Author Topic: Racism in Football  (Read 150481 times)

Online Ray K

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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #1320 on: December 9, 2020, 04:05:44 pm »
Where is the reach?

Demba Ba's words. "You never say this white guy, you say this guy".

Now unless, there was an incident in the first 13 minutes where the ref referred to the other coaches as "this guy", Demba Ba is putting perceived societal biases on the shoulders of this 4th official.

How am I trolling?

Quote
The Romanian fourth official Sebastian Coltescu was identifying Basaksehir assistant Pierre Webo, the former Cameroon striker, to the referee when the alleged comment was made. Coltescu was speaking Romanian, with TV footage showing him saying: “The black one over there. Go and check who he is. The black one over there, it's not possible to act like that,” after Webo had vehemently protested against a refereeing decision.
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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #1321 on: December 9, 2020, 04:10:21 pm »
The Romanian fourth official Sebastian Coltescu was identifying Basaksehir assistant Pierre Webo, the former Cameroon striker, to the referee when the alleged comment was made. Coltescu was speaking Romanian, with TV footage showing him saying: “The black one over there. Go and check who he is. The black one over there, it's not possible to act like that,” after Webo had vehemently protested against a refereeing decision.

If he was speaking Romanian then negru is apparently the word for black.

However if he was speaking Romanian I’m not sure how Ba would have known what he was saying in the wider context (as in “the black guy”).

Offline Clayton Bigsby

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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #1322 on: December 9, 2020, 04:11:09 pm »


Doesn't take away from my point about Demba Ba

Offline DangerScouse

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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #1323 on: December 9, 2020, 04:11:13 pm »
That doesn't disprove what I wrote

English isn't his first language so it may be a case of him mixing up tenses.

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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #1324 on: December 9, 2020, 04:12:17 pm »
If he was speaking Romanian then negru is apparently the word for black.

However if he was speaking Romanian I’m not sure how Ba would have known what he was saying in the wider context (as in “the black guy”).

he knew the context because the official translated it word for word after being confronted. Which is why Ba asked what he asked

Offline Clayton Bigsby

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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #1325 on: December 9, 2020, 04:12:22 pm »
If he was speaking Romanian then negru is apparently the word for black.

However if he was speaking Romanian I’m not sure how Ba would have known what he was saying in the wider context (as in “the black guy”).

It would have been explained to him and the explanation was not good enough
« Last Edit: December 9, 2020, 04:14:22 pm by Clayton Bigsby »

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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #1326 on: December 9, 2020, 04:15:20 pm »
It would have been explained to him and the explanation was not good enough

Well more the explanation confirmed what he said was wrong, rather than it not being good enough.

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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #1327 on: December 9, 2020, 04:17:17 pm »
Well more the explanation confirmed what he said was wrong, rather than it not being good enough.

Fair enough

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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #1328 on: December 9, 2020, 04:34:56 pm »
What’s wrong with a skin colour?


What’s the difference compared to saying «the one with the brown hair», «the tall guy». It’s just a physical description.

I don’t get it as long as it’s not used in a negative way.

Is «black» in itself a negative word?

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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #1329 on: December 9, 2020, 04:36:58 pm »
What’s wrong with a skin colour?


What’s the difference compared to saying «the one with the brown hair», «the tall guy». It’s just a physical description.

I don’t get it as long as it’s not used in a negative way.

We've literally spent number of pages discussing this. If you don't get it, you may want to read some of the things people have said on here who come from various walks of life.


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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #1330 on: December 9, 2020, 04:40:03 pm »
I read this by John Barnes:

Why is the romanian word for black racist... is the english word for black.... BLACK ... racist ? If not, why is the romanian word for bkack racist?

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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #1331 on: December 9, 2020, 04:41:22 pm »
I read this by John Barnes:

Why is the romanian word for black racist... is the english word for black.... BLACK ... racist ? If not, why is the romanian word for bkack racist?

John Barnes doesn't speak for all black people on this planet. There are several people ono this very thread who are black and have shared their views and how they feel on the matter.


John barnes ironically missing the point too.

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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #1332 on: December 9, 2020, 04:43:05 pm »
John Barnes doesn't speak for all black people on this planet. There are several people ono this very thread who are black and have shared their views and how they feel on the matter.


John barnes ironically missing the point too.

I think this just proves it's a slightly more nuanced debate than right or wrong.  Personally, I think the official shouldn't have used that language and I can see why people are upset about it, but I can also see why others aren't so willing to condemn him for it.
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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #1333 on: December 9, 2020, 04:44:23 pm »
I think this just proves it's a slightly more nuanced debate than right or wrong.  Personally, I think the official shouldn't have used that language and I can see why people are upset about it, but I can also see why others aren't so willing to condemn him for it.

I agree. I don't personally care if it was ''an overreaction'', if this is what needs to happen in order for UEFA to actually start doing more and reacting accordingly when there are bigger racial incidents [I'm looking at you Zenit ST Petersburg fans, as an example], then so be it.

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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #1334 on: December 9, 2020, 04:48:19 pm »
I dont understand whats racist and what terms are acceptable anymore.


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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #1335 on: December 9, 2020, 04:49:42 pm »
I think I’ll stay clear of any discussion when it comes to skin colour, gender pronouns, religion etc etc.

It has just become so explosive to talk about and so confusing.

I always thought racism had to do with bad intentions towards a certain ethnical group of people.


« Last Edit: December 9, 2020, 04:51:39 pm by Raaphael »

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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #1336 on: December 9, 2020, 04:53:37 pm »
I think I’ll stay clear of any discussion when it comes to skin colour, gender pronouns, religion etc etc.

It has just become so explosive to talk about and so confusing.

I always thought racism had to do with bad intentions towards a certain ethnical group of people.

You can make racist comments without knowing and without having bad intentions. It's called being ignorant and oblivious.
« Last Edit: December 9, 2020, 04:55:36 pm by deFacto please, you bastards »

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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #1337 on: December 9, 2020, 04:59:11 pm »
But isn’t it quite racist the other way when the English language is used to define for instance what’s ok to say in Uruguay( reference Cavani, Suarez(whos grandfather I believe is black)?

I just find that very strange in a historical sense. Britain being a colonial power and yet again things are defined from the perspective of the English language and culture.
« Last Edit: December 9, 2020, 05:01:17 pm by Raaphael »

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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #1338 on: December 9, 2020, 05:07:18 pm »
Just out of interest, does anybody know if the police (in any country) are still inclined, allowed or even still in the habit of using racial "identifiers" amongst themselves....say when they're on the hunt for a person, and all they've got is an eye-witness description? You know the usual way they go for things like height, build, gender, hair-colour, clothing etc....??

I'm not saying that if they still do, it's any kind of dispensation.....but I'm imagining scenarios where putting a hand on somebody is important, and there's no polite thought given to what they share with their fellow hunters in terms of ANY relevant identifiers which could assist that cause.

There's still an appropriate way to describe skin colour off course, but I'm talking about just how high up the list it appears as a "primary" descriptor....especially when the situation is deemed to be an emergency. Also, because a felon on the run can easily change his/her clothes, vehicle, hair etc....it would be mighty tempting to hone in on something that can't easily be changed. Their "whiteness" for example? Which would at least narrow down their search....and in some communities....might do so by about 50%.

I guess I'm asking at what point (and for whom) does all sensitivity and propriety just get abandoned and the attitude:

"We're not fucking about here..."

...kick in, and it becomes ok to use ANYTHING which can act as a valid descriptor? Leaving offence or hurt feelings and such-like to be dealt with only once the primary objective is attained?
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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #1339 on: December 9, 2020, 05:11:03 pm »
I agree. I don't personally care if it was ''an overreaction'', if this is what needs to happen in order for UEFA to actually start doing more and reacting accordingly when there are bigger racial incidents [I'm looking at you Zenit ST Petersburg fans, as an example], then so be it.

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I noticed that you don't care, all you want is a scapegoat.
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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #1340 on: December 9, 2020, 05:12:29 pm »
Just out of interest, does anybody know if the police

snip

I think describing someone where the more details the better matter, as in when police are hunting for a suspect, then skin colour is 100% valid and should be used.

British police have IC codes don't they?

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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #1341 on: December 9, 2020, 05:13:23 pm »
I noticed that you don't care, all you want is a scapegoat.

As per usual you're talking out of your backside.  I've clearly explained my point numerous times, in fact I've said that the referee himself after this doesn't become a racist just because of the comment. I've explained to why, and why it's still wrong.

So me looking for a scapegoat is utter rubbish and nonsense.
« Last Edit: December 9, 2020, 05:17:58 pm by deFacto please, you bastards »

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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #1342 on: December 9, 2020, 05:13:33 pm »
British police have IC codes don't they?

From my extensive research (watching The Bill when I was 12), yes.

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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #1343 on: December 9, 2020, 05:13:44 pm »
Just out of interest, does anybody know if the police (in any country) are still inclined, allowed or even still in the habit of using racial "identifiers" amongst themselves....say when they're on the hunt for a person, and all they've got is an eye-witness description? You know the usual way they go for things like height, build, gender, hair-colour, clothing etc....??

I'm not saying that if they still do, it's any kind of dispensation.....but I'm imagining scenarios where putting a hand on somebody is important, and there's no polite thought given to what they share with their fellow hunters in terms of ANY relevant identifiers which could assist that cause.

There's still an appropriate way to describe skin colour off course, but I'm talking about just how high up the list it appears as a "primary" descriptor....especially when the situation is deemed to be an emergency. Also, because a felon on the run can easily change his/her clothes, vehicle, hair etc....it would be mighty tempting to hone in on something that can't easily be changed. Their "whiteness" for example? Which would at least narrow down their search....and in some communities....might do so by about 50%.

I guess I'm asking at what point (and for whom) does all sensitivity and propriety just get abandoned and the attitude:

"We're not fucking about here..."

...kick in, and it becomes ok to use ANYTHING which can act as a valid descriptor? Leaving offence or hurt feelings and such-like to be dealt with only once the primary objective is attained?

American Police use racial identifiers.

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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #1344 on: December 9, 2020, 05:14:12 pm »
Just out of interest, does anybody know if the police (in any country) are still inclined, allowed or even still in the habit of using racial "identifiers" amongst themselves....say when they're on the hunt for a person, and all they've got is an eye-witness description? You know the usual way they go for things like height, build, gender, hair-colour, clothing etc....??
Sure they do. IC1 for white European, IC3 for Black, IC5 for East Asian etc.
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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #1345 on: December 9, 2020, 05:16:24 pm »
But isn’t it quite racist the other way when the English language is used to define for instance what’s ok to say in Uruguay( reference Cavani, Suarez(whos grandfather I believe is black)?

I just find that very strange in a historical sense. Britain being a colonial power and yet again things are defined from the perspective of the English language and culture.

Having a family member who is black, doesn't make you not racist or not prone to racist views or comments. Aside from that, what you do in your native country in your mother tongue isn't applicable in different country in a different language. This is where awareness comes from. Suarez and cavani weren't playing in uruguay or a Latin country.

As far as this incident goes, regardless of the country the match is being played in, all officials must know how to speak English for one. And second, they need to be aware that they're dealing with players with various backgrounds. Again, awareness.


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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #1346 on: December 9, 2020, 05:17:29 pm »
Listening to Ba, I don’t think it’s even the Romanian word for black that the teams were angry about, it was that skin colour was used to describe someone.


Yeah that's what he was pissed off about.
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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #1347 on: December 9, 2020, 05:18:36 pm »
I agree with that, but do you think it would be justified to abandon a game if a referee would refer to someone as "the black guy"?
That is, if we ignore the whole language barrier issue

The thing is, this shit has reached a whole other level than just isolated incidents and ' is this okay for this'.

People are sick and fucking tired of the same shit. I was called a dirty black c*** for parking my car the other day... PARKING MY FUCKING CAR. This goes back so far but as a black man myself, enough is fucking enough. It's been going on for so long that sadly you are in a way forced to accept that it's going to happen.

It's so fucking disheartening to hear the same shit over and over and over. People are tired of being reminded of the fact they are black with stereotypes all the time, positive or negative. Living with shit like being followed by security if you walk into a shop, being treated differently in various social situations etc gets exhaustinggggg over years and it gets to a point where you wont take it any more. I've had grown men say to me as a child in my football games I should be on the wing because i'll be quick with no prior knowledge of my ability, I didn't get it at the time as I was a kid but that is not okay, i've got older and realised how many incidents of this shit occurred throughout my life and heard stories of family and friends who've suffered the same and we're expected to react how people tell us to, to react to things how people say, to be okay with something because 'this black person isn't offended soooo...'.

To a lot of people it's an overreaction because they are looking at the wrong aspects and aren't understanding what is meant by Ba. It's all good and well people saying 'he called him what he is' but you wouldn't use descriptive words for most groups in that situation, I wont name specific groups because I am sensitive to offending anyone from any specific group but in terms of things you could observe and use to describe someone, many things are deemed off limits and wont be used, but in cases like this its different.

I'm not suprised they walked. It doesn't happen for a lot of others, i'm not saying NO others as that isn't reflective of reality but for many people, they don't have to experience it a lot. When people are treated differently they are likely to have greivances
« Last Edit: December 9, 2020, 05:25:56 pm by RyanBabel19 »

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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #1348 on: December 9, 2020, 05:18:54 pm »
One of the main issues with this incident is how it'll only serve to increase the divisions in the populace and hinder proper discourse into racism in society.

Right-wingers will think this is just libs getting hot under the collar about a non-issue and will entrench their beliefs that racism is largely non-existent (or at least over-exaggerated by the liberal elite).

Left-wingers will think that right-wingers don't take the issue seriously enough.

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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #1349 on: December 9, 2020, 05:25:14 pm »
The thing is, this shit has reached a whole other level than just isolated incidents and ' is this okay for this'.

People are sick and fucking tired of the same shit. I was called a dirty black c*** for parking my car the other day... PARKING MY FUCKING CAR. This goes back so far but as a black man myself, enough is fucking enough. It's been going on for so long that sadly you are in a way forced to accept that it's going to happen.

It's so fucking disheartening to hear the same shit over and over and over. People are tired of being reminded of the fact they are black with stereotypes all the time, positive or negative. Living with shit like being followed by security if you walk into a shop, being treated differently in various social situations etc gets exhaustinggggg over years and it gets to a point where you wont take it any more. I've had grown men say to me as a child in my football games I should be on the wing because i'll be quick with no prior knowledge of my ability, I didn't get it at the time as I was a kid but that is not okay, i've got older and realised how many incidents of this shit occurred throughout my life and heard stories of family and friends who've suffered the same and we're expected to react how people tell us to, to react to things how people say, to be okay with something because 'this black person isn't offended soooo...'.

To a lot of people it's an overreaction because they are looking at the wrong aspects and aren't understanding what is meant by Ba. It's all good and well people saying 'he called him what he is' but you wouldn't use descriptive words for most groups in that situation, I wont name specific groups because I am sensitive to offending anyone from any specific group but in terms of things you could observe and use to describe someone, many things are deemed off limits and wont be used, but in cases like this its different.

I'm not suprised they walked

One of the most common things I've seen happen earlier in life at a work place at the time. It was frustrating for me, let alone you for instance.

Again well said.

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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #1350 on: December 9, 2020, 05:29:23 pm »
The thing is, this shit has reached a whole other level than just isolated incidents and ' is this okay for this'.

People are sick and fucking tired of the same shit. I was called a dirty black c*** for parking my car the other day... PARKING MY FUCKING CAR. This goes back so far but as a black man myself, enough is fucking enough. It's been going on for so long that sadly you are in a way forced to accept that it's going to happen.

It's so fucking disheartening to hear the same shit over and over and over. People are tired of being reminded of the fact they are black with stereotypes all the time, positive or negative. Living with shit like being followed by security if you walk into a shop, being treated differently in various social situations etc gets exhaustinggggg over years and it gets to a point where you wont take it any more. I've had grown men say to me as a child in my football games I should be on the wing because i'll be quick with no prior knowledge of my ability, I didn't get it at the time as I was a kid but that is not okay, i've got older and realised how many incidents of this shit occurred throughout my life and heard stories of family and friends who've suffered the same and we're expected to react how people tell us to, to react to things how people say, to be okay with something because 'this black person isn't offended soooo...'.

To a lot of people it's an overreaction because they are looking at the wrong aspects and aren't understanding what is meant by Ba. It's all good and well people saying 'he called him what he is' but you wouldn't use descriptive words for most groups in that situation, I wont name specific groups because I am sensitive to offending anyone from any specific group but in terms of things you could observe and use to describe someone, many things are deemed off limits and wont be used, but in cases like this its different.

I'm not suprised they walked. It doesn't happen for a lot of others, i'm not saying NO others as that isn't reflective of reality but for many people, they don't have to experience it a lot. When people are treated differently they are likely to have greivances

How you didn't just punch the twat I find impressive to be honest. For what its worth, I entirely agree and I have been saying for ages for players to walk if they suffer any racist abuse.
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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #1351 on: December 9, 2020, 05:31:58 pm »
https://twitter.com/Emishor

This Romanian football jounalist is claiming the officials were called Gypsies, and basically just throws in a lot more which doesn't look good on either side. Going to be messy this if all these claims go into the official report.
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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #1352 on: December 9, 2020, 05:36:46 pm »
But isn’t it quite racist the other way when the English language is used to define for instance what’s ok to say in Uruguay( reference Cavani, Suarez(whos grandfather I believe is black)?

I just find that very strange in a historical sense. Britain being a colonial power and yet again things are defined from the perspective of the English language and culture.

The FA's conclusion in the Suarez case was that whilst they accepted that the phrase he claimed to have used could be used as a term of endearment they didn't believe him when he was saying that that was how he meant it. The linguistic evidence was also clear that as well as being used as a term of endearment the phrase could also be used as a term of abuse. The FA found that the latter was likely the case. Their essential conclusion on that issue was that what he had said, in the way and context he said it, would not have been ok from a Uruguayan/South American perspective either. 

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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #1353 on: December 9, 2020, 06:52:38 pm »
The thing is, this shit has reached a whole other level than just isolated incidents and ' is this okay for this'.

People are sick and fucking tired of the same shit. I was called a dirty black c*** for parking my car the other day... PARKING MY FUCKING CAR. This goes back so far but as a black man myself, enough is fucking enough. It's been going on for so long that sadly you are in a way forced to accept that it's going to happen.

It's so fucking disheartening to hear the same shit over and over and over. People are tired of being reminded of the fact they are black with stereotypes all the time, positive or negative. Living with shit like being followed by security if you walk into a shop, being treated differently in various social situations etc gets exhaustinggggg over years and it gets to a point where you wont take it any more. I've had grown men say to me as a child in my football games I should be on the wing because i'll be quick with no prior knowledge of my ability, I didn't get it at the time as I was a kid but that is not okay, i've got older and realised how many incidents of this shit occurred throughout my life and heard stories of family and friends who've suffered the same and we're expected to react how people tell us to, to react to things how people say, to be okay with something because 'this black person isn't offended soooo...'.

To a lot of people it's an overreaction because they are looking at the wrong aspects and aren't understanding what is meant by Ba. It's all good and well people saying 'he called him what he is' but you wouldn't use descriptive words for most groups in that situation, I wont name specific groups because I am sensitive to offending anyone from any specific group but in terms of things you could observe and use to describe someone, many things are deemed off limits and wont be used, but in cases like this its different.

I'm not suprised they walked. It doesn't happen for a lot of others, i'm not saying NO others as that isn't reflective of reality but for many people, they don't have to experience it a lot. When people are treated differently they are likely to have greivances

Again - brilliant post
I can't imagine being in your shoes - all I can do as a white middle aged man is listen. Hope that people of my race listen and are guided and help to overcome racism and deep ingrained prejudices. We cannot be the lead on this - we have to listen, listen some more and keep listening. Also we need a lot more diversity in all job roles. But when people have been attacked for years because of the color of their skin - seriously I have no words.

I'm struggling to write something as powerful as what you have written - but I can't.

Offline josh101

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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #1354 on: December 9, 2020, 07:00:45 pm »
https://twitter.com/Emishor

This Romanian football jounalist is claiming the officials were called Gypsies, and basically just throws in a lot more which doesn't look good on either side. Going to be messy this if all these claims go into the official report.

Yup. Reports are coming out that Webo had been referring to the referee team as Gypsies throughout the first 15 minutes. To call attention to that, the 4th official then said it was "the black one".

If this comes out to be a true what an awful look for the coach. Is being racist himself, then deflects from that by calling the fourth official racist when he wasn't being.

Offline darragh85

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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #1355 on: December 9, 2020, 08:39:23 pm »
if he was calling the officials that then there is recording of it ? with no crowd it should have been pretty easy to pick that up if he was saying it constantly.

reminds me of the time when Mihajlovic racially abused Vieira and he claimed Vieira called him that.

Offline NealFrom25Yards

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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #1356 on: December 9, 2020, 10:09:36 pm »
if he was calling the officials that then there is recording of it ? with no crowd it should have been pretty easy to pick that up if he was saying it constantly.

Saw the audio on Twitter. There's also an 8 minute video from RMC, with French subtitles for the audible moments, with multiple gypsy references.

Will try to find both and edit.

Edit - here's the first one, posted on YouTube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlH665KQScY

Offline Dave McCoy

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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #1357 on: December 9, 2020, 10:13:43 pm »
Saw the audio on Twitter. There's also an 8 minute video from RMC, with French subtitles for the audible moments, with multiple gypsy references.

Will try to find both and edit.

Edit - here's the first one, posted on YouTube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlH665KQScY

Is this a joke?

Offline Clayton Bigsby

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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #1358 on: December 9, 2020, 10:35:41 pm »
Saw the audio on Twitter. There's also an 8 minute video from RMC, with French subtitles for the audible moments, with multiple gypsy references.

Will try to find both and edit.

Edit - here's the first one, posted on YouTube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlH665KQScY

This is the equivalent of a retraction to a front page headline on page 34 of the paper. Even if it is true it's too late in the court of public opinion

Offline Bobsackamano

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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #1359 on: December 9, 2020, 10:43:44 pm »
This is the equivalent of a retraction to a front page headline on page 34 of the paper. Even if it is true it's too late in the court of public opinion

If this is true the right wing media are going to go to town over this. To be fair i do feel too many people make judgements on all kinds of things these days too quickly, so maybe a few of the pitchfork carriers can be less hasty next time.

Then again maybe this audio is a pile of shite. Who the fuck knows these days!