Topic: Brazilian Porn Review Topic (Warning: may contain Wijnaldum)

[red vinyl]

I see posts like this pop up all the time after we beat people. Can't we just give them credit where it's due?

This.

[Clayton Bigsby]

He played brilliantly. He is still a Homer though but obviously that can change. Torres started as a Homer as well. It's not a life sentence

[Chalky Boots]

I see posts like this pop up all the time after we beat people. Can't we just give them credit where it's due?

No, never. It must always be them being bad rather than us being ridiculously good.

[jillcwhomever]

He had a really impressive performance last night and that's good to see. I would love to see him do that in the Premier League as well.

[Giono]

He had a really impressive performance last night and that's good to see. I would love to see him do that in the Premier League as well.

Like against Man City? That was in the Premier League.

[BabuYagu]

No, never. It must always be them being bad rather than us being ridiculously good.

The interesting thing is when our tactics work it will make sides look like shite. Because they cannot get the ball down and use it. So if we play well, the opposition will play like shite. The assumption is always we played well because they played shite when the logical thing to assume would be that it is the other way around.

[PoetryInMotion]

The interesting thing is when our tactics work it will make sides look like shite. Because they cannot get the ball down and use it. So if we play well, the opposition will play like shite. The assumption is always we played well because they played shite when the logical thing to assume would be that it is the other way around.

Exactly. This often goes way above the heads of pundits.

[Bob Sacamano]

The interesting thing is when our tactics work it will make sides look like shite. Because they cannot get the ball down and use it. So if we play well, the opposition will play like shite. The assumption is always we played well because they played shite when the logical thing to assume would be that it is the other way around.

I do think there is truth to this. We've made some very decent teams look terrible, and at this point it's hard to say that it's a coincidence. Klopp definitely knows how to disrupt a team's build-up play and make them look very uncomfortable.

As for Gini, he had a great game. It's frustrating, because he has all the ability in the world but he often seems reluctant to show it.

Last night was more of a "Newcastle Gini" performance. Showed great burst in the midfield while carrying the ball and got into dangerous positions on multiple occasions.

I don't have much faith he will replicate that performance with consistency...I think if he could he would've done so by now. But you never know. For him personally, I think the rest of the season is massive. His midfield competition is pretty weak at the moment. If he doesn't make his mark now, it will be even harder in the future with Keita and at least one more CM expected to come in the summer.

[Clayton Bigsby]

Exactly. This often goes way above the heads of pundits.

Goes above our heads as well when we are made to look bad by opposition. It's just the way football is

[nico 8]

I do think there is truth to this. We've made some very decent teams look terrible, and at this point it's hard to say that it's a coincidence. Klopp definitely knows how to disrupt a team's build-up play and make them look very uncomfortable.

As for Gini, he had a great game. It's frustrating, because he has all the ability in the world but he often seems reluctant to show it.

Last night was more of a "Newcastle Gini" performance. Showed great burst in the midfield while carrying the ball and got into dangerous positions on multiple occasions.

I don't have much faith he will replicate that performance with consistency...I think if he could he would've done so by now. But you never know. For him personally, I think the rest of the season is massive. His midfield competition is pretty weak at the moment. If he doesn't make his mark now, it will be even harder in the future with Keita and at least one more CM expected to come in the summer.

I think you underestimate Gini's football intelligence and technical ability. I actually think his play will go up a notch when surrounded with a higher level of players in the midfield. It amazes me the stitch he gets from our own fan base and yet Klopp clearly appreciates what he brings to the team.

[Doc Red]

He played as if it were a home game against a top 4 team.
If only there was a way to channel these sorts of performances from him at a higher rate.

[PoetryInMotion]

Goes above our heads as well when we are made to look bad by opposition. It's just the way football is

I think it's not that general a situation. Not many teams have made us look bad this season, except for maybe Spurs at Wembley. We haven't been downright 'bad' in even most games we dropped points.

However, we're one of the best pressing teams and we have this ability to make decent to good teams struggle to put four passes together. We made City struggle. So it's quite clearly different.

[Bob Sacamano]

I think you underestimate Gini's football intelligence and technical ability. I actually think his play will go up a notch when surrounded with a higher level of players in the midfield. It amazes me the stitch he gets from our own fan base and yet Klopp clearly appreciates what he brings to the team.

I don't at all! Especially not his technical ability. He has better technique than anyone in our midfield (ok that's not saying much), including Lallana (that's saying a bit more!).

But his obvious ability--technical and athletic--has simply not translated into good enough performances. Maybe for a mid-table club, sure. But not if he wants to nail down a starting XI spot for a club with our ambitions.

[JackWard33]

He was good last night - not to the point where it was worth the posts he's gotten here but then you expect that when someone's had a poor season and the bar has been lowered - hopefully he can produce more often in the run in when he's picked.

All 3 of our midfield were effective (Milner the standout - when he's good as an 8 he's very good isn't he) - this isn't backed up by data but I think we've been playing a bit higher with Van Dijk and Karius in the team. Our system works best when we can be compact and we can squeeze the game then our midfield can really affect the game like last night.

[Xanderzone]

His performance against Watford needs to be the blueprint for all his games against the mid table and lower sides.

I like him a lot as a player but often find myself getting frustrated by him not turning up against the lesser profile of sides. Like he was outstanding when we be at City at Anfield but then no-showed a week later against Swansea.

His display against Watford is how he needs to perform more often.

[nico 8]

His performance against Watford needs to be the blueprint for all his games against the mid table and lower sides.

I like him a lot as a player but often find myself getting frustrated by him not turning up against the lesser profile of sides. Like he was outstanding when we be at City at Anfield but then no-showed a week later against Swansea.

His display against Watford is how he needs to perform more often.

Again- there are some who labeled him invisible against Watford and question what he brings to the team. Yet read Klopp's statement in the Echo saying that Gini was excellent in the first but was dead by the 60 minute. Hence the substitution which is understandable as he was off ill for 2 weeks. Clearly Klopp is happy with him as he keeps playing him. He certainly is no Hollywood player but probably is a coach's dream as he is dependable in executing instructions.

[So… Howard Philips]

Again- there are some who labeled him invisible against Watford and question what he brings to the team. Yet read Klopp's statement in the Echo saying that Gini was excellent in the first but was dead by the 60 minute. Hence the substitution which is understandable as he was off ill for 2 weeks. Clearly Klopp is happy with him as he keeps playing him. He certainly is no Hollywood player but probably is a coach's dream as he is dependable in executing instructions.

He's a water carrier, every team needs one.

But not in the disrespectful manner Cantona used to describe Didier Deschamps.

[Giono]

He's a water carrier, every team needs one.

But not in the disrespectful manner Cantona used to describe Didier Deschamps.

I wouldn't take etiquette lessons from Cantona.

[UntouchableLuis]

Thought Gini has a great game vs Watford - he was missed at United IMO.

[Xanderzone]

Thought Gini has a great game vs Watford - he was missed at United IMO.

I think both Henderson and Can play a lot better as the sitting midfielder when Gini is alongside them.

His running power means they can hold their position and not get dragged away.

[Fitzy.]

While I think the general tone around Gini is positive, he's often either damned with feint praise or regarded as ineffective. In truth, he's a facilitator in this side. He's tasked with breaking-up opponents play and then to manipulate the ball in tight spaces to release an attack as quickly as possible. It's a technically difficult job at times but he has the ability and tactical intelligence to pull it off. It's also often pretty unremarkable stuff as he's not assisting or scoring...he may be involved in the move but not getting heavily involved in the climax of it.

I'm not suggesting fans miss what he does, it's just that his specific role is to not be spectacular. I think this affects how Henderson is viewed as well.

In short, when you have fireworks at the top of the pitch, you just need a midfield to act as kindling and nobody ever went to watch a 'kindling display'!.

[nico 8]

While I think the general tone around Gini is positive, he's often either damned with feint praise or regarded as ineffective. In truth, he's a facilitator in this side. He's tasked with breaking-up opponents play and then to manipulate the ball in tight spaces to release an attack as quickly as possible. It's a technically difficult job at times but he has the ability and tactical intelligence to pull it off. It's also often pretty unremarkable stuff as he's not assisting or scoring...he may be involved in the move but not getting heavily involved in the climax of it.

I'm not suggesting fans miss what he does, it's just that his specific role is to not be spectacular. I think this affects how Henderson is viewed as well.

In short, when you have fireworks at the top of the pitch, you just need a midfield to act as kindling and nobody ever went to watch a 'kindling display'!.

Totally agree except for one aspect. I think fans do miss what he does and have an altogether unrealistic expectation of him as a player and his role in the team. With Keita coming in next year, there is an expectation that he will be a squad player at best and unlikely start many games. I think that he will be starting a lot more games than people think.

[RedSince86]

I hope he starts in the City games.

We always see the best of Gini in the big games.

[Dim Glas]

While I think the general tone around Gini is positive, he's often either damned with feint praise or regarded as ineffective. In truth, he's a facilitator in this side. He's tasked with breaking-up opponents play and then to manipulate the ball in tight spaces to release an attack as quickly as possible. It's a technically difficult job at times but he has the ability and tactical intelligence to pull it off. It's also often pretty unremarkable stuff as he's not assisting or scoring...he may be involved in the move but not getting heavily involved in the climax of it.

I'm not suggesting fans miss what he does, it's just that his specific role is to not be spectacular. I think this affects how Henderson is viewed as well.

In short, when you have fireworks at the top of the pitch, you just need a midfield to act as kindling and nobody ever went to watch a 'kindling display'!.

Totally agree except for one aspect. I think fans do miss what he does and have an altogether unrealistic expectation of him as a player and his role in the team. With Keita coming in next year, there is an expectation that he will be a squad player at best and unlikely start many games. I think that he will be starting a lot more games than people think.

Agree with most of that Fitzy, but also, I think I lean towards nico's point about some having unrealistic expectations. How many times did we hear last season about goal scoring totals with him, it was constant and boring, people (not just fans, but media too) referencing back to his season at Newcastle. Without an ounce of thought for what position he plays.

Anyway, like Red said above, I hope he plays vs City too. He was missed vs United. Glad to see him back.

[Fitzy.]

Totally agree except for one aspect. I think fans do miss what he does and have an altogether unrealistic expectation of him as a player and his role in the team. With Keita coming in next year, there is an expectation that he will be a squad player at best and unlikely start many games. I think that he will be starting a lot more games than people think.

Agree with most of that Fitzy, but also, I think I lean towards nico's point about some having unrealistic expectations. How many times did we hear last season about goal scoring totals with him, it was constant and boring, people (not just fans, but media too) referencing back to his season at Newcastle. Without an ounce of thought for what position he plays.

Anyway, like Red said above, I hope he plays vs City too. He was missed vs United. Glad to see him back.

You're possibly both right - I was just conscious that I could come across a bit know-it-all if I suggest I am seeing things others don't.

Expectations are an issue. In such a spectacular football team there has become an absurd narrative amongst some fans that sees players criticised for not being spectacular. In the same way Mane can get stick when he doesn't score, as if scoring is the only thing worthy of praise.

[PoetryInMotion]

Totally agree with the sentiments of the last couple of posts.

[jepovic]

It's not that he doesn't score, but he doesn't do much of anything. Assists, key passes, interceptions, tackles-  he's low on all stats. Even the number of passes is very low, for someone who's allegedly a key cog in the machinery.
He has already been demoted to a squad player this winter, and the team has done well anyway.
For me, the most troubling aspect is how he has disappeared I games when we have needed him the most.

Late edit: Added some numbers,  Can vs Gini per 90 min:
Passes: 66 vs 44
Key passes 0.90 vs 0.65
Assists 0.17 vs 0.05
Goals 0.13 vs 0.05
Tackles won 2.32 vs 0.55
Interceptions 1.33 vs 1.11

[Giono]

You're possibly both right - I was just conscious that I could come across a bit know-it-all if I suggest I am seeing things others don't.

Expectations are an issue. In such a spectacular football team there has become an absurd narrative amongst some fans that sees players criticised for not being spectacular. In the same way Mane can get stick when he doesn't score, as if scoring is the only thing worthy of praise.

Mané has actually scored more this season than last. It just goes to show your point about expectations.

[Giono]

It's not that he doesn't score, but he doesn't do much of anything. Assists, key passes, interceptions, tackles-  he's low on all stats. Even the number of passes is very low, for someone who's allegedly a key cog in the machinery.
He has already been demoted to a squad player this winter, and the team has done well anyway.
For me, the most troubling aspect is how he has disappeared I games when we have needed him the most.

Demoted? 38 appearances this season is not being demoted. There is more competition in midfield with Henderson and Lallana returning to health, with the fresh Milner getting matches and with Ox being bought. That’s depth.

And recently...he’s been on the crapper more than the pitch. He looks like he has lot some weight. He wasn’t available to play for several weeks.

[JackWard33]

It's not that he doesn't score, but he doesn't do much of anything. Assists, key passes, interceptions, tackles-  he's low on all stats. Even the number of passes is very low, for someone who's allegedly a key cog in the machinery.
He has already been demoted to a squad player this winter, and the team has done well anyway.
For me, the most troubling aspect is how he has disappeared I games when we have needed him the most.

Late edit: Added some numbers,  Can vs Gini per 90 min:
Passes: 66 vs 44
Key passes 0.90 vs 0.65
Assists 0.17 vs 0.05
Goals 0.13 vs 0.05
Tackles won 2.32 vs 0.55
Interceptions 1.33 vs 1.11

Extraordinary - the Ghost by the numbers!
You can't measure everything with top line stats but fuck me its hard to do that little.
If Henderson or Can did as little as him this thread would be 300 pages of vitriol!!!!

Lucky for Gini he's got a great smile and he's technically good / easy on the eye and Babu and others have thought of 4 other things he allegedly does that can't be measured (you need Egon Spenglers PKE meter presumably.... you know... cos he's a ghost) 
Glad he'll be a squad player next season

[nico 8]

It's not that he doesn't score, but he doesn't do much of anything. Assists, key passes, interceptions, tackles-  he's low on all stats. Even the number of passes is very low, for someone who's allegedly a key cog in the machinery.
He has already been demoted to a squad player this winter, and the team has done well anyway.
For me, the most troubling aspect is how he has disappeared I games when we have needed him the most.

Late edit: Added some numbers,  Can vs Gini per 90 min:
Passes: 66 vs 44
Key passes 0.90 vs 0.65
Assists 0.17 vs 0.05
Goals 0.13 vs 0.05
Tackles won 2.32 vs 0.55
Interceptions 1.33 vs 1.11

You might want to read Babyugu's last post at 6.31.43pm in the Team Analysis: Jurgen Klopp's Liverpool Tactics page- especially his last paragraph.

Extraordinary - the Ghost by the numbers!
You can't measure everything with top line stats but fuck me its hard to do that little.
If Henderson or Can did as little as him this thread would be 300 pages of vitriol!!!!

Lucky for Gini he's got a great smile and he's technically good / easy on the eye and Babu and others have thought of 4 other things he allegedly does that can't be measured (you need Egon Spenglers PKE meter presumably.... you know... cos he's a ghost) 
Glad he'll be a squad player next season

I see that same post which was in fact in response to your post has not in any way shifted your approach or openness to accepting a different idea or understanding of the game. So for you- if the stats are poor, he must have had a poor game. Yet Klopp himself described his performance as excellent. The best coaches in the world concede that they never stop learning and will always be open to other ideas and approaches. You are clearly not open to another view or totally dismissive of other views as you see football in a way that is solely backed up by data. As was pointed out to you, most of the data capturing and analysis is done in relation to the ball and none or limited analysis is done when not in possession.
Putting what I have posted aside and in all seriousness, what is your expectation of Gini? What do you think his role in the team is?   and which aspect of his game does he need to improve on ?
Finally, as I stated above in a different post above- the expectation next year is that at best Gini will be a squad player- what if he remains a first choice( whichever way that is defined in view of the fact that the game is really about squad rotation with the exception in certain key positions and a handful of obvious first team players)?

[BabuYagu]

Extraordinary - the Ghost by the numbers!
You can't measure everything with top line stats but fuck me its hard to do that little.
If Henderson or Can did as little as him this thread would be 300 pages of vitriol!!!!

Lucky for Gini he's got a great smile and he's technically good / easy on the eye and Babu and others have thought of 4 other things he allegedly does that can't be measured (you need Egon Spenglers PKE meter presumably.... you know... cos he's a ghost) 
Glad he'll be a squad player next season

I really should avoid your trolling and leave you to wallow in your passive aggression and almost narcissistic need for attention and conflict but, this time, I will indulge you...

Pretty clear I was poking fun no ? Oh well each his own. I liked your attempts at insults though they were good.

Weren't insults Jack. When almost every message you make to someone is antagonistic, that is trolling. Many of them are passive aggressive, as I highlighted to you in one of the previous recently. Plus you do appear to have a problem in getting into fights online to the extent your wife has asked you to work on it. I think when you look at all of that combined, it does look a lot like an almost narcissistic need for attention and conflict, no?

Remember that conversation Jack? Well when you drop my name into a conversation in such a manner that I am not even involved in, that is literally the definition of trolling.
"make a deliberately offensive or provocative online post with the aim of upsetting someone or eliciting an angry response from them."
When your wife points out that you have issues with creating conflict online, you should listen. Seriously. Especially when you just go around baiting someone on almost a daily basis. It points to significant problems. Seek help.

[newterp]

He gave a kind of funny interview yesterday telling people that there are other people on the team apart from the the attack. Also that he would vote for DeBruyne over Salah for player of the Year.

[nico 8]

Demoted? 38 appearances this season is not being demoted. There is more competition in midfield with Henderson and Lallana returning to health, with the fresh Milner getting matches and with Ox being bought. That’s depth.

And recently...he’s been on the crapper more than the pitch. He looks like he has lot some weight. He wasn’t available to play for several weeks.

38 appearances  you say and Salah has had 41. Clearly a squad player that Klopp saves for the big games only as Gini cannot play against low block teams.

[Djimi Smicer34]

He gave a kind of funny interview yesterday telling people that there are other people on the team apart from the the attack. Also that he would vote for DeBruyne over Salah for player of the Year.

He's not allowed to vote for Salah - you can't vote for team-mates.

[nico 8]

Remember that conversation Jack? Well when you drop my name into a conversation in such a manner that I am not even involved in, that is literally the definition of trolling.
"make a deliberately offensive or provocative online post with the aim of upsetting someone or eliciting an angry response from them."
When your wife points out that you have issues with creating conflict online, you should listen. Seriously. Especially when you just go around baiting someone on almost a daily basis. It points to significant problems. Seek help.

Or he merely feels threatened or inferior to your knowledge of the game that he needs to attack or disprove any opinion you may put forward. As difficult as it may seem, take it as a compliment.

[nico 8]

He gave a kind of funny interview yesterday telling people that there are other people on the team apart from the the attack. Also that he would vote for DeBruyne over Salah for player of the Year.

Read the transcribed version of the interview and seemed a rather awkward one in the sense that it felt that he had to push his performance and that of his co- midfielders. Feeling neglected even though I believe that Klopp and his team show their appreciation even though it the front three that get the plaudits. This will always remain the position.

[JackWard33]

Or he merely feels threatened or inferior to your knowledge of the game that he needs to attack or disprove any opinion you may put forward. As difficult as it may seem, take it as a compliment.

Hah I think we both know its not that ....he definitely doesn't like being disagreed with that's true. It does make it harder not to tease... I'll try and be a better person.
I do find his opinion and some other posters ...and some lfc pundits... on Wijnaldam fascinating - he gets a pass for all his inadequacies and talked up if he does anything remotely decent.

Joking aside its perfectly possible Gini is good at some things top line statistics don't pick up (controlling areas on the pitch defensively, breaking the lines offensively etc) - its also possible he's not good at these things... its hard to prove without more advanced metrics.
What we do know is that the top line numbers back up the eye test - he doesn't affect games enough at this level with or without the ball.

[JackWard33]

Remember that conversation Jack? Well when you drop my name into a conversation in such a manner that I am not even involved in, that is literally the definition of trolling.
"make a deliberately offensive or provocative online post with the aim of upsetting someone or eliciting an angry response from them."
When your wife points out that you have issues with creating conflict online, you should listen. Seriously. Especially when you just go around baiting someone on almost a daily basis. It points to significant problems. Seek help.

Babu.... um.... I don't really have a wife

Also the Egon Spengler PKE joke deserved more love ...

[nico 8]

Hah I think we both know its not that ....he definitely doesn't like being disagreed with that's true. It does make it harder not to tease... I'll try and be a better person.
I do find his opinion and some other posters ...and some lfc pundits... on Wijnaldam fascinating - he gets a pass for all his inadequacies and talked up if he does anything remotely decent.

Joking aside its perfectly possible Gini is good at some things top line statistics don't pick up (controlling areas on the pitch defensively, breaking the lines offensively etc) - its also possible he's not good at these things... its hard to prove without more advanced metrics.
What we do know is that the top line numbers back up the eye test - he doesn't affect games enough at this level with or without the ball.

Your comments are noted. You still, however, appear to be evasive in not answering my question. What is your expectation of him and what role does he play in the team?
Furthermore, I don't believe he gets a free pass because of his smile. In fact he has been 3rd or 4th in line of being the scapegoat. If anything, you merely need to look at the love fest of the performances of Robertson to see how blinded fans are to his weaknesses. Is he placed on a pedestal because their expectation of him was initially low??