Topic: The Job

[Stussy]

Some very good points but still seems like an apologist's post on behalf of Rafa.

Rafa doesn't need any apologists, although some people need to apologise.

And in any case, it does not read anything like any kind of polemic for Benitez, if you think a plainly written piece of excellence like that can be reduced to a screed as you suggest, you need help.


++++

Excellent post E2K mate, I could feel my heart rising as I read through it.

The truth of the matter is that our self-esteem has been hit because of the accumulated distress of the last three years, the dissapointment of last season, and the catastrophe of this season (so far).

We need to shake off this depression and take this positive perspective you've described.

[The Jackal]

Are we on a serach for a manager then?

I bloody well hope so..

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

Delusional.

Thanks very much for that erudite analysis, backed as it is with counterpoints, rebuttals and well argued evidence.

[stockdam]

We need a manager who can get the very best out of decent (not great) players.

Here's our 1981 team that won the European Cup.

Clemence, Neal, Thompson (capt), Hansen, A.Kennedy, Lee, McDermott, R.Kennedy, Souness , D. Johnson, Dalglish (Case)


It's a solid team but it's not full of £50M players (in today's terms). The back 4 were solid and the keeper was top notch. The midfield had a blend of skill and bite and were better going forwards - they weren't defensive midfielders. David Johnson wasn't in the same class as Rush or Fowler. Kenny was Kenny.

Look at the subs bench:


Jimmy Case
Steve Ogrizovic (Keeper)      
Colin Irwin      
Richard Money      
Howard Gayle

Is that a strong bench? Jimmy Case was a solid but not spectacular midfielder (that's not to say that he wasn't a good player).

Who was the Manager? Bob!

So our manager was able to build a fantastic team out of good but not great players. Individually the players were not all "world class" but they had one thing........belief. They could pass and they ran and ran for each other.

Our current team isn't that far behind and certainly isn't relegation material.
None of our past great teams were blessed with superstars. All were good players with a couple of gems thrown in. They were able to put pressure on the opposition through moving the ball quickly and picking the right pass.   
Manager:
 Bob Paisley

[RedMac]

"with key players like Torres and Aquilani missing large portions of the season"

I agree with most of that mate, but when was Aquilani ever a key player, grasping at straws with that one i feel

Top most though 

[lukeb1981]

It is time to stop this rot, before it is too late(Blackburn gave him till christmas and they never recovered)before anybody thinks we have too much quality to go down, we also had the quality to be beat every team we played so far and we havn't been able to give them a game never mind beat them

[Roger Federer]

He and yorkykopite are the best writers on RAWK by a country mile.

I agree, I always look out for their posts, even if I don't agree all the time. Like I don't with everything in this one, but the main point still stands. We're not as poor as made out to be, should definately not be in the relegation zone, and if the next manager makes the right decisions (or Roy changes his ways), we should improve drastically.

[silver 5 star]

Thanks very much for that erudite analysis, backed as it is with counterpoints, rebuttals and well argued evidence.

THIS though:
As supporters, we have to admit - all of us - that we were wrong to panic over a 7th place finish - a finish that resulted in 5m less quid in prize money than coming top. We tilted. We threw the book at the whole system, and blamed Rafa. Folks like yourself are still clinging to reasons that weren't even valid at the time, never mind now, second from bottom.


I beg to differ, personally never had a panic attack over finishing 7th  - was angry about it as we'd finished 2nd the year before but my anger was 30% for Rafa who I felt had been dragged into the politics too much and 70% for the idiot carpetbagger owners who should have spent whatever it took in the summer to go from 2nd to first.

Rafa plus support and decent ca$h = success.

I thought Rafa had made mistakes but no way should he have left the club.

Hodgson had been talking like we are Portsmouth - he's just making excuses for himself.

"The Job" now that G and H have gone and the burden of debt with them is once again one of the best jobs about. Leaving it to Hodgson is suicide for the club at the very time life is being breathed back in.

[has gone odd]

agree with nearly every word. bemused at ex players giving support for hodgson when he clearly isnt working at all, in any way shape or form.

rafa was clearly hampered by key injuries and we didnt have the funds to plug the gaps. rafa also made some rotten signings which he would surely hold his hands up to and that didnt help our position at all last season.

however, rafa is gone now and we now have to start again. it doesnt need bulldozing down or bombing, there is actually a good platform here atm which i completely agree.

the fact our current manager cannot steady the ship (as he was employed to do) means he has failed and as others have said, our next manager is utterly crucial to the future of our club. kenny has vast experience of managing and moreso he understands our club as well as anyone. if he isnt permanent he is the perfect choice to steady the ship and should have been appointed from the start. it gives us time to really do our homework and find the most suitable canditate.

[RedMarko]

Cracking post.

What it really brought home to me is a simple truth that I've been trying to get into my own head for some time.

I am not comfortable with looking for a manager to be sacked. Never have been. Fact is, that I have been wondering, if it happened, who I would like to see him replaced with. My heart has been saying 'Rafa' to this for some time now, but my head has been stopping me.

This article screamed why.

It is not necessarily Rafa that is required. If fact, given the water under the bridge and the division it would cause (when we finally seem relatively joined up again!) may not help.

What we need is someone who can give the job the degree of passion and effort that Rafa will be remembered as one of our top managers for.

Heart still says Rafa. Head now says, make his traits part of the Job Description.

[Monkey Red]

Lovely post, and an enjoyment to read. Pity the anti Rafa brigade need to find something in every thread to get their point, and their little digs in.

[xerxes1]

the fact our current manager cannot steady the ship (as he was employed to do) means he has failed and as others have said, our next manager is utterly crucial to the future of our club. kenny has vast experience of managing and moreso he understands our club as well as anyone. if he isnt permanent he is the perfect choice to steady the ship and should have been appointed from the start. it gives us time to really do our homework and find the most suitable canditate.

It's not looking good for Roy is it. The extent to which it is his fault, and the extent to which it is circumstance is hard to say, but no-one can argue that things have improved.

I still have huge reservations about Kenny. But an Avram Grant/Hiddunk style appointment where it was made clear that the job was a caretaker one till the summer until NESV have setteld in and better candidates become available is an argument that I might not agree with, but would accept.

[Roger Federer]

As supporters, we have to admit - all of us - that we were wrong to panic over a 7th place finish - a finish that resulted in 5m less quid in prize money than coming top. We tilted. We threw the book at the whole system, and blamed Rafa.

I don't think I panicked over finishing 7th, but it was very disappointing. Not so much the position, but the manner in which we played from November forward. We played very poor football, had very little belief in our own ability, and I do think Rafa and Liverpool were at the end of the road. That doesn't mean you should, in your words, throw the book at the whole system, and only lay the blame on him, but he was in part responsible for our decline (23 points worse off from the season before), and I do think another manager should continue what he started, rather than the man himself.

Preferably a more attack-minded manager, someone with a record of using the youth players (which we now seem to have at the acadamy and reserves - thanks to Rafa again) and work with limited resources. In other words, not someone like Hodgson. But that is who we got, and the decline which started last year, have accelerated at an alarming pace, and Rafa's tenure last year seems OK by now. But I don't think it was, and if we'd gotten the right manager to replace him from the start, I don't think anyone else would have thought so either.

[Rafa_La]

Delusional.

Could we get medication for you? That might help and works quickly

[red_dub]

great opening post, its exactly how i feel.

[The Jackal]

As supporters, we have to admit - all of us - that we were wrong to panic over a 7th place finish - a finish that resulted in 5m less quid in prize money than coming top. We tilted. We threw the book at the whole system, and blamed Rafa. Folks like yourself are still clinging to reasons that weren't even valid at the time, never mind now, second from bottom.

I never panicked, and certainly never blamed Rafa - I blamed lack of investment, injuries, poor decisions/ bad luck, player attitude and loss of form. I was gutted obviously, but thinking only about sorting out the problems and pushing on again the following season. When Rafa got pushed I couldn't believe it and was devastated.

[eddymunster]

Spot on E2K.

[vicgill]

It's not looking good for Roy is it. The extent to which it is his fault, and the extent to which it is circumstance is hard to say, but no-one can argue that things have improved.

I still have huge reservations about Kenny. But an Avram Grant/Hiddunk style appointment where it was made clear that the job was a caretaker one till the summer until NESV have setteld in and better candidates become available is an argument that I might not agree with, but would accept.

If you are looking for a "stand in manager" then kenny would fit the bill in my opinion, he knows the club inside out, he knows what football the fans like to see and would have the respect of all the players and the fans.

[xerxes1]

If you are looking for a "stand in manager" then kenny would fit the bill in my opinion, he knows the club inside out, he knows what football the fans like to see and would have the respect of all the players.

Vic, my opinion is starting to shift, and if the job is just to hold the fort till the summer, with essential transfer activity only,I am starting to think you may be right.

[Red Fitzy 77]

Top post E2K

[AndrewLFC_1971]

I'd have to agree. Rafa is not without his faults.

True Rafa had faults, as do all people, but do you really think he deserved the sack for finishing 7th in the climate he was operating in ? Rafa was sacked because of a media onslaught that was bought by certain fans and political games in the boardroom, the anti Benitez feeling in the uk media is disgusting and they can all fuck off with their ill informed shite, getting back to the thread topic he's spot on, all we need is a class manager with an ounce of tactical awareness , we have the players, we need a few more it's true but it's nowhere near as bleak as knobs like jamie redknapp think it is.

[xerxes1]

As supporters, we have to admit - all of us - that we were wrong to panic over a 7th place finish - a finish that resulted in 5m less quid in prize money than coming top. We tilted. We threw the book at the whole system, and blamed Rafa. Folks like yourself are still clinging to reasons that weren't even valid at the time, never mind now, second from bottom.

My concern was not about the finish, which in relation to investment was probably about right, it was that the situation as a whole had become impossible with G&H. And I think that was right.

An intriguing question has subsequently emerged with Rafa. Is he in fact an impact manager rather than a dynasty builder? His success at tenerife and extremadura was in a year, at Valencia within three years and here in two he won waht he was going to win. Maybe his job was done?He has started well at Inter on a two year contract, it will be interesting to see what happens at the end of that.

[Finn Solomon]

Would Kenny agree to being caretaker manager until a replacement can be found? Or will he try to hold on to the job, knowing the fan backlash would be titanic if he were to be let go?

If you're going to appoint Kenny, do it properly and back him with money. That's what I'd like to see.

[FanField]

Great.... a very enjoyable read.

Who they listen to and take advice from is absolutely critical in all this... and not a little scary.

[xerxes1]

Would Kenny agree to being caretaker manager until a replacement can be found? Or will he try to hold on to the job, knowing the fan backlash would be titanic if he were to be let go?
If you're going to appoint Kenny, do it properly and back him with money. That's what I'd like to see.

And therein lies the rub, appointing someone for sentimental reasons ,and them holding onto it for the same, is bad for everyone.It could set us back still further, like Leed's desperate attempts to recreate the Revie era was.

It is very difficult to see how Kenny is the future at a time when we need to be looking forwards, not back.

[xerxes1]

If you are looking for a "stand in manager" then kenny would fit the bill in my opinion, he knows the club inside out, he knows what football the fans like to see and would have the respect of all the players.

A further point in your favour Vic is that it would also make sure that he wa totally up to speed for a DOF/Board appointment.

[nocturnalvin]

The JOB is actually bigger than what was being expressed. The Job requires balls of steel, an authoritarian of sort to drop the likes of Carra and even Stevie. The Job requires giving faith to a fledging academy that now appears to has its progress into the first team halted. The job requires a big "fuck off" to the media, the courage to stand up to the fraternity led by rednose.

Despite the well written words, it certainly is optimistic to say the least.

[JP-65]

Would Kenny agree to being caretaker manager until a replacement can be found? Or will he try to hold on to the job, knowing the fan backlash would be titanic if he were to be let go?

If you're going to appoint Kenny, do it properly and back him with money. That's what I'd like to see.

IMO, you figure out who you want long-term, if he's available now...great, if not, you go the interim route....which is Kenny, if he'll take it.

[Finn Solomon]

IMO, you figure out who you want long-term, if he's available now...great, if not, you go the interim route....which is Kenny, if he'll take it.

What if Kenny doesn't want to step down in favour of Laudrup or Hiddink or whoever? What happens if Kenny doesn't want to remain just an interim?

Things could get very ugly.

[The Gulleysucker]

Vic, my opinion is starting to shift, and if the job is just to hold the fort till the summer, with essential transfer activity only,I am starting to think you may be right.

Excellent. Some of us knew you'd come round to it eventually.

I know you have expressed your doubts for some very valid reasons but in the current circumstances it just makes sense.

He would have such a fantastic galvanising effect and would start his tenure with the true best wishes of the vast majority of not just Liverpool fans, but the media.

And by now, silverware expectations for this season are so subdued his task is actually made easier, just get the players playing again and to some sort of productive system that utilises them to their strengths instead of this shambles that seems to have no end that we are currently seeing.

At the end of the season, a more sober assessment can be made and then suitable candidates for a permanent position can be drawn up and considered, including Dalglish if he so wishes.

He'd love it, and we'd love it.

[RedRush]

Excellent as usual. Top top post by E2K. RAWK is blessed.

[AJ4Seven]

The theme of the piece, that we have enough for a top seven finish, I agree with. What I worry about is the mentality of the side. Rafa left as the manager who had presided over the longest trophyless period in the club's history since Shankly started his grand redesign of the club's fortunes. Has this set of players got the mentality, not the ability (thats agreed), to succeed?

The longest trophyless period in the clubs history was under Shankly, Ged also had a longer trophyless period than Rafa, get it right.

[nocturnalvin]

The fear now isn't if Roy would leave. I'm quite certain he will soon. Asked to.
The fear is the next appointment.

[Finn Solomon]

The fear now isn't if Roy would leave. I'm quite certain he will soon. Asked to.

Not without his 3 million handshake he won't.

[llcooljoel]

Excellent article, I haven't been here long but I'm definitely going to search out some of the authors' other posts if they're all of this standard.

The Rafa bickering needs to stop, at least for now. Whether you like him or loathe him he's no longer our manager.

What stands out is the sheer obscenity and hypocrisy of the press in continuing to champion a manager clearly lost and floundering based on his apparent good career record, especially when you consider how quick they were to jump on someone like Ramos when it was obvious he wasn't up to it. No mention of the four jobs in which he stank so badly that he was sacked, no mention of the fact that the team he inherited finished only 7 seven points from a Champions League spot last season despite appearing to implode, and only little mention of the downright disrespect he repeatedly shows the players and fans with his horrible selfish statements. Statements which will come as no surprise to fans of Udinese for example.

For me, Hodgson's chequered past shows only a manager who has been consistently hit and miss (and in that order!) for 35 years. He did very well in Europe last season with Fulham and rightly deserves respect for that; look at his Premier League credentials though and you see a disaster waiting to happen. Blackburn and Fulham fans will happily tell you of a man unable to mastermind an away win, and whose cautious approach failed more times overall than it succeeded.

Media sycophancy would have you believe that Liverpool fans should be grateful for having someone in charge with the stature and experience of Hodgson, and that criticism of his underwhelming reign so far is ridiculous based on only a handful of games. I would counter that after 15 full games including losses to Northampton Town at home, Everton, Man Utd, Man City, and Blackpool, and our worst start in over 50 years, we're more than qualified to comment on his approach and his mistakes. It's simple: we haven't seen one single positive aspect of his entire stewardship so far. As if that wasn't enough, his post-match press conferences reek of a man who neither knows nor cares how best to rectify the situation. Whether he's being tactful or honest, we've just had enough.

[nocturnalvin]

Not without his 3 million handshake he won't.

What's sick is his audacity to even mention it to the press.

[JJ Red]

Being completely honest, while i was a big fan of Rafa, i did say at the time that if Gerrard, Torres, Reina, and Kuyt had all confirmed that Rafa had lost the dressing room then i can understand the decision (as much as i may have disagreed with their shortsightedness). If it was only Gerrard and Carragher with supporting evidence from Riera, Benny and Babel the we have a problem.

BTW, i'm getting a bit worried guys. He's still in the job! How!

[vicgill]

What if Kenny doesn't want to step down in favour of Laudrup or Hiddink or whoever? What happens if Kenny doesn't want to remain just an interim?

Things could get very ugly.

If kenny does a good job, I am sure he will,  why ask him to step down. He is an honest man and if he thinks he can do it why not, if he thinks it's too much for him, as some have already stated he could then become DOF. What we cannot afford to let happen is being in the bottom 3 at xmas.

The added plus is that he would galvanise the supporters.

[Finn Solomon]

If kenny does a good job, I am sure he will,  why ask him to step down. He is an honest man and if he thinks he can do it why not, if he thinks it's too much for him, as some have already stated he could then become DOF. What we cannot afford to let happen is being in the bottom 3 at xmas.

The added plus is that he would galvanise the supporters.

I suppose you're right.

[rafathegaffa]

What a great post.
It's now tailor-made for any top coach. They could only improve things and negotiate a contract that would improve with performance.