Topic: Round the table, Stoke 1-0 Liverpool

[Hinesy]

Well, it was to be expected. The reality hits us that we'll get beaten and sometimes it'll be shit after a shit game where the stats say we shoulda won it, where Suarez coulda drawn it and where the world woulda expected it.
But no.
Questions:
Its not about excuses, I'm not interested in why we lost, that analysis appears simple. Adam had his least good game for us, Carragher had a couple of slips of judgement and the whole team appeared unteamlike. We were distracted and disjointed. That much is clear.

What I am interested in is this: without Gerrard on the field, it was clear that no player took a leading role yesterday. We didn't impose ourselves on the midfield nor the game. Is it that because no-one is capable or is it because no-one wants to, knowing Gerrard is coming back to play?

Also, when teams like Stoke (who by the way, didn't just play all shithouse football but had Pennant running nicely at times and Jones holding the ball properly and well) defend a tiny lead at the back the way they did, and press consistently, where's and what's our plan B? One of the first round tables asked, do we have a plan B? Well I didn't see any evidence of it yesterday.

Finally bad day at the office or genuine worry about areas of the park?

[SMD]

Disjointed is what happens when your midfield lines up with 4 players who have barely played together. It's what happens when you've radically changed the starting line up over the summer and it's what happens when your captain is out injured and your vice-captain is on the wane. First I want to raise a point that no one's talking about - the captaincy. I think Lucas should be captain. Not next season, not when Gerrard leaves, now. He is a calming influence, he never hides and I think he'd grow into the role in a way that would only boost his game. He's *touch wood* almost always fit and it also relieves some of the pressure on Gerrard, both on the pitch and with his fitness.

I said in the summer that we needed to keep one of Aquilani and Meireles, not because of any perceived dependence on them for creativity but just because we need at least one player who's played for us to provide that spark. Unfortunately we couldn't keep both and that meant that we lost the ability to bring some added dynamism in the heart of midfield. Charlie Adam can do many things but physical phenomenon he is not. Unfortunately this also means if he misplaces his passes then he doesn't really contribute. I was calling for him to go off for Bellamy, so him and Suarez could line up either side of Dirk and have a middle 3 of Henderson, Lucas and Downing. That didn't quite work out but it was clear Kenny had the same sort of idea. The narrow pitch saw Kenny switch Henderson and Downing but our best play came when Downing and Enrique stretched the play late on, as well as Bellamy and Suarez starting wide and coming in. Unfortunately with Stoke 1-0 up then they were defending so deep that our forward players couldn't burst through. True, we spurned decent chances trying to walk it into the net but that returns to the issue of no one really stepping up.

I would guarantee that Henderson in a settled side would put away that one on one pretty much every single time. Suarez will slot away more difficult chances and Bellamy will get chances like the header at the end of the game. A settled side would be more comfortable in knowing when Henderson will make those runs from midfield beyond the strikers or that Bellamy and Suarez on the same pitch will create carnage in the opposition area. A settled 18 would look at a stubborn 8 man Stoke defence and think of any number of permutations to drag them out of position. Unfortunately we don't have that yet and unless we sign another player who scores goals out of nothing then we're going to just have to wait.

Carroll is going to be this season's talking point that isn't Carragher. As far as I'm concerned, the issue is the midfield and until they're functioning as a unit then we're not going to see the best of Andy.

That being my considered opinion, I still can't believe that challenge on Walters and I still can't believe how we didn't score. Play that game another 9 times and we wouldn't lose again.

[SMD]

Oh and not that I forgot so much as tried to block it out but the officiating yesterday was incredibly frustrating. How the fuck he gave that free kick against Enrique for leaning into the ball but not the Stoke defender blocking with his hand.

[Aristotle]

Disjointed is what happens when your midfield lines up with 4 players who have barely played together. It's what happens when you've radically changed the starting line up over the summer and it's what happens when your captain is out injured and your vice-captain is on the wane.

I agree with that. This was certainly a case of a disjointed performance and the roughness around the edges was there for all to see. There was virtually no harmony in the squad and the game was defined by players either trying to do it all on their own or being too polite in letting others have the ball. And although on the one hand it's a positive sign that someone like Adam doesn't shy away from responsibility and isn't deterred after failing in his attempts. It was annoying as shit watching his Blackpool-era tunnel vision in action when he had so much better around him. I recall two passes in particular where he found Enrique and Downing both over 30 yard passes that were the stuff of dreams both of which started a possible goal scoring scenario. But I also remember at least 7 of those passes that overshot the target by a long shot. There was one which really annoyed me where he had Downing to his right, Enrique to his left, Lucas and Agger behind him and then Kuyt infront of him and he tried a 40 yard pass that went straight to the 'keeper. Again a double edged sword. He has the ability to pull it off and the confidence to do it, but he has to remember that he's playing with a team where 9/10 players are in their respective national teams. They know what they're doing and they don't need him to pull a Superman effort everytime he gets the ball.
Same can be applied to Henderson's incredible 3 attempts where he seemed far too conscious about the team needing him to score and the pressure being all on him. I'm sure that next season if he's in the same scenario the only thing going through his head will be how to celebrate the goal he's about to score. Frustrating and annoying to watch when it happens but in the grand scheme of things just a learning experience.

First I want to raise a point that no one's talking about - the captaincy. I think Lucas should be captain. Not next season, not when Gerrard leaves, now. He is a calming influence, he never hides and I think he'd grow into the role in a way that would only boost his game. He's *touch wood* almost always fit and it also relieves some of the pressure on Gerrard, both on the pitch and with his fitness.

I can't find fault with that in honesty. Out of all our players (bar maybe Pepe) he's the one who leads by example on the pitch. In every one of our "brawls" we've had be it against the Mancs, Bitters, Arsenal or whomever it may be he's always the first on the scene to stand up for his team-mates. And for all of Gerrard's positives and his almost trademark ability to grab a game by the scruff of it's neck and drag the team across the finish line it can also work against the team. He can save the team, he can do it by himself when it's needed, but it doesn't mean that he always should. An example of which would be the infamous 1-2 derby win.

Steven Gerrard is a fantastic player, there is no doubt about this. But we were playing a game we needed to win and I needed to take decisions.
Some players today were playing with too much passion. You must play with passion, but also analyse that we had plenty of possession and needed to use the ball better. We needed to control the game because we were playing with 11 players against 10. We were playing with too much passion and we needed to keep the ball and pass the ball. Lucas can do this.

As for Carragher I've never bought into his Gordon Ramsay-esque way of running the defense. Shouting at and abusing everyone around you in order to maintain an organisation and discipline. It's why I always loved Sami. He was as much leader as safety net. Everyone in the defense had a part to play, and if they failed he was there to pick up the slack and help you make amends for your errors. Something that's never really been Carra's style. Not to mention his annoying habit of shouting abuse at the youngsters to cover himself like he did with Kelly and Ayala or picking a fight with Arbeloa.

In the end it all comes down to what you want from your captain. Passion, determination, full-speed ahead or a level head and resolute carachter. Neither is right or wrong but they offer something unique. But the last 2 seasons haven't been adding much to the former's merit.

I said in the summer that we needed to keep one of Aquilani and Meireles, not because of any perceived dependence on them for creativity but just because we need at least one player who's played for us to provide that spark. Unfortunately we couldn't keep both and that meant that we lost the ability to bring some added dynamism in the heart of midfield. Charlie Adam can do many things but physical phenomenon he is not. Unfortunately this also means if he misplaces his passes then he doesn't really contribute. I was calling for him to go off for Bellamy, so him and Suarez could line up either side of Dirk and have a middle 3 of Henderson, Lucas and Downing. That didn't quite work out but it was clear Kenny had the same sort of idea. The narrow pitch saw Kenny switch Henderson and Downing but our best play came when Downing and Enrique stretched the play late on, as well as Bellamy and Suarez starting wide and coming in. Unfortunately with Stoke 1-0 up then they were defending so deep that our forward players couldn't burst through. True, we spurned decent chances trying to walk it into the net but that returns to the issue of no one really stepping up.

I think it's a fair point. Sure Suarez can do things only possible from world class players, but even he has an off day. We have Gerrard coming from injury, Downing has a bit of magic about him and Bellamy can take 2 players on and blast it into the top corner and that's it really. My biggest concern is we're a bit lightweight in midfield. For all their qualities we lack some fight there. Because as much as we hate the rugby aura some teams have, it's simply a fact in the PL that they exist and if allowed they'll pick a fight and beat you. At Anfield we would've dragged them out of position and had them play our game. But we went to the Britannia and tried to outmuscle them with a midfield of Downing-Adam-Lucas-Henderson. Lucas is deceptively strong, but the rest can be bullied. We don't have the pitbulls anymore. Your Mascherano or Sissoko. Someone who will go into every challenge and 95% of the time come out on top.

I would guarantee that Henderson in a settled side would put away that one on one pretty much every single time. Suarez will slot away more difficult chances and Bellamy will get chances like the header at the end of the game. A settled side would be more comfortable in knowing when Henderson will make those runs from midfield beyond the strikers or that Bellamy and Suarez on the same pitch will create carnage in the opposition area. A settled 18 would look at a stubborn 8 man Stoke defence and think of any number of permutations to drag them out of position. Unfortunately we don't have that yet and unless we sign another player who scores goals out of nothing then we're going to just have to wait.

Nothing to add to that. We showed the potential to be a great squad, and in theory it should only be a matter of time.

Carroll is going to be this season's talking point that isn't Carragher. As far as I'm concerned, the issue is the midfield and until they're functioning as a unit then we're not going to see the best of Andy.

As I said in the now-locked Carroll thread, after the Exeter game.

I'll probably get laughed at for saying this but fuck it. I think he could become the complete package. Somewhere in between Shearer and Luca Toni. His size and build flatters to decieve and really reflects badly on him. Yes he is a fucking monster in the air, but look at his goals and many of them are either poacher's efforts or knock down that he blasts into the back of the net. Much of it can arguably be put down to lack of understanding. He cuts into the near post and a floater comes to the back poast and such things, but that will all come with time. I also think the new boys are using him as an easy way out. They get put under pressure and they makes a "long pass" towards ol' Andy up top.
For me it's relatively simple. As long as we treat him like Heskey he'll play like Heskey. We aren't playing to his strengths we're playing to our inability to play the ball on the ground.

Also another thing that's been bugging me is people who have been criticizing his heading ability. When the reality is more likely that should it have been anyone else those crosses would've ended in goal kicks or throw ins. His freakish ability to reach anything that enters his radius has made his team-mates sloppy around him.


What I find most hilarious is that he just seem to do anything right. I always thought, which I now realise was obviously a huge misunderstanding, that the mark of a good striker was that they scored goals despite having absolutely abysmal games. He scored the crucial third goal of the game, meaning the game was all but over with his only decent attempt at goal which he all but created for himself. But we can't let that distract us from the fact that his touch and passes were a bit off tonight.

That being my considered opinion, I still can't believe that challenge on Walters and I still can't believe how we didn't score. Play that game another 9 times and we wouldn't lose again.

That's my sentiment as well when I woke up this morning. Usually after a game like that I'm annoyed as hell, pulling out my hair in frustration but today it's not how could we lose or why didn't we win but more of a we'll batter them next season.

[MiserableP15]

Just watching the game again on the website.
Once the dust has settled on the defeat and the anger has subsided, I can't help but feel fairly bittersweet.
We pissed on them from start to finish, and their once chance was created by a backward hoof and a soft pen. Fair enough, shit happens, but overall we played well. In the first five minutes alone we were so incisive down their left with some great football played.
Yes Adam misplaced some passes, but he also sprayed it about well and should have had a couple of assists. Lucas was excellent as always, Downing and Enrique positive, Pepe as sturdy as always. I'd say Dirk and Hendo were our two weakest performers on the day but even they showed good touches.

One thing I noticed was that Stoke seemed to have wised up to Suarez's ability to nutmeg and run through people. I got the distinct impression Pulis had ensured some homework had been done, which if so is fair play. A few times he was one on one with a last defender but didn't manage to get through. Maybe it was just the grass.

Stoke also got away with murder. A number of dirty/late challenges, two missed penalties, one of which was stonewall imho (Delap's), countless last ditch clearances and a soft pen with your one chance to win the game. I worry that they've used up all their luck and when Man Utd turn up for the game they'll scramble a cheap win, but hey, that's just me being pessimistic.

The points don't show it, the result didn't show it, the table doesn't show it, but on the basis of that performance AND the others this season, we have improved. Massively. You're blind if you can't see it.

[Corkboy]

It was very frustrating alright.

Still, teams as good as us or better will go away empty handed from Stoke this season. They are a very formidable team, and against us they defended brilliantly. We had overwhelming possession, playing like the home team and Pepe only had one shot on target to deal with. Pity it was a penalty. As against that, we had numerous chances and on another day could have won comfortably.

Key moment is obviously the penalty. It looked fair enough, Carragher got turned on the wrong side and got a little too intimate with Walters. I won't read too much into that for the purposes of this thread. Whether Carragher is on a downward slope or not, the error could have been committed by Skrtel or Agger, or even Soto, if he were still there. It happens. So, when you are playing against a team who weren't that forward thinking to begin with, conceding an early goal is the equivalent of getting out those airplane conducting things and asking them to beep beep back the bus up along the six yard line. And so they did.

I am much more encouraged by the fact that we fucking battered them than discouraged that we lost. I wouldn't get too down hearted about Henderson's misses or Adam's waywardness or even Suarez' uncharacteristic impotence. We didn't play especially well and we still should have won. Contrast that with our game against them last season. Same result, vastly different game. Onward and upward.

[lachesis]

First of all hats off to Stoke for their defensive tenacity. There were limbs flying everywhere defending that goalmouth and it was like Thermapolyae at times. They narrowed the pitch and it was a bit longer - so what in the grand scheme of things?

I thought Clattenburg had a generally good game throughout. I thought if Carragher had gone down under Walters it was a blatant free kick to us. The arm across making the elbow almost jaw him. Carra tried to stay on his feet by using him as a leverage point and conceded the penalty. You can argue Clatternburg should have pulled play back but this is not a referee or even English problem. It's a football problem seen time and again where play is not brought back when it should be, all over the world.

However, the penalty should have been a footnote in an absolute rout. We struggled to create numerous clear chances but we did have about three or four. Added to that the amount of half chances with the quality of players we have and we really should have filled our boots to coin a phrase.

Downing played well and I honestly couldn't pick out a player in our side that had a 'poor' game. I thought all made their own contribution to a mauling that lacked claws. I thought Kennys subs were made at the right time as well to keep the energy and momentum up.

[sideshowme]

i think i must be alone in not being overly impressed with the performance.  i thought for the first half and the start of the second we were ponderous and a bit directionless.  neither team created much, and the game looked destined for a 0-0 until carra's bizarre positioning and clumsy footwork left him all over the place in the area.

in the second half, we created more, but at the same time that was because stoke (whom i really rate as a team) were sufficiently confident in their ability to sit back and defend their lead that we could commit virtually the whole team forward.  if that many men forward is what we need to create chances then against any more ambitious team we would be torn to shreds.  as it was we looked vulnerable to the sucker punch a few times.

there were undoubtedly positives.  downing and suarez played well, lucas was excellent at taking on the mantle of the otherwise absent midfield, and the bellamy/enrique partnership down the left after just a few minutes looked almost telepathic at times. 

adam and (to a lesser extent) henderson had shockers, but all players do.  henderson's chance was pure poetry in motion, and he is to be applauded for his dynamic running to create the chance.  as i saw it, he tried to dink his first shot over the keeper and mishit it with the inside of his foot rather than his instep.  again these things happen.  my main source of frustration with the chance after the initial shot is the tunnel vision of both henderson and adam not to see the simple pass to an unmarked, better positioned suarez.  why try to score repeatedly through a crowd of players from the edge of the box when there's a player with a clear sight of goal much closer to the target?

more generally, we lack dynamism in midfield when gerrard's out and lucas is occupied with keeping the other team out.   i remember seeing suarez scrapping for the ball on the halfway line towards the end, almost like he was frustrated at the absence of thrust or fluidity and reckoned he was the one to provide it, even when we needed him further up the pitch.  i think bellamy and downing will help provide this from the wings in future, but we could do with some from the middle too.

lucas for captain is a very good shout, but won't ever happen, i don't think.

all in all, not brilliant, not terrible.  the players will learn a lot of lessons but we as fans have to be prepared for the possibility that it may get worse (against spurs) before it gets better.

oh, and kenny's cracking up

[Hinesy]

No I happen to agree with you, we were largely clueless at times and lacked leadership in the middle of the pitch. My initial question asked if people thought there was a Plan B and I hope there is, but that game was partially down to lack of luck in front of goal and on other days we'd a scored a couple. But also we were toothless at times.

[MiserableP15]

SMD,
Your point about Lucas is interesting and well worth discussing. Take away all the issues with Carra's ability and therefore what it means for him to be vice captain and discuss the point purely on where we are as a football team. Pepe, Lucas, Suarez, Agger and even Adam are very much the future and you could argue that the sooner we start building our team around them the better.

We are entering a new era now, perhaps it's time to throw off some of the shackles of our past?

The team is full of captains. Pepe is a natural leader and an incredibly positive squad member. Does Agger captain Denmark? Not sure, but he's clearly a dominant figure on the pitch. Lucas as you say is imperious, and both a calming and positive influence on the pitch and perhaps more importantly a valued role model off it. For me he acts very much as the link between our english and south american players. Adam showed on tour and through his confident play for both us and Blackpool that he has the personality to step up if needed. He also doesn't shirk from responsibility or hide from his mistakes. You then have Bellamy, a known strong character and LFC fan. And didn't Suarez captain Ajax very early in his career with them? He's obviously someone who could step up if needed.

Whether it happens this season or not, I don't know. Regardless of the arguments for and against I don't think it will. However next season I would not be surprised to see some changes, and if it is for both Captain AND Vice Captain, with let's say Lucas and Pepe, then so be it. I'm still hoping however that what Stevie said about his capabilities is true and our buckeneering captain still has 2-3 years at the very top level. If that's the case, then I can easily see only a single change at VC level.

[Groundskeeper Willie]

About the refereeing, what did you all think about Delap´s challenge on Suarez? I think he came in with a straight leg and studs showing.

Should have been at least a yellow and maybe even a red.

[DonkeyWan]

Caveats aside, there are a number of concerns about the side. As much as people like to get excited about the new generation of players, the current level of the side is below that of the team from 2 to 3 years back. Then we had Alonso (Madrid, WC winner) Mascherano (Barcelona, Argentinian captain), Arbeloa (Madrid, WC winner), Torres (Chelsea, WC Winner) and even with that team we could only challenge for the title, not win it. Our most important midfielder at the moment is Lucas, a player who has come to prominence simply because the competition for the center no longer includes Mascherano and Alonso.

That is not to denigrate the current players that are on offer, merely to point out that we are far from being in a position to challenge (how could we be in a position to challenge when Chelsea and City can spend half a billion each on players and United are a PLC allowed to go 3/4 of a billion into debt and still remain profitable?) Liverpool, much as it pains me, are second tier at the minute and will remain so while the game is so sick with money. Its important then, that we assess the current team independently of the likes of United, City and Chelsea (temporarily at least). Why? Because the aim this year (as stated by the owners) is top 4 not to challenge. The players brought in are to get us to top 4, not to challenge. After that stage we can look to supplement the side with key personnel (in the Suarez mould) to take us to the next level.

The current side for me reminds me of the city side last year. Lots of rugged, dependable players that will have ups and downs, but over the course of the season will put us into a position to challenge for top 4. In terms of stoke, what was missing was guile and finishing. Henderson running through 1 on 1 misses his first chance and instead of setting up Suarez with his second touch, blasts the ball into the keeper again and again. That for me is naivety allied to urgency. A calmer, more experienced player would have chosen the right option there. Does that make him a bad player? no. But that does not help the team.

There will be a lot more games like yesterday, where the team plays well but comes up short (either losing or drawing) because of a perceived gap in the quality of the team. its tempting to start singling out players and positions to improve, but essentially what you are doing is moving the meat around the plate to try and cover the porcelain. The meal remains the same. I prefer to take a holistic view of the team and the performances to date; not on a level with the top 3, but more than adequate to challenge for a CL spot. The team, as I see it, are in transition, and making too many demands at this stage is unfair.

That said, the question of a plan B remains. Central to that is the performance of Carroll, a player that was initially seen as a plan A, but poor form and the emergence of Suarez has relegated him to plan B and a pretty poor plan B at that. The problem is when our rather excellent Plan A fails to score (Kuyt and Suarez), off the bench comes Carroll and the team becomes long ball plan B. Fine if actually works, but so far its looked impoverished. Not so much a lack of a plan B then, as a poor alternative to plan A.

The thing that strikes me is that off the bench we have so few players that offer something different. The current crop of midfielders are all quite similar, we lack a mercurial talent like Benayoun, or a maverick like Garcia. Players that are frustrating right up until the point where they do something outrageous and wonderful. So, not so much a gap on the pitch in playing personnel, rather a gap on the bench in something completely different. Perhaps that is at the next stage of development. The question marks over Carroll are more serious though, a hugely expensive asset we can ill afford to have not performing. He hangs like a drunken, pony-tailed Sword of Damocles over the team.

[Sabu Pundit]

my scouse Libpole she bin Force Fett the Immodium isn’t it by Stalk FC so now our runs is finish an’ up sheet creak in general WRITHES SABU PUNDIT.

Oh so Mutch pain is Kaurs after the long an’ whiney road of  beat-lessness, this endless an’ season-long Ms Camel Parka-Bose (i.e odd hussy) that be compromised of… three gems. Is any wander fan gnashin’ them tooth an’ Beattie the brest? It terror ball surprise an’ Finnish all over sodden, like Y-front after view the Strictly Came booty queens.

Said result was insult isn’t  an’ Sabu had an in fury ate what is shore way ruin any meal time. Scorn line less fair than Balzac off Idi Amin an’ ain’t talkin’ French lettre either. As them say in Vickstorian Inglan “What the Degens” wiv’ this Stalky & Co’s  JUAN shot up tarred git an’ THAT was the penile tea this a cock an’ balls story an’ no  mistake who cod have an’ Adam an’ Eve?  Our parrot dice is lust.

Loyal but increase lose cannon, the Red Guard, Mr Carrot Grower make frankly agriculture farm hand cowboy challenge that in curse the wrath Mr Ma Clapham-Burk.  Wot need make this vile grope, this pubed lick spectacle of cede the spotted kick, he rally forked it up this thyme. Why CarrotGrower giftin’ the chants for Stalky striker pathetic chuckin’ self to deck he is Mr Pussy Thrower innit the Bloo Pitta garden slave.  Keep son of soil, dirty fingered nail horny hand off, Carrot, or you endanger go way off Kulaks.

Mata make worsted buy SARS Tory-hole clammy tea off 21st century. He ain’t no tin age (he closer Stoned Age). He ain’t no Empty Hummer, or Enema, or other wrapper.  Him ain’t no long Distin truck drivel. SO WHY Mr Toady Police where such head Gere? Sabu don’t want sound like sum Grot Won or other Petty Woman, but this more fashion bleak Wynter than Fashion-Easter. An’ WHY Canny Sahib not perform scissor kick an’ de-capitate?  Thank you very much.

[Lofty Ambitions]

That is not to denigrate the current players that are on offer, merely to point out that we are far from being in a position to challenge (how could we be in a position to challenge when Chelsea and City can spend half a billion each on players and United are a PLC allowed to go 3/4 of a billion into debt and still remain profitable?) Liverpool, much as it pains me, are second tier at the minute and will remain so while the game is so sick with money. Its important then, that we assess the current team independently of the likes of United, City and Chelsea (temporarily at least). Why? Because the aim this year (as stated by the owners) is top 4 not to challenge. The players brought in are to get us to top 4, not to challenge. After that stage we can look to supplement the side with key personnel (in the Suarez mould) to take us to the next level.

The above reminded me of a Tomkins article I read during the summer. Here it is: http://tomkinstimes.com/2011/08/lfc-season-preview-time-to-go-fourth/

In particular (Tiers by me, mind you)

2011/12 SQ£ (so far)

Tier 1:
£463,364,980 Chelsea
£429,249,525 Man City
£400,273,930 Man Utd

Tier 2:
£231,741,856 Liverpool
£227,373,672 Spurs
£165,881,468 Arsenal

Tier 3:
£115,112,914 Aston Villa
£106,825,203 Everton
£105,658,666 Sunderland
£78,851,457 Newcastle
£72,550,959 Fulham    

Tier 4:
£53,234,212 Wolves
£48,782,767 Wigan
£46,417,927Stoke
£44,657,002 Blackburn   
£40,861,401 Bolton
£27,804,342 West Brom

You can punch above your weight only so many times. Considering the above, it is quite clear why Top Four and not Title is the goal of the season.  The stats should also make a clear reminder our 08/09 title run was nothing sort of a miracle that it was.

Given how settled the Scum are, for an example, it should be obvious that a serious title run should not be expected of us for another two seasons at least.

I mean, do expect us to try our hardest to win each game. But do not expect to win every game.

Saying that does not ease the pain of Stoke defeat, of course. But it should put in perspective. At least that is what I tell myself.

[itsgunnabebarnes!]

Im relatively happy with the display, but one thing stuck out for me and that was Composure. We lacked it. Lucas and Adam lacked it on the ball with stages through the game where they gave the ball away cheaply.

Composure in the final third - we looked rushed at everything, from Henderson's finish to the lack of any composure around the box throughout the game. Chances were there but composure in front of goal let us down.

Like i said i think we played well overall and certainly deserved a point maybe all three, but the only other period we have played badly this season was second half against Sunderland, again where we lost all composure on the ball. Yes we were pressed hard, but composure on the ball is must.

[SMD]

Our parrot dice is lust.

*awe*

[koptician]

Caveats aside, there are a number of concerns about the side. As much as people like to get excited about the new generation of players, the current level of the side is below that of the team from 2 to 3 years back. Then we had Alonso (Madrid, WC winner) Mascherano (Barcelona, Argentinian captain), Arbeloa (Madrid, WC winner), Torres (Chelsea, WC Winner) and even with that team we could only challenge for the title, not win it. Our most important midfielder at the moment is Lucas, a player who has come to prominence simply because the competition for the center no longer includes Mascherano and Alonso.

That is not to denigrate the current players that are on offer, merely to point out that we are far from being in a position to challenge (how could we be in a position to challenge when Chelsea and City can spend half a billion each on players and United are a PLC allowed to go 3/4 of a billion into debt and still remain profitable?) Liverpool, much as it pains me, are second tier at the minute and will remain so while the game is so sick with money. Its important then, that we assess the current team independently of the likes of United, City and Chelsea (temporarily at least). Why? Because the aim this year (as stated by the owners) is top 4 not to challenge. The players brought in are to get us to top 4, not to challenge. After that stage we can look to supplement the side with key personnel (in the Suarez mould) to take us to the next level.

The current side for me reminds me of the city side last year. Lots of rugged, dependable players that will have ups and downs, but over the course of the season will put us into a position to challenge for top 4. In terms of stoke, what was missing was guile and finishing. Henderson running through 1 on 1 misses his first chance and instead of setting up Suarez with his second touch, blasts the ball into the keeper again and again. That for me is naivety allied to urgency. A calmer, more experienced player would have chosen the right option there. Does that make him a bad player? no. But that does not help the team.

There will be a lot more games like yesterday, where the team plays well but comes up short (either losing or drawing) because of a perceived gap in the quality of the team. its tempting to start singling out players and positions to improve, but essentially what you are doing is moving the meat around the plate to try and cover the porcelain. The meal remains the same. I prefer to take a holistic view of the team and the performances to date; not on a level with the top 3, but more than adequate to challenge for a CL spot. The team, as I see it, are in transition, and making too many demands at this stage is unfair.

That said, the question of a plan B remains. Central to that is the performance of Carroll, a player that was initially seen as a plan A, but poor form and the emergence of Suarez has relegated him to plan B and a pretty poor plan B at that. The problem is when our rather excellent Plan A fails to score (Kuyt and Suarez), off the bench comes Carroll and the team becomes long ball plan B. Fine if actually works, but so far its looked impoverished. Not so much a lack of a plan B then, as a poor alternative to plan A.

The thing that strikes me is that off the bench we have so few players that offer something different. The current crop of midfielders are all quite similar, we lack a mercurial talent like Benayoun, or a maverick like Garcia. Players that are frustrating right up until the point where they do something outrageous and wonderful. So, not so much a gap on the pitch in playing personnel, rather a gap on the bench in something completely different. Perhaps that is at the next stage of development. The question marks over Carroll are more serious though, a hugely expensive asset we can ill afford to have not performing. He hangs like a drunken, pony-tailed Sword of Damocles over the team.

Your assessment of the team is exactly what I feel.  This current crop is a step in the journey, not the destination.  We can't make up the chasm of a gap that has opened up since we lost Alonson (and has widened with the lost of Mascherano, Torres).  The clear-out of deadwood again was an acknowledgement of this.  We're progressively going to get better each transfer window.  We don't necessarily need to go for the very highest profile player like Hazard but look for semi-hidden gems like Suarez or Alonso or players who have a bit of a question mark on them like Torres did while at Atletico.  I think for this season, to achieve 4th we have enough guile and creativity with Suarez, Downing, Bellamy, and Adam.  Of course Johnson/Kelly, and Enrique will contribute to that as well. 
I am however concerned about our finishing.  Ultimately it's the finishing that has cost us against Stoke and that won't be the first time. We don't have a clinical deadeye finisher now that we don't have Torres and that needs looking at.  I hope/pray Carroll is the solution but Kenny has to first figure out how to marry him to the rest of the team to get the best out of him.

[Hinesy]

Scorn line less fair than Balzac off Idi Amin

ha ha

[Roy of the rovers]

Best preview and summary of the game I've seen is here

http://www.eplindex.com/category/liverpool-fc/

The long and the short of it is that we did the right things and got a bit unlucky, but it's worth the read for the insight.

[barneystuta]

Best preview and summary of the game I've seen is here

http://www.eplindex.com/category/liverpool-fc/

The long and the short of it is that we did the right things and got a bit unlucky, but it's worth the read for the insight.

The LFCAnalyst is brilliant, read his previews/reviews all the time.

[Grobbelrevell]

'Frustrating', is a word that summed this game up.

Frustration at the fact that we dominated virtually from start to finish on a ground that many (including us) routinely struggle on. That we carved out (at least) a hand-full of clear-cut chances and failed to take any of them due to what appeared to be a lack of composure from our players as well as awareness of the situation around them.

Our play was fragmented at times. It lacked the cohesion, crispness and tempo that we've seen previously under Kenny. We seemed rushed, especially after going behind and that led to us giving the ball away cheaply in situations where we could and should have retained posession and waited for a better opening to appear.

Virtually all of the above though, can be accredited as symptoms of a team in transition. It's very easy to forget that we're currently looking to bed in around five new players that have been at the club for no more than a month. Not only into the squad, but into the starting line-up and that was always likely to result in a scattering of this kind of performance. We will likely see a few more like this before the season's out as well but I, for one, will not be down-hearted if we continue to show the promise that we did in this game, despite the frustrations that i've mentioned above.

In terms of positives then, the very fact that we dominated this game in the manner that we did is encouraging in itself. You only need to compare this game with the corresponding fixture from last season to have the difference highlighted:

2010/2011
2011/2012

Possession (%):
Stoke: 64
Stoke: 41
Liverpool: 36
Liverpool 59

Shots on goal:
Stoke: 14
Stoke: 3
Liverpool: 10
Liverpool: 20

Shots on target:
Stoke: 7
Stoke: 1
Liverpool: 6
Liverpool: 11

Corners:
Stoke: 4
Stoke: 2
Liverpool: 3
Liverpool: 12

Both the same result, but vastly different games.

We also kept going right until the final whistle, which led to a frantic last few minutes for Stoke - as well as that last gasp chance for Suarez. On another day he tucks that away and we leave the stadium praising our 'never say die' attitude.

Another positive from the game for me, which actually falls into the question posed relating to our 'Plan B', is the fact that Andy Carroll came on from the bench and unlike previous appearances, this didn't result in an instant change of style to the percentage ball up-field. Whereas previously criticism has, in some quarters, been aimed towards some of our players for taking the easy option with Carroll in the side and playing these percentage balls to his head, in this game, that didn't happen to any obvious extent and our style remained the same.

Whether or not we have a 'Plan B' is open to debate right now. If we have, it hasn't thus far been overly evident. Or has it and we're simply overlooking it and rather than the players taking 'the easy way out', are they being schooled in utilising Andy's aerial ability as a planned change of style?

I do believe that Andy Carroll and Jamie Carragher are the two biggest question marks in our squad as things stand though for one reason or another (probably for another thread though).

I also think the points made by others in relation to our expectations are relevent here as well. It's very easy to compare ourselves with the two Manchester clubs (and to a lesser extent, Chelsea) and as with this weekend, see them both chalk up large scores and impressive victories in comparison to our frustrating outing and react to that in a way that fails to recognise where we are in terms of our long term plan. Which is, unfortunately, some way off these particular clubs.

The fact that we have a plan is a start. We didn't twelve months ago, that's for sure. We are also making impressive progress when you consider where we were those mere twelve months ago. There are far more positives than negatives, without a doubt.

[Danyaals Kop]

1) What I am interested in is this: without Gerrard on the field, it was clear that no player took a leading role yesterday. We didn't impose ourselves on the midfield nor the game. Is it that because no-one is capable or is it because no-one wants to, knowing Gerrard is coming back to play ?

The things is, no one stepped up. But when the time comes, it's not about one player standing up and sending a message. In situations like these, all those players on the pitch should have shown they had as Wenger says, 'character'. This is because at the end of the day, it takes someone special to have an influence over all and Carragher does not have that ability. Suarez is still settling properly to the game, nearly the half players who were on the pitch still need to settle to the Liverpool Way, if not understand it. The team we have at the moment is not like what it used to be, a 'one man team'. Lone gone are the days when we could rely only upon Gerrard. This team needs to understand that Gerrard is not always going to be on the pitch for them. Kenny has assembled a group of young players that still do need nourishing. I'll take a regretful but true example in the shape of the current United team. All are young but and if you look at them individually, they still look normal. They win because they play for each other, the fans, the manager. Our team still needs that to be drummed into their heads. Exactly, like Shankly once said, if I'm correct, 'the players know how grateful they should be to be playing for you, I have drummed it into their heads that they play for the fans'. The team needs to know it that they need to play, if the fans that Liverpool have can't provide that inspiration to them and a manager who understands Liverpool such as Kenny can't make them understand, then shit... Inspiration can come in many forms as well as leadership. That team should play for each other, not consider one to provide excellence to them and have to take the game to a single player to take the game into his own hand.

2) Also, when teams like Stoke (who by the way, didn't just play all shithouse football but had Pennant running nicely at times and Jones holding the ball properly and well) defend a tiny lead at the back the way they did, and press consistently, where's and what's our plan B? One of the first round tables asked, do we have a plan B? Well I didn't see any evidence of it yesterday.

Can't really establish an answer yet, again, sorry. But, I think there is a hint when Kenny bought Bellamy on the last day to show that he will be prepared to shuffle things around such as use the pace of Bellamy for Carroll or sacrificing a winger... There are many possibilities but you can't determine them since :

- The question was raised during the game against Sunderland...
- Our Plan B against Arsenal came in the shape of Suarez as an impact sub and Raul's ability to provide support.
- We won our league cup game with ease
- No need of a Plan B against Bolton
- Experimenting with Bellamy and Carroll at the end against Stoke.

On this basis, and needing more time to judge an answer, I will come to a conclusion that as new opposition will come, there will be new Plan B's.

3) Finally bad day at the office or genuine worry about areas of the park?

Bad day at the office.

A bit of a reality shock to us, but dear me, their pitch was absolutely woeful. Our players failed to pick up the rhythm but and it was a very frustraing game with all the chances being wasted. One thing that pisses me off was the Henderson negativity by the fans after the game. Two weeks ago, he seems to be the future and after the game, negativity. Really shocking that was, he's only 21 and has a lot of time to mature in to a great play.

I'm defintely sure we will bounce back with a great result against Spurs.

Danyaals Kop®

[Greebo62]

Been letting my thoughts percolate a bit on this one.  Can't say I was too upset on Caturday, but given I'd spent the morning and early afternoon in bed with a monster of a migraine and only surfaced just in time to plug the laptop into the tv and sign on to liveonlinefooty, that's hardly surprising.  To say I wasn't totally focussed on the match all day would be a major understatement!

Thought we were clearly by far and away the better team, but could also see how the length of the grass made it difficult for us to play our normal game.  Even simple passes were dragging up short, and that puts extra strain on the legs and the calf muscles in trying to push the ball a bit harder, leading to passes going astray.  Also makes it difficult to get a clean strike on the ball when making longer passes or shooting - don't think enough has been thought about that element (will we now see Wigan, Blackburn, Wolves, etc letting their pitches grow longer??  Hmmm)

Can't be too surprised at either twattenburg giving Stoke a pen, or refusing to give us one or two or red card Delap for his studs up lunge on Lucas. As it's been said before, he's got previous.  It also wasnt a surprise that Carra gave the pen away (it was a pen, even if a soft one).  I think that Carra is almost always going to get targetted and often caught out by teams looking perhaps to secure a soft penalty.  I'm not a knee jerker, but I do think his lack of pace, creativity and general clumsiness are starting to become a liability outweighing his positives of organisational ability and leadership (if that ever was there).  I'm too long in the tooth to worry about whether he'll sulk if he's dropped, but I think its about time to do so. 

I also think that, whether Carra is dropped or not, Lucas should be Captain.  Not temporarily, but permanently.  The boy (man) is so mature and so much a leader in a quiet, supportive and completely professional way.  It's time, Kenny.  Lucas will be a giant with the armband on.  Trust me.

Bad day at the office?  Maybe.  I think if we can keep this style of play up, we'll soon start handing out a few tonkings.  Unfortunately, confidence, or lack of it can do cruel things, so we'll just have to see.  Even so, when I consider how completely and utterly abject we were last season at the Brittannia....  life is so much sweeter to be able to say we were SO much the better team, and the stats read like a training session of Attack vs Defence, so I'm not complaining.

Do we need a Plan B?  Not sure we do.  What we do need is the confidence and ruthlessness to put away some of the chances we're creating with our great football.  We'll be fine.  Lets not forget that other teams will also drop points at place like Stoke.  As I keep reminding folks, in the 70s and 80s, we didn't always win and we didn't always play brilliant footie.  We still won enough to win the league most years and have a shout at some other silverware (remember when Wembley was known as Anfield South anyone?).  I see definite signs that the style and commitment of that era is coming back.  Onwards and upwards redmen.  Lets plant the spuds in their backyard and send a message to the rest.

YNWA

[disainit]

Adam had his least good game for us, Carragher had a couple of slips of judgement and the whole team appeared unteamlike. We were distracted and disjointed. That much is clear.

Didn't really see it that way. We played lovely pass and move for the most part. If I recall correctly, it was only past middle of second half that the team looked a little jittery. Or maybe I was feeling the jitters and saw it that way. Adam did well. His passes were conservative and pinpoint accurate, and there was little of the nonsense we've had had to put up with in earlier games. Carragher shouldn't have held on like he did, but Skrtel was guilty of the same crime on a few occasions.

Without Gerrard on the field, it was clear that no player took a leading role yesterday. We didn't impose ourselves on the midfield nor the game. Is it that because no-one is capable or is it because no-one wants to, knowing Gerrard is coming back to play?

I thought we imposed well. We were playing in their half for the most part, and closed down all their attacks. Suarez was in the thick of everything, so I guess he was taking that role. But everyone else was doing their part. Downing, Kuyt, Lucas, Adam, Henderson,.. they all contributed to making our machine well oiled and running. It's hard to see how Gerrard could have changed the outcome of the game had he played.

Also, when teams like Stoke (who by the way, didn't just play all shithouse football but had Pennant running nicely at times and Jones holding the ball properly and well) defend a tiny lead at the back the way they did, and press consistently...

I'm afraid they did play shithouse football, to be honest. In very rare instances they threatened, the were quickly dispossessed.

Finally bad day at the office or genuine worry about areas of the park?

We controlled the park. Suarez was getting a lot of service, but blew a couple of clear chances. Nothing against the lad - it was just down to bad luck. Henderson had a one-on-one with the goalie, courtesy of a brilliant through ball from Enrique. Tactically, it reminded me of the good old days under Rafa when we pressed high up and kept the opposition pissing their pants in their own half. We should have won but we didn't.

[SMD]

I'm surprised at the lack of responses. Is it because we lost? Or people vented already so don't feel the need to comment? Or everything that could be said has already been said in and around the media?

[itsgunnabebarnes!]

More likely no one sees the topic when its pinned.

[MiserableP15]

I'm surprised at the lack of responses. Is it because we lost? Or people vented already so don't feel the need to comment? Or everything that could be said has already been said in and around the media?

More IGBB's comment maybe, and a bit of yours SMD. Took me ages to start noticing the stickies at the top of the thread properly when I joined RAWK plus as you say, I think everyone's moaned their main grievances in the main topic thread and is now looking forward to Spurs. Shame really. Maybe you should start a thread in the main section on the captain debate - although I think we know what a double edged sword that would be!

[John C]

I'm surprised at the lack of responses. Is it because we lost? Or people vented already so don't feel the need to comment? Or everything that could be said has already been said in and around the media?

  I'm one of the guilty posters SMD, although I've been on RAWK a lot this week I've neglected to apply myself to a reasoned judgement on the game.
I'm sure hinesy won't mind a simple phrase being used rather than over analysis so late in the week, but 'shit happens'.

It was a pen.
I'm not entirely sure we deserved one - I've been angst by worse decisions, regularly over the last 4 years.
Adam had an off-day, although no one shone.
Henderson should have taken his chance despite excuses being made for him.
Kenny should have made changes a tiny bit earlier.
But overall we gave them a talking to in their own backyard despite it being as narrow as a terraced house patio guarded solidly by 2 uncompromising banks of 4 wheelie bins which will never resemble purple.

Even though we had them pinned back regularly, we still didn't or couldn't fully use so many of our options. Johnson (or Kelly) SG, Carroll, Bellamy and even Maxi - all players that will make a difference later in the season.
And that's what the Stoke game lacked, someone to make a difference.

[shelovesyou]

Think it was a Pen to be honest, having looked at it a couple of times now.
I dont buy all this 'Carra's a liability' nonsense though. Yes he has lost pace and struggles at times
but you counter that with his organisation and commitment.

Henderson had a poor game, compared to what he's done previously and compounded that by the missed chance.
A little more composure and you chip the keeper.

Suarez was quite quiet at times , as was Kuyt but you have to credit Stoke's defence and game plan, we may not like it but its there to be broken and we couldnt do that.
More clinical finsihing is a must for the future.
Was surprised by Carrolls absence, perhaps a mistake on Kenny's part, I dont know just would of been ideal for him.

We can take lots of positives, we are still only 4 games in with a new team who need time.
Not an easy fixture by any stretch.

[Garcepticon]

I'm posting this because I think there is a misconception about 'unlocking a defense'. I don't believe that our team needs a player who can 'produce a spark' (or something of the sort), one of the lads on the AnfieldWrap was saying how we lacked a Meireles, and DonkeyWan said the same about needing a Benayoun but i think teams are far more potent in attack when they have team movement. Anyway, I believe that the most effective way to unlock defenses and create chances is through team movement and passing. Look at City, they look immensely dangerous in this regard when the combination of Nasri, Aguero, Silva and Dzeko is in full flow. Same goes for Barcelona, it is not just Messi dropping deep, it is Dani Alves' runs down the flank, the movement of Pedro etc which makes them so formidable. 

So, if you take my belief and apply it to Liverpool we should be fine for unlocking defenses when the team gels, the problem is that the players aren't settled enough but when they are they should learn each others games and be more efficient passing and moving. Kuyt, Suarez, Downing, Henderson, Bellamy, Carroll, Maxi etc all are good attacking players and once they have built a rapport the movement should become more fluid and we will become much more effective at unlocking teams. Look at us post United at Anfield our movement was devastating with Maxi Meireles Suarez and Kuyt, and I'd put the trouncing of birmingham, Fulham etc down, not to individual skill, but intelligent team movement.

[zabadoh]

We lacked creative passing in the final third.  This is where we could have used Meireles in the squad to unlock that parked bus and play some pass and move in tight quarters with Suarez.  You could see how frustrated Suarez was getting towards the end with the lack of service. 

Adam isn't that person because he lacks foot burst speed and he prefers to sit further back to play long passes.  Closest I can think would be Henderson, but I think they've instructed him to look to put in crosses.  Carroll seems to have feet of lead right now, but I still think we're not using him correctly by keeping him too tight to our opponents' back line instead of giving him some space to build up his speed for a run. 

IMO out of our fit players, Maxi could be the missing link to Suarez (and Kuyt) that we need for such games.

Stoke played a classic counterattacking game:  Sit back and wait for us to expose ourselves in trying to break them down, then counterattack with deadly speed, if somewhat uneven passing.  Fair play to them, that's what caused the penalty on Carra.

[Hinesy]

onwards and upwards.. non stickied.

[daveguapo77]

Re: Round the table, Stoke 1-0 Liverpool
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2011, 09:22:41 AM »

    Quote

"About the refereeing, what did you all think about Delap´s challenge on Suarez? I think he came in with a straight leg and studs showing.

Should have been at least a yellow and maybe even a red."
to me that was a straight red, they didn't even show that on match of the day , also the foul on skrtel as he took the shot that went wide was horrific, could've easy brokem his ankle, and shouldve been a penalty,but again, there was hardly a mention and no replay on motd, because of the highlights not showing a lot of the bad tackles stoke made,i've been accused of being a bad loser about moaning about the way stoke play, watch the WHOLE match again and tell me stoke didnt get away with murder in some of their tackles. i honestly can take gettin beat, but not in such a snide way
"