Topic: aphantasia

[classycarra]

not trying to be boasty (sorry if it came over that way!) just laying my credentials on the table

didn't come across that way!

[Claire.]

From reading the description I don't think I have this, though, this apple thing is bugging me. So, I can close my eyes and think of an apple - but it's not like an apple anywhere it'll be the picture of one that I've seen in my house, probably the last one I saw, so maybe I can't visualise an apple, I can remember one. If someone says 'think of a beach' - I can see Crosby, again probably the last one I've seen. Is that what people are doing? Accessing a memory?

With people, I can remember specific instances of when I saw them, the locations are usually more in detail than their faces though I guess it depends on what was more my focus. Sometimes it'll be an incomplete picture, like their face isn't completely constructed but I can 'see' details like what they would've been wearing or their hair.

I don't dream, or at least, don't remember them at all. Sleep for me is proper blackout.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

From reading the description I don't think I have this, though, this apple thing is bugging me. So, I can close my eyes and think of an apple - but it's not like an apple anywhere it'll be the picture of one that I've seen in my house, probably the last one I saw, so maybe I can't visualise an apple, I can remember one. If someone says 'think of a beach' - I can see Crosby, again probably the last one I've seen. Is that what people are doing? Accessing a memory?

With people, I can remember specific instances of when I saw them, the locations are usually more in detail than their faces though I guess it depends on what was more my focus. Sometimes it'll be an incomplete picture, like their face isn't completely constructed but I can 'see' details like what they would've been wearing or their hair.

I don't dream, or at least, don't remember them at all. Sleep for me is proper blackout.

When I've read about it, there are degrees of impact.

Apparantly some people (My missus for instance) says she can recall stuff that has happened and replay it -so if she's sat in a bar looking around, she can do that and 100% clearly remember places and people and events.

I'm at the other end of the scale. I can't recall even a static picture of any object (Though I know what the object is and I know I'm thinking about it - I can describe the object or event - but people are very tricky - I have to meet people a few times before I can 'remember' them - this is probably because if you see someone once and can recall their face then you 'remember' seeing their face in your imagination more than once - but if I meet someone once - that's a one-off hit - I never see them again unless I see a photo or meet them again) - always had problems remembering names because you would need to attach that to their appearance)

But yeah, it seems that everyone else is either at the ends of the range or they are somewhere in the middle. I get cracking dreams pretty much every night in full colour, with smell and taste and sound - I can even feel stuff like swimming in water or feeling the wind blowing or if it's hot or cold. Maybe I get that because the other ability is truncated? When I was practicing lucid dreaming I could completely direct my dream, but I have to work at it and prepare to do it - you can't just 'do' that - well I can't, but I had a mate that said he could at the drop of a hat.

[Redwhiteandnotblue]

Nice one thanks for posting that. I certainly stand corrected. I was reading up on it a bit last night, but although I accept that it's right, it seems pretty counter-intuitive. Probably why I haven't got a maths degree

So much of maths doesn't seem to make too much sense. Look at PI - it's only 1.34159... because we have ten fingers and went for the Arabic number system as far as I'm aware. Perhaps there is a point where all these mad and recursive numbers aren't as crazy. Maybe they only work in this 3d (or 4d) reality? Then you see the Universal constants. Why are they the values they are? I have read that they have to be that way for this reality to exist. Maybe we have the answers now or will work them out - these new quantum computers look pretty amazing and should give us a new way of viewing the world.. We might only get there if computers recursively program themselves out of the control of mere humans.

But I think I've gone off on a tangent now (As is my wont )

I think the fact that all of the universal constants are as finely tuned to allow life as they are is a pretty good argument for intelligent design. (But that's just me playing up to my custom title.) God knew what he was doing...

[Claire.]

When I've read about it, there are degrees of impact.

Apparantly some people (My missus for instance) says she can recall stuff that has happened and replay it -so if she's sat in a bar looking around, she can do that and 100% clearly remember places and people and events.

I'm at the other end of the scale. I can't recall even a static picture of any object (Though I know what the object is and I know I'm thinking about it - I can describe the object or event - but people are very tricky - I have to meet people a few times before I can 'remember' them - this is probably because if you see someone once and can recall their face then you 'remember' seeing their face in your imagination more than once - but if I meet someone once - that's a one-off hit - I never see them again unless I see a photo or meet them again) - always had problems remembering names because you would need to attach that to their appearance)

But yeah, it seems that everyone else is either at the ends of the range or they are somewhere in the middle. I get cracking dreams pretty much every night in full colour, with smell and taste and sound - I can even feel stuff like swimming in water or feeling the wind blowing or if it's hot or cold. Maybe I get that because the other ability is truncated? When I was practicing lucid dreaming I could completely direct my dream, but I have to work at it and prepare to do it - you can't just 'do' that - well I can't, but I had a mate that said he could at the drop of a hat.

The people one is a funny one with me because I've done the super recogniser test a few times and scored really high on it, but I was at a funeral on Friday with members of my own family and I'm looking round like I don't recognise a soul. Can be awful at names but I'll remember a face if I've met them before.

The recall of an object or scene is quite good in my memory, like if I need to find something I can think of the object and I'll see it in place in the house and usually can go straight to it, like I'm looking at a photograph in my head and can usually know what was next to it and I make associations between those things. I was always good at that game in school with the things on a tray and the teacher removes one! For me it's more static images, I can't replay a scene in my head.

[liverbloke]

I think the fact that all of the universal constants are as finely tuned to allow life as they are is a pretty good argument for intelligent design. (But that's just me playing up to my custom title.) God knew what he was doing...

i do see what you are saying - and not to hijack andy's thread - but if it wasn't a 'perfect' design (formula) then it wouldn't exist

but then there is chaos theory to contend with also - but chaos does need to work therefore it can't be true chaos (?)

anyhoo - been thinking (not always a good idea), if you were to ask a person to identify an object but not by pure description but by saying something like 'do you know what a cylothelite (just made that up) is?' then what does a person visualise? because it's something that they can't make a connection with because they have never seen one but does a person still imagine what one looks like?

you reading this - what did you visualise a cylothelite was?

[S]

Do any of you with this thing read books? Specifically fiction. This sounds like it would totally ruin that experience.

[tubby]

Andy, does this mean you can't see any old Liverpool goals in your mind's eye?  You can't picture Dalglish against Chelsea, Gerrard in the FA Cup, Origi in the CL, etc?

[Rhi]

Do any of you with this thing read books? Specifically fiction. This sounds like it would totally ruin that experience.

I only read non-fiction and I couldn't understand why I could never get into fiction in the same way as other people.

[Rhi]

Andy, does this mean you can't see any old Liverpool goals in your mind's eye?  You can't picture Dalglish against Chelsea, Gerrard in the FA Cup, Origi in the CL, etc?

This is a weird one for me. I know the goals and I can describe the goals because I've seen them and I know what happens. But I access the memories as sort of a series of factual things rather than images / moving images of what actually happened. e.g. I can sort of access a memory of the ball bouncing up on the cross bar for Origi's Everton goal.... but if I close my eyes and try and replay it, I don't *see* it. Do people really like *see* it?! I'm still not convinced

[tubby]

This is a weird one for me. I know the goals and I can describe the goals because I've seen them and I know what happens. But I access the memories as sort of a series of factual things rather than images / moving images of what actually happened. e.g. I can sort of access a memory of the ball bouncing up on the cross bar for Origi's Everton goal.... but if I close my eyes and try and replay it, I don't *see* it. Do people really like *see* it?! I'm still not convinced

I can see it without closing my eyes.  But it's not like it's a picture perfect replay of what happened, it's like watching it again through shattered glass, it's a little fragmented.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Andy, does this mean you can't see any old Liverpool goals in your mind's eye?  You can't picture Dalglish against Chelsea, Gerrard in the FA Cup, Origi in the CL, etc?

I know I've seen them and I know I've been to them and I remember the events (If not too hammered )

I remember the run and the pass and the goal and what happened, but no I can't see it at all. I could describe it though.

Pretty envious if you lot can do all that to be honest.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Do any of you with this thing read books? Specifically fiction. This sounds like it would totally ruin that experience.

It's interesting you say that, because thinking about it, yes if I'm reading a cracking book and am right into it then I can 'see' stuff in the book.

Never thought of that before, but I can't do it on my own and it's not constant - I'd have to be really into it - the more 'out there' it is, the more I get into it. So Science Fiction and Fantasy really can generate stuff.

Be good if some scientist bods investigated it and they are looking, but it got discounted years ago by some top bods, so not as much as you may think. They didn't even think it was a real thing until fairly recently.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

This is a weird one for me. I know the goals and I can describe the goals because I've seen them and I know what happens. But I access the memories as sort of a series of factual things rather than images / moving images of what actually happened. e.g. I can sort of access a memory of the ball bouncing up on the cross bar for Origi's Everton goal.... but if I close my eyes and try and replay it, I don't *see* it. Do people really like *see* it?! I'm still not convinced

Yes I think you've described it perfectly there and yeah - I'm the opposite way round with fiction/non-fiction books though. Realised I can 'see' something when into those.

[rob1966]

This is a weird one for me. I know the goals and I can describe the goals because I've seen them and I know what happens. But I access the memories as sort of a series of factual things rather than images / moving images of what actually happened. e.g. I can sort of access a memory of the ball bouncing up on the cross bar for Origi's Everton goal.... but if I close my eyes and try and replay it, I don't *see* it. Do people really like *see* it?! I'm still not convinced

Yes I do. One example is I can see Glenn Hoddle hitting the ball from about 35 yards and it flying, I can see Bruce in the air and it hitting the net, I can see Lawro heading the equaliser, Dalglish making it 2-1 and Whelan getting the third, all from where I was stood in the Kop, I see the movement of the players and the ball flying through the air . This was 1982.

[S]

It's interesting you say that, because thinking about it, yes if I'm reading a cracking book and am right into it then I can 'see' stuff in the book.

Never thought of that before, but I can't do it on my own and it's not constant - I'd have to be really into it - the more 'out there' it is, the more I get into it. So Science Fiction and Fantasy really can generate stuff.

Be good if some scientist bods investigated it and they are looking, but it got discounted years ago by some top bods, so not as much as you may think. They didn't even think it was a real thing until fairly recently.

It’s interesting that it happens that way around.

You’d think picturing Gerrard’s FA Cup volley would be your imagination working on easy mode. You’ve seen it a thousand times, all the hard work is done.

Most of the time with fiction though you’ll be making the entire thing up yourself. Even more so if it’s sci-fi and fantasy, which often have no factual parallels. Your interpretation of it will be unique to anyone else who has ever read the book.

[redbyrdz]

This is a weird one for me. I know the goals and I can describe the goals because I've seen them and I know what happens. But I access the memories as sort of a series of factual things rather than images / moving images of what actually happened. e.g. I can sort of access a memory of the ball bouncing up on the cross bar for Origi's Everton goal.... but if I close my eyes and try and replay it, I don't *see* it. Do people really like *see* it?! I'm still not convinced

Think it is similar to what happens with sound. For example, when you have a song stuck in your head. You "hear" it, and you could sing along with it, but you know it's in your head. It's not like tinnitus, where you actually hear a sound thats not there. It's also not like a hallucination, like people have who "hear voices".


Now I wonder if people with aphantasia get earworms..

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Think it is similar to what happens with sound. For example, when you have a song stuck in your head. You "hear" it, and you could sing along with it, but you know it's in your head. It's not like tinnitus, where you actually hear a sound thats not there. It's also not like a hallucination, like people have who "hear voices".


Now I wonder if people with aphantasia get earworms..

I deffo get those   It appears to be visual with me, I can imagine and dream stuff, but can't recall things that went through my visual cortex, but yeah I remember music and the like, this is why I find it hard to learn songs on the guitar/keyboard - I can remember the physical movements and the music, but can't recall the sheet music/tab, so have to remember the physical work. That also explains why others find it so easy - if they can just see the music/tab then that must be a doddle for them.

[redbyrdz]

I deffo get those   It appears to be visual with me, I can imagine and dream stuff, but can't recall things that went through my visual cortex, but yeah I remember music and the like, this is why I find it hard to learn songs on the guitar/keyboard - I can remember the physical movements and the music, but can't recall the sheet music/tab, so have to remember the physical work. That also explains why others find it so easy - if they can just see the music/tab then that must be a doddle for them.

Most people can't recall visual things that clearly! There is actually a word for those that can - its said they have a photographic memory.

For me, if remember or imagine my childhood piano lessons, there is a sheet there with music, but its blurry and I can't read it. Someone above said its like looking through shattered glass, but for me its more like its blurry or too small to read. I can see the overall layout of things, like there's lines, but no detail. People's faces are the same, but then I'm rubbish with recognising faces.

[AndyInVA]

Pretty envious if you lot can do all that to be honest.

This has turned out to be a great thread.

It's amazing to me that all of us don't have the same experiences with our brains.

I can fully replay so many goals in my head in full fluid detail and in some cases the players facial expression and the crowd sounds and just the 'feel' of the tension because it was a late goal or some other drama. Plus the reactions of the people I watched it with and their reactions.

[redgriffin73]

This is a really interesting thread. I only learnt about aphantasia a few months ago and I'm pretty sure I have it, both Claire and Rhi's descriptions sound similar to me in parts. I can't really visualise things in my head, and I've never understood how people can picture things so clearly. I think of it almost like when you're trying to recall a dream and I'm kind of grasping for it in my head as it slips further away, it almost makes my head hurt trying to picture something. However, when I do sums in my head I do kind of picture floating numbers of sorts, but I definitely wouldn't say I can see whole images or scenes playing out. Also, when I'm just daydreaming, I can try really hard to conjure up an image but it will just drft away.

I do dream occasionally, usually when I'm ill, and when I was younger I would have the most vivid nightmares. But if you asked me now to picture say, Mo Salah, in my head it would just be nothing actually *there* in front of my eyes and more a memory of what I know he looks like - if that even makes sense! This is particularly upsetting when I try to think of relatives who have passed away and I feel like I can't remember what they look like.

I'm also pretty sure I don't see colour either when I'm trying to imagine something (Mo's red shirt for instance) or in dreams.

I can fully replay so many goals in my head in full fluid detail and in some cases the players facial expression and the crowd sounds and just the 'feel' of the tension because it was a late goal or some other drama. Plus the reactions of the people I watched it with and their reactions.

This sounds amazing, I am very jealous!

[JC the Messiah]

My mum has aphantasia, as do some friends. I can 'see' things using my mind's eye, but it's not photo-realistic - although there are some people who can see things pixel-perfect in their mind's eye.  That blows my mind.  One of my best friends can't see his girlfriend's face when he closes his eyes.  He knows what she looks like, but can't picture her - although he could describe her.  When I close my eyes, I can sort of see people and images, but definitely not like I was actually looking at them with my eyes.  I can see my girlfriend's face, her smile, her eyes, etc., but it's like a different sense to sight - if that makes any sense?  I can see Trent winning the corner in front of the Kop, going to walk away as Shak comes over to take it...and then Trent spotting Origi, whipping the ball in, Origi reacting and burying it in to the roof of the net. It's close to a MOTD replay, but but it's also very different.  I can see it, but it's not seeing...

[JC the Messiah]

Oh, and this is a good listen:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001gwys

[Andy @ Allerton!]

This is a really interesting thread. I only learnt about aphantasia a few months ago and I'm pretty sure I have it, both Claire and Rhi's descriptions sound similar to me in parts. I can't really visualise things in my head, and I've never understood how people can picture things so clearly. I think of it almost like when you're trying to recall a dream and I'm kind of grasping for it in my head as it slips further away, it almost makes my head hurt trying to picture something. However, when I do sums in my head I do kind of picture floating numbers of sorts, but I definitely wouldn't say I can see whole images or scenes playing out. Also, when I'm just daydreaming, I can try really hard to conjure up an image but it will just drft away.

I do dream occasionally, usually when I'm ill, and when I was younger I would have the most vivid nightmares. But if you asked me now to picture say, Mo Salah, in my head it would just be nothing actually *there* in front of my eyes and more a memory of what I know he looks like - if that even makes sense! This is particularly upsetting when I try to think of relatives who have passed away and I feel like I can't remember what they look like.

I'm also pretty sure I don't see colour either when I'm trying to imagine something (Mo's red shirt for instance) or in dreams.


This sounds amazing, I am very jealous!

That's what kicked this thread off to be honest mate. My missus says she has instant recall and we sadly have both lost our mums. I've lost everyone else as well apart from my sister and nieces and I can't recall a thing. I had an amazing dream a week ago where my mum turned up and told me 'everything would be all right' - I'm going through not the best time to be honest and it was a wonderful experience. I could see her and we talked. Probably all in my head. But it was great to see her and I've not seen her since she died.

To imagine that people can recall and see their loved ones whenever they feel like it has made me a bit sad about it to be honest. I'm not really the broody type, but sometimes things get to you.

Interesting seeing all the stuff people are saying, that makes me feel a bit better - I'm not alone  

What you describe sounds fairly similar to my position - from reading about it - different people have different things and in some way I think it enhances the way I think because I can't do it visually.

[Komic]

I have this to an extent I think. I can't imagine in colour and its all sort of shades of brown, but with assigned colours. So I know something is green but don't see it as green.

 Also the amount of information of thing that I am imagining is very low. So if I picture my partner's face, it has maybe 10 polygons but if i try to go into more detail I can only picture an eye. However if I then imagine her nose the image of her eye then disappears or becomes more poorly rendered in my brain.

It is quite a sad problem as I was always confused by the line in films of "I can no longer see their face", I thought they meant describe it but guessing for other people they literally mean picture it.