Topic: General Political discussion with kesey-style vibes & tantric breathing stuff...

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

Nothing antisemitic here?

“My fanbase has shown scant regard for appropriate parliamentary language, so I apologise in advance. ‘Hang yourself you vile treacherous Zionist Tory filth, you’re a cancer of humanity’. ‘Ruth Smeeth is a Zionist, she has no shame and trades on the murder of Jews by Hitler, who the Zionists betrayed’. ‘Ruth Smeeth must surely be travelling first class to Tel Aviv with all that slush. After all, she’s complicit in trying to bring Corbyn down’.”

Digusting.

Who has said/written this?

Is it a labour M.P. or is it some random nutter who has signed up as a Labour supporter?

[classycarra]

I'm saying that people will use anything, and I mean anything, as a political football. I don't blame them.
...
I maintain that the calls of antisemitism are, in the main, bogus.

In amongst your torrent of barely coherent posts, these parts are most instructive. But not about the people you’re criticising and calling liars, but of you.

You’re judging people who’ve been on the receiving end of intolerance by your own standards for how you’d behave. It reflects pretty terribly on your character and honesty, and the level you’d be willing to sink to, for the sake of a politician you like.

[TepidT2O]

Digusting.

Who has said/written this?

Is it a labour M.P. or is it some random nutter who has signed up as a Labour supporter?

All things sent to Ruth Smeeth.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

All things sent to Ruth Smeeth.

Don't understand.

So again...

Who has said/written this?

Is it a labour M.P. or is it some random nutter who has signed up as a Labour supporter?

[Red-Soldier]

Don't understand.

So again...

Who has said/written this?

Is it a labour M.P. or is it some random nutter who has signed up as a Labour supporter?

I think it's that.

Have a read of this to understand what the issues of antsemitism really are with the Labour party:

https://www.hopenothate.org.uk/2019/02/15/overview/

The Labour Party continues to be embroiled in its antisemitism scandal, which sadly is mostly of its own making. While it is undoubtedly true that its opponents have publicly exploited as anyone involved in politics would exploit problems in their opposition, the fact remains that a few Labour Party members and supporters, from the top to the bottom, have either engaged in antisemitism and the party has a whole has failed to deal with issues as they arise.

Central to Labour’s problem has been Jeremy Corybn himself, whether that is his conflation of his anti- Israeli position with the Jewish people more generally, his repeated presence in the company of Holocaust Deniers and anti-Semites, his failure to apologise for his past statements or associations and his complete lack of empathy with the concern of his own Jewish MPs and activists and the wider Jewish community more generally.

Even his own closest advisers privately admit that his handling of the antisemitism row has only made matters worse.

Of course, the overwhelming majority of Labour Party members, supporters and MPs are not antisemities, and as research on conspiracy theories shows, those people who voted UKIP in 2015, which is four million people, are far more likely to believe in Jewish conspiracies than Labour voters. Indeed, there is virtually no difference between the number of Labour voters who believe in anti-Jewish conspiracies than Conservative Party voters.

However, left wing antisemitism on the left is very real amongst a small but very vocal group of people.
A study of thousands of left wing social media accounts by HOPE not hate shows gives a glimpse into the extent of the problem. While overt antisemitism and Holocaust Denial is uncommon, a larger group engage in conspiratorial antisemitism and use antisemitic tropes, especially in relation to supposed Jewish power, and an even larger group are involved in denying a problem exists and dismissing the issue as a right wing and Zionist smear.

[Red Beret]

I think - although the point seems extremely muddled - that Antoine is saying these people aren't really anti Semitic; they're just using anti Semitic abuse to hurt people in the meanest way. Like calling someone fatty or four eyes

The old Labour threads are full of examples if he wants to check. I'm getting the impression that he thinks Twitter doesn't count though, because that's full of trolls anyway.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

I think it's that.

That's what I understand has happened. It's virtually impossible to stop this happening or control it. Any nutter can sign up to the labour party and post what they want. Sure they then can then be removed, but the post will remain, or someone will have taken a screenshot and preserved it.

[classycarra]

It's virtually impossible to stop this happening or control it.

With inaction and no desire it definitely is, yeah.

[Zeb]

That's what I understand has happened. It's virtually impossible to stop this happening or control it. Any nutter can sign up to the labour party and post what they want. Sure they then can then be removed, but the post will remain, or someone will have taken a screenshot and preserved it.

I think there's a set of interlinked problems. You're right, the party can only take action after the fact if there are no signs when someone applies for membership or even isn't actually a member of the party, but there's also an issue about the culture which has been helped created online, and off it, by people directly briefed by the Labour leadership. That's one part of it which needs dealing with. And that does link back to real world interactions where people thrown out for antisemitism are feted by members and have their views amplified by members and those 'hangers-on'.

So you need effective internal party processes, which people can generally have confidence in working appropriately, but you also need a clearer moral lead being taken where it's very clear what is and isn't considered appropriate behaviour to be associated with the Labour party.

There's also a broader point beyond any particular racism in there too about use of language and our willingness to debate points rather than heap abuse on people. Tom Watson picked up on that this morning I noticed.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

I think - although the point seems extremely muddled - that Antoine is saying these people aren't really anti Semitic; they're just using anti Semitic abuse to hurt people in the meanest way. Like calling someone fatty or four eyes

The old Labour threads are full of examples if he wants to check. I'm getting the impression that he thinks Twitter doesn't count though, because that's full of trolls anyway.

id say he’s just sticking his fingers in his ears

[Dr. Beaker]

I think there's a set of interlinked problems. You're right, the party can only take action after the fact if there are no signs when someone applies for membership or even isn't actually a member of the party, but there's also an issue about the culture which has been helped created online, and off it, by people directly briefed by the Labour leadership. That's one part of it which needs dealing with. And that does link back to real world interactions where people thrown out for antisemitism are feted by members and have their views amplified by members and those 'hangers-on'.

So you need effective internal party processes, which people can generally have confidence in working appropriately, but you also need a clearer moral lead being taken where it's very clear what is and isn't considered appropriate behaviour to be associated with the Labour party.

There's also a broader point beyond any particular racism in there too about use of language and our willingness to debate points rather than heap abuse on people. Tom Watson picked up on that this morning I noticed.

Could you elaborate on the bolded bit please Zeb. Not being a tweeter I think I miss out on stuff.

[jillcwhomever]

So is there antisemitism? and Where? I dont believe it has been answered.

Maybe you should have a conversation with Luciana Berger about that? What she has suffered has been real, nothing imagined nothing made up, but I guess you don't seem able to cope with reality so I'm guessing it would be a waste of time.

[Red Beret]

In amongst your torrent of barely coherent posts, these parts are most instructive. But not about the people you’re criticising and calling liars, but of you.

You’re judging people who’ve been on the receiving end of intolerance by your own standards for how you’d behave. It reflects pretty terribly on your character and honesty, and the level you’d be willing to sink to, for the sake of a politician you like.

You only have to look at Trump.  Yes, politics can be a nasty business and you need a thick skin.  But when there is absolutely no depth you will sink to, no weapon you will not use, to humiliate, berate, intimidate, threaten and harass an opponent?  That's not politics. 

That's evil.  That's vile.  That's bullying.

If you take Trump, first he took on his Republican challengers; then he knocked down Hilary.  Since then, he's gone after the Justice Department, his own intelligence operatives, the media.  He will stop at nothing because not enough people have the power to stop him. 

Fortunately, Corbyn's people don't have the same kind of reach; the MSM remain implacably hostile towards him.  But the basic element of purging - using lies, professed ignorance, and the most base insults to drive out anyone and everyone who doesn't agree with the narrative you're trying to push - is identical. 

Corbyn lacks the public support to do much more than damage his own party's standing, but but given that he is pro-Brexit it's something of an irrelevance.  He enjoys some measure of reflective influence through the Brexiteers on the government benches.  If it wasn't for Brexit, he'd be an utter irrelevance by now.

[Red Beret]

id say he’s just sticking his fingers in his ears

"I don't really think you don't have human blood, but if it upsets you and drives you out of the party so we can get control of it, then of course I'll say it.  It's not personal, just business.  I mean, honestly, some of my best friends are Jewish..."


He's trying to claim it's just smack talk.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Maybe you should have a conversation with Luciana Berger about that? What she has suffered has been real, nothing imagined nothing made up, but I guess you don't seem able to cope with reality so I'm guessing it would be a waste of time.

Or this

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/resurgent-militant-gets-back-to-its-1980s-work-purging-liverpool-cfr9f57kc

Resurgent Militant gets back to its 1980s work — purging Liverpool

Luciana Berger isn’t the only Merseyside MP threatened by the hard left


Save
It is the secret investigation of a Liverpool constituency Labour group that was never published. A devastating report on bullying — or “uncomradely behaviour” — reveals why the party in this former Militant-run city is in the grip of its worst infighting in 30 years.

Written by senior party staff, it states that a female Jewish MP was “physically threatened”, called a “JLM [Jewish Labour Movement] bitch” and made to endure “obsessive interrogations” about Israel-Palestine at every meeting. It found members “feared for their own or others’ physical safety”. Activists entered meetings “without proof of membership”, hounded longstanding members, and accused Israel of being responsible for Isis, Hamas and al-Qaeda.

“Incidents of anti-semitism seem to have occurred with troubling regularity,” the report, approved by Labour’s national executive committee (NEC), stated. Yet the woman was not Luciana Berger, who quit Labour for the Independent Group last week saying she was too “ashamed” to stay any longer.

Instead it was Louise Ellman, 73, also Jewish, whose Liverpool Riverside constituency adjoins Berger’s. A former Open University lecturer, Ellman has represented its people for more than two decades. Now Ellman, like several other Merseyside Labour MPs fighting a resurgent left, faces a decision: should she follow Berger in Wavertree and Frank Field across the Mersey in Birkenhead and leave the party — or face deselection.

Ellman’s local party chairman has publicly said she must go. He told colleagues recently: “It’s time for a change. MPs shouldn’t have a job for life — because there are MPs in this city campaigning to undermine Jeremy Corbyn.”


In reply, the veteran MP has warned of a return to tactics deployed by the Trotskyist group Militant during its 1980s takeover of Liverpool city council.

Yet the activists alleged to have bullied her control all levers of the local party and at a meeting on Friday, they discussed a new phase in their takeover: reversing reforms imposed by the NEC following its investigation in 2017. They will now seek to remove the new delegate structure and approve a policy of an unlimited number of members attending key local meetings, defying the official three-year “cooling off” period.

Last night Ellman appeared resigned. “I have had strong ties with the Labour Party over a very long period. I am still fighting the party’s failure to deal with anti-semitism but I am struggling to deal with the current situation,” she said.

It appears to be no coincidence that the left has sought to deselect two Jewish MPs. But other figures in Merseyside politics also face extreme pressure. One is the mayor of Liverpool, Joe Anderson, who is careful to avoid criticising Corbyn. “I know what it’s like,” he said. “Not like Luciana does with anti-semitism, but to get that abuse.

“When I defended the fact we had to work with the Conservative government and I wouldn’t set an illegal budget, I was called a ‘fat c***’ at a public meeting,” he said.

Anderson, 61, added: “I’ve had demonstrations outside my house . . . people with megaphones, because G4S [the security firm] had a contract with us [the council] and also do business in Israel.”

The culture of abuse means Anderson, a self-styled “sensible socialist”, is talked about as a target for deselection. Derek Hatton, 71, the city’s deputy council leader in the Militant 1980s, has been half-jokingly mentioned as a successor, although others say he could run against Berger. Moderate MPs such as Stephen Twigg, Maria Eagle and Angela Eagle face suspicion in their own constituency parties in West Derby, Garston & Halewood and Wallasey.

The long-serving Labour MP Frank Field, 76, resigned last summer: he sits as an independent for Birkenhead. “It’s a totalitarian party, Trotskyite to the core,” he said. “I cannot in good faith tell Jews, or anyone for that matter, that a vote for me is a vote for Jeremy Corbyn.”

Asked if he would stand against a Labour candidate, Field said: “There should be an open primary, so people can decide who they want their Labour candidate to be before an election.”

Since he quit, abuse in what used to be Field’s local party has intensified. When one councillor resigned recently, citing bullying, a handful of fellow councillors applauded her bravery.

In response, the head of the Labour group initiated disciplinary proceedings and demanded that everyone who applauded attend an interview to decide their future and declare their loyalty to Corbyn. They then received an email that said: “We have received information that raises concerns about your conduct, including . . . breaches of the party rules.”

Field said: “This Militant-style behaviour builds on a proud spirit of radicalism in Liverpool but distorts it.”

A Labour source said NEC decisions could not be overruled at a local level.

[Zeb]

Could you elaborate on the bolded bit please Zeb. Not being a tweeter I think I miss out on stuff.

Just in relation to antisemitism. One of the principle avenues for dismissing the concerns of the Jewish community the past few years, or to portray it all as being a politically motivated smear campaign, has been through the 'alt-left' online circus. And politically motivated smears need attacking and debunking which then leads to further antisemitism from people filled with righteous indignation and who often would genuinely benefit from a decent education session on what antisemitism is and isn't.

[Red Beret]

Or this

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/resurgent-militant-gets-back-to-its-1980s-work-purging-liverpool-cfr9f57kc

Posting that link to my facebook.  I'll probably get dog's abuse because of all the Corbyn worshippers on my page.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

what antisemitism is and isn't.

Not really that clear these days.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Posting that link to my facebook.  I'll probably get dog's abuse because of all the Corbyn worshippers on my page.

you can do this

https://twitter.com/theredroar/status/1099618681930371074?s=21

Such a stupid press office, thought burgon and long Bailey were bad but the ‘he wasn’t talking about all Jews, just two’ line is so bad it’s actually funny

[Elmo!]

[Red Beret]

you can do this

https://twitter.com/theredroar/status/1099618681930371074?s=21

Such a stupid press office, thought burgon and long Bailey were bad but the ‘he wasn’t talking about all Jews, just two’ line is so bad it’s actually funny

I'll keep that link in reserve, cheers mate.

I've had it up to here trying to argue against Corbynistas on my page.  They're otherwise good people, and unlike many on here,  I'm not capable of making the arguments to them that the likes of Alan can.  My mental health has robbed me of the ability to retain this sort of information.  I can make the bullet points but I can never back them up, so especially in real time discussion I just end up losing my rag.  Links like this make it easier, even though I'll be accused of just swallowing MSM anti-Jeremy propaganda.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

to be fair if that non corbyn leader was McDonnell or long Bailey i doubt those numbers would hold for long

[Lush is the best medicine...]

I'll keep that link in reserve, cheers mate.

I've had it up to here trying to argue against Corbynistas on my page.  They're otherwise good people, and unlike many on here,  I'm not capable of making the arguments to them that the likes of Alan can.  My mental health has robbed me of the ability to retain this sort of information.  I can make the bullet points but I can never back them up, so especially in real time discussion I just end up losing my rag.  Links like this make it easier, even though I'll be accused of just swallowing MSM anti-Jeremy propaganda.

yes, the labour press office are now part of the MSM

And another one

https://twitter.com/snoozeinbrief/status/1099268923093123074?s=21

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

yes, the labour press office are now part of the MSM

What is this

MSM

[Alan_X]

Not really that clear these days.

??

[Dr. Beaker]

Just in relation to antisemitism. One of the principle avenues for dismissing the concerns of the Jewish community the past few years, or to portray it all as being a politically motivated smear campaign, has been through the 'alt-left' online circus. And politically motivated smears need attacking and debunking which then leads to further antisemitism from people filled with righteous indignation and who often would genuinely benefit from a decent education session on what antisemitism is and isn't.

Thanks for that Zeb, but I suppose what I really wanted was names.

By the way thanks for all your time effort and thought on these threads, I am sure I am not the only one who appreciates it.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

What is this

MSM

mainstream media, basically like the trump fans they don’t like it when the media do their job and report on their (many) bad points so they like to denigrate them and make out like they’re unfit for purpose so use the likes of infowars/breitbart/skwawkbox/canary/young turks/fox news

[Red Beret]

yes, the labour press office are now part of the MSM

And another one

https://twitter.com/snoozeinbrief/status/1099268923093123074?s=21

You know what they're like though - see only what they want to see!

[Zeb]

Not really that clear these days.

A lot of it would have been pretty recognisable a century ago. Mentioned it a couple of times before, but if you ever get chance to catch Marlon Solomon's Conspiracy Theory: A Lizard's Tale at a theatre or at your CLP or wherever then I thought that was an a really good way to introduce people to the sort of antisemitism that the left seems prone towards using. Seems not impractical to begin in places where the broadest possible consensus can be found within the British Jewish community.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

??

Well it isn't. Are you allowed to talk about Israeli?

[TepidT2O]

Well it isn't. Are you allowed to talk about Israeli?

Of course you are.  Criticism of the Israeli government is fine.

[classycarra]

??

If it's not abundantly clear by now, with all the resources and explanations shared in here, the likelihood is someone simply doesn't want to learn.

It's really really not difficult, no offence Sudden. Don't add your name to this weird mass move (on twitter) by poor regressive lefties to play the victim here, because reading is difficult, to downplay the seriousness of intolerance. You're better than that.

[jillcwhomever]

Or this

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/resurgent-militant-gets-back-to-its-1980s-work-purging-liverpool-cfr9f57kc

Wow, that article is incredibly depressing like going back in time to the 80's. 

[classycarra]

Well it isn't. Are you allowed to talk about Israeli?

If you encountered a woman in a niqab on the street or in their twitter pic, and had a go at her for the actions of ISIS or Saudi's rulers, you'd be hatefully generalising all muslims - suggesting that they have a responsibility to answer for the actions of all those who may have some shared religious or cultural experiences.

You're allowed to talk about Israel. You shouldn't be saying things like that c*nt Derek Hatton where "Jewish people with any sense of humanity need to start speaking out publicly against the ruthless murdering being carried out by Israel" cos it's antisemitic

[Mutton Geoff]

Of course you are.  Criticism of the Israeli government is fine.

The problem is that this works both ways, people can make a genuine criticism of the Israeli Government and then be accused of being Anti-Semetic as a form of immediately shutting down any discussion at all. So whether deliberately or not the difference between being Anti-Semetic and Anti-Zionist has been linked together far too closely and muddied the waters.

By the same token though people have used Anti-Semetic comments to attack supporters of the Israel Government and that has also created this problem and stops any discussion because of their vile interventions.

Then you get the vilest type who just attack anyone in the Jewish Community these are beyond the pale as far as i am concerned.

I would add one word of caution though i know it is great to link all these nutters to Corbyn partially because of some hashtag in twitter or Facebook but frankly the likes of JRM could do that, i am not saying a lot of them are not his supporters but it is dangerous to suggest they are all genuine .

This is a problem with the Social Media in general and not just dealing with AS.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

You know what they're like though - see only what they want to see!

indeed, a letter in the guardian (who according to loads of them hate him even though they endorsed him at the last election) from a crank set means more than the majority of British Jews, ‘the Jews who agree with me are the ones to listen to, not the Jews who don’t agree’

[Antoine Lavoisier]

In amongst your torrent of barely coherent posts, these parts are most instructive. But not about the people you’re criticising and calling liars, but of you.

You’re judging people who’ve been on the receiving end of intolerance by your own standards for how you’d behave. It reflects pretty terribly on your character and honesty, and the level you’d be willing to sink to, for the sake of a politician you like.

Who have I called a liar? I don’t remember that but if I have, I have misspoken and I apologise.

I am not judging anyone, I am trying to cut through the overgrowth of inflammatory language used by people who pass it on with added gusto without ever checking what it is or where it came from. Just like when people use the term “islamophobia”, it’s a nonsense term used over and over again and it not only detracts from meaningful debate, it aims to shut it down. 

Hateful little Corbynista’s on twitter, hurling disgraceful abuse at an MP on twitter doesn’t make Labour “institutionally anti-Semitic”.  And I am no fan of Corbyn, his sixth form level politics are woefully lacking in any concept of reality and the fact that he came to the position he is in is a reflection of the anguished desire of people to have an alternative to Tory rule and mainstream politics in general. They are now understanding he is not the messiah, he’s a very useless boy.

[Mutton Geoff]

If you encountered a woman in a niqab on the street or in their twitter pic, and had a go at her for the actions of ISIS or Saudi's rulers, you'd be hatefully generalising all muslims - suggesting that they have a responsibility to answer for the actions of all those who may have some shared religious or cultural experiences.

You're allowed to talk about Israel. You shouldn't be saying things like that c*nt Derek Hatton where "Jewish people with any sense of humanity need to start speaking out publicly against the ruthless murdering being carried out by Israel" cos it's antisemitic

Boris !

[TepidT2O]

The problem is that this works both ways, people can make a genuine criticism of the Israeli Government and then be accused of being Anti-Semetic as a form of immediately shutting down any discussion at all. So whether deliberately or not the difference between being Anti-Semetic and Anti-Zionist has been linked together far too closely and muddied the waters.

By the same token though people have used Anti-Semetic comments to attack supporters of the Israel Government and that has also created this problem and stops any discussion because of their vile interventions.

Then you get the vilest type who just attack anyone in the Jewish Community these are beyond the pale as far as i am concerned.

I would add one word of caution though i know it is great to link all these nutters to Corbyn partially because of some hashtag in twitter or Facebook but frankly the likes of JRM could do that, i am not saying a lot of them are not his supporters but it is dangerous to suggest they are all genuine .

This is a problem with the Social Media in general and not just dealing with AS.

I’m pretty sure that 95% are genuinely Corbyn fans though.  It’s easy to check twitter timelines, people have put in astonishing amounts of work being sick pupppets if that’s the case.  I just don’t see it myself, not in anything more than the very occasional instance.

For me (and maybe just for me, but I feel this quite strongly) being antizionist is pretty closely linked with antosemtism and the vast majority of the time they are the same thing.

Zionism is a symbolic empanciptaion of the Jews. A Jewish homeland after centuries of hideous racism and attempts to sloaughter the entire race.

Now for me, to deny the Jewish people a homeland risks very much having a different standard for Jewish people thannfor people of other faiths/ethnicities.  And in far far too many cases this is the line that is crossed. I’ve never known why

[classycarra]

I would add one word of caution though i know it is great to link all these nutters to Corbyn partially because of some hashtag in twitter or Facebook but frankly the likes of JRM could do that, i am not saying a lot of them are not his supporters but it is dangerous to suggest they are all genuine .

This is a problem with the Social Media in general and not just dealing with AS.

Sometimes it's best to go direct to the "nutter" himself

https://twitter.com/TheGolem_/status/1090995532603027456

and

https://twitter.com/snoozeinbrief/status/1099268923093123074?s=21