people dying due to lack of health care, the vulnerable left to fend for themselves. people unable to feed their family going hungry for days, I could go on, the point is this is the real effect of inequality to me, it's what the Tory ideology is based on, pay to look after yourselves, tough luck if you haven't the money, am alright jack. you have to accept fighting this is the biggest part of fighting inequality.
« Last Edit: November 9, 2023, 04:50:11 pm by oldfordie »
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

Offline Sammy5IsAlive

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,855
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #174 on: November 9, 2023, 04:26:01 pm »
OK thanks, Its not a concept that Im familiar with
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workfare

It sems to indicate it means benefits are conditional, like job seekers allowance

Im not trying to catch, you out, its a term I read for the first time 5 minutes ago and just researching it  :thumbup

No worries happy to help  :) !

One of the many grim policies of this period of Tory government was where people on JSA were being told that in order to receive their c70pw JSA they had to take part in unpaid work placements - essentially being made to work for far below the minimum wage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_(Reilly)_v_Secretary_of_State_for_Work_and_Pensions

Offline filopastry

  • seldom posts but often delivers
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,798
  • Let me tell you a story.........
Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #175 on: November 9, 2023, 04:55:54 pm »
On trickle down economics, I would say it generally refers to policies which aim to reduce the tax rates paid by the rich and this will generate wealth which will eventually trickle down to all, I haven't seen anything remotely to indicate that is the position Labour are taking.

In reality Labour is going to have to increase the tax take just to have us stand still, public finances are a mess and with demographics continuing to get more challenging, we are looking at needing to increase taxation just to maintain the current dismal level of public services.

Growth is going to be important though, we can't afford another Lost Decade and a half on that front.

Offline Red Beret

  • Yellow Beret. Wants to sit in the Lobster Pot. Fat-fingered. Key. Boa. Rd. Kille. R. tonunlick! Soggy Knickers King. Bed-Exiting / Grunting / Bending Down / Cum Face Champion 2023.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 51,572
Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #176 on: November 9, 2023, 05:01:56 pm »
It's impossible to make any further cuts; councils are already going to the wall as it is. The only solution is tax hikes, and the general public is already struggling with grocery inflation and cost of living.

That means it's way past time some of these fucking tax loopholes got slammed shut, or at the very least tax hikes for the rich and corporations.

I'm actually glad Sunak didn't pull the trigger on a utility windfall tax now - means Labour can retain the option themselves.
I don't always visit Lobster Pot.  But when I do. I sit.

Popcorn's Art

Offline Red-Soldier

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 16,706
Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #177 on: November 9, 2023, 05:19:49 pm »


I'm not even talking about Corbyn, not sure what he was to do with anything.  I wasn't aware of him being a PM...

I've been sick/unemployed under both, a Labour and Tory government.  I personally know the difference.  Thats the safety net, I was speaking about.  It's one of the good things Labour did.  It isn't there now.

Doesn't change the fact that inequality hasn't stopped growing since the late 70s. 

If anyone is interested in inequality, I suggest they read the IFS Deaton Review. 



« Last Edit: November 9, 2023, 07:00:09 pm by Red-Soldier »

Offline Sangria

  • In trying to be right ends up wrong without fail
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 19,112
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #178 on: November 9, 2023, 08:21:01 pm »
I'm not even talking about Corbyn, not sure what he was to do with anything.  I wasn't aware of him being a PM...

I've been sick/unemployed under both, a Labour and Tory government.  I personally know the difference.  Thats the safety net, I was speaking about.  It's one of the good things Labour did.  It isn't there now.

Doesn't change the fact that inequality hasn't stopped growing since the late 70s. 

If anyone is interested in inequality, I suggest they read the IFS Deaton Review. 

Do people at the bottom really care about inequality at the top if the standard rises at the bottom? The last Labour government raised the base level by quite a bit. When you're at the bottom, and your standard of living rises, inequality at the top is a theoretical thing that doesn't affect you.
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline filopastry

  • seldom posts but often delivers
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,798
  • Let me tell you a story.........
Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #179 on: November 9, 2023, 08:37:49 pm »
Globalisation has generally helped drive more inequality within Western countries I would say while at the same time reducing inequality between countries although that phase of ever increasing globalisation is likely coming to an end

Offline oldfordie

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,450
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #180 on: November 9, 2023, 09:22:23 pm »
Inequality still grew under the Blair/Brown governments, though.  We had a well-functioning welfare state then, however.  So, there was a safety net.  We didn't have the destitution of today.

That's when the Red-Wall started to leave Labour, too.

Inequality has been growning, unabated (mostly), since the late 70s.
I brought Corbyn up as he argued Labour didn't care about inequality when it wasn't true, people are repeating it but I don't think many have actually considered what inequality actually means to people in real life.
Ive mentioned the biggest problem I have with this is people keep banging on about how cruel the Tory policys are but they don't seem to consider it when judging Labour on inequality, I would say it's the most important thing to start on, others agree when they argue Labour can't wait for growth they have to help people out of poverty as soon as they take power. the big difference between the well off and the poorer people in society (Inequality)is being able to pay the bills, paying for food, care for their children with food and clothes, vulnerable not suffering due to being skint, no care, left to fend for themselves, homeless, people who are well off don't suffer these conditions so if Labour eliminate these conditions for the poorer people in society and all the OAPs and vulnerable then they have cut inequality drastically as far as am concerned.
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

Online TepidT2O

  • Deffo NOT 9"! MUFC bedwetter. Grass. Folically-challenged, God-piece-wearing, monkey-rubber. Jizz aroma expert. Operating at the lower end of the distribution curve...has the hots for Alan. Bastard. Fearless in transfer windows with lack of convicti
  • Lead Matchday Commentator
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 94,333
  • Dejan Lovren fan club member #1
Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #181 on: November 9, 2023, 09:22:49 pm »
Globalisation has generally helped drive more inequality within Western countries I would say while at the same time reducing inequality between countries although that phase of ever increasing globalisation is likely coming to an end
How?
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline Sheer Magnetism

  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,063
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #182 on: November 9, 2023, 09:29:36 pm »
How?
By destroying the local manufacturing base that provided decent union jobs for skilled workers without formal education?

Online TepidT2O

  • Deffo NOT 9"! MUFC bedwetter. Grass. Folically-challenged, God-piece-wearing, monkey-rubber. Jizz aroma expert. Operating at the lower end of the distribution curve...has the hots for Alan. Bastard. Fearless in transfer windows with lack of convicti
  • Lead Matchday Commentator
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 94,333
  • Dejan Lovren fan club member #1
Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #183 on: November 9, 2023, 10:04:53 pm »
By destroying the local manufacturing base that provided decent union jobs for skilled workers without formal education?
Ok, that’s possible… but if the country is affluent, isn’t the clause still more to do with that country and the way it manages inequality?

And we’re manufacturing jobs ever well paid??

( not arguing here, I’m just interested and wonder if it’s correlation rather than causation…. Or not)
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline Ma Vie en Rouge

  • J'aime voir...!
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,202
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #184 on: November 10, 2023, 09:32:31 am »
On trickle down economics, I would say it generally refers to policies which aim to reduce the tax rates paid by the rich and this will generate wealth which will eventually trickle down to all, I haven't seen anything remotely to indicate that is the position Labour are taking.

In reality Labour is going to have to increase the tax take just to have us stand still, public finances are a mess and with demographics continuing to get more challenging, we are looking at needing to increase taxation just to maintain the current dismal level of public services.

Growth is going to be important though, we can't afford another Lost Decade and a half on that front.

So everyone keeps telling us. But can the planet actually afford more "growth", if it means increased resource consumption, increased waste, increased habitat destruction? Which it does, generally, despite visions of some clean tech-future where we all wear VR masks and work in abstract creative industries.

We're facing a future of huge population displacement due to climate change, with all the attendant wildfires, rogue storms and flooding that comes with it. That's going to cost every economy in the world untold billions of dollars.

I think it's far more likely that most nations become economically "poorer" overall as a result of this future, than somehow entering into some tech-fuelled golden-age of economic recovery. Ultimately, economic wealth is entirely underpinned by the natural wealth of the planet. That has been clear to the sane since time immemorial and is increasingly clear even to those of us in the West sold fantasy visions of endless consumption. Whilst almost every government on earth goes on about "growth", what is actually needed is fair redistribution of wealth, and the prevention of huge wealth (and therefore power) disparities within populations. Healthy societies simply do not have these vast wealth divides that have opened up in modern nations - it is hugely damaging to democracy and justice to allow them. I'd like to see a government with the courage to address these realities instead of pushing the endless dream of "growth" in a time where every single piece of feedback we are getting from the planet is asking us to stop, please, as a species.

This doesn't mean poor people getting poorer - but that is what will happen under "growth" visions. As the planet's climate becomes more and more volatile, the "size of the pie" will shrink, not grow, and the only result I can see, without radical cultural changes, will be increased hoarding of vast tranches of the remaining wealth to a few individuals and their coteries. That, essentially, is very much already underway as they and their mouthpieces continue to sell us the lie of growth, to divert from the reality: there is plenty of wealth (if we don't all remain addicted to the consumerist model), it's just incredibly unevenly distributed.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2023, 09:56:44 am by Ma Vie en Rouge »

Offline Andy @ Allerton!

  • Missing an asterisk - no, wait sorry, that's his rusty starfish..... RAWK Apple fanboy. Hedley Lamarr's bestest mate. Has done nothing incredible ever.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 73,715
  • Asterisks baby!
Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #185 on: November 10, 2023, 09:54:07 am »
I brought Corbyn up as he argued Labour didn't care about inequality when it wasn't true, people are repeating it but I don't think many have actually considered what inequality actually means to people in real life.
Ive mentioned the biggest problem I have with this is people keep banging on about how cruel the Tory policys are but they don't seem to consider it when judging Labour on inequality, I would say it's the most important thing to start on, others agree when they argue Labour can't wait for growth they have to help people out of poverty as soon as they take power. the big difference between the well off and the poorer people in society (Inequality)is being able to pay the bills, paying for food, care for their children with food and clothes, vulnerable not suffering due to being skint, no care, left to fend for themselves, homeless, people who are well off don't suffer these conditions so if Labour eliminate these conditions for the poorer people in society and all the OAPs and vulnerable then they have cut inequality drastically as far as am concerned.


To be fair to Corbyn. He was a rich kid, brought up by rich parents, lived in a literal mansion and has had no experience of need or want or poverty. He also has a long history of campaigns to help people outside of his country, rather than looking at people here that need help.

You can't blame him for that. Not his fault he's minted and has never lived in the real world and never has had to graft to keep a roof over his head.
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

Offline oldfordie

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,450
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #186 on: November 10, 2023, 10:12:58 am »
To be fair to Corbyn. He was a rich kid, brought up by rich parents, lived in a literal mansion and has had no experience of need or want or poverty. He also has a long history of campaigns to help people outside of his country, rather than looking at people here that need help.

You can't blame him for that. Not his fault he's minted and has never lived in the real world and never has had to graft to keep a roof over his head.
I think he's a protester rather than a fixer.
Owen Smith the Labour Welfare minister in Corbyns shadow Cabinet said he gave up on him over the fight against the roll out of Universal Credit.
Smith went to him asking for his support going to the HOL. Smith sat down with him explaining how the cuts would hurt people unfairly, Corbyn found it too complicated to follow, Smith ended up going to the HOL alone and convinced the Lords to block it. I found it sickening when Corbyn smiled taking the credit for this while standing next to Smith on stage during the leadership election without acknowledging the credit for blocking the roll out belonged to Smith, how his shadow government had forced the government to U-turn on Universal Credit.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2023, 10:17:50 am by oldfordie »
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

Offline upthereds1993

  • Anny Roader
  • ****
  • Posts: 277
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #187 on: November 10, 2023, 10:18:02 am »
To be fair to Corbyn. He was a rich kid, brought up by rich parents, lived in a literal mansion and has had no experience of need or want or poverty. He also has a long history of campaigns to help people outside of his country, rather than looking at people here that need help.


That's a tad disingenuous in regards to Corbyn. The acts of trying to help people in your own country and promoting social justice around the wider world aren't mutually exclusive.

Offline upthereds1993

  • Anny Roader
  • ****
  • Posts: 277
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #188 on: November 10, 2023, 10:32:09 am »
I think he's a protester rather than a fixer.
Owen Smith the Labour Welfare minister in Corbyns shadow Cabinet said he gave up on him over the fight against the roll out of Universal Credit.
Smith went to him asking for his support going to the HOL. Smith sat down with him explaining how the cuts would hurt people unfairly, Corbyn found it too complicated to follow, Smith ended up going to the HOL alone and convinced the Lords to block it. I found it sickening when Corbyn smiled taking the credit for this while standing next to Smith on stage during the leadership election without acknowledging the credit for blocking the roll out belonged to Smith, how his shadow government had forced the government to U-turn on Universal Credit.

Isn't that the guy who lodged a leadership challenge against Corbyn and got trounced? I'd take that with a pinch of salt.

Also, no matter what you think of Corbyn, if you believe that an ex-pharmaceutical lobbyist had to "sit down" and explain to somebody who had at the time been a Labour MP for 30 odd years, that welfare cuts would "hurt people" then you're allowing your prejudice to get in the way of rational thinking.

Offline classycarra

  • The Left Disonourable Chuntering Member For Scousepool.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 30,507
Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #189 on: November 10, 2023, 10:50:11 am »
Isn't that the guy who lodged a leadership challenge against Corbyn and got trounced? I'd take that with a pinch of salt.

Also, no matter what you think of Corbyn, if you believe that an ex-pharmaceutical lobbyist had to "sit down" and explain to somebody who had at the time been a Labour MP for 30 odd years, that welfare cuts would "hurt people" then you're allowing your prejudice to get in the way of rational thinking.
You're saying that you don't believe a very simple and long established tradition of how Cabinet Ministers (and Shadow Cabinet in this case) work - can't really understand why you think 30 years of being a backbench MP makes someone a savant on every policy issue? I'm not sure you get to level accusations of irrationality based on that

Offline Nobby Reserve

  • Onanistic Charades Champion Of Roundabouts. Euphemistic Gerbil Starver.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 11,984
  • Do you wanna build a snowman?
Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #190 on: November 10, 2023, 10:55:02 am »
Do people at the bottom really care about inequality at the top if the standard rises at the bottom?


All depends whether you subscribe to the principle that poverty is ALWAYS relative.

I do.

Not least because *the economy* tends to move that 'base level' over time, so people may initially feel better off if, say, everyone is given a 10% increase in their income. But inflation (and it doesn't have to be across the board inflation) will strip that gain away over time.

There was a Despatches episode several years ago that detailed how the wealthiest had invested in capital and real estate. With real estate, they had created a scarcity that in itself drive up prices. In turn that drove up the rents they would charge.

The effect was to whittle away any initial financial gain for the people who don't own real estate/capital (more and more of their income devoted to housing costs). Yet the same process not only enshrines that financial gain for the real estate/capital-owners, but enhances it.

The same programme (IIRC) also used the study that showed in real terms the lowest paid 10% had, between 1997 and 2012, seen their income be static in real terms. In that same era, the highest paid 1% had seen their incomes more than double in real terms.

« Last Edit: November 10, 2023, 11:21:09 am by Nobby Reserve »
A Tory, a worker and an immigrant are sat round a table. There's a plate of 10 biscuits in the middle. The Tory takes 9 then turns to the worker and says "that immigrant is trying to steal your biscuit"

Offline Andy @ Allerton!

  • Missing an asterisk - no, wait sorry, that's his rusty starfish..... RAWK Apple fanboy. Hedley Lamarr's bestest mate. Has done nothing incredible ever.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 73,715
  • Asterisks baby!
Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #191 on: November 10, 2023, 10:55:27 am »
That's a tad disingenuous in regards to Corbyn. The acts of trying to help people in your own country and promoting social justice around the wider world aren't mutually exclusive.

He's got a long history of 'Socialist Campaigns' around places like Palestine, which is fair enough, but I'd rather a British Politician to be focussed primarily on his country.

He was born and raised in the south, which is affluent. He was born to rich parents in the richest City on Earth. He lived in an actual mansion. I'd have to double-check, but I'm not sure he ever had an actual real job where he had to work to put food on the table? He lives in a £1M+ house in the richest part of the UK and he has had no knowledge of poverty or the stuggles that people have had across the UK.

This isn't meant as a criticism. If you are minted and have never had to work a day in your life then you can still have aspirations to help other people, but that didn't seem to be a primary driver with him.

Starmer was from a middle-class background, had working class parents, got a job, went through education and then through his hard work attained the very top of his profession and did a lot of really impressive things.

He had to fight to get where he got to, has an appreciation of hard work, got an actual job and then achieved remarkable success from a very humble beginning.

That's why I like him as a person and I like Corbyn less as a person. I came from not a great background, worked my bollocks off and after years of hard work, I have done pretty well. I always respect people that work hard and attain their goals. I respect those born with a silver spoon in their mouths that haven't done a hard days work in their lives a bit less.
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

Offline upthereds1993

  • Anny Roader
  • ****
  • Posts: 277
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #192 on: November 10, 2023, 10:58:47 am »
You're saying that you don't believe a very simple and long established tradition of how Cabinet Ministers (and Shadow Cabinet in this case) work - can't really understand why you think 30 years of being a backbench MP makes someone a savant on every policy issue? I'm not sure you get to level accusations of irrationality based on that

It was the wording of the initial post. You don't need to be a savant on welfare policy to understand that cuts would "hurt people". You'd expect most teenagers to be able to grasp that, let alone a backbench MP of 30+ years who has probably held hundreds of surgeries and spoken with people who were feeling said hurt on countless occasions.


Offline oldfordie

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,450
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #193 on: November 10, 2023, 11:01:41 am »
Isn't that the guy who lodged a leadership challenge against Corbyn and got trounced? I'd take that with a pinch of salt.

Also, no matter what you think of Corbyn, if you believe that an ex-pharmaceutical lobbyist had to "sit down" and explain to somebody who had at the time been a Labour MP for 30 odd years, that welfare cuts would "hurt people" then you're allowing your prejudice to get in the way of rational thinking.
:) Yeah, he got trounced. never stood a chance, not sure if you watched those debates but Corbyn could have farted and still got a standing ovation.


Corbyn couldn't follow the complicated way Universal Credit worked, it was down to Intelligence so my opinion is based on rational thinking. 30 yrs as a backbencher doesn't prove your intelligent enough to run a country, am sure he was a good local MP but 30 yrs as a backbencher in a safe seat doesn't prove he's intelligent.

It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

Online Mahern

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 980
Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #194 on: November 10, 2023, 11:02:02 am »

In turn that drove up the tents they would charge.



Hasn't the incumbent Home Secretary made this illegal?

Offline Andy @ Allerton!

  • Missing an asterisk - no, wait sorry, that's his rusty starfish..... RAWK Apple fanboy. Hedley Lamarr's bestest mate. Has done nothing incredible ever.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 73,715
  • Asterisks baby!
Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #195 on: November 10, 2023, 11:08:14 am »
It was the wording of the initial post. You don't need to be a savant on welfare policy to understand that cuts would "hurt people". You'd expect most teenagers to be able to grasp that, let alone a backbench MP of 30+ years who has probably held hundreds of surgeries and spoken with people who were feeling said hurt on countless occasions.



Islington North isn't the best in regards to training and eduction, but is in the top 1% in regards to poverty compared to other areas of the UK. It has one of the highest instances of private flats and maisonettes which are in the top 1% of prices in the UK.

I doubt his surgeries involved that many people who were desperate and in dire poverty.

And again, I'm not having a go at him. He lives in a rich part of the richest City and in the richest part of the UK surrouned by the richest people.

Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

Offline Nobby Reserve

  • Onanistic Charades Champion Of Roundabouts. Euphemistic Gerbil Starver.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 11,984
  • Do you wanna build a snowman?
Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #196 on: November 10, 2023, 11:16:13 am »
To be fair to Corbyn. He was a rich kid, brought up by rich parents, lived in a literal mansion and has had no experience of need or want or poverty. He also has a long history of campaigns to help people outside of his country, rather than looking at people here that need help.

You can't blame him for that. Not his fault he's minted and has never lived in the real world and never has had to graft to keep a roof over his head.


It's a misnomer that the Corbyns were particularly rich. His father was an engineer and mother a maths teacher. He did attend a minor fee-paying grammar school, but only as a day pupil. The 'mansion' they moved into was ramshackle when they bought it, and the family were leftist-intellectuals, decorating the house more with books than posh furniture. His upbringing has been described as 'country bumpkin' and the kids generally looked scruffy.

His jobs upon leaving school included working at a pig farm (made him a vegetarian), a journalist for a local newspaper, and two years as a youth worker and geography teacher in a fledgling post-colonial Jamaica then travelling South America whilst doing some casual work (where he got experience of real poverty). On returning to the UK, he spent several years as a trade union organiser (and if you don't think that is 'real work' then you have no idea) before moving into politics.

I'd rather someone had that varied work history than 1) a uni degree in Gov'n'Pol; 2) job as a research assistant for a political party; 3) SPAD; 4) MP (which is the career path many MPs seem to take)



A Tory, a worker and an immigrant are sat round a table. There's a plate of 10 biscuits in the middle. The Tory takes 9 then turns to the worker and says "that immigrant is trying to steal your biscuit"

Offline Sangria

  • In trying to be right ends up wrong without fail
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 19,112
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #197 on: November 10, 2023, 11:19:46 am »

All depends whether you subscribe to the principle that poverty is ALWAYS relative.

I do.

Not least because *the economy* tends to move that 'base level' over time, so people may initially feel better off if, say, everyone is given a 10% increase in their income. But inflation (and it doesn't have to be across the board inflation) will strip that gain away over time.

There was a Despatches episode several years ago that detailed how the wealthiest had invested in capital and real estate. With real estate, they had created a scarcity that in itself drive up prices. In turn that drove up the tents they would charge.

The effect was to whittle away any initial financial gain for the people who don't own real estate/capital (more and more of their income devoted to housing costs). Yet the same process not only enshrines that financial gain for the real estate/capital-owners, but enhances it.

The same programme (IIRC) also used the study that showed in real terms the lowest paid 10% had, between 1997 and 2012, seen their income be static in real terms. In that same era, the highest paid 1% had seen their incomes more than double in real terms.

I live on that baseline. I don't care what happens at the top, which doesn't affect me, only what happens at the bottom, which does affect me.
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline Nobby Reserve

  • Onanistic Charades Champion Of Roundabouts. Euphemistic Gerbil Starver.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 11,984
  • Do you wanna build a snowman?
Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #198 on: November 10, 2023, 11:20:22 am »
Saying all that, Corbyn was an utterly shite leader.

I despair that the one chance 'the left' had of taking the reins of the Labour Party, and it happened to be the 'turn' of a buffoon to be the token leftist candidate when the tide of Labour member opinion had shifted markedly.

I think McDonnell would have been much better. Still gave the open goal about his support for Sinn Fein, etc (the general public don't do nuance, just black and white), but had infinitely better political instincts and would have been far more capable of building a broader left-of-centre coalition in the Labour Party rather than alienating so many.
A Tory, a worker and an immigrant are sat round a table. There's a plate of 10 biscuits in the middle. The Tory takes 9 then turns to the worker and says "that immigrant is trying to steal your biscuit"

Offline Kenny's Jacket

  • Kenny's Vegan Jacket Potato. Talks more sense than me.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,665
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #199 on: November 10, 2023, 11:21:52 am »

It's a misnomer that the Corbyns were particularly rich. His father was an engineer and mother a maths teacher. He did attend a minor fee-paying grammar school, but only as a day pupil. The 'mansion' they moved into was ramshackle when they bought it, and the family were leftist-intellectuals, decorating the house more with books than posh furniture. His upbringing has been described as 'country bumpkin' and the kids generally looked scruffy.

His jobs upon leaving school included working at a pig farm (made him a vegetarian), a journalist for a local newspaper, and two years as a youth worker and geography teacher in a fledgling post-colonial Jamaica then travelling South America whilst doing some casual work (where he got experience of real poverty). On returning to the UK, he spent several years as a trade union organiser (and if you don't think that is 'real work' then you have no idea) before moving into politics.

I'd rather someone had that varied work history than 1) a uni degree in Gov'n'Pol; 2) job as a research assistant for a political party; 3) SPAD; 4) MP (which is the career path many MPs seem to take)

Whilst growing up in the southern county of Shropshire
As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.