Topic: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"

[Circa1892]

Corbyns just given a election speech. talked about Labours Brexit stance.
Sky political commentator was asked his opinion on his speech. Corbyns saying he will get a deal in 6 months and put it to the people with the option to remain, he thinks Corbyn will support the Labour deal to leave the EU.

He will. Because he's fucking shit.

[TepidT2O]

Corbyns just given a election speech. talked about Labours Brexit stance.
Sky political commentator was asked his opinion on his speech. Corbyns saying he will get a deal in 6 months and put it to the people with the option to remain, he thinks Corbyn will support the Labour deal to leave the EU.

Why would you get a deal and then vote against it?

Would be genuinely absurd

[Dr. Beaker]

I suppose the best deal you can get could still be shite (in fact we all know it must be) and then in that case you would vote against it.

[vagabond]

But parties with socialist leaders historically dont get elected in this country...

That may well be the case and may be a reason to vote tactically to stop the tories. I was just talking about the policies I support.

[oldfordie]

Why would you get a deal and then vote against it?

Would be genuinely absurd

Depends how you look at it, there has to be at least 2 questions on the referendum Ballot slip. do you want a disastrous no deal v remain question or a negotiated deal v remain.
Labour could argue they have got the best deal possible and it's up to the people to decide if they want it but they still believe we have the best deal already as members of the EU.

[Jiminy Cricket]

I find myself in an ethical quandary, and would actually appreciate advice from some of the posters here that I consider worthy of respect.

I have always believed that ex-patriates (particularly rich ones) should not vote in UK elections. It seems disingenuous to influence a country which one has decided to leave, especially in terms of tax policy and so forth.

For this election, I find myself a rich ex-pat, but one who was a member of the Labour party for near-on forty years and only ever voted for Labour policies (but never blindly - the 80's were a struggle). I left for NZ because of the Leave vote and my analysis of where the country would fall - as well as my main business being reliant on EU membership. I am fully involved in NZ politics (a shiny new member of the Labour party here) and a sometime advisor to government as I was to the recent Labour government in the UK.

This is possibly the most important vote for the future of the UK in living memory. My place of registration has a Labour MP, not marginal but probably vulnerable. He is a personal friend, a strong Remainer and represents an outlier Remain constituency. Despite being a 'Blairite' he has supported the Corbyn leadership loyally, and is a good man.

On the other hand, I cannot in all conscience vote for the current Labour party as I believe Corbyn as Prime Minister would be an unmitigated disaster, and the stance of the Party on Brexit is reprehensible. (Anti-semitism is a huge concern for me personally). I believe Corbyn and his advisors would embrace Brexit in their own way and not Remain, and thus a vote for Labour is a vote for Brexit. I do not think Corbyn's version of Labour is electable, and even if it was, the demands of government would likely paralyse their efforts to be remotely progressive - especially amongst the economic chaos of whatever a Lexit might look like.

I don't think I should vote, as I am not and am not likely to be, a British citizen that has to face the consequences. Next year, I will be voting Labour in my adopted home of New Zealand, because that affects my future.

Yet by not exercising the franchise that is still mine by law, I may be facilitating terrible problems for the country I still love and the people left behind that don't have my choices.  And if I do vote, do I vote Labour to support my friend despite my severe reservations of what that vote would entail and indicate at the macro-scale. Or do I cast a vote for the LDs as a Revoke party in alignment with my strong view (that may secure the seat for them, but very unlikely, more probably give the seat to a Tory as it was Conservative before 1997). Or waste a vote for the Greens in some sort of deluded personal symbolism that validates my belief one should always exercise the hard-won franchise.

I am genuinely conflicted.

You know, I wasn't sure what I might suggest - I too have always been against 'ex-pats' retaining the franchise, I live abroad, and am also similarly conflicted - but there is a false dilemma contained within your last paragraph: it is a legal right which extends to all those in similar circumstances to you. By not voting, you provide undue weight to others who have emigrated and who might vote the other way to you in the election. Election rules are full of unfairness (FPTP); we all are constrained by the rules. All we can do work as best we can within the framewark as currently constructed. I think it is OK and defensible for you to vote in the upcoming GE.

[Cpt_Reina]

I think Cpt Reina is pointing out that, yes you maybe right in everything you said, lets throw some more into that fire too, yet it's still galaxys away from 5 more years of tory rule, absolute galaxys. Then the brexit thing, yes Corbyn is being a c*nt, he will continue to be a c*nt, but its at least an offer of a referendum vs torys again and an almost definite exit. Or lib dems who will not get enough seats to revoke, so it at best will be them and torys and a ref at a massive push. So labour and a ref or ref plus lib dems and tory rule.

So I agree with what he says wholeheartedly. Labour are dogshit but I'd rather them a million times over than tory rule again. If they get put back in after all the damage they have done they will bulldoze the shit out of everything they can. All that aside I'll be voting tactically to keep them out no matter what.

This is exactly what i'm getting at.

Those misgivings around nationalisation of services etc, they can be legitimate concerns and they're fair enough.

But are they really such terrible and horrible policies that you'd risk taking another Tory coalition to avoid them? Another few years like the last 10?

Surely not.

[Jiminy Cricket]

I think it's absolutely ''right'', when the events I want to influence could directly impact my ability to live and work in my current country of residence.

True. But this does not really apply to Banquo's situation.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Technically it won't be a Winter Election as Winter doesn't start until 21st December.

Maybe it's time online voting was made available so "turnout" becomes less of an issue.

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

Not really. There are two generally accepted versions of the seasons:

https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/weather/learn-about/weather/seasons/summer/when-does-summer-start

American's almost exclusively use the astronomical calendar (I always found it bit weird when I lived there). Brits almost always utilise the meteorological calendar. Certainly, I've never thought of (all of) December as anything but winter.

[Henry Gale]

Not really. There are two generally accepted versions of the seasons:

https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/weather/learn-about/weather/seasons/summer/when-does-summer-start

American's almost exclusively use the astronomical calendar (I always found it bit weird when I lived there). Brits almost always utilise the meteorological calendar. Certainly, I've never thought of (all of) December as anything but winter.

Are we going to have voting booths in America? 

[Jiminy Cricket]

Are we going to have voting booths in America? 

I just mention the US because until I lived there, I never witnessed anyone base the start and ends of the seasons based upon the dates of solstices and equinoxes. (Excluding my US wife) Nor since, until reddebs mentioned it. It just seems a weird way to define the seasons.

[Jiminy Cricket]

You do realise that has just listed the number of times Corbyn has failed right? Not succeeded or won but failed. Hes a failure and a danger, under him a vote for Labour is a vote for Brexit

Funny. I did not even bother reading that list when Trada posted it. Because - you know - Trada.

[oldfordie]

 

Monster Crash with Jacob Rees-Mogg and Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson
https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/1189853837273817089

[cloggypop]

Important not to infer likely voting in 2019 too directly from the 2017 result.

The Lib Dems are polling 2-3 times higher now than they were then. Many seats will return to form as Tory-Lib Dem battles. Look at that constituency poll in north east Somerset as an example.

You might want to check the small print on that

[BoRed]

You might want to check the small print on that

[gazzalfc]

Mad how it's the 31st October 2019, we're not leaving the EU and there aren't riots on the streets, angry backlashes and a need for increased police presence on the streets??

[rafathegaffa83]

Mad how it's the 31st October 2019, we're not leaving the EU and there aren't riots on the streets, angry backlashes and a need for increased police presence on the streets??

Does the country explode at 11:59pm? And is it outside Mark Francois' house?

[rob1966]

Monster Crash with Jacob Rees-Mogg and Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson
https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/1189853837273817089

Fuck, I was hoping to see a car upside down in a ditch and a mortuary van.

[redmark]

I'm with you in spirit, but it's hard to look beyond the brexit stuff. It's not just one issue amongst others, it is the issue.

Two points: firstly, though Corbyn is the party leader and gets more TV time than the rest, he does not set party policy alone. Any scenario which leads to a Labour led/influenced government and a possible second referendum would be led by party policy, not Corbyn. He's lost plenty of internal party disagreements in the last couple of years.

Secondly - and this applies to antisemitism concerns too, I think - Jeremy Corbyn does not get into No 10 anyway. While the Labour membership may elect him repeatedly, the PM is a result of who can command a majority of MPs. Lib Dems won't stomach Corbyn as PM - and if it comes down to it, half his own MPs won't either.

[TepidT2O]

Two points: firstly, though Corbyn is the party leader and gets more TV time than the rest, he does not set party policy alone. Any scenario which leads to a Labour led/influenced government and a possible second referendum would be led by party policy, not Corbyn. He's lost plenty of internal party disagreements in the last couple of years.

Secondly - and this applies to antisemitism concerns too, I think - Jeremy Corbyn does not get into No 10 anyway. While the Labour membership may elect him repeatedly, the PM is a result of who can command a majority of MPs. Lib Dems won't stomach Corbyn as PM - and if it comes down to it, half his own MPs won't either.

Seamus Milne sets party policy.

[redmark]

Seamus Milne sets party policy.

No he doesn't Tepid. He may set the leader's PR. But they both get knocked back on policy fairly regularly. If they did, there would be no commitment to a referendum on a Labour deal - both in policy, and in what Corbyn says when asked on that policy. It's a convoluted mess of a position to articulate to the electorate versus 'Get Brexit Done' or 'Revoke'. But it's a relatively honest one, given where the party is (and the mistakes that got them there).
 

[BoRed]

Two points: firstly, though Corbyn is the party leader and gets more TV time than the rest, he does not set party policy alone. Any scenario which leads to a Labour led/influenced government and a possible second referendum would be led by party policy, not Corbyn. He's lost plenty of internal party disagreements in the last couple of years.

Secondly - and this applies to antisemitism concerns too, I think - Jeremy Corbyn does not get into No 10 anyway. While the Labour membership may elect him repeatedly, the PM is a result of who can command a majority of MPs. Lib Dems won't stomach Corbyn as PM - and if it comes down to it, half his own MPs won't either.

This is an important point. We've had years of Corbyn this, Corbyn that. Corbyn is useless, Corbyn is incompetent. Corbyn is evil, Corbyn is dangerous. People quitting Labour in fear of the danger posed by Corbyn becoming PM. Lib Dems saying rather a no deal Brexit than Corbyn as PM.

But Corbyn is not PM. He never has been and never will be.

Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson is PM. Perhaps it's time to stop barking up the wrong tree.

[TepidT2O]

No he doesn't Tepid. He may set the leader's PR. But they both get knocked back on policy fairly regularly. If they did, there would be no commitment to a referendum on a Labour deal - both in policy, and in what Corbyn says when asked on that policy. It's a convoluted mess of a position to articulate to the electorate versus 'Get Brexit Done' or 'Revoke'. But it's a relatively honest one, given where the party is (and the mistakes that got them there).
 

It was a slightly throw away comment..,

However, he does have significant control.

With Milne and Cummings it’s like an ideological ‘who’s the biggest most uncaring c*nt’ competition.

The country would be far better off if both took up ditch diving

[TepidT2O]

This is an important point. We've had years of Corbyn this, Corbyn that. Corbyn is useless, Corbyn is incompetent. Corbyn is evil, Corbyn is dangerous. People quitting Labour in fear of the danger posed by Corbyn becoming PM. Lib Dems saying rather a no deal Brexit than Corbyn as PM.

But Corbyn is not PM. He never has been and never will be.

Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson is PM. Perhaps it's time to stop barking up the wrong tree.

Is there not a correlation here?

Johnson is only PM because of the complete shitness of Corbyn.  That IS the tree.

Labour has to have a palatable leader next. It cannot just rely on people voting for them just because they’re not the Tories.

This will be four elections in a row that labour has lost.

Maybe there’s something to learn from that?

[goalrushatgoodison]

Why would you get a deal and then vote against it?

Would be genuinely absurd

It would. Dominic Raab levels of absurd.

[Dr. Beaker]

It was a slightly throw away comment..,

However, he does have significant control.

With Milne and Cummings it’s like an ideological ‘who’s the biggest most uncaring c*nt’ competition.

The country would be far better off if both took up ditch diving

And now we are in the situation, in both cases, where the arsehole has been wagging the dog for sufficient time to ensure that the status quo ante will never return. There are still some tectonic plates yet to fall into place but the old days are gone forever.

[BoRed]

Is there not a correlation here?

Johnson is only PM because of the complete shitness of Corbyn.  That IS the tree.

Labour has to have a palatable leader next.

I agree, but they're not about to change their leader in the next six weeks, so it's still the wrong tree to be barking up in the weeks leading up to a general election.

[Jiminy Cricket]

I don't think we should over egg the campaign ran by Corbyn.  Teresa May ran perhaps the worst campaign I can ever remember (arguably even worse than Gordon Brown) and yet still picked up 55 more seats than Corbyn.  I appreciate the popular vote was much closer than that but if he couldn't topple "weak and wobbly" May then he's hardly a master campaigner.

Having said all that, nothing would please me more than a repeat performance of Labour over-achieving.  Anything but a Tory majority.

This.

[TSC]

The fact that trump has waded in via Frottage to attempt to give corbyn a kicking will probably be lapped up by the lunatic fringe on the far right.  On the other hand hopefully it scares any ditherers away from the tories.

Trump would be better served focusing on his impeachment process instead of butting into the election affairs of a foreign country.

[Dr. Beaker]

 Falange must have done deal with Johnson. Bit of dirty work here and there for a safe seat maybe.

[Alan_X]

Corbyns just given a election speech. talked about Labours Brexit stance.
Sky political commentator was asked his opinion on his speech. Corbyns saying he will get a deal in 6 months and put it to the people with the option to remain, he thinks Corbyn will support the Labour deal to leave the EU.

He’s attacking the Lib Dems for campaigning to revoke saying it’s undemocratic. Anyone dumb enough to believe that Corbyn won’t campaign for Brexit/Lexit if Labour wins needs a kick up the bracket.

If you don’t want the Tories to be able to sell off the NHS in a trade deal then STAY IN THE FUCKING EU.

Labour Brexit is Brexit.

By equivocating on Brexit Corbyn has managed to turn away Labour Leavers and more significantly Labour Remainers who voted Labour in 2017 but will vote Lib Dem or Green this time round.

As for the other arguments on here.

Corbyn’s Labour Party has a problem with structural anti-semitism. If you defend it you’re part of the problem.

Corbyn is massively disliked/distrusted by voters. If the Labour Party insists on voting for a useless prick as Leader it’s no good saying the country has to vote for him to keep the Tories out. And replacing him with even more useless politicians like Long-Bailey or Pidcock isn’t going to make them more electable.

Corbyn’s Labour has taken the piss with my vote. I want change. I’d prefer a competent Labour Party but that seems to be a vain hope now. I think we could be fucked for decades.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Monster Crash with Jacob Rees-Mogg and Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson
https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/1189853837273817089

Cheers for posting that mate. Really cheered me up

[Alan_X]

I agree, but they're not about to change their leader in the next six weeks, so it's still the wrong tree to be barking up in the weeks leading up to a general election.

And when is the right time?

Many of us said Corbyn would be a disaster when he was elected leader.

‘Get behind him - the enemy is the Tory Party’

He fucks up the referendum campaign...

‘Get behind him, he’s only representing what many people think...  the enemy is the Tory Party...’

He loses the 2017 General Election against the Maybot.

‘Get behind him, look how far behind he was... they said he’d be wiped out so it’s really a victory... the enemy is the Tory Party. Keep the faith’

He refuses to campaign for Remain despite all the evidence of corruption, lies and the damage Brexit will do and keeps talking about some bullshit ‘Brexit for jobs...’

‘Get behind him, he’s just waiting for the Tories to melt down. They’ll self destruct and he’ll step in. The real enemy is the Tory Party and you don’t do anything when your enemy is self destructing...’

He comes up with a ridiculous plan to win an election, renegotiate a deal in six months (the EU extension is Jan 31st) then have a referendum between the new deal and Remain. But they won’t talk about Brexit during the election or say which side Labour would campaign for...

‘Get behind him, this election (which is clearly being fought over Brexit) won’t be about Brexit. What about renationalising the Post Office? The Tory Party is the real enemy...’

If Corbyn’s Labour wins or even loses by a small enough margin he’ll stick around like shit on a blanket. If he goes we’ll have more of the same.

There’s no good time for this. Labour needs a clear out or another party needs to take up the reins of progressive politics.

The Tory Party is the real enemy. And it is inexcusable that the Labour Party has utterly failed at a time when the Tories should have been in meltdown, and had been complicit in the greatest political crisis in the UK since the Second World War.

I find it incredible that for the second time in my life, the Labour Party’s left has vacated the heart of British politics and given right wing Tories the centre stage.

[oldfordie]

Cheers for posting that mate. Really cheered me up

JRM as Dracula being repelled by a EU flag
Johnson as Frankenstein, Cummings as Dracula, brilliant.

[jason67]

It's the best option that we have because it's the only system we have.

No offence, but if you're sitting this one out you are part of the problem.

So let me ask you this Alan.. Are you happy with politics at the moment? Or should I say politicians?

You run a business, would you let any of your staff get away with what these clowns are doing?

As for your second point I see you as part as the problem, whatever you think about me you empower these dickheads to continue to do what they do (which if you haven't realised by now is to look after themselves).

They must be laughing their tits off, 50k+ a year and all they have to do is lie to keep the people that elsct them happy.

[oldfordie]

He’s attacking the Lib Dems for campaigning to revoke saying it’s undemocratic. Anyone dumb enough to believe that Corbyn won’t campaign for Brexit/Lexit if Labour wins needs a kick up the bracket.

If you don’t want the Tories to be able to sell off the NHS in a trade deal then STAY IN THE FUCKING EU.

Labour Brexit is Brexit.

By equivocating on Brexit Corbyn has managed to turn away Labour Leavers and more significantly Labour Remainers who voted Labour in 2017 but will vote Lib Dem or Green this time round.

As for the other arguments on here.

Corbyn’s Labour Party has a problem with structural anti-semitism. If you defend it you’re part of the problem.

Corbyn is massively disliked/distrusted by voters. If the Labour Party insists on voting for a useless prick as Leader it’s no good saying the country has to vote for him to keep the Tories out. And replacing him with even more useless politicians like Long-Bailey or Pidcock isn’t going to make them more electable.

Corbyn’s Labour has taken the piss with my vote. I want change. I’d prefer a competent Labour Party but that seems to be a vain hope now. I think we could be fucked for decades.

If the Tories win a majority then am afraid we are f... even if Corbyn +co go.
The damage will be done, leaving the EU with a nutty hard right Tory party. less talented MPs to hold them to account.

[Jiminy Cricket]

So let me ask you this Alan.. Are you happy with politics at the moment? Or should I say politicians?

You run a business, would you let any of your staff get away with what these clowns are doing?

As for your second point I see you as part as the problem, whatever you think about me you empower these dickheads to continue to do what they do (which if you haven't realised by now is to look after themselves).

They must be laughing their tits off, 50k+ a year and all they have to do is lie to keep the people that elsct them happy.

Jason. I understand that you feel the system is terrible/corrupt/whatever. But people deciding to simply sit out will have absolutely zero effect. The only possible way to have any influence upon the system is to be involved. No politician, and no voter will give a toss about your decision to abstain. That's just the reality of the situation.

[Alan_X]

If the Tories win a majority then am afraid we are f... even if Corbyn +co go.
The damage will be done, leaving the EU with a nutty hard right Tory party. less talented MPs to hold them to account.

And as many of us have been saying for years now - Corbyn is a free pass for the Tories. He had his best chance against May and managed to win 50 less seats than her.

A vote for Corbyn is a vote for Brexit.

A vote for Corbyn strengthens his hold over the party and pretty much guarantees Tory government as long as he’s leader.

Johnson is hugely overrated and won’t be great in this campaign. He has skeletons in his closet and has questionable opinions on many subjects. I still think he’ll win fairly comfortably.

[TSC]

Some traditional labour voters (on here but likely resonates beyond too) will have various issues with the current party. The elephant in the room for me is the apparent anti-semitism and the inability or unwillingness to deal with it.

However the current Tory party, led by the ERG and a bunch of sycophants, seemingly overseen by the politically unknown and unelected Cummings, coupled with their Brexit ‘deal’, is by far the biggest danger. 

[TepidT2O]

Still in the EU......