Author Topic: SNP launches referendum white paper  (Read 23648 times)

Offline Reheat Red

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Re: SNP launches referendum white paper
« Reply #320 on: November 29, 2013, 11:45:47 pm »
Why not?  No one is saying that Scotland wants to cut itself off and having nothing to do with the rest of the UK.  We would still work together much like the UK and Ireland do, but be able to better look after our own affairs geared to our own needs, rather than have everything run in the interest of London and the south east.
This work together stuff is typical watering down of independence to try and get more votes.

This is a party who had the catchphrase for the 1992 general election 'Free by 93!'.

Offline Reheat Red

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Re: SNP launches referendum white paper
« Reply #321 on: November 29, 2013, 11:56:13 pm »
Salmond's response to the helicopter crash:  Salmond on twitter: The emergency services are in full operation. Our thoughts are with everyone involved. Scottish resilience operation now mobilised.

That last bit, that is why I don't like him, never misses an opportunity.

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Re: SNP launches referendum white paper
« Reply #322 on: November 29, 2013, 11:59:59 pm »
Salmond's response to the helicopter crash:  Salmond on twitter: The emergency services are in full operation. Our thoughts are with everyone involved. Scottish resilience operation now mobilised.

That last bit, that is why I don't like him, never misses an opportunity.

I don't see what is wrong with that.  The NAtional Risk and Resilience Department deal with major incidents in Scotland.

Offline Welshred

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Re: SNP launches referendum white paper
« Reply #323 on: November 30, 2013, 12:01:38 am »
I don't see what is wrong with that.  The NAtional Risk and Resilience Department deal with major incidents in Scotland.

So why doesn't he call them by their real name then instead of having to put Scotland in there instead?

Offline Reheat Red

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Re: SNP launches referendum white paper
« Reply #324 on: November 30, 2013, 12:01:44 am »
I don't see what is wrong with that.  The NAtional Risk and Resilience Department deal with major incidents in Scotland.
It sounds pretty nationalistic you'd have to admit.

Hopefully everyone will be ok anyway.

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Re: SNP launches referendum white paper
« Reply #325 on: November 30, 2013, 12:03:04 am »
It sounds pretty nationalistic you'd have to admit.

Hopefully everyone will be ok anyway.

How about just not reading too much in to everything?

Offline Reheat Red

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Re: SNP launches referendum white paper
« Reply #326 on: November 30, 2013, 12:04:35 am »
How about just not reading too much in to everything?
Like Wimbledon?

Salmond is always looking to grandstand, and i'm not just looking to have a go at him, there was nothing wrong with Sturgeon's message about the crash.

Offline The Gulleysucker

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Re: SNP launches referendum white paper
« Reply #327 on: November 30, 2013, 12:25:24 am »
You keep banging on about nationalism being such a bad thing, but can you cite any evidence of countries going independent proving your point?

Remember we're talking about nationalism in the context of a country wanting the right to self determination here, don't try and associate it with the BNP, or other similar movements.

I've only banged on once (twice if you include that post).
I've never associated it directly with the BNP, that I'll leave up to you if you are so disposed, though failure to see that nationalism always has unsavoury promoters  and supporters would be foolish.
But I've also always said it is a right of a people to have self determination.
I've also said that it is the responsibility of politicians of all pursuasions to ensure they simply tell the truth as to what will happen should you achieve that and to not let their inflated egos and false sense of their own destinies to impede their telling of such truths. 
Unfortunately I've not seen much evidence of any truth so far, but I've certainly seen a lot of possibly wishful thinking.
But it won't be my problem, it will be yours if you vote yes, though I expect it may also be my children and grandchildrens money that will be required to bail you out if it goes wrong, certainly if you stick to the pound.
My own considered view is if there is a yes vote for Independance, you should be brave and use this as an opportunity to leave the EU and Nato immediately. It will save time and pain in negotiating what will never be accepted by many as a fair settlement.
Out of the EU, at least you can forge your own fiscal destiny just like Norway and immediately adopt your own currency. I see no reason why not if you feel so confident about your fiscal future based on Oil revenues. Do you see a reason why not?
And out of Nato, you won't have the military obligations that Nato would require of you, and just like Sweden and Finland (or even the Swiss), you can forge your own defense arrangements to suit your perceived needs of oilfield and coastal waters protection. 
It will be your country, your chosen destiny, and riightly so if a majority vote yes, and I will genuinely wish you well.
But just don't say no one cautioned you of the possibly dangers.








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Re: SNP launches referendum white paper
« Reply #328 on: November 30, 2013, 12:14:06 pm »
I've only banged on once (twice if you include that post).
I've never associated it directly with the BNP, that I'll leave up to you if you are so disposed, though failure to see that nationalism always has unsavoury promoters  and supporters would be foolish.
But I've also always said it is a right of a people to have self determination.
I've also said that it is the responsibility of politicians of all pursuasions to ensure they simply tell the truth as to what will happen should you achieve that and to not let their inflated egos and false sense of their own destinies to impede their telling of such truths. 
Unfortunately I've not seen much evidence of any truth so far, but I've certainly seen a lot of possibly wishful thinking.
But it won't be my problem, it will be yours if you vote yes, though I expect it may also be my children and grandchildrens money that will be required to bail you out if it goes wrong, certainly if you stick to the pound.
My own considered view is if there is a yes vote for Independance, you should be brave and use this as an opportunity to leave the EU and Nato immediately. It will save time and pain in negotiating what will never be accepted by many as a fair settlement.
Out of the EU, at least you can forge your own fiscal destiny just like Norway and immediately adopt your own currency. I see no reason why not if you feel so confident about your fiscal future based on Oil revenues. Do you see a reason why not?
And out of Nato, you won't have the military obligations that Nato would require of you, and just like Sweden and Finland (or even the Swiss), you can forge your own defense arrangements to suit your perceived needs of oilfield and coastal waters protection. 
It will be your country, your chosen destiny, and riightly so if a majority vote yes, and I will genuinely wish you well.
But just don't say no one cautioned you of the possibly dangers.

Apologies Gulleysucker, I mixed you up with someone else.

I actually agree with you that ultimately Scotland should have it's own currency and should leave NATO but not the EU.

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Re: SNP launches referendum white paper
« Reply #329 on: November 30, 2013, 12:18:09 pm »
http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-red-face-gang/

This is hilarious, BT have put out this graphic rubbishing SNP's claims that Scotland would be unimaginably rich after independence, failing to notice that the table is the projection of Scotland's finances 'under current constitutional arrangements' i.e as part of the UK.



Quote
Yep, astonishing as it seems, the No campaign has based its attack on projections for a Scotland that’s still in the UK. It would, obviously, be in the SNP’s interests to make those figures look as bad as possible, so that the ones for independence would be good by comparison. Yet the blundering boffins in Blair McDougall’s crack “war room” have bungled spectacularly by mistaking the “Scotland in the UK” figures for the “independent Scotland” ones.

Offline The Gulleysucker

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Re: SNP launches referendum white paper
« Reply #330 on: November 30, 2013, 01:18:38 pm »
I actually agree with you that ultimately Scotland should have it's own currency and should leave NATO but not the EU.

You see I have some difficulty following that logic.

If you remain in the EU, your actual Independence is conditional on the whims of other state banks and political legislation and not significantly better than what I understand Devo Max would offer.

You will be subject to EU regulations on a wide variety of things largely driven by the economic interests of the Big guys.

Let's just take state shipbuilding subsidies. These are illegal in the EU. But if you use this opportunity to leave it will swerve all this stuff about other EU states forcing you to re-apply for a start, and you can then provide state subsidies to your shipbuilding thus retaining capacity and skills and even competing for contracts to supply EU nations with ships (as Korea does, though it's unlikely orders for sigificant military ones will occur though I see no reason why defensive coastal patrol ships couldn't become one of your specialisations - a huge market for them in places like the Phillipines and Indonesia)

Similar things will apply with the power generating industry. You could invest massively in state provided renewables, wave power generators etc and the moribund Hydro schemes. Aside from Oil, you're potentially incredibly rich there and you could be a significant exporter of Electricity to the rest of the UK with the right investment.

Don't forget you can be out of the EU, as Norway is, but still track and implement EU legislation when it suites you, and you can also be part of EFTA and a signatory of Schwengen, again just like Norway.

I'm not sure how much Scotland gets in CAP from the EU, but it's probably not a significant loss in comparison to what you may pay in as a small independent but advanced nation.

You will also save on not having to have a bureaucracy in support of your participation in the EU.

Trade over the Border to the UK would remain the same, as with Norway to the rest of the EU, and with possibly tax incentives for inward investment, this perhaps could even be increased considerably.

Of course there will be some things you will possibly lose, but for such a small and yet highly developed and generally well educated nation with still significant projected Oil revenues, I can't think of too many deal breakers and I believe the opportunity to exit from the EU should be seriously considered.

But you won't have much of a window  of opportunity to get it right, though the Chinese will probably bankroll you for at least the next twenty years if you give them first dibs at the oil.

(I happen to be pro EU myself though not a supporter of Federalism, but I can see the attractions of being out of it in certain circumstances of population size and standard of economic development and potential which I think would strongly apply to an Independent Scotland.)

Oh, and whatever you do, at least use this as an opportunity to get rid of the Royal family nonsense up there, please.... ;D
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Offline Welshred

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Re: SNP launches referendum white paper
« Reply #331 on: November 30, 2013, 01:38:49 pm »


Oh, and whatever you do, at least use this as an opportunity to get rid of the Royal family nonsense up there, please.... ;D

Fairly sure the white paper states the Queen would remain head of state...

Offline Carly

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Re: SNP launches referendum white paper
« Reply #332 on: November 30, 2013, 02:58:30 pm »
http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-red-face-gang/

This is hilarious, BT have put out this graphic rubbishing SNP's claims that Scotland would be unimaginably rich after independence, failing to notice that the table is the projection of Scotland's finances 'under current constitutional arrangements' i.e as part of the UK.




Errr, I saw that the other day I smiled because they were clearly being sarcastic.  Read the bottom off that picture, it clearly states next to a * point that these projections are based on "Scottish government "projections".......  ie SNP figures.... They were using these figureS to point out "how good Scotland is doing and how they'd have no problems going independent" The better together campaign were simply pointing out that some of their figures were over optimistic..

The better together campaign were in a way doing the SNP's job for them by pointing out how much extra an independent Scotland would have to spend on alot of these totals/how much they stand to lose....... ie next to total expenditure on this table the SNP figures state £63.7 billion....  Next to it the better together campaign were pointing  out how much bigger this would need to be for transitional costs from going independent in the same year.......

Its pretty clear what the better together campaign were doing if you read it properly.......

They were simply "fixing" the SNP's figures.

So no its not "hilarious" ;)  What is hilarious is that the SNP havent actually released any proper economic plans for independence.  Unless you can point me to them?
« Last Edit: November 30, 2013, 03:05:20 pm by karl1987 »

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Re: SNP launches referendum white paper
« Reply #333 on: November 30, 2013, 04:38:32 pm »
How about just not reading too much in to everything?

To be honest I was wondering why he was at the interviews/press conference with emergency services this morning
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Offline Carly

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Re: SNP launches referendum white paper
« Reply #334 on: November 30, 2013, 04:47:24 pm »
Yesterday I posted an article about Salmonds so called Defence force regarding his imaginary navy which is torn to shreds .....  The same author has now released part 2 regarding the so called air force Salmond plans to have......

http://thinpinstripedline.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/assessment-on-proposals-for-scottish_30.html
-------------------

Assessment on the proposals for the Scottish Defence force (Part Two – The Air Force)

In the previous part of this series, Humphrey looked at the proposals for what an independent Scottish Navy would look like, and whether it would be fit for purpose. His general conclusions were that any force would struggle to achieve the goals placed on it due to the lack of support, infrastructure, money and manpower. The next part of this series will focus on the proposals for the Air Force.

The current proposals seem somewhat vague – they seem to imply the acquisition of around 12 Typhoon jets for QRA and 6 C130 Hercules, presumably operating out of Lossiemouth and a helicopter squadron (type unknown) plus contributions to wider regional air defence and seeking fast jet training overseas. The assumption is that around 2000 personnel will be required for this task.

The first challenge is the Typhoon fleet and how it can be operated to best effect. QRA is a very expensive thing to do properly – its not just about having pilots based in a cockpit ready to take off. Setting up QRA is about having a Recognised Air Picture, a means of sharing information and communicating it to the airbase. It is about having the C2 links in place so that in the event of a scramble, the means exist for the senior decision taking Minister to be able to authorise a shoot down decision and then for the pilot to carry it out in an appropriate manner. This ability needs to be available 24/7/365 and is an onerous task on aircrew and support teams.

In the SDF the reality is that with only 12 jets available, their entire effort will be taken up doing QRA – assuming two training aircraft come over, this gives a squadron of 10 aircraft to generate 2 airframes on a constant basis. Take two out of the equation for servicing, two on the flight line and two being prepared to take over, and this leaves you with a flex of four aircraft to conduct all training and flying for the fleet.

The MOD currently estimates that Typhoon costs £70k per hour to fly (full costs), so assuming that it flies for 30 hours per airframe per month over a year (an averaged figure as there will be peaks and troughs), you suddenly realise that it would cost £2.1 million per month, £25 million per year to keep each aircraft going, or a total of nearly £300 million per year to ensure that two jets were constantly available for QRA. This is well over 10% of the putative budget. Add to this the operating costs of RAF Lossiemouth currently exceed £100m per year, and you realise that nearly 20% of the SDF budget is going to be taken up just to run QRA.

The next challenge is manpower and support. Finding the Typhoon pilots to join will be a headache – there is no guarantee they will come over at independence, and it takes many years to train new ones. A job offer of a career where your entire flying life will be linked to QRA is unlikely to be a draw for many pilots unless they want long term stability. Retention is likely to prove a major issue for the SDF as it simply will not be able to offer the sort of opportunities that other Typhoon operating forces can.

More worryingly still is not the pilots, but securing sufficient trained groundcrew and engineers to support the Typhoon. There is no aviation engineering training facility in Scotland, meaning the SDF will either need to build one at very substantial cost, or try to get places on courses elsewhere (presumably in the UK). Given that these come at significant cost, and there is no guarantee of places on a long term basis, one cannot escape the sense that either the SDF will have to invest heavily in local training, or it will have to accept it is utterly dependent on the UK for provision of training of its ground crew in perpetuity. Humphrey predicts that securing sufficient trained engineers in the force will be the biggest challenge facing the SDF.
The other problem is who actually supports the aircraft – a lot of deep level RAF servicing has been contracted out now, and these contracts will be null and void for the SDF airframes. The SDF will either have to spend a lot of money to introduce servicing facilities (which are not cheap) or it will have to enter into all manner of very expensive commercial arrangements with UK companies to get them to support Typhoon in Scottish service. This sort of arrangement cannot be skimped either – if you don’t service your aircraft, then you quickly lose the ability to fly them. As such a newly independent Scotland may find itself hamstrung by a need to pay a great deal of money in support contracts and servicing contracts and not capital investment in new technology.

The final issue with adopting Typhoon is what batch of aircraft will be taken and how Scotland proposes to work with the Eurofighter consortium of nations? Typhoon is subject to a multi-national development programme which isn't cheap, but is designed to keep the aircraft at the cutting edge. Either Scotland buys into the programme (again at very considerable cost), ensuring its airframes remain current and relevant, or it has to save money in the short term by not working with the partner nations, but instead finds itself solely responsible for updating and upgrading an increasingly obsolete fleet. The costs to the Scottish taxpayer would rise as this would essentially become an orphan fleet, incurring significant costs to industry to support it.

So when looking at the proposal to operate Typhoon, there seem to be real and clear difficulties in providing the aircrew (and there is no guarantee of getting flying training places given how taught the training pipeline is for most nations these days with very little spare capacity to sell), and the ground crew to support the aircraft. There are huge and immediate support costs to be incurred to run the airframe, and the long term investment costs are substantial. Of course it could be done, but it will cost far more than people think, and will place great pressure on a defence budget which looks increasingly overheated.

The proposal to acquire C130s seems similarly expensive. There is not, and has never been a C130 basing presence in Scotland. This means that the SDF would need to pay out from the start to set up a C130 support facility and hangar in Lossiemouth. They would also need to find sufficiently trained crews and groundstaff – a small point, but the C130 fleet has been based at Lyneham and Brize Norton for nearly 50 years. Finding a sufficient pool of operators and support staff to uproot from their home to go to a newly independent Scotland is going to be a major challenge in itself.

The next challenge is that C130 is due to leave RAF service in 2022 (or thereabouts). This means that the SDF will not be able to draw on RAF resources in the medium term for shared training or support places, thus meaning a requirement to set their own training pipeline up. Given the age of the ‘J’ fleet, the heavy fatigue on most airframes as a result of TELIC/HERRICK and the lack of a long term future in the RAF, one feels that the SDF will find itself saddled with a great deal of costs to keep the airframe going. Of course it can be done, but it is going to be much more expensive than planned – particularly once you factor in the costs of training all the ground crew and aircrew locally, as there will be no UK pipeline for them to try and secure places on.

The proposal to acquire a squadron of helicopters has similar challenges – where do the crews come from, where does the support come from and where do you get it serviced? Frankly the lack of planning as to how you would recruit the aircrew pipeline, and where they would be trained is perhaps the biggest worry in these plans. The time it takes to get people to the front line is measured in years, and requires training schools, training aircraft fleets and a lot of investment of time and money. The SDF will get a one time injection of equipment but cannot guarantee what level of personnel it will get. It has to retain the people it does get, while recruiting and training at a fast pace from the start of independence to ensure that in 5-10 years after independence, there are sufficiently qualified pilots, engineers and other key staff in the system. This is going to place a large burden on the training pipeline, and cost an enormous amount of money.

So in summary, the proposals for the SDF Air Force appear to be built around the concept of operating a very expensive and enormously capable fighter jet purely for QRA, while introducing an aged and nearly out of service transport aircraft into an environment where it has never been based before. It assumes that this will be done on a manpower ceiling capable of retaining key personnel, and recruiting / training more staff through a training and ground school environment which doesn't yet exist and would be extortionately expensive to create. All of this will be done within a shared wider budget of £2.5 billion.

Bluntly the sums don’t add up, the manpower totals don’t add up, and the ability to generate a long term and credible airforce is probably in doubt due to the lack of thought about the training and support implications of the plan.


In the final part of this series, Humphrey will look at some wider aspects of the plan and see whether the plans really do add up. 

Online Elmo!

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Re: SNP launches referendum white paper
« Reply #335 on: November 30, 2013, 05:09:56 pm »
Errr, I saw that the other day I smiled because they were clearly being sarcastic.  Read the bottom off that picture, it clearly states next to a * point that these projections are based on "Scottish government "projections".......  ie SNP figures.... They were using these figureS to point out "how good Scotland is doing and how they'd have no problems going independent" The better together campaign were simply pointing out that some of their figures were over optimistic..

The better together campaign were in a way doing the SNP's job for them by pointing out how much extra an independent Scotland would have to spend on alot of these totals/how much they stand to lose....... ie next to total expenditure on this table the SNP figures state £63.7 billion....  Next to it the better together campaign were pointing  out how much bigger this would need to be for transitional costs from going independent in the same year.......

Its pretty clear what the better together campaign were doing if you read it properly.......

They were simply "fixing" the SNP's figures.

So no its not "hilarious" ;)  What is hilarious is that the SNP havent actually released any proper economic plans for independence.  Unless you can point me to them?

What are you talking about? There is no budget for transitional costs because it is based on still being in the UK.  BT have even commented on one figure saying this is based on Scotland remaining in the UK, failing to notice that the whole graphic is based on Scotland remaining in the UK.

Offline Carly

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Re: SNP launches referendum white paper
« Reply #336 on: November 30, 2013, 05:41:52 pm »
What are you talking about? There is no budget for transitional costs because it is based on still being in the UK.  BT have even commented on one figure saying this is based on Scotland remaining in the UK, failing to notice that the whole graphic is based on Scotland remaining in the UK.

The whole point of the white paper was to show how Scotland could and would survive if they got independence.  The only part of the white paper that had any proper economic figures were ones that were based on being part of the UK which the SNP had adjusted to be more favourable to them, and in turn making it look like Scotland would be in far better shape in a couple of years time.  The better together campaign merely pointed out these little flaws and also mentioned the added costs/cuts that would be needed that year if you got Independence.  Something the SNP clearly forgot to mention.  ;)

If you had read it properly you would have seen what the better together campaign were doing.... 

« Last Edit: November 30, 2013, 05:54:53 pm by karl1987 »

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Re: SNP launches referendum white paper
« Reply #337 on: November 30, 2013, 06:17:52 pm »
http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-red-face-gang/

This is hilarious, BT have put out this graphic rubbishing SNP's claims that Scotland would be unimaginably rich after independence, failing to notice that the table is the projection of Scotland's finances 'under current constitutional arrangements' i.e as part of the UK.




Good read that and quite funny , not just the pic here .
JFT96

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Re: SNP launches referendum white paper
« Reply #338 on: August 30, 2018, 10:20:44 pm »
Alms for an ex-leper?

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Re: SNP launches referendum white paper
« Reply #339 on: August 30, 2018, 10:53:04 pm »
:lmao

Fucking hell
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